Nothing is "random". Nobody has "free will". Everything can be predicted.

Some of you religious folk may claim that humans have "free will", and nothing in our universe is truly predictable, everything is truly random. Even some non-religious folk like to make claims like these.

This is wrong, and I'll explain why.

If someone is given enough information, they can predict anything. For example, if I was given the state of every fundamental particle in the universe, I could predict anything, from a star going supernova down to a nanosecond, or what you, as a human are going to do next.

Near the beginning of time, and the creation of the universe (big bang), all the fundamental particles that make up our universe existed in a certain, "pattern", so to say, and it's this pattern and the specific interactions of the particles that determined all future events. If one particle had even just been in a different position after the big bang, then Earth might not have existed.

In short, there's no such thing as randomness or free will. Everything is predictable.

Some of you religious folk may claim that humans have "free will", and nothing in our universe is truly predictable, everything is truly random. Even some non-religious folk like to make claims like these.

In short, there's no such thing as randomness or free will. Everything is predictable.

Come clean...You have been reading the Bible.  Hummmm?
This is the first time I am able to write a poem and say we almost agree. Religious people (And secular) may
believe in free will. People who have undying faith in a creator, not so much. I do believe in free choice, but
that is a bit touchy. I believe, I am who I am, because the Creator set it up this way, I really don't have free will. If I fall, HE knew that too.
I don't think you will ever be able to predict every thing, (I have read your posts, and am CERTAIN you are
not GOD.)  But I sort of relate to you in a positive way.
Everything has a purpose. Everyone fits in the plan, and all things work out to the rules that are set down.
No randomness.
I think you and I are calling the same power, by different names.
BUT, you need to rethink the big bang. I do not say creation wasn't explosive in it's power, but, it progressed by a well defined plan. Drop the evolution garbage and you will have come a long way to see thru my eyes.
PS: I do think you are pretty much a fruit loop, but hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day!

I'm... Not sure why you needed to bring evolution into this... There's nothing that really will make me deny it. And, I haven't been reading the bible, but I have read it. In fact, I'm a Christian myself. I tend to lean way more toward the scientific side of things though.

I'm... Not sure why you needed to bring evolution into this...

My bad, (I guess) I can never resist the opportunity to be a bit controversial on that point. It was a MAJOR turning point in my life when I changed my view on it. Disregard it, if you must, but, I really don't want to edit it out of the post.
Thanks for the thread. I got that off my chest finally.

If someone is given enough information, they can predict anything. For example, if I was given the state of every fundamental particle in the universe, I could predict anything, from a star going supernova down to a nanosecond, or what you, as a human are going to do next.

Brush up on your physics: it is literally impossible for that to be done. Heisenberg demonstrated that you can't know everything about such particles, end of.

If you want a better argument against free will, involving randomness doesn't really alter things. I doubt anyone can seriously claim to be in control of quantum fluctuations anywhere in their body: the real crux of the free will argument is control, not randomness. Something can be as random as you like, personally I'd argue that's not free will. Externalize it: if every decision you made was done by flipping a coin, would you call that freedom, or is it just as restrictive as having only one predicted path?
Plus as far as religion goes, it's easy to argue that God knows what you'll do: but equally, you know what you did in the past. That wouldn't confirm or deny a degree of free will at the time those decisions were made, simply because they seem set in stone.

What matters is the degree of control you have. It's trivial to confirm we have none; just ask yourself how you make decisions. Are you aware of every thought as it develops, or does it pop formed into your mind? Did you design your own brain and how it functions, or did that develop itself? Do you control the external stimuli that inform decisions, or is that too forced upon you?

Quote from: TheEarthIsRound. on November 30, 2015, 02:15:35 PM

If someone is given enough information, they can predict anything. For example, if I was given the state of every fundamental particle in the universe, I could predict anything, from a star going supernova down to a nanosecond, or what you, as a human are going to do next.

Brush up on your physics: it is literally impossible for that to be done. Heisenberg demonstrated that you can't know everything about such particles, end of.

If you want a better argument against free will, involving randomness doesn't really alter things. I doubt anyone can seriously claim to be in control of quantum fluctuations anywhere in their body: the real crux of the free will argument is control, not randomness. Something can be as random as you like, personally I'd argue that's not free will. Externalize it: if every decision you made was done by flipping a coin, would you call that freedom, or is it just as restrictive as having only one predicted path?
Plus as far as religion goes, it's easy to argue that God knows what you'll do: but equally, you know what you did in the past. That wouldn't confirm or deny a degree of free will at the time those decisions were made, simply because they seem set in stone.

What matters is the degree of control you have. It's trivial to confirm we have none; just ask yourself how you make decisions. Are you aware of every thought as it develops, or does it pop formed into your mind? Did you design your own brain and how it functions, or did that develop itself? Do you control the external stimuli that inform decisions, or is that too forced upon you?

---

Brush up on your physics: it is literally impossible for that to be done. Heisenberg demonstrated that you can't know everything about such particles, end of.

I don't care if it's impossible. I was simply making a hypothetical non-scientific statement. I am aware of what Heisenberg said. This wasn't intended to be a rude topic, but I guess you've turned slightly it into one.

Other than that, I agree with what you're saying here.

I don't care if it's impossible. I was simply making a hypothetical non-scientific statement. I am aware of what Heisenberg said. This wasn't intended to be a rude topic, but I guess you've turned slightly it into one.

Other than that, I agree with what you're saying here.

I talk bluntly.
A hypothetical statement is only meaningful if it's possible. If you cannot know everything, and that it cannot be known, then any deductions based on being able to know everything are meaningless.

Quote from: TheEarthIsRound. on December 01, 2015, 09:59:18 AM

I don't care if it's impossible. I was simply making a hypothetical non-scientific statement. I am aware of what Heisenberg said. This wasn't intended to be a rude topic, but I guess you've turned slightly it into one.

Other than that, I agree with what you're saying here.

I talk bluntly.
A hypothetical statement is only meaningful if it's possible. If you cannot know everything, and that it cannot be known, then any deductions based on being able to know everything are meaningless.

Fair enough. I was more thinking in the sense that the person who knows the state of every particle is God-like, but yeah.

Free will, yes. Everything random, no.

Free will, yes. Everything random, no.

I, don't think you understood what I tried to say...

I'm saying that nothing is random and no intelligent being has had, has, or will have "free will".

I blame this misunderstanding on highschool physics in the US(if OP lives there). The latest theory they see if from BEFORE ALBERT EINSTEIN WAS EVEN BORN.

i hate my country 

It's, not false. Human emotions and behaviors all occur simply due to the chemical interactions occurring in our bodies, and primarily, brains. Free will is simply an illusion.

I don't doubt that. But due to quantum mechanical uncertainty, we cannot predict everything. Maybe a few grams of cyanide quantum-tunnel into my drink or something. Possible, but unlikely.

I don't doubt that. But due to quantum mechanical uncertainty, we cannot predict everything. Maybe a few grams of cyanide quantum-tunnel into my drink or something. Possible, but unlikely.

True, but quantum mechanics affects things on such a small scale and manner that we truly aren't affected by it.

Quote from: Luke 22:35-38 on December 01, 2015, 12:03:05 PM

Free will, yes. Everything random, no.

I, don't think you understood what I tried to say...

I'm saying that nothing is random and no intelligent being has had, has, or will have "free will".

Then I agree that nothing is random, but I disagree and think we DO have free will.

This depends on whether you mean by random, free will and predict.
Determinism is impossible EVEN in classical mechanics due to information entropy. To solve the general n-body problem for the universe one would require at least another universe as a information processor. And that's without taking into account quantum shenanigans.
Random events exist, and are quite common, but depend on what you mean by random. Even by the highest standard of randomness (it is impossible to except statistically), then quantum tunneling and radioactive decay are random. For the common meaning of random (incredibly chaotic interactions with the enviroment and uniformly dense probability), then many events are random as well (thermal and electric noise, for example).

Free will doesnt exist in the sense that a biological neural network follows a more or less understood model of activation, and a sufficiently advanced civilization could probably understand the whole working of all the convolutional layers of a brain. However, the inputs and outputs of the brain arent deterministic, and as such, the development of the brain isnt as well. While our brain's response is deterministic, the inputs arent.

While our brain's response is deterministic, the inputs arent.

This is mostly what I was trying to get across. I guess I just didn't word it very well.