How can you trust maps?

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midgard

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How can you trust maps?
« on: November 24, 2006, 07:11:09 AM »
Assuming there is a massive world-wide conspiracy why do you believe their maps?!

Surely the government(s)/NASA/Santa Clause could fake these just as well as they could fake the physics of a world round???

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beast

  • 2997
How can you trust maps?
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2006, 08:37:47 AM »
We don't believe their maps.  The world look completely different to the maps that we are presented with.  In fact it probably does.  That would explain the time it takes to travel what seems like much further distances in the Southern hemisphere transposed to flat Earth maps than the in the Northern Hemisphere.  If we had more resources we could map the world correctly.

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midgard

  • 1300
How can you trust maps?
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2006, 08:43:23 AM »
You're always complaining about not having enough resources.

The ancient greeks were able to demonstrate that the Earth is round a couple of thousand years ago.

Are you saying you can't compete with an ancient civilization or did they have technology well beyond their time (another part of the conspiracy, eh?).

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Jie

  • 234
How can you trust maps?
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2006, 08:47:11 AM »
Quote from: "midgard"

Are you saying you can't compete with an ancient civilization or did they have technology well beyond their time (another part of the conspiracy, eh?).


um... You're talking of the ancient GREEKS! They practically invented the art of debating...
"Yesterday is history, tomorrow, a mystery, but today is a gift. That is why it's called the present" -- Master Oogway, from Kung Fu Panda

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beast

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How can you trust maps?
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2006, 08:48:56 AM »
Interesting statement, because apparently nobody on this forum knows how they did that, and has put forward the same argument as proof that the Earth is round (or at least that the current FE model doesn't work, while the current RE model does).  I've been dropping so many hints lately and the REers really are too stupid.  You do not need any amount of money, photographs, or technical equipment to prove that the Earth is round, yet the REers seem incapable of doing so without those things.  All you need is an ability to do maths and not living in the UK.

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midgard

  • 1300
How can you trust maps?
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2006, 08:55:09 AM »
beast: i've read many things on here that prove the Earth is round. The fact that you don't accept them as evidence means that you're the one that needs their head check. There hasn't been anything to prove the phases of the moon for instance (not by anybody's standards but certainly not by FE standards of evidence).

Anyway, the way I heard it there was an ancient greek (i think it was Pythagorus but don't quote me on that) who realised that on the same day of the year he could look down a well in Egypt and see the bottom of it because the sun shone directly down it. However on that same day of the year (in a different year) if he looked down a well in Greece he wouldn't see the bottom of it because the sun's light would be angled downwards.

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beast

  • 2997
How can you trust maps?
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2006, 08:56:48 AM »
Quote from: "midgard"
The fact that you don't accept them as evidence means that you're the one that needs their head check.


Then find a better proof that doesn't rely on accepting other people's evidence...

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midgard

  • 1300
How can you trust maps?
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2006, 08:57:48 AM »
Am I allowed to assume that car manufacturers aren't in on the conspiracy?

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beast

  • 2997
How can you trust maps?
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2006, 08:59:32 AM »
no.


You can assume whatever you want, but that leaves your arguments open to opposing assumptions.  Wouldn't it be better to come up with an argument that doesn't rely on anything apart from easily recordable observations from the any person, where ever they live in the world, whatever their level of technology or their access to equipment?

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midgard

  • 1300
How can you trust maps?
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2006, 09:07:19 AM »
Okay, beast lets turn the table: stop relying on the conspiracy theory.

Here's my proof that car manufacturer's are a part of the global conspiracy:

Driving from Canberra to Sydney is approximately 300kms. I used to make this trip quite frequently when I was in the Southern Hemidisc. According to Flat Earth maps the distance from Canberra to Sydney is much greater than 300kms. In Australia I was 184cm tall. Here in Ireland I am 184cm tall. This means that if the distance from Canberra to Sydney is much greater than 300kms then the car manufacturers in Australia must be making it so that 600kms (plucked out of the air - I'll work out what it'll be on Flat Earth in a moment) onlyl registers on cars as 300kms. It also means that they make better cars as my Hyundai Accent must've then been travelling at 320km/h, not the 160km/h I got booked at once.

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beast

  • 2997
How can you trust maps?
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2006, 09:16:12 AM »
You're assuming the FE maps are correct.  We don't know that that is the case at all.  They are based on RE maps - which are ultimately unreliable.  You'd have to map the world first for your argument to be meaningful.

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midgard

  • 1300
How can you trust maps?
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2006, 09:19:13 AM »
Quote from: "two heads"
They are based on RE maps - which are ultimately unreliable.


They're only unreliable if you believe that the earth is flat.

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Jie

  • 234
How can you trust maps?
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2006, 09:20:50 AM »
Possibility: car manufacturers design odometers according to where they export the cars to. Each odometer has an extra gear that falls into (or out of) place with a compass based mechanism.
"Yesterday is history, tomorrow, a mystery, but today is a gift. That is why it's called the present" -- Master Oogway, from Kung Fu Panda

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midgard

  • 1300
How can you trust maps?
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2006, 09:22:23 AM »
Quote from: "Jie"
Possibility: car manufacturers design odometers according to where they export the cars to. Each odometer has an extra gear that falls into (or out of) place with a compass based mechanism.


That still doesn't explain how fast my Hyndai Accent was going does it?

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midgard

  • 1300
How can you trust maps?
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2006, 09:25:26 AM »
Quote from: "two heads"
I've been dropping so many hints lately and the REers really are too stupid.  You do not need any amount of money, photographs, or technical equipment to prove that the Earth is round, yet the REers seem incapable of doing so without those things.  All you need is an ability to do maths and not living in the UK.


Here, dumbass, tell us what you think and I'll come up with some stupid, deranged excuse why it doesn't work. Anybody can up with excuses why evidence can't be submitted as proof.

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Dioptimus Drime

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How can you trust maps?
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2006, 10:56:33 AM »
Quote from: "midgard"
You're always complaining about not having enough resources.

The ancient greeks were able to demonstrate that the Earth is round a couple of thousand years ago.

Are you saying you can't compete with an ancient civilization or did they have technology well beyond their time (another part of the conspiracy, eh?).


Considering that the ancient greeks were extremely frigging rich, I have absolutely no idea how this concerns our cause at all. Honestly, where were you going with this? Not to mention, I don't think you really know where you're getting any of your facts. The Greeks didn't find out that the Earth was round by themselves, and it wasn't Pythagorum at all (though he did find out how to find the hypotaneus of triangles). It's still argued who did it, even, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm betting it would be after the reign of Alexander the Great, as that's when Hellenism became humongously widespread, and all other cultures could pool their minds together. My best bet would be that the shape of the Earth was officially "discovered" in Alexandria. Though that's just a guess, too.

The point is, stop acting like you know what you're talking about. You don't.

~D-Draw

How can you trust maps?
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2006, 11:49:59 AM »
I honestly don't see much reason not to trust maps, depending on the purpose and the map.  All navigational maps are based on a globe projected onto a flat plane through various methods.  If they were off by much, I'd think there'd be a lot of really pissed sailors, drivers and pilots out there.

"ARRR!  Where be Australia?!" "Right there." "I KNOW IT SAY IT BE RIGHT THAR!  IT BE NOT!" "Are those penguins?" "ARRRRR! A GIANT ICE WALL! I BE CRAPPIN' ME PA-"

A second later the ship was destroyed by a patriot missile.
on't just believe anything.  Believe what seems right.

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Masterchef

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How can you trust maps?
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2006, 12:24:39 PM »
Quote from: "DragonXero"
I honestly don't see much reason not to trust maps, depending on the purpose and the map.  All navigational maps are based on a globe projected onto a flat plane through various methods.  If they were off by much, I'd think there'd be a lot of really pissed sailors, drivers and pilots out there.

"ARRR!  Where be Australia?!" "Right there." "I KNOW IT SAY IT BE RIGHT THAR!  IT BE NOT!" "Are those penguins?" "ARRRRR! A GIANT ICE WALL! I BE CRAPPIN' ME PA-"

A second later the ship was destroyed by a patriot missile.

You have to remember, all ship captains and navigators are in on the conspiracy.

How can you trust maps?
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2006, 01:41:43 PM »
That's the thing that's been annoying me since I first posted.  Any visual proof or documented commentary is instantaneously dismissed as "a conspiracy".  I hate to get all creation vs. evolution on you guys, but I think the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists.  You can't disprove it, and all the pilots in the world are just getting paid off by the government to cover up the existence of the flying spaghetti monster.

It's freaking ridiculous, and too often circular logic.  Claiming that any piece of evidence presented to you is faked is just bad argumentation.

"The earth is flat."
"Here's proof it's not."
"It's fake."
"Why do you think that?"
"Because the government is conspiring to hide the truth."
"What's the truth?"
"That the earth is flat."

I've got questions, you've got conspiracies.  Anytime someone even mentions gravity, BAM, they're whacked upside the head with "GRAVITONS HAVEN'T BEEN PROVEN!"  That's not a refutation, it's just frustrating.

At least for some questions, there are mathematical arguments that hold some weight, but a lot of those are just more complicated ways of explaining what a spheroid earth explains easily.

When a new hypothesis is formed, it's usually because the old one just doesn't stand up anymore.  Where are the flaws in the Spheroid Earth theory?  What creates the need for a moer complicated and less stable hypothesis?
on't just believe anything.  Believe what seems right.

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TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
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  • GPS does not require satellites.
How can you trust maps?
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2006, 01:47:43 PM »
Quote from: "DragonXero"

I've got questions, you've got conspiracies.  Anytime someone even mentions gravity, BAM, they're whacked upside the head with "GRAVITONS HAVEN'T BEEN PROVEN!"  That's not a refutation, it's just frustrating.

The reason I started this graviton stuff was not to discredit RE, but to counter the argument that the FE has unknowns and the RE has everything figured out.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

How can you trust maps?
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2006, 08:35:17 PM »
Any theory that says it has all the answers probably has none of them.  There will always be small unknowns.  We can only make the most reasonable, likely solution to what we observe.

For unknowns, we need to make certain assumptions until further findings are made.

What's inside electrons, neutrons and protons?  Where did the matter for the big bang come from?  There are plenty of things we don't kow and shouldn't profess to know, but you can't just dismiss the large majority of evidence toward an accepted idea simply because it MIGHT be a conspiracy.  There's an incredible amount of evidence to support a round earth, but when the answer to it is always "It's a conspiracy", that really diminishes your argument against the norm.

You could come up with any random hypothesis that contradicts common knowledge and use "government conspiracy" to "prove" it.  But that really doesn't work.
on't just believe anything.  Believe what seems right.

How can you trust maps?
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2006, 04:47:03 AM »
Quote from: "beast"
Then find a better proof that doesn't rely on accepting other people's evidence...


I suppose you invented the FE theory on your own, then.
quot;Earth is flat because there is a conspiracy, and there is a conspiracy because the Earth is flat" - Makes sense, duh.

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=2955.0

How can you trust maps?
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2006, 06:27:23 AM »
Quote from: "DragonXero"
That's the thing that's been annoying me since I first posted.  Any visual proof or documented commentary is instantaneously dismissed as "a conspiracy".  I hate to get all creation vs. evolution on you guys, but I think the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists.  You can't disprove it, and all the pilots in the world are just getting paid off by the government to cover up the existence of the flying spaghetti monster.

It's freaking ridiculous, and too often circular logic.  Claiming that any piece of evidence presented to you is faked is just bad argumentation.

"The earth is flat."
"Here's proof it's not."
"It's fake."
"Why do you think that?"
"Because the government is conspiring to hide the truth."
"What's the truth?"
"That the earth is flat."

I've got questions, you've got conspiracies.  Anytime someone even mentions gravity, BAM, they're whacked upside the head with "GRAVITONS HAVEN'T BEEN PROVEN!"  That's not a refutation, it's just frustrating.

At least for some questions, there are mathematical arguments that hold some weight, but a lot of those are just more complicated ways of explaining what a spheroid earth explains easily.

When a new hypothesis is formed, it's usually because the old one just doesn't stand up anymore.  Where are the flaws in the Spheroid Earth theory?  What creates the need for a moer complicated and less stable hypothesis?


Too fucking right.

All FE'ers read that and reply, I want to see what you have to say to that.
eh, I am over it, believe in what you want.

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TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
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  • GPS does not require satellites.
How can you trust maps?
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2006, 06:51:39 AM »
Quote from: "Jake"

All FE'ers read that and reply, I want to see what you have to say to that.

Uh, yea, I already did...


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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midgard

  • 1300
How can you trust maps?
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2006, 03:37:49 AM »
Quote from: "DiegoDraw"
Considering that the ancient greeks were extremely frigging rich, I have absolutely no idea how this concerns our cause at all. Honestly, where were you going with this?


Since when did I say anything about wealth? I was talking about resources. The technology and mathematics used by the ancient Greeks to prove that the Earth is round is available to anybody. Therefore Flat Earthers shouldn't keep on complaining about "not enough resources".

Quote from: "DiegoDraw"
Not to mention, I don't think you really know where you're getting any of your facts.


Very true - I was writing on the fly. If you noticed I even said I think it was Pythagorus - I never said that for certain. Since reading your posting I've gone and done a bit of research about where that information in my head came from.

Quote from: "DiegoDraw"
The Greeks didn't find out that the Earth was round by themselves, and it wasn't Pythagorum at all (though he did find out how to find the hypotaneus of triangles). It's still argued who did it, even, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm betting it would be after the reign of Alexander the Great, as that's when Hellenism became humongously widespread, and all other cultures could pool their minds together. My best bet would be that the shape of the Earth was officially "discovered" in Alexandria. Though that's just a guess, too.


Now who doesn't know where they're getting their facts from? If you're going to have a go at me for writing on the fly you might not want to do so yourself.

Pythagorus was not the person that was connected to the story of the well. However, he did speculate that the Earth was spherical. This was not based on maths or empirical data, it was based on the beleif that if the celestial bodies were spherical then so should the Earth be. He did loads of stuff including starting a mathematical cult. Yet you only seem to believe he came up with Pythagorean Theorem. Nice.

The person that goes with the story is Eratosthenes. Here is the story for future reference:

Eratosthenes knew that in Syene (now Aswan), in Egypt, the Sun was directly overhead at the summer solstice, while he estimated that a shadow cast by the Sun at Alexandria was 1/50th of a circle. He estimated the distance from Syene to Alexandria as 5,000 stades, and estimated the Earth's circumference was 250,000 stades and a degree was 700 stades (implying a circumference of 252,000 stades).

The other ancient Greek who did it all by himself was Aristotle. He came up with the observational proof that the earth's shadow on the moon is always circular and never eliptic.

Quote from: "DiegoDraw"

The point is, stop acting like you know what you're talking about. You don't.

~D-Draw


You make a point like a sphere.

How can you trust maps?
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2006, 09:04:10 PM »
Your not going to convince anyone of anything by telling them you drive a hyundai accent.

How can you trust maps?
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2006, 09:11:28 PM »
Quote from: "beast"
That would explain the time it takes to travel what seems like much further distances in the Southern hemisphere transposed to flat Earth maps than the in the Northern Hemisphere.


Have you personally timed yourself in such travel in both the Northern and Southern Hemisphere?  If not, shut the fuck up.  If so, show me the proof.

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midgard

  • 1300
How can you trust maps?
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2006, 03:31:22 AM »
Quote from: "Earthisacube"
Your not going to convince anyone of anything by telling them you drive a hyundai accent.


drove a hyundai accent. I have since upgraded to walking.

How can you trust maps?
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2006, 04:42:33 AM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
Quote from: "Jake"

All FE'ers read that and reply, I want to see what you have to say to that.

Uh, yea, I already did...


He said FLAT  earthers.
FE Pwnage Archive

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=8101.0


The Engineer is still a douchebag







.

How can you trust maps?
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2006, 07:41:27 AM »
Quote from: "DragonXero"
That's the thing that's been annoying me since I first posted.  Any visual proof or documented commentary is instantaneously dismissed as "a conspiracy".  I hate to get all creation vs. evolution on you guys, but I think the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists.  You can't disprove it, and all the pilots in the world are just getting paid off by the government to cover up the existence of the flying spaghetti monster.

It's freaking ridiculous, and too often circular logic.  Claiming that any piece of evidence presented to you is faked is just bad argumentation.

"The earth is flat."
"Here's proof it's not."
"It's fake."
"Why do you think that?"
"Because the government is conspiring to hide the truth."
"What's the truth?"
"That the earth is flat."

I've got questions, you've got conspiracies.  Anytime someone even mentions gravity, BAM, they're whacked upside the head with "GRAVITONS HAVEN'T BEEN PROVEN!"  That's not a refutation, it's just frustrating.

At least for some questions, there are mathematical arguments that hold some weight, but a lot of those are just more complicated ways of explaining what a spheroid earth explains easily.

When a new hypothesis is formed, it's usually because the old one just doesn't stand up anymore.  Where are the flaws in the Spheroid Earth theory?  What creates the need for a moer complicated and less stable hypothesis?


You're complaing about us using a conspricy to refute your claims. But if you look at it the other way round, you are using "Scientists" to back everything up

"Flat Earth can't exist, what about gravity"
"how do you know about gravity"
"science told me"

Science and Conspiricy are equally unprovable, given that you've never met any of the Scientists who "prove" your points
ny Conspiricy without a secret society more than 1000 years old isn't worth thinking about