Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.

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Sphericalearth

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First of all as this is a debate I will ask a simple question as we Need something to start a debate, and I expect a direct answer to that question as this forum is not a joke as claimed by moderators. Any other member who do not have direct answer to my question must not interfere as I want to keep it professional. As I believe that earth is sphere its your duty to prove me wrong by giving exact answers to my doubts as a teacher does with student.
Anyone who have done enough research on flatearth model can reply to me so I know that someone is listening to me, and I can start serious debate.
And I would like to keep this debate strictly confined to science I will not be satisfied by any religious theory. Hope you guys will understand that, and I get a very quick reply from a hardcore fact based flatearther.

Fact based and intellectual RE supporters are also welcome to share their views about the topics being discussed in debate and in context, and can post their views in support or else providing the facts/a phenomenon/observation in opposition to the matter being discussed in debate so to make your points very clear to readers.

Hope you guys feel me and keep this debate a healthy discussion. Thank you.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 02:01:11 AM by Sphericalearth »

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2015, 11:45:39 AM »
The one problem with your thread is that science needs to be taught in order. Under RET, for example, you can't explain tides without first explaining gravity and orbits. You can't ask a question and immediately expect an intelligible answer: you'd have to know what underpins first.
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Sphericalearth

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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2015, 11:53:25 PM »
Thank you JRoweSkeptic for reply. So we can start debate now. Hope this debate will clear my doubts. I understood what u want to convey by your reply so, pls suggest me from where should we begin. As u said to understand tides we should know about gravity and orbits, as far as I know in flat earth theory earth is considered to b disc accelerating at 9.8 m/s^2 upwards and sun and moon rotates or I better say hover over the earth. So that acceleration gives us the feeling of gravity. M I right till now?

So some points I would like to clear before we go on to main discussion:-
1. Do u consider sun and moon also flat?
2. Sun is closer to earth and much smaller in size ?
3. Moon is even closer to earth then the sun but of slightly bigger then sun or comparable to sun?

Pls clarify above points in the order they were asked. I have gone through many articles already and thus I reached the above stated conclusions.

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2015, 05:38:52 AM »
Thank you JRoweSkeptic for reply. So we can start debate now. Hope this debate will clear my doubts. I understood what u want to convey by your reply so, pls suggest me from where should we begin. As u said to understand tides we should know about gravity and orbits, as far as I know in flat earth theory earth is considered to b disc accelerating at 9.8 m/s^2 upwards and sun and moon rotates or I better say hover over the earth. So that acceleration gives us the feeling of gravity. M I right till now?
Some hold that, some do not. There's more than one FE model: I adhere to DET where the idea of universal acceleration is rejected (it requires infinite energy).

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1. Do u consider sun and moon also flat?
2. Sun is closer to earth and much smaller in size ?
3. Moon is even closer to earth then the sun but of slightly bigger then sun or comparable to sun?
Yes to the first, the second two are trickier to answer under DET, and many FE models; many of those that accept a dome, for example, claim many celestial objects are in fact just reflections.

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Pls clarify above points in the order they were asked. I have gone through many articles already and thus I reached the above stated conclusions.
If you'd read much of the forum, you'd have seen that there are multiple models proposed.
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Sphericalearth

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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2015, 06:03:24 AM »
Thanx JRoweSkeptic for replying.
I've also read the theory proposed by u, actually the aether part was quite interesting as I also personally believe that (only the aether part), as no proof generally exists till now depicting the exact nature of space, we can propose our theories, some believe it to b a fabric but as its 3D, aether fits with density and concentration difference concept. But the picture u posted (hand made model) of DET please upload another one that is well labeled and explain much more, I only see poles above and below the sun and moon ( in fact sun drawn bigger then moon).  And lines crossing them I didn't got your imagination, I will appreciate if u do so.

Well the above said content is not the part of debate as I don't know much about DET, I can't comment on it right now but I will b happy to discuss in near future.

I picked up most general points from all the FET models. But everyone of those theories are based on misconceptions in the mind of developer, I.e. The concepts are not clear about the world renown RET, the discussions going in the forum calling it RET, most of the people calling it RET I bet don't even know about the shape that is oblate spheroid of the earth .

Please this is my req to all those people who make a theory only keeping a certain points in mind, and then defend it, stop doing that. A theory is only acceptable if it satisfy all observations/phenomenon and facts and are based on thorough research, not only imagination.

Well coming back to debate as my first observation of FET ( sun moon also flat) was flagged true and I believe most of flat earthers believe that. I will point some flaws in this very basic point claimed by all flat earthers, that will prove this whole theory wrong, that sun is like a torch pointing some of the area of the earth. That perfectly explains the concept of day night. Some even made concepts about weather that's fine.

But actually u guys missed a universal truth, of geometry I.e. A disc when looked upon sideways seem elliptical. But sun/moon looks circular at every time of the day/ night resp..

And guys explained solar eclipse very well. But none I've found explaining lunar eclipse all says that shadow satellite of sun blocks moon. And again they say that satellite object moves in very close orbit to sun, is that a joke , they mean that moon is even closer to sun at the time of eclipse then that of shadow satellite, wait they don't stop here they say that all three are aligned, lol even a bigger joke .
If all three are aligned during lunar eclipse there should b no day on the other half of earth.

And further more 24 hrs daylight is not explained over Antarctica, it's not even 24 hrs, days extend to months there. And so as with night. They explain it via multiple sun theory lmao.
It's like create anything out of your mind and add it to your theory without any fact proving it.
Optical illusions are refered to 2nd sun.
It's ok I will let u guys live in imagination.

Guys one thing I will point here, many people like u send your kids to school , where they learn this RET and other stuff ,and some of those kids are currently working in NASA, And other space agencies around the world. Some even own private observatories. Are they all mad? They have done Ph.D. In that area of study, Ph.D. It's like independent research with full mind and hence got worldwide recognition.

Start home schooling your kids I am sure school is also a govt conspiracy to make u follow wrong facts right from beginning. ;D rofl.

Making a hoax theory and misleading others is easy my friends, but some people have spent their entire lifetime giving mankind light of knowledge, at least respect them by just not saying it a govt. conspiracy.

There go your first and very basic point.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 06:31:13 AM by Sphericalearth »

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2015, 07:12:40 AM »
I picked up most general points from all the FET models.
The uniplanar FE model is flawed, by my reckoning. 24 hour sunlight (which I've experienced myself) is easily explained under DET: a result of the same tilting that causes the seasons. The solar eclipse is the moon blocking the Sun, the lunar is the moon looking past the Sun, so its light would pass through more air and appear red.

On the DE diagram, it won't make sense unless you have read the accompanying text.
http://fet.wikia.com
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On the sister site if you want to talk.

Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2015, 08:07:20 AM »
Start home schooling your kids I am sure school is also a govt conspiracy to make u follow wrong facts right from beginning. ;D rofl.
Just a quick question, are you typing your posts from a small mobile device, or using a computer?

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Jadyyn

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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2015, 08:57:46 AM »
I picked up most general points from all the FET models.
The uniplanar FE model is flawed, by my reckoning. 24 hour sunlight (which I've experienced myself) is easily explained under DET: a result of the same tilting that causes the seasons. The solar eclipse is the moon blocking the Sun, the lunar is the moon looking past the Sun, so its light would pass through more air and appear red.

On the DE diagram, it won't make sense unless you have read the accompanying text.
I will discuss the Moon in more detail in the "DET - discussions" thread. What you say doesn't make sense.
“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” W.C. Fields.
"The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2015, 10:27:40 AM »
I picked up most general points from all the FET models.
The uniplanar FE model is flawed, by my reckoning. 24 hour sunlight (which I've experienced myself) is easily explained under DET: a result of the same tilting that causes the seasons. The solar eclipse is the moon blocking the Sun, the lunar is the moon looking past the Sun, so its light would pass through more air and appear red.

On the DE diagram, it won't make sense unless you have read the accompanying text.
I will discuss the Moon in more detail in the "DET - discussions" thread. What you say doesn't make sense.
I'm following that thread, you don't need to bring it up in another, that reeks of dishonest tactics.
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On the sister site if you want to talk.

Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2015, 06:45:12 PM »
The uniplanar FE model is flawed, by my reckoning. 24 hour sunlight (which I've experienced myself) is easily explained under DET: a result of the same tilting that causes the seasons. The solar eclipse is the moon blocking the Sun, the lunar is the moon looking past the Sun, so its light would pass through more air and appear red.

At least you recognize the FE model is flawed. However, bringing up DE here is to no avail: It lacks recognition from both RE and FE proponents. Unless you can present a final model - which you cannot - then I don't think you'll get anywhere.

DE is not fundamented on the evidence or the observations: It's purely a collection of ad hoc explanations that are completely incoherent and contradictory with scientific knowledge and observations to date. Eclipses are already fully understood and explained by the current model - Round Earth. Such explanations are completely coherent with themselves and the observational evidence.

Selenelions, which would "disprove" the current model, actually confirms it. The fact that they only happen at early sunrise or at sunset, when both the sun and full moon - Always a full moon - are near the horizon line: It confirms the RE model via the already known refraction sunlight suffers when they enter our atmosphere.



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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2015, 02:25:37 AM »
At least you recognize the FE model is flawed. However, bringing up DE here is to no avail: It lacks recognition from both RE and FE proponents. Unless you can present a final model - which you cannot - then I don't think you'll get anywhere.
You mean, like what I've done?

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DE is not fundamented on the evidence or the observations: It's purely a collection of ad hoc explanations that are completely incoherent and contradictory with scientific knowledge and observations to date.
A completely and openly false claim. How about you try to learn a model before spreading bullshit? Do you really struggle that much with making an honest argument, that you need to provide unjustified lies?
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Sphericalearth

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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2015, 11:21:31 PM »
Thanx for the replies but, none of them got answers, u people are really good in taking a debate off the context, did any one of you guys except JRoweSkeptic even bothered to read my argument. Simply replied, u Guys didn't even read the topic heading. If u r a flatearther its good just give answers is it too tough. I've made very clear in my first post that no nonsense off the topic statements would b said in this thread. Now i am forced to think even moderators are making a joke of this forum.

And what's the reason to ban me, my two devices just got banned from this forum , but I have ways to get back no worries.

Hope I get a real answer following my argument soon.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 11:25:13 PM by Sphericalearth »

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2015, 01:58:44 AM »
You have not been banned.  If you were banned, you would not be able to log in on your account.  It is likely that your ISP issued you an IP address that had previously been banned or something like that.

Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2015, 02:29:38 AM »
Sphericalearth, you'll find that most FE Theorists hold debates in the same manner as JRoweSkeptic. The only hope to preserve their argument is to get off-topic and start attacking the person instead of their argument.

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2015, 04:26:38 AM »
Thanx for the replies but, none of them got answers, u people are really good in taking a debate off the context, did any one of you guys except JRoweSkeptic even bothered to read my argument. Simply replied, u Guys didn't even read the topic heading. If u r a flatearther its good just give answers is it too tough. I've made very clear in my first post that no nonsense off the topic statements would b said in this thread. Now i am forced to think even moderators are making a joke of this forum.

And what's the reason to ban me, my two devices just got banned from this forum , but I have ways to get back no worries.

Hope I get a real answer following my argument soon.

You can't have a debate on FET unless you take the time to learn an FE model. What exactly is it you expect?
If you're not going to take the time to learn a model, why should I watse time on you?

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Sphericalearth, you'll find that most FE Theorists hold debates in the same manner as JRoweSkeptic. The only hope to preserve their argument is to get off-topic and start attacking the person instead of their argument.
You mean, expecting someone to take the time to learn what they're talking about is off-topic? Pathetic.
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On the sister site if you want to talk.

Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2015, 09:25:31 AM »
I'll avoid an easy insult and just ask a question instead. Are you implying that all mathematical data about gravity and all simulations on how it work are false and should be discredited?

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2015, 09:44:41 AM »
I'll avoid an easy insult and just ask a question instead. Are you implying that all mathematical data about gravity and all simulations on how it work are false and should be discredited?
The data, no. You're confusing raw data with theory: what we observe directly, what we calculate about that, only an idiot could question it. What matters is the proposed explanation for those observations. Gravity as a theory simply makes too many assumptions: and there are alternative explanations for what it is said to do.
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On the sister site if you want to talk.

Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2015, 09:47:32 AM »
Please explain further. What fits perfectly in place of gravity but isn't gravity?

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2015, 10:20:51 AM »
Please explain further. What fits perfectly in place of gravity but isn't gravity?
I'm not explaining my model in detail when it's available if you want to read it.
What matters is the explanation. Gravity says something very specific: that mass bends spacetime, and that this draws things nearby closer. It's incoherent. All that matters is an alternative explanation.
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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2015, 12:17:48 PM »
Gravity says something very specific: that mass bends spacetime, and that this draws things nearby closer. It's incoherent. All that matters is an alternative explanation.

You just don't understand gravity. Which is natural, as you defend DE trash

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2015, 12:19:14 PM »
Gravity says something very specific: that mass bends spacetime, and that this draws things nearby closer. It's incoherent. All that matters is an alternative explanation.

You just don't understand gravity. Which is natural, as you defend DE trash

So, never any ability to say why what I've said is wrong, just pointless assertion. WHAT THE FUCK IS THE POINT OF YOU?
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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2015, 12:23:03 PM »
Gravity says something very specific: that mass bends spacetime, and that this draws things nearby closer. It's incoherent. All that matters is an alternative explanation.

You just don't understand gravity. Which is natural, as you defend DE trash

So, never any ability to say why what I've said is wrong, just pointless assertion. WHAT THE FUCK IS THE POINT OF YOU?

Not pointless. Go learn gravitation then you'll see your mistake

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Sphericalearth

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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2015, 11:01:22 PM »
actually i was thinking right about this site and forum its a joke!

u only answered my one ques with a DET saying FET is flawed its okk , and no explanation is given with FET, this claims no FET expert is there in his forum/
my other questions were simply ignored, and nobody bothered to read my argument.

well its not u my friends wasting time on ppl like us who even showed interest in reading this bullshit forum.
nobody gives a shit about FET and we showed some interest u should be thankful instead that we are giving our time in reading and asking question, and u should be grateful that we even asked question because that mean we read the topic and thus we got question.

from 7 billion people only few million ppl know that there is even something like FET, and such a behavior of saying that learn about FET first then ask question, are u a fool why would we even look at this forum.

jrowskeptic dont take this personal as i know only u have the balls to answer and defend fairly and you r so desperate fr DET . but this is fr all flatearthers one last question from me,

DO YOU WANT RECOGNITION OR NOT.

if the answer is yes start fair debates and try to answer a person who is wasting his time due to curiosity, because he dont need u, but u need him.

and seriously jroa, m i not banned? my third device just got banned when i was logged in, and i was kicked off server in middle,
i changed my ip and m again able to login.

what to expect even moderators do not want fair debates. u guys want to build a black hole fr ppl who only believe FET. and dont want to look outside. okk have fun mingling with each other only lol. this was my last post i will ot come back.

if anyone have balls to answer other questions i asked answer them
i asked 3 question but no answer recieved.

well i expect nothing from u guys all i wanted was a fair debate, and i got lousy comments.
will not waste any more time on this bullshit. keep this FET to yourself nobody wants it.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2015, 03:49:10 AM »

and seriously jroa, m i not banned? my third device just got banned when i was logged in, and i was kicked off server in middle,
i changed my ip and m again able to login.


I don't think it is even possible to ban your IP without banning your user name as well unless your IP was attached to another username that was actually banned, such as a spambot.  Spambots are very common here, and I do ban their IPs along with their username and email address to make it harder for the bots to make more accounts.  I think I banned almost 600 spambots in the past month alone, and the site has been running much better lately.  Unfortunately, some ISPs might assign banned IP addresses to legitimate people.  If the evil people who create spambots would stop their evil doings, we could unban the IPs, but this is likely to never happen. 

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2015, 06:23:19 AM »
DET is an FE model. if all any of you have is pointless assertion and a refusal to learn, then the problem is yours, not ours.
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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2015, 10:31:20 AM »
DET is an FE model. if all any of you have is pointless assertion and a refusal to learn, then the problem is yours, not ours.
Actually, the problem is yours. The idea dies with you if it cant grow and propagate. FET has some following, meaning it will live even if most FE proponents stop promoting it. DEF on the other hand has no following. If JRowe stops promoting DEF, then it dies.
It is not a problem for anyone if that happens.

Therefore, it really is only your problem if people dont learn it.
If you know this, then you should actually promote your idea and not dictate it.

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2015, 10:42:06 AM »
DET is an FE model. if all any of you have is pointless assertion and a refusal to learn, then the problem is yours, not ours.
Actually, the problem is yours. The idea dies with you if it cant grow and propagate. FET has some following, meaning it will live even if most FE proponents stop promoting it. DEF on the other hand has no following. If JRowe stops promoting DEF, then it dies.
It is not a problem for anyone if that happens.

Therefore, it really is only your problem if people dont learn it.
If you know this, then you should actually promote your idea and not dictate it.

I promote it, but I can't promote it to someone who doesn't want to learn it. Why is that difficult to understand?
The means to learn it are there. I can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn.
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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2015, 12:23:38 AM »
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I promote it, but I can't promote it to someone who doesn't want to learn it. Why is that difficult to understand?
The means to learn it are there. I can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn.

You dont seem to have convinced many old school flat earthers about your theory, so I dont see it being just a spherical earth proponent issue.
Maybe you should revise your strategy to promote it.
I have seen lots of people not being happy with the answers you give them.

If I may suggest.
Create a personal wiki on word or where ever of all the explanations concerning the different aspects of your hypothesis.
Every time they ask, just copy past it across. It saves you time, and everyone gets less frustrated.

When people ask you a question that you have not yet considered or finished working on. Tell them so, and place the question in a personal list. There is no shame in not knowing something, especially if you are still working on something new.
It is a better use of your time to work on your hypothesis and the unanswered questions than arguing something that is incomplete.

It is just a suggestion, use it as you wish. I am still very skeptical of your hypothesis, but I definitely respect your effort in discovery.

Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2015, 06:05:28 AM »
DET is an FE model. if all any of you have is pointless assertion and a refusal to learn, then the problem is yours, not ours.
Actually, the problem is yours. The idea dies with you if it cant grow and propagate. FET has some following, meaning it will live even if most FE proponents stop promoting it. DEF on the other hand has no following. If JRowe stops promoting DEF, then it dies.
It is not a problem for anyone if that happens.

Therefore, it really is only your problem if people dont learn it.
If you know this, then you should actually promote your idea and not dictate it.

I promote it, but I can't promote it to someone who doesn't want to learn it. Why is that difficult to understand?
The means to learn it are there. I can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn.

Every single time somebody attempts to learn a part of your model out of interest, you say one of the following:

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"Read the model"
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"You haven't even bothered reading the model"
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"DET explains everything better so you're wrong"
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"once you read my theory in full it will be trivial"

You simply don't have a following. Try to dumb it down for the general population and you may get the support that you want and obviously need to get your theory off the ground.

If somebody asks you the basis of your model, you could explain in two sentences. If we ask you to explain gravity to us in your theory, you could say "changes in the thickness of aether (a field propagating all space) causes the gravitational force"
^i know thats wrong, its just sort of how it should be laid out.

If DET is as good as you think it is, points from it should be easy to extract.

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: Strict debate only with those flatearthers only, who have answers.
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2015, 01:38:43 PM »
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You dont seem to have convinced many old school flat earthers about your theory
What flat earthers? You know this site is mostly populated by trolls, right? I'm gathering interest.

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Every single time somebody attempts to learn a part of your model out of interest, you say one of the following:
Because I'm not interested in repeating myself and explaining the basics from scratch. The fundamentals are explained, people should learn the model rather than demanding I waste time repeating myself. if they aren't going to dedicate any time to learning the model, why should I waste time on them?

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If DET is as good as you think it is, points from it should be easy to extract.
If I was debating with honest people, sure. Instead everything I say will be met with demands that I explain it all from first principles, and then whine about demands for evidence and justification, both of which are length topics that cannot be explained in a handful of lines. And trying to demonstrate a question may quickly be answered by giving what you openly admit is not accurate is a perfect demonstration of your lie.
The answers are there. Read them, or don't: but if you choose not to, the ignorance is your choice and your whining won't change that.

How about you think about what you'are actually saying for once?
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