The Freedom Form

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Nomad

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The Freedom Form
« on: November 24, 2006, 10:56:56 AM »
I just had a stroke of genius.  I don't remember how my mind got onto the subject, but it involves police searches, especially in relation to the Patriot and Homeland Security bills in place right now.

The big fear is that these bills give law enforcement every right to (otherwise illegally) search and seize your belongings if you are suspected as a terrorist.  And I agree--this is a very, very big problem if used improperly.

However, I came up with a simple idea to counter this plot, if it ever indeed becomes used in an improper manner.

I call it simply, "The Freedom Form."  Bonus points for the alliteration.

The idea is straightforward.  It is a small contract the size of a business card that can be carried in your pocket, or in your glove box, or in a drawer in a desk, or whatever.  It is a binding agreement that any officer of the law that wishes to perform a search of your possessions without a warrant has probable cause.

If an officer does sign the card, denoting that he agrees that there is probable cause, and does find something, then justice is served, and everything is fine.  The same goes for if he signs it and doesn't find anything, so long as you both agree about the search (which is what the card is for), everything is fine.

However, if they refuse to sign the small contract, and search anyway, then it must be made very clear that charges WILL be pressed whether they find something or not--because without presenting probable cause, a police officer making such a search is by definition violating the Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution.

Anyone have any opinions on this idea?  Suggestions?  I think it could be a useful tool for any country with a similar clause in their constitution.  It would certainly help put all of the soothsayers about the country going down the drains at ease, I think.
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Erasmus

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« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2006, 11:18:35 AM »
So, you're protecting me from illegal search by asking me to agree to it?
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Nomad

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« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2006, 11:25:25 AM »
What?

No, it's basically a form that you and the officer both sign (or you can keep your signed just in case), that protects you from illegal search.  I'm not protecting you from anything.  It's just something that can easily be used as evidence in a case against an officer that does violate the fourth amendment (in the US, anyway).

It's just an idea in the "alpha" stage if you will.  That's why I'm asking if anyone thinks it's a good idea.
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« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2006, 12:06:56 PM »
Interesting, but I doubt it would ever go into action.
on't just believe anything.  Believe what seems right.

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Nomad

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« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2006, 12:18:04 PM »
The nice thing about it is that it doesn't need any special laws or anything to go in effect.  It's nothing but a written form of the verbal contract of your "yes" or "no" that you would respond to a search request in the first place.

It would fall under all states' laws regarding written contracts, and can hold up pretty well in a court of law, as far as I know.
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Erasmus

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« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2006, 12:57:41 PM »
I guess I'm juts not clear on how it works.  Presumably both of us have to sign it, indicating that we agree with the provisions of the contract, most importantly, that there is probable cause for a search.  So, by signing it, I am agreeing that there is probably cause for a search.  My goal is not to be searched.  So, presumably, I ought not sign the contract, because I don't agree that there is probable cause.  So why am I carrying it?
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Masterchef

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« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2006, 01:41:57 PM »
And if an officer doesn't sign it, how do you have any proof that you were searched? You can't prosecute them without any evidence.

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Nomad

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« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2006, 02:10:08 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
My goal is not to be searched.  So, presumably, I ought not sign the contract, because I don't agree that there is probable cause.  So why am I carrying it?


And this is where I agree with what most people seem to say, that if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about.  And that is not the point of the idea here.  It is to prevent the illegal search and seizure of property.

Quote from: "Halofanboi"
And if an officer doesn't sign it, how do you have any proof that you were searched? You can't prosecute them without any evidence.


That's true.  And that's why I haven't really projected this idea on any politicians yet. ;P  I just wanted to get it out of my brain into a medium to get some feedback on it.

I guess that's where if the policy became national, it would be handy.  It seems to me anyway that it would cost the government less money in the long run (On the city level, anyway).  There are plenty of events regardless of the whole Patriot/Homeland Security things, where cops get reprimanded for searching without probable cause, and this would help shift the blame off of the city and onto the individual in terms of citizens having their rights violated and pressing charges.
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skeptical scientist

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« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2006, 02:20:59 PM »
I just don't see why anyone would ever sign the contract. Even if I have nothing to hide, I'd rather not get searched by the police. Certainly no one who did have something to hide would permit a search. So what does it accomplish?
-David
E pur si muove!

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Nomad

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« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2006, 02:26:44 PM »
To prevent illegal search.  *shrug*

Maybe it's a stupid idea.  Never mind.
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Erasmus

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« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2006, 03:18:12 PM »
Quote from: "thedigitalnomad"
And this is where I agree with what most people seem to say, that if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about.  And that is not the point of the idea here.  It is to prevent the illegal search and seizure of property.


Ah, that is where you don't fully get why people are opposed to illegal search and seizure.  You have not considered the possibility that cops might perform illegal searches not because they hope to actually find something, but because they hope to mess with you.

Searching people is harassment.  We are tentatively willing to let cops do it because we admit that it would be useful for them when their goal is to protect us.  But search is also useful to make the lives of political dissidents miserable, and to remind them Who's In Charge.

The Bill of Rights gives us the right not to be illegally searched, not because it would be silly or wasteful to search people unnecessarily, but because not being searched is (it says) a fundamental an inalieble right.

Basically, your proposal doesn't solve the problem because the people who are against illegal search and seizure are against it on principle.
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2006, 06:23:53 PM »
Nomad, I like the idea, I have always been one of the citizens that is not complacent and actually stands up to police when they are doing something wrong, always respectfully, but I let them know when they are doing something that is wrong (being only 16 I've already done this five times).  I think anything that gives a record of what went on with a police officer is important.
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