Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.

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TheEarthIsASphere.

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Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« on: November 15, 2015, 05:59:38 PM »
One thing you flat Earthers seem to have failed to address is the tides. The tides are a phenomenon caused by the gravity of the sun and the moon causing the oceans to rise and fall in certain places of the Earth. The following graphic illustrates this pretty well:



The black portions of the globes represent the Earth's oceans being affected by the gravity of the sun and moon.

How does a flat Earth model explain this effect? Don't deny that they are false as well, there are plenty of online gifs and videos to prove that they exist. To illustrate this you can even go see this effect for yourself. In fact, here's a short 1-minute video of the tides, in action:

" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">

There's no denying it, you really can't come up with a good explanation for the tides on a flat Earth.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 04:57:04 AM by TheEarthIsRoundNotFlat »
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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2015, 06:06:12 PM »
Looking forward to reading the bullshit they come up with on the spot.
I am the worst moderator ever.

Waah! Waah! I can't be bothered to learn anything! Waah!

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TheEarthIsASphere.

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2015, 06:17:13 PM »
Looking forward to reading the bullshit they come up with on the spot.

Agreed.
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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2015, 06:27:42 PM »
Looking forward to reading the bullshit they come up with on the spot.

FE can "explain" Tides just like it can "explain" eclipses.

They invent an ad hoc explanation. For eclipses there's the "Shadow Object". So I guess they'll come with a "Watery Object" that exists at the bottom of the oceans, expands and contracts at will and "coincidentally" expands more when the moon and sun are on the "right place"  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2015, 12:03:50 AM »
It's a conspiracy! Coastal towns are in it for that sweet NASA money!

 ;D

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2015, 12:06:30 AM »
Please remember that this is the upper fora.  Please treat it as such.

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mikeman7918

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2015, 08:56:57 AM »
Please remember that this is the upper fora.  Please treat it as such.

Your a flat earther.  How about you respond to the OP?
I am having a video war with Jeranism.
See the thread about it here.

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2015, 09:16:27 AM »
The DE answer is simply borne from the fact the downwards force, which you call gravity, is not predicted to be uniform: this will cause the flow we observe. At some points, it will be greater, and water will flow away from those points, causing tides.
This is a similar effect to that which carries the moon's light, a sentence only meaningful to those that know DET, but the answer remains.

Here's betting Kirk will leap on this and whinge about it being ad hoc, despite no new behaviors or additions to DET being required. he does so love talking about a model he knows nothing about.
http://fet.wikia.com
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On the sister site if you want to talk.

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TheEarthIsASphere.

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2015, 09:37:27 AM »
The DE answer is simply borne from the fact the downwards force, which you call gravity, is not predicted to be uniform: this will cause the flow we observe. At some points, it will be greater, and water will flow away from those points, causing tides.
This is a similar effect to that which carries the moon's light, a sentence only meaningful to those that know DET, but the answer remains.

Here's betting Kirk will leap on this and whinge about it being ad hoc, despite no new behaviors or additions to DET being required. he does so love talking about a model he knows nothing about.

First off, gravity isn't a downwards force. It's an attractive force. There's really no such thing as down. Secondly, how can a downwards force, in the case of FET, cause the oceans to rise and fall? The reason the tides exist is because of an external force from an external body with gravity. Tides can't be caused by the forces on an object itself.

If you have a diagram showing how the tides work with FET, then I'd love to see if, but as it stands, Kirk is right, this is a rather ad hoc explanation.
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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2015, 09:51:38 AM »
The DE answer is simply borne from the fact the downwards force, which you call gravity, is not predicted to be uniform: this will cause the flow we observe. At some points, it will be greater, and water will flow away from those points, causing tides.
This is a similar effect to that which carries the moon's light, a sentence only meaningful to those that know DET, but the answer remains.

Here's betting Kirk will leap on this and whinge about it being ad hoc, despite no new behaviors or additions to DET being required. he does so love talking about a model he knows nothing about.

First off, gravity isn't a downwards force. It's an attractive force. There's really no such thing as down. Secondly, how can a downwards force, in the case of FET, cause the oceans to rise and fall? The reason the tides exist is because of an external force from an external body with gravity. Tides can't be caused by the forces on an object itself.

If you have a diagram showing how the tides work with FET, then I'd love to see if, but as it stands, Kirk is right, this is a rather ad hoc explanation.
There is a downwards force on a FE, which is what I'm talking about.
You cannot assume your explanation is the only possible explanation. A low tide in one place causes a high tide elsewhere. An external force is behind the tides in both models.

It isn't ad hoc, it's a natural consequence of the existing DE model, which is in turn a consequence of a simply defined and deduced entity. It only seems odd because you don't know the model from which it comes.
For a simpler diagram:

The sea flat
__________
A downwards force on the left:
______-----
And on the right:
-------____

What the force is, stems from part of the DE model that would take too long to explain. It's linked to the rotation motion we observe in the heavens.
http://fet.wikia.com
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On the sister site if you want to talk.

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ronxyz

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2015, 10:15:48 AM »
The call them tide prediction tables. Maybe if it was an exact science based on gravity and the moon they would not have to conjure. The tides are just as easily explained by the prevailing wind and the fractional interaction with water. The wind plotted on the flat Earth clearly alludes to this being the case. It is also observed that any large large body of water will surge in a relation to volumetric size regardless of the position of the moon. At most the moon tides are a theory.
If the Earth is a ball why don't we fall off the bottom?

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TheEarthIsASphere.

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2015, 10:20:10 AM »
The DE answer is simply borne from the fact the downwards force, which you call gravity, is not predicted to be uniform: this will cause the flow we observe. At some points, it will be greater, and water will flow away from those points, causing tides.
This is a similar effect to that which carries the moon's light, a sentence only meaningful to those that know DET, but the answer remains.

Here's betting Kirk will leap on this and whinge about it being ad hoc, despite no new behaviors or additions to DET being required. he does so love talking about a model he knows nothing about.

First off, gravity isn't a downwards force. It's an attractive force. There's really no such thing as down. Secondly, how can a downwards force, in the case of FET, cause the oceans to rise and fall? The reason the tides exist is because of an external force from an external body with gravity. Tides can't be caused by the forces on an object itself.

If you have a diagram showing how the tides work with FET, then I'd love to see if, but as it stands, Kirk is right, this is a rather ad hoc explanation.
There is a downwards force on a FE, which is what I'm talking about.
You cannot assume your explanation is the only possible explanation. A low tide in one place causes a high tide elsewhere. An external force is behind the tides in both models.

It isn't ad hoc, it's a natural consequence of the existing DE model, which is in turn a consequence of a simply defined and deduced entity. It only seems odd because you don't know the model from which it comes.
For a simpler diagram:

The sea flat
__________
A downwards force on the left:
______-----
And on the right:
-------____

What the force is, stems from part of the DE model that would take too long to explain. It's linked to the rotation motion we observe in the heavens.

Okay, but what exactly causes the unequal forces on a flat Earth? Magic?
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TheEarthIsASphere.

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2015, 10:22:44 AM »
The call them tide prediction tables. Maybe if it was an exact science based on gravity and the moon they would not have to conjure. The tides are just as easily explained by the prevailing wind and the fractional interaction with water. The wind plotted on the flat Earth clearly alludes to this being the case. It is also observed that any large large body of water will surge in a relation to volumetric size regardless of the position of the moon. At most the moon tides are a theory.

The wind doesn't have the power to make sea levels rise hundreds of feet. At most, strong wind causes waves, which aren't tides, but rather just, well, waves. If you watched the video I linked, it's pretty clear that the wind is not what's causing the oceans to rise and fall.
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TheEarthIsASphere.

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2015, 10:24:59 AM »
It's a conspiracy! Coastal towns are in it for that sweet NASA money!

 ;D

Lol, more like no money at the rate the U.S. Government is continuing to fund NASA at.
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Yendor

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2015, 10:29:30 AM »
I lean towards electricity may be what causes tides. It would work the same on a round or flat Earth.
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sceptimatic

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2015, 10:40:27 AM »
The tides work due to expansion and contraction of the dome, creating pressure changes.
For an analogy, just think of a rubber dome covering a bowl half full of water.
You now have air and water under that dome. Now press down slightly on the dome, very slowly and you see a build up of water rising in the bowl.
Release that pressure slowly and you will see the water recede.

That's as simple as it happens. The only difference is the Earth's central energy source creates the expansion and contraction from within, as a self preservation cell.

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TheEarthIsASphere.

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2015, 10:42:34 AM »
I lean towards electricity may be what causes tides. It would work the same on a round or flat Earth.

Elaborate. As it stand, you've got no explanation for this, and it already seems highly unlikely.
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TheEarthIsASphere.

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2015, 10:44:10 AM »
The tides work due to expansion and contraction of the dome, creating pressure changes.
For an analogy, just think of a rubber dome covering a bowl half full of water.
You now have air and water under that dome. Now press down slightly on the dome, very slowly and you see a build up of water rising in the bowl.
Release that pressure slowly and you will see the water recede.

That's as simple as it happens. The only difference is the Earth's central energy source creates the expansion and contraction from within, as a self preservation cell.

The problem with this is that the water would rise up everywhere, and not just in certain places, as the tides currently do. Does this idea have an explanation for why the tides only happen in certain places, rather than all at once? As it stands, this explanation is incorrect.
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sandokhan

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2015, 10:57:08 AM »
One thing you flat Earthers seem to have failed to address is the tides.

Is this supposed to be a joke?

I have addressed each and every one of the issues/subjects which are related to FE vs. RE.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1486127#msg1486127

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sandokhan

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2015, 11:06:26 AM »
By the way, TheEarthisFlatnotRound...

You forgot to mention atmospheric tides.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1707294#msg1707294

"It has been known now for two and a half centuries, that there are more or less daily variations in the height of the barometer, culminating in two maxima and two minima during the course of 24 hours. The same observation has been made and puzzled over at every station at which pressure records were kept and studied, but without success in finding for it the complete physical explanation."

BAROMETER PRESSURE PARADOX

One maximum is at 10 a.m., the other at 10 p.m.; the two minima are at 4 a.m. and 4 p.m.

The heating effect of the sun can explain neither the time when the maxima appear nor the time of the minima of these semidiurnal variations.

If the pressure becomes lower without the air becoming lighter through a lateral expansion due to heat, this must mean that the same mass of air gravitates with changing force at different hours.


Lord Rayleigh: ‘The relative magnitude of the latter [semidiurnal variations], as observed at most parts of the earth’s surface, is still a mystery, all the attempted explanations being illusory.’



Currently, the barometer pressure paradox CANNOT BE EXPLAINED AT ALL: all scientists have been at a complete loss to even the address the subject, a total defiance of attractive gravity.

Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2015, 11:22:56 AM »
The tides work due to expansion and contraction of the dome, creating pressure changes.
Say waa?  The perfectly mirrored ice dome is now expanding and contracting all day long??  lol

Quote
For an analogy
You have endless analogies, and no evidence.
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TheEarthIsASphere.

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2015, 11:35:42 AM »
Sandokhan, I'm not talking about atmospheric tides here. I'm talking about oceanic tides. Please get drivel off-topic to this thread out of here.
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TheEarthIsASphere.

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2015, 11:38:48 AM »
Besides, sandokhan, that "explanation" you linked was written by you, and has almost nothing to do with tides, except for the fact that you say the word "tide" once or twice. Nothing but stupid drivel. I mean, how are black holes related to the oceanic tides?

Just leave before we have to read more impossible-to-understand walls of meaningless text.
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oeN

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2015, 11:47:13 AM »
Does this implies that You believe that Russians and Americans control the weather with weapons, and so they control tides, etc.?

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TheEarthIsASphere.

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2015, 11:49:59 AM »
Does this implies that You believe that Russians and Americans control the weather with weapons, and so they control tides, etc.?

God, no. You can't "control" the weather. It's an unpredictable machine with so many variables. In the case of the tides, you simply can't just make the ocean levels "rise" in certain places and "fall" in others. You'd need an external force, in this case, the gravity of the moon and sun, acting upon the bodies of water in order for them to rise and fall.

Yeesh.
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TheEarthIsASphere.

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2015, 11:51:43 AM »
The tides work due to expansion and contraction of the dome, creating pressure changes.
For an analogy
You have endless analogies, and no evidence.

rekt
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ronxyz

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2015, 11:52:26 AM »
'The wind doesn't have the power to make sea levels rise hundreds of feet.'

There are no tides in hundreds of feet. The highest tides range to around 12 feet. The localized effects are from coastal funneling by the land shape and the ramping effect. Though the atmospheric pressure changes look to have the most influence winds do indeed effect water movement.

Please note the the Moon tide theory is just that , a theory.
If the Earth is a ball why don't we fall off the bottom?

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sandokhan

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2015, 11:54:26 AM »
Atmospheric tides are absolutely related to oceanic tides: they are produced by the pressure of telluric currents. It is this periodic pressure which does cause the oceanic tides: terrestrial gravity is a force of pressure. The reason I included the black holes subject there was due to lack of space (at the time, I was responding to a question re: black holes, and decided to include everything in the same message).

The reason you dismiss everything so readily is clear: you know that you do not stand a chance with me here.

Let me put an end to your thread right now.

The tides are a phenomenon caused by the gravity of the sun and the moon causing the oceans to rise and fall in certain places of the Earth.

Really?

Here is the Double Forces Paradox of Attractive Gravitation.

From a classic text on mechanics:




When science teachers are asked how does gravity work, they answer in this manner:

Gravity is a force.

Gravity is directed towards the center of the orbit i.e. the sun.

That makes gravity the centripetal force.

Imagine a ball attached to a string and you are holding the other end of the string and moving your hand in such a way that the ball is in circular motion. Then tension in the string is centripetal force.

Now, ball = earth

you = sun

tension in the string = gravity



Gravity is the reason one object orbits another. An analogy is swinging a ball on a string over your head. The string is like gravity, and it keeps the ball in orbit. If you let go of the string, the ball flies away from you. (Dr. Eric Christian, April 2011)


http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=4569 (UCSB Science Line)

Centrifugal force acts on a rotating object in a direction opposite the axis of rotation. Imagine that you have a tennis ball tied to a string. If you swing the tennis ball on the string around in a circle, you would feel the ball tugging on the string. That is the centrifugal force on the ball. It is counteracted by tension in the string that you are holding. In this example, the tension force in the string is like the gravitational force between the earth and the sun. The ball doesn't get closer or farther from your hand. If you suddenly cut the string, the ball would go flying away, but that wont happen to the earth because of the sun's gravity.

http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=4583

Forces can make something move or stop something from moving. For a planet in orbit around the sun, the string is invisible. That invisible string is the gravitational force between the Earth and the sun.


Then, the Mass Attraction and General Relativity Attraction concepts are not viable models for the cause of gravity and inertia.

Applying any "attractive" force model to the Earth Moon dynamic forces, we obtain this system:

The Earth’s attractive gravitation balances the orbital centrifugal force of the Moon.
The Moon’s attractive gravitation balances the orbital centrifugal force of the Earth.

At first this may seem like an orderly and balanced attractive force system; however,... the following paradox exists. If the seat, source and cause of the "apparent" attraction forces are "internal" to each of the bodies...the attraction concept produces twice the force that is necessary to balance the centrifugal orbital forces of a planet moon system. The concept of "attraction" between bodies requires that the force “from” each separate body acts on the remote body,-- and equally on the originating body. Another example of a balanced system is a rope under tension; each end has an equal amount of opposing force. As noted by Newton's third law of motion, " To every action there is always an opposed  equal reaction".

This double force paradox is directly applicable to the "mass attraction",... the General Relativity “attraction” and all other attraction type concepts of gravity.

This example may help visualize the double force issue.

Let there be two rafts ( x and y )  freely floating on a clear calm lake with a rope between them.
Both rafts are still and are a rope length apart. 
The man on (raft x) pulls on the rope which is attached to raft y.
Raft x will move toward raft y,… and raft y will move toward raft x.
Both rafts will receive equal and opposite force and motion. 
It is not possible for (raft x) to remain still and be the source of the force.   

The Mass Attraction Models of Gravitation

The attraction concepts accept Newton's inverse square equation of gravity's force between two bodies as:
             F = G x (M1 x M2) / r squared .
The surface gravity (g) for each of the bodies can be derived from the gravitational constant (G) and the mass and radius of the bodies. Using Newton's equation the g forces, allegedly "seated" in each of the "two" bodies acting on the other at a distance, can be calculated.

Within the "attraction" concepts:

From Earth, the concept requires that Earth's gravity is attracting the Moon; and an equal Earth anchored “attraction” force is pulling the Earth toward the Moon.

From the Moon, the Moon's gravity is attracting the Earth; and this Moon seated force is equally pulling the Moon toward the Earth.
 

Using: 1 ) Newton’s equation as given above, 2 ) basic arithmetic, 3 ) common logic and 4 ) the mechanics of force, it is shown that the assumed Earth and Moon seated forces are equal; and as a result;…"all attraction models" produce twice the force that is required to balance the centrifugal forces of orbit!

The General Relativity Model of Gravitation

The exact same paradox arises with the General Relativity (GR) concept of gravity. It postulates that Mass warps a hypothetical "fabric of spacetime" and the warped fabric of spacetime causes “attraction” of other masses. Since in the GR theory the seat of the attractive force is anchored within the center of the planet’s and moon’s positions, we would again have twice the force required to balance the orbital forces of the Earth Moon system.

Stanley V. Byers

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TheEarthIsASphere.

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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2015, 12:05:33 PM »
You don't seem to understand that objects have different levels of gravitational attraction due to their masses do you? The reason the earth and moon don't equally attract each other is because they each attract each other with different amounts of force, in the case of the earth, it attracts more.

Seems like you slept through your high school physics classes.
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Re: Hmm, I wonder how tides work on a flat Earth? Do they? No.
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2015, 12:13:06 PM »
Please note the the Moon tide theory is just that , a theory.

A scientific theory, sure. Something you guys seem to be unable to comprehend is the difference between "theory" in every day communication, and a "theory" in scientific communication, which is the highest regard something can achieve meaning that every bit of our observations point towards it and there's no other way to explain it without throwing out half of what we already know.
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