Why mankind will always be stuck to Earth and visiting aliens are impossible...

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Any equation showing How thrust decreases with altitude?

When I jump, Im beating the force of gravity.

No, you're not beating the force of gravity. The only way gravity would be beaten is by anti-gravity. That is theoretical and has not been invented.

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If I had a way to continuosly jump even mid air, I would escape the atmosphere easily.

No, you would reach the Karman "line", lack any possibility to move around in space and simply fall back to Earth due to gravity.

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Gravity, indeed, is one of the weakest forces in the universe.

:D Ever heard of a black hole?

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The reason it is so important in astrophysics is simple, its range is infinite, and the effect of massive objects.

This is not even the start of an explanation. These are just words, telling nothing.

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And didnt you agree that any object that managed to reach escape velocity would escape gravity forever?

No, I didn't agree because it's complete bullshit. "Escape gravity forever"?? :D Whole galaxies are caught up in gravity but your average flimsy Death Star is somehow stronger than nature. Right.

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Im also curious on what do you think about man made objects in space such as satellites or the ISS.

There are no man-made objects in space and there will never be. See the OP of this very topic.

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And, yeah, a deceleration is technically an acceleration whose vector is opposite to the velocity vector. Its still an acceleration, since acceleration is defined as dv/dt (how does velocity changes in a infinitelly small amount of time)
Then you're changing your perspective and suddenly look in the opposite direction.

Deceleration in vector direction x is simply - dvx/dt
You move your goalpost, suddenly take x as negative and call the dv/dt positive.
I much prefer the sharpest criticism of a single intelligent man to the thoughtless approval of the masses - Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)

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Conker

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And didnt you agree that any object that managed to reach escape velocity would escape gravity forever? It is perfectly possible to do so while in the atmosphere

Nonsense.

A quick look at the alleged exhaust velocities of NASA's fraud-rockets & an understanding of Newton 3 are all it takes to kill the idea of any of them achieving 'escape velocity' off completely.

'Equal & Opposite', remember?

I didnt say "any current vehicle", and in fact, I dont know. Its irrelevant to my point. 40,270 km/h is the escape velocity of Earth. Of course, one doesnt need to go that fast to reach orbit, or even travel to another planet in a brachystochrone fashion. We are just considering this specific point of astrophysics, and then we will move on.


When I jump, Im beating the force of gravity.

No, you're not beating the force of gravity. The only way gravity would be beaten is by anti-gravity. That is theoretical and has not been invented.

When I jump, I produce a force. This force is equivalent to an acceleration. Since this acceleration is higher than gravity's, I lift off. If i push the floor with less than 9.8N/kg I wont lift off. Of course, since Im now midair, I cannot continue this force, since I dont have thrusters or wings, so gravity takes over the instant I stop having impulse (wikipedia is your friend), and starts accelerating me downwards, eventually making me stop my trajectory, and falling downwards. The moment I will stop is dependent on the initial speed given by the jumping impulse, and indeed, if I had muscles able to make me jump faster than 40,270 km/h, it is possible (if I manage to get to the end of the atmosphere so I am at at least that speed), Earth's gravitatorial attraction wont ever manage to accelerate me back to Earth. Im on a special type of orbit called a escape orbit, or hyperbolic orbit, using the conics model used for most 2-body orbits.

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If I had a way to continuosly jump even mid air, I would escape the atmosphere easily.

No, you would reach the Karman "line", lack any possibility to move around in space and simply fall back to Earth due to gravity.
Sorry, I wasnt clear enough. I meant that if I had a way to generate a force by jumping whether Im on the floor, or in space, or in air. I understand that I didnt word this clear enough, and I apologize.

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Gravity, indeed, is one of the weakest forces in the universe.

:D Ever heard of a black hole?
The amount of mass required to create a black hole is absudly high. Compare the strengths of diferent forces at nanoscopic scale (protons and newtons), relative to the electromagnetic force.
Gravitation   10−36
Weak force   10−7
Electromagnetic   1
Strong force   20

Of all of them, only the electromagnetic is rangeless just as gravitation, which is why they are the two main forces of interaction in macroscopic physics.

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The reason it is so important in astrophysics is simple, its range is infinite, and the effect of massive objects.

This is not even the start of an explanation. These are just words, telling nothing.
Here are the ranges of the four fundamental interactions http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/forces/funfor.html.
As you can see, gravity is 6x10-39 times the strength of the strong force.

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And didnt you agree that any object that managed to reach escape velocity would escape gravity forever?

No, I didn't agree because it's complete bullshit. "Escape gravity forever"?? :D Whole galaxies are caught up in gravity but your average flimsy Death Star is somehow stronger than nature. Right.

Again, I apologise, I think my wording wasnt quite exact there. When I said "escape gravity forever", I would rather say "the gravitational pull of earth will never manage to deccelerate me to a stop, and back. The proof is simple, mathematical, and Newton understood it quite well, and explained such concepts of orbits and escape trajectories with his mental Newton's cannonball experiments.

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Im also curious on what do you think about man made objects in space such as satellites or the ISS.

There are no man-made objects in space and there will never be. See the OP of this very topic.
Then what is it we observe when we point directional antennae to specific moving points in the sky to receive a signal, or send it?
That's one of many examples of satellite connections we can easily prove.

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And, yeah, a deceleration is technically an acceleration whose vector is opposite to the velocity vector. Its still an acceleration, since acceleration is defined as dv/dt (how does velocity changes in a infinitelly small amount of time)
Then you're changing your perspective and suddenly look in the opposite direction.

Deceleration in vector direction x is simply - dvx/dt
You move your goalpost, suddenly take x as negative and call the dv/dt positive.

Acceleration is not a scalar, but a vector. Vectors can't have negative magnitude. We call deceleration to a special kind of acceleration whose vector happens to point opposite to the velocity vector. None of them are negative.
This is not a joke society.
Quote from: OpenedEyes
You shouldn't be allowed to talk on a free discussion forum.

Oh yes u beat gravity. When u jump u're applying to your body a force greater than gravity. Airplanes to fly have to produce at least lift equal to gravity.

In your model gravity decreases with distance?

Still waiting for proper math to back up your claims

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Conker

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Oh yes u beat gravity. When u jump u're applying to your body a force greater than gravity. Airplanes to fly have to produce at least lift equal to gravity.

In your model gravity decreases with distance?

Still waiting for proper math to back up your claims

What about the inverse square law?
This is not a joke society.
Quote from: OpenedEyes
You shouldn't be allowed to talk on a free discussion forum.

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Papa Legba

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We are just considering this specific point of astrophysics, and then we will move on.

No; you will move nowhere.

Because the already-dubious maximum exhaust velocity of NASA's fraud rockets is allegedly 9,000+mph.

And Newton's 3rd says something about an 'Equal & Opposite Reaction', as I recall?

Thus, if the Action of a rocket's exhaust is only travelling at 9000mph max, how can the Reaction exceed that velocity, no matter whether the rocket works by pushing on the medium through which it moves (correct) or by 'pushing on itself' (lol!)?

No engine is over 100% efficient; that idea belongs in Science-Fiction, not Science-Fact.

Or have NASA invented a Free-Energy machine, perhaps?

Of course, we have already gone over this, months ago; I beat the tar out of you then, and will do so again should you persist in promulgating such nonsense.

Toodle-pip, Losers!
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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Conker

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We are just considering this specific point of astrophysics, and then we will move on.

No; you will move nowhere.
Yes, master. I will moderate my speech to conform to your likings.

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Because the already-dubious maximum exhaust velocity of NASA's fraud rockets is allegedly 9,000+mph.

And Newton's 3rd says something about an 'Equal & Opposite Reaction', as I recall?

Thus, if the Action of a rocket's exhaust is only travelling at 9000mph max, how can the Reaction exceed that velocity, no matter whether the rocket works by pushing on the medium through which it moves (correct) or by 'pushing on itself' (lol!)?

Equal and opposite force, not equal and opposite velocity. Momentum depends on mass. Push on a gazillion small objects with enough force to make them go fast, and you will accelerate. And, yes, an object can go much faster than its reaction speed, because the only important thing is the relative speed between both objects, and while acording to the rocket the exhaust is going down, in fact it is going in the same direction of the rocket (in a vacuum), just slower. Simply change the POV to the rocket.

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No engine is over 100% efficient; that idea belongs in Science-Fiction, not Science-Fact.
No one claimed that, we werent even discussing engines, just mathematical concepts such as escape velocity, not even if they were feasible. Stop derailing.

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Or have NASA invented a Free-Energy machine, perhaps?

Of course, we have already gone over this, months ago; I beat the tar out of you then, and will do so again should you persist in promulgating such nonsense.

Toodle-pip, Losers!
Cmon, your alt is much more fun. Go back to it.
This is not a joke society.
Quote from: OpenedEyes
You shouldn't be allowed to talk on a free discussion forum.

The exit speed of the gasses is relative to rocket

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Papa Legba

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Equal and opposite force, not equal and opposite velocity. Momentum depends on mass. Push on a gazillion small objects with enough force to make them go fast, and you will accelerate. And, yes, an object can go much faster than its reaction speed, because the only important thing is the relative speed between both objects, and while acording to the rocket the exhaust is going down, in fact it is going in the same direction of the rocket (in a vacuum), just slower. Simply change the POV to the rocket.

Total double-talk bullshit from start to finish.

Not a single word of that makes sense.

But you don't care, do you?

It contained plenty of 'science-like jargon' so it'll fool the average mug...

So job done I guess?

Like I said; we already did this & you got your ass handed to you.

But then a new mod turned up out of the blue, pretending to be a 'missile engineer', locked the thread & flushed it down the memory-hole.

Disgusting, really...
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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Conker

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Equal and opposite force, not equal and opposite velocity. Momentum depends on mass. Push on a gazillion small objects with enough force to make them go fast, and you will accelerate. And, yes, an object can go much faster than its reaction speed, because the only important thing is the relative speed between both objects, and while acording to the rocket the exhaust is going down, in fact it is going in the same direction of the rocket (in a vacuum), just slower. Simply change the POV to the rocket.

Total double-talk bullshit from start to finish.

Not a single word of that makes sense.

But you don't care, do you?

It contained plenty of 'science-like jargon' so it'll fool the average mug...

So job done I guess?

Like I said; we already did this & you got your ass handed to you.

But then a new mod turned up out of the blue, pretending to be a 'missile engineer', locked the thread & flushed it down the memory-hole.

Disgusting, really...

Please, Papa, tell me EXACTLY what wasnt true, and why, giving a specific source for every point you consider to be wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impulse_(physics)

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Equal and opposite force, not equal and opposite velocity.

Newton's Third law:   When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the first body.

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Momentum depends on mass.

p =m*vvector

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Push on a gazillion small objects with enough force to make them go fast, and you will accelerate.
The equation above, plus the law of conservation of momentum, meaning that any system that is not affected by external forces will conserve momentum, is more than enough to prove this. I can derive this result to you if it is of importance, but please specifically tell any points you disagree, why, and source your claims.

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And, yes, an object can go much faster than its reaction speed, because the only important thing is the relative speed between both objects, and while acording to the rocket the exhaust is going down, in fact it is going in the same direction of the rocket (in a vacuum), just slower. Simply change the POV to the rocket.
Take a system in orbit that's ejecting mass, gaining speed, and take the system as your reference point. This will not be an inertial reference frame, and you will observe the ejected mass getting away from the system . Now switch the frame to the orbited body. BOTH the system and the mass are going the same direction (unless you really overdo your prograde burn). The diference is that the ejected mass is travelling at a slower (or faster, depending on whether the burn is prograde or retrograde) speed than the system's.
This is not a joke society.
Quote from: OpenedEyes
You shouldn't be allowed to talk on a free discussion forum.

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Papa Legba

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Please, Papa, tell me EXACTLY what wasnt true

All of it.

But I've already wasted enough time debating Lies with Liars.

I'll just leave this for people to read so they can see how completely full of shit you are:

And, yes, an object can go much faster than its reaction speed, because the only important thing is the relative speed between both objects, and while acording to the rocket the exhaust is going down, in fact it is going in the same direction of the rocket (in a vacuum), just slower. Simply change the POV to the rocket.

Lewis Carroll himself couldn't have done better.

Toodle-pip, Liar!
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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TheEarthIsASphere.

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All of it.

[citation needed]
Quā ratiōne nōn redimus ad senectēs societātēs sapientium patrum? Quā ratiōne relinquimus eārum sapientiam?

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Papa Legba

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Nah.

Only an idiot would need a citation to help them realise this is complete bullshit:

And, yes, an object can go much faster than its reaction speed, because the only important thing is the relative speed between both objects, and while acording to the rocket the exhaust is going down, in fact it is going in the same direction of the rocket (in a vacuum), just slower. Simply change the POV to the rocket.

And I don't care what idiots think anyway.

The Newtonian definition of a Force is: 'A push or pull on an object as a result of its interaction with another object'.

So, if Object One is pushing or pulling on Object Two at the speed of 9,000 mph, there is no way that Object two can exceed that speed.

It's as simple as that.

If you claim otherwise you are a Liar...

That, too, is a simple thing to see.

Toodle-pip, Loser!

I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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TheEarthIsASphere.

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Rockets don't push against the atmosphere The explosions created in the combustion chamber when the booster fuel pushes gases, like exhaust, out the back at incredibly high speeds. Other gases press against the top of the combustion chamber. This unbalanced force created by the combustion of fuel pushes the rocket upwards into space.

In fact, rockets work better in vacuum of space, as there is no air is there to slow them down due to friction.

Toodle-pip, professional liar, Papa Legboar!
Quā ratiōne nōn redimus ad senectēs societātēs sapientium patrum? Quā ratiōne relinquimus eārum sapientiam?

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Papa Legba

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LULZ!!!

Hi, frenat!

Your youtube channel is a hoot btw; thanks for the little playlist showing the subjects you're paid to Troll...

Very handy, that!

Plus, the fact that the only video you personally uploaded is of a man dressed as a fairy mincing around to gaylord music is Comedy Gold extra...

Fucking Weirdo!
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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TheEarthIsASphere.

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LULZ!!!

Hi, frenat!

Your youtube channel is a hoot btw; thanks for the little playlist showing the subjects you're paid to Troll...

Very handy, that!

Plus, the fact that the only video you personally uploaded is of a man dressed as a fairy mincing around to gaylord music is Comedy Gold extra...

Fucking Weirdo!

Uh, was this supposed to be a PM to frenat?
Quā ratiōne nōn redimus ad senectēs societātēs sapientium patrum? Quā ratiōne relinquimus eārum sapientiam?

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Son of Orospu

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This is not even English, let alone a physical explanation.
You are wrong and said something dumb.  Is that clear English for you?: 

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Papa Legba

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Uh, was this supposed to be a PM to frenat?

Oh, sorry; you just sounded exactly like him for a moment there...

Whereas with what you wrote below, you sound just like Conker:

The explosions created in the combustion chamber when the booster fuel pushes gases, like exhaust, out the back at incredibly high speeds. Other gases press against the top of the combustion chamber. This unbalanced force created by the combustion of fuel pushes the rocket upwards into space

But, as Conker sounds exactly like frenat anyway, we find ourselves right back where we started...

Oh, what Fun & Games!
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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TheEarthIsASphere.

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Uh, was this supposed to be a PM to frenat?

Oh, sorry; you just sounded exactly like him for a moment there...

Whereas with what you wrote below, you sound just like Conker:

The explosions created in the combustion chamber when the booster fuel pushes gases, like exhaust, out the back at incredibly high speeds. Other gases press against the top of the combustion chamber. This unbalanced force created by the combustion of fuel pushes the rocket upwards into space

But, as Conker sounds exactly like frenat anyway, we find ourselves right back where we started...

Oh, what Fun & Games!

Your point being? Or are you just trying to be an annoyance now?
Quā ratiōne nōn redimus ad senectēs societātēs sapientium patrum? Quā ratiōne relinquimus eārum sapientiam?

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Conker

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Uh, was this supposed to be a PM to frenat?

Oh, sorry; you just sounded exactly like him for a moment there...

Whereas with what you wrote below, you sound just like Conker:

The explosions created in the combustion chamber when the booster fuel pushes gases, like exhaust, out the back at incredibly high speeds. Other gases press against the top of the combustion chamber. This unbalanced force created by the combustion of fuel pushes the rocket upwards into space

But, as Conker sounds exactly like frenat anyway, we find ourselves right back where we started...

Oh, what Fun & Games!

Your point being? Or are you just trying to be an annoyance now?

He is implying frenat is my alt.
This is not a joke society.
Quote from: OpenedEyes
You shouldn't be allowed to talk on a free discussion forum.

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Papa Legba

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No.

I am stating, with absolute certainty, that via the use of persona management software, a small band of disinfo-trolls impersonate pretty much all the 'round earthers' & mods on this site.

It is beyond obvious, really...

Toodle-pip, Losers!
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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Conker

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No.

I am stating, with absolute certainty, that via the use of persona management software, a small band of disinfo-trolls impersonate pretty much all the 'round earthers' & mods on this site.

It is beyond obvious, really...

Toodle-pip, Losers!
Sure. Down below this post you will find a report button. Do your job as a member of the community and denounce me. Be sure to provide the absolute evidence you have for my alt. If you don't, I will assume you are a liar, and publically denounce you as such. Ready to roll those dices? Remember: you are right, so you have nothing to lose!
This is not a joke society.
Quote from: OpenedEyes
You shouldn't be allowed to talk on a free discussion forum.

?

Papa Legba

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I agree; Legba's perfectly-formed torso, innate sense of fair play & instinctive empathy mean the ladies all flock to his side...

But forget about that for now; please explain this Gordian Bullshit-knot:

And, yes, an object can go much faster than its reaction speed, because the only important thing is the relative speed between both objects, and while acording to the rocket the exhaust is going down, in fact it is going in the same direction of the rocket (in a vacuum), just slower. Simply change the POV to the rocket.

Toodle-pip, collective Losers!
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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Conker

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I have noticed, Legba, that you seem not to have reported me (or, if you have, admins have not yet deemed it important enough to notify me). When are you going to? I eagerly await your proof.


But forget about that for now; please explain this Gordian Bullshit-knot:

And, yes, an object can go much faster than its reaction speed, because the only important thing is the relative speed between both objects, and while acording to the rocket the exhaust is going down, in fact it is going in the same direction of the rocket (in a vacuum), just slower. Simply change the POV to the rocket.

With pleasure!
We have an original system A. This body, of 100 kg is travelling at 100 m/s, but since that is a frame of reference that is inertial, lets pick that one, instead. The system A is travelling at 0 m/s with respect to this inertial frame. And now we burn some fuel, that gets ejected at 10m/s. Lets say we burn 20 kg of fuel in the opposite of our movement, and assume an instantaneus impulse (such an explosion). Now, we calculate the momentum of the ejection: 10m/s*20kg = 200 kg*m/s. Of course, this has caused a change in the velocity of the object A. We know the momentum it must have (200 kg*m/s), and we know its mass (80 kg). So, all we have to do is to rearrange the equation (p=m*v becomes v=p/m) and we have VA = 200 kg*m/s / 80 kg = 2.5 m/s.

-Aha! -You will say. - See? While the ejections travel at 10 m/s, the system is going at just 2.5 m/s!

But I told you we were doing something cheeky. We are using the system's frame. Lets change back, shall we?
Since the original speed was 100 m/s, the new speed must be 100 m/s + 2.5 m/s.
But the exhaust was travelling at an original speed, too. The ejections were travelling at 100 m/s, and have been ejected at -10m/s (they were launched oposite to the direction of travel).  Therefore, their speed is now 90 m/s.

So that's how. Sure, I could do it inegrally and use accelerations, and show you how accelerations change the orbit of an object, therefore showing you the orbits with the lowest orbital speed and so on, but this shows the same thing with much more simpler math.
This is not a joke society.
Quote from: OpenedEyes
You shouldn't be allowed to talk on a free discussion forum.

?

Papa Legba

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Well, that was an impressive amount of bullshit from an impressive amount of bullshitter.

Now, for intelligent people & non-bullshitters/bullshit believers, here's the truth:

The Newtonian definition of a Force is: 'A push or pull on an object as a result of its interaction with another object'.

So, if Object One is pushing or pulling on Object Two at the speed of 9,000 mph, there is no way that Object two can exceed that speed.


It's as simple as that.

If you claim otherwise you are a Liar...

That, too, is a simple thing to see.

Toodle-pip, Bullshitter!

Oh, & p.s. LOL!!! at this bullshit too:

I have noticed, Legba, that you seem not to have reported me (or, if you have, admins have not yet deemed it important enough to notify me). When are you going to?

What a jackass.

I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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TheEarthIsASphere.

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Well, that was an impressive amount of bullshit from an impressive amount of bullshitter.

Now, for intelligent people & non-bullshitters/bullshit believers, here's the truth:

The Newtonian definition of a Force is: 'A push or pull on an object as a result of its interaction with another object'.

So, if Object One is pushing or pulling on Object Two at the speed of 9,000 mph, there is no way that Object two can exceed that speed.


It's as simple as that.

If you claim otherwise you are a Liar...

That, too, is a simple thing to see.

Toodle-pip, Bullshitter!

Oh, & p.s. LOL!!! at this bullshit too:

I have noticed, Legba, that you seem not to have reported me (or, if you have, admins have not yet deemed it important enough to notify me). When are you going to?

What a jackass.

It's absolutely hilarious to see you make completely baseless claims and call everyone liars and losers. Really - it's quite funny. You'd be much better off doing comedy at some run-down club than you would be trying to make yourself look smart here.
Quā ratiōne nōn redimus ad senectēs societātēs sapientium patrum? Quā ratiōne relinquimus eārum sapientiam?

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Papa Legba

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It's absolutely hilarious to see you make completely baseless claims

How is this a 'completely baseless claim'?

The Newtonian definition of a Force is: 'A push or pull on an object as a result of its interaction with another object'.

So, if Object One is pushing or pulling on Object Two at the speed of 9,000 mph, there is no way that Object two can exceed that speed.


It's simple Newtonian physics.

Oh, I get it!

You're hitting on me again...

This attention-whoring really must stop; you're coming over like a love-sick schoolgirl.
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

Exit speed of the gasses from a rocket nozzle is relative to the rocket, not to the earth's reference system.

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Papa Legba

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Yes, Legba's winning smile, natural athleticism & kindness to animals sure does get the girls a-swooning!

But this is still simple & irrefutable Newtonian Physics:

The Newtonian definition of a Force is: 'A push or pull on an object as a result of its interaction with another object'.

So, if Object One is pushing or pulling on Object Two at the speed of 9,000 mph, there is no way that Object two can exceed that speed.


So say bye-bye to your sci-fi fantasy 'escape velocity'.

And bye-bye to you, too, Sugar-Plum Fairy!

Oh, what the heck! Let's enjoy this again before we go:

I have noticed, Legba, that you seem not to have reported me (or, if you have, admins have not yet deemed it important enough to notify me). When are you going to?

LULZ!!!
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

Are u even lacking the concept of different reference Systems?
Gas's exit speed is relative to the rocket.
In earth's reference system the rocket keep on accelerating since there's a force (thrust) acting on it and less and less air resistance

Btw have u ever posted something useful? It all seems shipost and insult to me