Flat Earth model and evidence supporting the theory.

Using a pinhole camera to image the setting sun proves the flat Earth. The sun moves in a straight line, not a curved line. If the Earth were moving the setting sun would show an arc and it does not.

Ahem.

Quote from: ronxyz on November 14, 2015, 03:34:39 PM

Using a pinhole camera to image the setting sun proves the flat Earth. The sun moves in a straight line, not a curved line. If the Earth were moving the setting sun would show an arc and it does not.

Ahem.

You cannot use pictures to prove he has no true... they split pictures to 2 categories "true one" and "fake" ... this one is fake for sure (it does not support what he is saying).

You cannot use any video or picture to disprove theyr ideas for the same reason.

Quote from: JRoweSkeptic on November 15, 2015, 09:47:40 AM

Quote from: tomfi on November 15, 2015, 09:44:07 AM

Quote from: JRoweSkeptic on November 15, 2015, 09:39:46 AM

Quote from: tomfi on November 15, 2015, 09:37:13 AM

Quote from: JRoweSkeptic on November 15, 2015, 09:21:23 AM

Quote

Has someone written up an actual model? One that's straightforward to understand and simpler than the RE model?

That is no gauge of truth. The universe is under no obligation to be easily intelligible: all science takes some effort to understand. FET may be trickier because you're more used to RE answers, but it works just fine.

The evidence for FET (or rather DET, the theory that I've found best explains observations) is simply observational. It is a model that explains observations with fewer assumptions. It isn't a "Point to one fact and find undeniable evidence," because the real world doesn't work that way. There are a few tests that can be done, but not easily: the fundamental evidence comes from the fact that the model works with fewer assumptions than the alternatives.

"The FET best explains observations" ...


good point, and worth remembering... because this model were actual when people didnt had good measuring technologies... measuring 1degree of difference per day using just your EYE and a FINGER pointing to some direction will not end with some new exploration... you will end in nothing... and thats exactly what we see from FET model people... NOTHING NEW... you all just try to prove that round earth is wrong (without proofs, just using your own sences) using the less acurate things like eye and feelings. You dont try to continue from that point where flat model ended in the science...
Why all of you try to reinvent something people known 3000 years ago (that flat model) and still not wana to take thouse things as ground... who you belive in your physics? I can imagine that Newton is not trustfull for you... so who were? What mathematics and physics are you using and is trustfull for you? (lately i saw that counting under zero is invention that made math untrustfull or some FET people... thats why I ask... what math are you using? ... or do every one of you try to invent your own physics and math?

How about you try not completely ignoring what I was saying? That can be quite a useful thing to do.

Do you actually know that there were real attempts to matematicly write how sun, moon and planets move?... do you know them? If you know them EXPLAIN HOW WERE THEY WRONG, WHY DONT YOU BELIVE THEM OR why do you think that based on them they decided Earth cannot be center of movements... did you found that mistakes?... or do you try to reinvent whole physics by your self?

OK once more... who were last sciencist you belive. What is latest math you belive?

The same observation may have multiple possible explanations. The answer to all your questions is that simple. You're creating a restrictive and absurd false dilemma. Again, I ask you to read what I actually said and not resort to tedious and irrelevant stock arguments.

Sure observations HAVE multiple possible explanations... Its not a hidden secret, it is fact.

Does your reaction to my question means that you dont belive ANY PHYSICS SCIENCIST? Or that you are to lazy to continue where flat earth model sciencists stoped?


Do you belive computers that use that wrong physical model?

What the hell are you even talking about?
There's no way to discuss with someone who makes such mad conclusions. What the fuck, seriously.

Hm. What you expect form me?  I asked you if you know flat earth models that were created when people known the earth is flat (Yes I know  it was knowledge at one time) so I asked how you as flat earth model evangelist solved their problems with that models?  Then I asked what exact model is that you think is correct. your own, or if you continue in the 1000 years work of other flat model scientists.
And you just  told me that "real world doesn't work that way" no reference, nothing that we can speak about from model point of view.
What you are triing to explain, just look on it.... if you are on that level when you just belive what you see nothing else, you will face in few decades a problem with Haley comet ... you will have problem to predict when it will come and where it will be, and trajectory... How to explain this for you completely new thing???.... Do you really plan to make your own earth and planets and comets and moon and sun model? From scratch? That is really hard thing and now I understand why there is no actual model ( give me model, I will apologize).... Look on history how long it took to develop just let say calendar that we are using now and it takes decades or centuries to see just a little mistake in it, if you use just comon sence..... It means that if you plan to develop whole new flat earn model, you must be precise. you may save decades of work just studiing history of physics and select point where you will take other path.

For example I tried to count if is it possible to sun be 3000miles above earth with axiom that sunset has to do something with distance of sun from watcher... I counted it just for one day and just for two locations..... it does not fit with known sunset times widely seen on internet, or times counted with standard sunset formula used on RE model. The difference was rather significant. It means that flat earthers must have better model already then model I tried use.... to be able to predict at least if sun have sunset at 17:50 in sydney when will be sunset in London.   I hope I'm not first person that tried to ask how the sun moves according to FE. 

That's why I wana to see actual model too... Because you say it's obvious, but no, I tried it and it's not obvious for me.

Don't ask a question if you're just going to ignore the answer when it's given. I have answered what you asked. Just because it's not the nice, convenient thing you want me to say to fit in with your preconceptions of what FET is, doesn't change the fact that your questions have been answered, and no amount of insistence that your straw man of the entire movement is accurate will change that.
The reason for asking a question is to hear an actual answer, not to try and force people to say what you want them to.

Don't ask a question if you're just going to ignore the answer when it's given. I have answered what you asked. Just because it's not the nice, convenient thing you want me to say to fit in with your preconceptions of what FET is, doesn't change the fact that your questions have been answered, and no amount of insistence that your straw man of the entire movement is accurate will change that.
The reason for asking a question is to hear an actual answer, not to try and force people to say what you want them to.

Ok... sory to be not polite to you... I dont think im a negativist, i just use crytical thinking whole my life and every time i try to aply it on FE model, that model fail and it makes me sad that it does.
 I'm not against you or FE theory per se. I wana to understand the FE model and I fail misserably... its not about photodocumentation, we know it is easy to fake photo or video. Its not about what you see (we know magicians or optical ilusions ... is easy to cheat your own sences).

But well... what I have about FE model : sun is 3000 miles away and the earth is flat, easy to verify right?
 
But if I take calculator and try to verify the sun as 3000 miles away, I fail in every point with one exception when that calculation works, and this exception is that calculation stated here:
http://wiki.tfes.org/Distance_to_the_Sun
If you calculate it just for this one moment, it works... but no other moment or other location.... so my conclusion was, there must be more precise model then this one.


Please dont tell me that I dont see the truth if the truth cannot be verified! If I cannot verify something how can I belive in it?

And now look on what you answer to me.... do you think that It will convence me? Do you think that answer you given me is something that make me belive?

so my conclusion was, there must be more precise model then this one.

Yes. I don't subscribe to the uniplanar model, there are too many flaws.

Please dont tell me that I dont see the truth if the truth cannot be verified!

What would count as verification, to you?

And now look on what you answer to me.... do you think that It will convence me? Do you think that answer you given me is something that make me belive?

I doubt it. You can't convince someone who does not want to accept what you say. Whatever the case, your questions have been answered.

OK thanks for answering my question.

May you now provide formula that Im able to use to precalculate sunset? (but not that formula that is based on round earth).


Verification? Didnt I asked to see a formula to calculate sunset times?
Why I ask it? Well from that formula I can get how sunset is possible from viewer point of view, what is the sun location, distance, angle and so on... To get into why we see sun going under horizont.

I see your proposition to DET model... why are you afraid of criticism? Do you think your model have holes or your formulation is vague or not correct? (dont see reason why you afraid trolls so much.... so much ... so you dont make your model public, to do public review).

There are no predictive models in FE ... no math beyond junior high school level ... that's not how they role here ...

Verification? Didnt I asked to see a formula to calculate sunset times?

Which requires resources and time no one person has. Do you think the RE formula was made by one person? It's easy enough to give you it in terms of time, but that'd be the RE formula as you call it because it's independent of shape.

I see your proposition to DET model... why are you afraid of criticism? Do you think your model have holes or your formulation is vague or not correct? (dont see reason why you afraid trolls so much.... so much ... so you dont make your model public, to do public review).

And this is my problem with you. You see my answer to the question (the impossibility of explaining anything given the trolls on this site), and instead conclude that I must be lying and my real motivation is because I'm afraid of criticism. if I was afraid if criticism I wouldn't be on this site and I wouldn't be inviting people to learn it.
Do you see the problem? You conclude from your arrogance that your presuppositions and stereotypical views of FEers and FET must be correct, and outright ignore anything that dares suggest otherwise.

Quote from: tomfi on November 16, 2015, 10:01:26 AM

Verification? Didnt I asked to see a formula to calculate sunset times?

Which requires resources and time no one person has. Do you think the RE formula was made by one person? It's easy enough to give you it in terms of time, but that'd be the RE formula as you call it because it's independent of shape.

Quote

I see your proposition to DET model... why are you afraid of criticism? Do you think your model have holes or your formulation is vague or not correct? (dont see reason why you afraid trolls so much.... so much ... so you dont make your model public, to do public review).

And this is my problem with you. You see my answer to the question (the impossibility of explaining anything given the trolls on this site), and instead conclude that I must be lying and my real motivation is because I'm afraid of criticism. if I was afraid if criticism I wouldn't be on this site and I wouldn't be inviting people to learn it.
Do you see the problem? You conclude from your arrogance that your presuppositions and stereotypical views of FEers and FET must be correct, and outright ignore anything that dares suggest otherwise.

How would you start to produce the information?  Brief outline.

How would you start to produce the information?  Brief outline.

What?

Quote from: inquisitive on November 16, 2015, 12:36:35 PM

How would you start to produce the information?  Brief outline.

What?

On calculating sunrise and sunset times.

Quote from: JRoweSkeptic on November 16, 2015, 12:38:58 PM

Quote from: inquisitive on November 16, 2015, 12:36:35 PM

How would you start to produce the information?  Brief outline.

What?

On calculating sunrise and sunset times.

Take measurements, how long it takes for its light to go full circle, arrive at an accurate map (when possible: done via measuring distances) to then calculate the speed of the Sun.
Then use the angle the Sun moves at, and subsequent direction, to calculate the time it would take to reach the locations it rises and lowers.

One way, at least. I don't doubt there are others.

Quote from: inquisitive on November 16, 2015, 12:40:25 PM

Quote from: JRoweSkeptic on November 16, 2015, 12:38:58 PM

Quote from: inquisitive on November 16, 2015, 12:36:35 PM

How would you start to produce the information?  Brief outline.

What?

On calculating sunrise and sunset times.

Take measurements, how long it takes for its light to go full circle, arrive at an accurate map (when possible: done via measuring distances) to then calculate the speed of the Sun.
Then use the angle the Sun moves at, and subsequent direction, to calculate the time it would take to reach the locations it rises and lowers.

One way, at least. I don't doubt there are others.

Something like this - http://www.sunearthtools.com/dp/tools/pos_sun.php

Quote from: JRoweSkeptic on November 16, 2015, 12:56:56 PM

Quote from: inquisitive on November 16, 2015, 12:40:25 PM

Quote from: JRoweSkeptic on November 16, 2015, 12:38:58 PM

Quote from: inquisitive on November 16, 2015, 12:36:35 PM

How would you start to produce the information?  Brief outline.

What?

On calculating sunrise and sunset times.

Take measurements, how long it takes for its light to go full circle, arrive at an accurate map (when possible: done via measuring distances) to then calculate the speed of the Sun.
Then use the angle the Sun moves at, and subsequent direction, to calculate the time it would take to reach the locations it rises and lowers.

One way, at least. I don't doubt there are others.

Something like this - http://www.sunearthtools.com/dp/tools/pos_sun.php

Perhaps. What's your point?

Quote from: inquisitive on November 16, 2015, 01:02:20 PM

Quote from: JRoweSkeptic on November 16, 2015, 12:56:56 PM

Quote from: inquisitive on November 16, 2015, 12:40:25 PM

Quote from: JRoweSkeptic on November 16, 2015, 12:38:58 PM

Quote from: inquisitive on November 16, 2015, 12:36:35 PM

How would you start to produce the information?  Brief outline.

What?

On calculating sunrise and sunset times.

Take measurements, how long it takes for its light to go full circle, arrive at an accurate map (when possible: done via measuring distances) to then calculate the speed of the Sun.
Then use the angle the Sun moves at, and subsequent direction, to calculate the time it would take to reach the locations it rises and lowers.

One way, at least. I don't doubt there are others.

Something like this - http://www.sunearthtools.com/dp/tools/pos_sun.php

Perhaps. What's your point?

You can verify that  the information it provides is correct and then understand how it is calculated.

Quote from: JRoweSkeptic on November 16, 2015, 01:13:40 PM

Quote from: inquisitive on November 16, 2015, 01:02:20 PM

Quote from: JRoweSkeptic on November 16, 2015, 12:56:56 PM

Quote from: inquisitive on November 16, 2015, 12:40:25 PM

Quote from: JRoweSkeptic on November 16, 2015, 12:38:58 PM

Quote from: inquisitive on November 16, 2015, 12:36:35 PM

How would you start to produce the information?  Brief outline.

What?

On calculating sunrise and sunset times.

Take measurements, how long it takes for its light to go full circle, arrive at an accurate map (when possible: done via measuring distances) to then calculate the speed of the Sun.
Then use the angle the Sun moves at, and subsequent direction, to calculate the time it would take to reach the locations it rises and lowers.

One way, at least. I don't doubt there are others.

Something like this - http://www.sunearthtools.com/dp/tools/pos_sun.php

Perhaps. What's your point?

You can verify that  the information it provides is correct and then understand how it is calculated.

The verification on any kind of scale taking almost as many resources as deriving the information from scratch would. Besides, all that means is, at best, that the RE map between the tropics is approximately accurate. So what?

Quote from: inquisitive on November 16, 2015, 01:28:46 PM

Quote from: JRoweSkeptic on November 16, 2015, 01:13:40 PM

Quote from: inquisitive on November 16, 2015, 01:02:20 PM

Quote from: JRoweSkeptic on November 16, 2015, 12:56:56 PM

Quote from: inquisitive on November 16, 2015, 12:40:25 PM

Quote from: JRoweSkeptic on November 16, 2015, 12:38:58 PM

Quote from: inquisitive on November 16, 2015, 12:36:35 PM

How would you start to produce the information?  Brief outline.

What?

On calculating sunrise and sunset times.

Take measurements, how long it takes for its light to go full circle, arrive at an accurate map (when possible: done via measuring distances) to then calculate the speed of the Sun.
Then use the angle the Sun moves at, and subsequent direction, to calculate the time it would take to reach the locations it rises and lowers.

One way, at least. I don't doubt there are others.

Something like this - http://www.sunearthtools.com/dp/tools/pos_sun.php

Perhaps. What's your point?

You can verify that  the information it provides is correct and then understand how it is calculated.

The verification on any kind of scale taking almost as many resources as deriving the information from scratch would. Besides, all that means is, at best, that the RE map between the tropics is approximately accurate. So what?

You could start with checks from, say, 20 locations.  Not difficult.  Or from your own location on different dates and times.

Quote from: tomfi on November 16, 2015, 10:01:26 AM

Verification? Didnt I asked to see a formula to calculate sunset times?

Which requires resources and time no one person has. Do you think the RE formula was made by one person? It's easy enough to give you it in terms of time, but that'd be the RE formula as you call it because it's independent of shape.

Quote

I see your proposition to DET model... why are you afraid of criticism? Do you think your model have holes or your formulation is vague or not correct? (dont see reason why you afraid trolls so much.... so much ... so you dont make your model public, to do public review).

And this is my problem with you. You see my answer to the question (the impossibility of explaining anything given the trolls on this site), and instead conclude that I must be lying and my real motivation is because I'm afraid of criticism. if I was afraid if criticism I wouldn't be on this site and I wouldn't be inviting people to learn it.
Do you see the problem? You conclude from your arrogance that your presuppositions and stereotypical views of FEers and FET must be correct, and outright ignore anything that dares suggest otherwise.

OK this is fair response. I taught that FE model after so many years (flat society exists long, and wiki cite  older research, flat model preceded RE model .... ) will not be on the begining.
For me till there will be math model I will "save" this model as "I dont know". Thanks for being clear. More info in PM.

You could start with checks from, say, 20 locations.  Not difficult.  Or from your own location on different dates and times.

The twenty locations would need to be very distant for there to be any benefit to the travel, so that counts as pretty damn difficult in my book: and verifying at my own location is very limited is meaning, and again I ask; so what?

OK this is fair response. I taught that FE model after so many years (flat society exists long, and wiki cite  older research, flat model preceded RE model .... ) will not be on the begining.

DET is not the classical FE model: and even if FET has had a few decades, that's nothing without the necessary numbers and resources.

Quote

You could start with checks from, say, 20 locations.  Not difficult.  Or from your own location on different dates and times.

The twenty locations would need to be very distant for there to be any benefit to the travel, so that counts as pretty damn difficult in my book: and verifying at my own location is very limited is meaning, and again I ask; so what?

Quote

OK this is fair response. I taught that FE model after so many years (flat society exists long, and wiki cite  older research, flat model preceded RE model .... ) will not be on the begining.

DET is not the classical FE model: and even if FET has had a few decades, that's nothing without the necessary numbers and resources.

You need people at different locations to do the measurements and then calculate what earth shape and sun distances that shows.  Not difficult.

You need people at different locations to do the measurements and then calculate what earth shape and sun distances that shows.  Not difficult.

Coordinating a group of twenty people. Sure, easy. Also, bullshit. You'd need to know the location and angle of the Sun, and that's hardly going to be easy to measure: a fraction of a degree off will add up to huge error, and a fraction of a degree is the best case scenario. just knowing what time the Sun rises doesn't help us at all unless there is a functional map, which is similarly nearly impossible to get without a tremendous amount fo resources.
Do you ever think about what you propose?!

Quote from: inquisitive on November 17, 2015, 01:58:44 PM

You need people at different locations to do the measurements and then calculate what earth shape and sun distances that shows.  Not difficult.

Coordinating a group of twenty people. Sure, easy. Also, bullshit. You'd need to know the location and angle of the Sun, and that's hardly going to be easy to measure: a fraction of a degree off will add up to huge error, and a fraction of a degree is the best case scenario. just knowing what time the Sun rises doesn't help us at all unless there is a functional map, which is similarly nearly impossible to get without a tremendous amount fo resources.
Do you ever think about what you propose?!

Try 5 locations.  Do you believe any sites showing directions are incorrect?

Quote from: JRoweSkeptic on November 17, 2015, 02:03:38 PM

Quote from: inquisitive on November 17, 2015, 01:58:44 PM

You need people at different locations to do the measurements and then calculate what earth shape and sun distances that shows.  Not difficult.

Coordinating a group of twenty people. Sure, easy. Also, bullshit. You'd need to know the location and angle of the Sun, and that's hardly going to be easy to measure: a fraction of a degree off will add up to huge error, and a fraction of a degree is the best case scenario. just knowing what time the Sun rises doesn't help us at all unless there is a functional map, which is similarly nearly impossible to get without a tremendous amount fo resources.
Do you ever think about what you propose?!

Try 5 locations.  Do you believe any sites showing directions are incorrect?

The number of locations isn't going to remove the fundamental problem with your proposal. Are you reading a word I say or just relying on stock arguments like usual?
I believe they're locally accurate, but error inevitably creeps in on large scales.