Flat-earthers, please explain this image.

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skeptical scientist

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Flat-earthers, please explain this image.
« on: November 21, 2006, 11:48:00 PM »

This image was taken at the Anglo-Australian Telescope in central New South Wales, Australia, and is a time-lapse photograph of the night sky with a duration of 10.5 hours. It clearly shows the existence of a southern pole star, which is impossible in any of the flat earth models on this website.

Of course, the usual objections apply: the image could have been faked. However, anyone in the southern hemisphere can take a similar photograph. That means that anyone who lives south of the equator or knows someone who lives south of the equator can prove the existence of a southern polestar by simply taking a tripod and a camera to their back yard and setting up a time-lapse photo centered on the southern cross. Beast or mjk could do it tonight.

So, my question to flat-earthers is this: how can you explain the easily verifiable existence of both a northern and a southern pole star?
-David
E pur si muove!

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mjk

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« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2006, 11:57:34 PM »
well for starters both of my SLR cameras have been broken since last year, so no i cant take a time lapse photo tonight.  and even if i could, theres a high possibility of cloud cover ruining the image.  would you mind linking to the site you got this from so we can read up on how its actually done?  because the image makes no sense to me, in RE OR FE theory.
quote="diegodraw"]you never mentioned anything about antagonizing naive idiots who have reason to believe they should defend what everyone already knows is logical....Not like anybody would ever have fun doing that, of course[/quote]

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skeptical scientist

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« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2006, 12:25:06 AM »
Here is the website I got the image from. They have a page on performing your own star-trail photography here, for those interested.

The basic idea is really quite simple. As the earth spins, the stars remain fixed, so from a given point of the earth, the stars appear to rotate about a point directly above the axis of the earth, exactly as if you painted stars on your ceiling and spun in a swivel chair. Of course, the stars only rotate as quickly as the earth does, so only about 15 degrees per hour - far too slowly to notice when just looking up at the sky. Images like this one are produced by pointing a camera at the sky and exposing the film in it over a several hour period. As the stars move, they leave trails on the film everywhere they have been over the course of the exposure, just like you can get a blurred image of a fast-moving subject when taking a regular picture. Because the exposure is so long, you get a record of every point the star visits while the camera shutter is open.

Of course, you don't need a camera to locate a pole star - ancient mariners used celestial navigation over two millenia before the invention of film by determining the location of the north star. You could locate it with careful observation over the course of a single night if you were determined. Photography just makes the process trivial and provides convincing and beautiful images of the phenomenon.
-David
E pur si muove!

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beast

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Flat-earthers, please explain this image.
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2006, 12:49:01 AM »
I guess the dome with the stars stuck on it is spinning around that point.

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skeptical scientist

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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2006, 01:01:00 AM »
Quote from: "beast"
I guess the dome with the stars stuck on it is spinning around that point.

But there are two points like this. One is within a degree of the North star Polaris, which is almost directly above the north pole. The other is below the southern cross, and can be located by any of these methods. It is clearly to the south when viewed from any point in the southern hemisphere. How can the "dome" be spinning around both?
-David
E pur si muove!

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beast

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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2006, 01:43:17 AM »
Well when I see the other point, I'll comment.  You can send me a free ticket to the US if you like.

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Jake

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Flat-earthers, please explain this image.
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2006, 01:46:40 AM »
Quote from: "beast"
Well when I see the other point, I'll comment.  You can send me a free ticket to the US if you like.


You are willing to believe in a theory that is just plain crazy but you aren't willing to believe that picture?
eh, I am over it, believe in what you want.

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skeptical scientist

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Flat-earthers, please explain this image.
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2006, 01:51:53 AM »
Quote from: "beast"
Well when I see the other point, I'll comment.  You can send me a free ticket to the US if you like.

Do you have any friends who live in the northern hemisphere? Have you ever been to the northern hemisphere and been shown the north star? Do you really think that everyone who has ever described the north star, taken photos of ursa major, or talked about the history of celestial navigation is either in on the conspiracy or duped? There are a lot of amateur astronomers out there...
-David
E pur si muove!

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beast

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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2006, 03:36:35 AM »
maybe there are two domes?  Who knows, the flat Earth society doesn't have the funds to examine such phenomenon so we can't really investigate it.

Flat-earthers, please explain this image.
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2006, 04:46:50 AM »
You left the camera out all night, with the shutter open.  Had you taken the photograph properly, as we FEs always do, you would not have that strange effect.

It's a shame you REs are not as technologically advanced as we FEs.  We're working on your stem cells, at our Creation Science Laboratories, to see if you can be helped.

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Xargo

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« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2006, 08:59:53 AM »
Quote from: "beast"
maybe there are two domes?  Who knows, the flat Earth society doesn't have the funds to examine such phenomenon so we can't really investigate it.


No shit.  You don't even have the money to get a fucking telescope.
quot;Earth is flat because there is a conspiracy, and there is a conspiracy because the Earth is flat" - Makes sense, duh.

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=2955.0

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skeptical scientist

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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2006, 10:09:09 AM »
Quote from: "beast"
maybe there are two domes?

This still doesn't explain it, because the south celestial pole is demonstrably south of both Brazil  and Australia, which are in opposite directions and several thousand miles apart on a FE map. So the only believable conclusion you could draw is that the earth is round.
Quote
Who knows, the flat Earth society doesn't have the funds to examine such phenomenon so we can't really investigate it.

Does the FE society have members in both Australia and England? If so, it wouldn't cost anything - the Australian and English members could simply carry out their local experiments and share data. If there was another FE member is South America as well, they could perform the observation there too.
-David
E pur si muove!

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Masterchef

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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2006, 12:15:05 PM »
Of course the Flat Earthers won't test it for themselves, because they know it will prove their crappy "theory" wrong.

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Jake

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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2006, 05:00:02 PM »
Hey flat earthers, just call it a conspiracy and be done with it.

"Why do the all the world Governments say the Earth is round?"
"It's a conspiracy."

"What about NASA? Don't they have photos to prove that the Earth is round?"
"NASA are part of the conspiracy too. The photos are faked."
eh, I am over it, believe in what you want.

Flat-earthers, please explain this image.
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2006, 08:56:33 PM »
That image was obvioulsy faked.
quote="DiegoDraw"]"And Moses said unto his brethren: 'The Earth is flat!...biznatches,'" [/quote]
DOT INFO

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Dioptimus Drime

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« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2006, 09:53:37 PM »
Quote from: "Jake"
Hey flat earthers, just call it a conspiracy and be done with it.

"Why do the all the world Governments say the Earth is round?"
"It's a conspiracy."

"What about NASA? Don't they have photos to prove that the Earth is round?"
"NASA are part of the conspiracy too. The photos are faked."

Well, just play devil's advocate for a moment, if you would. How the hell else would YOU explain why NASA and the government is telling us the Earth is round when really it's flat? Honestly, I don't see the point in trying to attack this argument as such. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it, and I doubt anybody fighting for the RE Model (save a few of the actually intelligible debaters) could come up with anything better (or anything at all). There's simply no other reason that's even available.

~D-Draw

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skeptical scientist

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Flat-earthers, please explain this image.
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2006, 10:18:32 PM »
Quote from: "The_Earth_Does_Not_Exist"
That image was obvioulsy faked.

I believe I already covered this objection...
-David
E pur si muove!

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phaseshifter

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« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2006, 11:04:14 PM »
Quote
How the hell else would YOU explain why NASA and the government is telling us the Earth is round when really it's flat?


It requires no explanation if you don't beleive the earth is fllat.
atttttttup was right when he said joseph bloom is right, The Engineer is a douchebag.

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beast

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« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2006, 09:10:22 AM »
Ok I tried the experiment but when I did it, all I got with this image.  I tried it over and over.  I set the shutter speed to stay open until I repressed the button and it definitely worked because I also took a bunch of super blurry pics.


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beast

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« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2006, 09:12:03 AM »
So I say that the picture is faked and that if any flat Earthers do the experiement, they'll see that the results are not as Sceptical Scientist says they will be.  In fact the stars remain stationary.  I prove it with that image.

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phaseshifter

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Flat-earthers, please explain this image.
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2006, 09:30:39 AM »
Quote from: "beast"
So I say that the picture is faked and that if any flat Earthers do the experiement, they'll see that the results are not as Sceptical Scientist says they will be.  In fact the stars remain stationary.  I prove it with that image.


Your image is fake.
atttttttup was right when he said joseph bloom is right, The Engineer is a douchebag.

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skeptical scientist

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Flat-earthers, please explain this image.
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2006, 09:34:36 AM »
Quote from: "beast"
So I say that the picture is faked and that if any flat Earthers do the experiement, they'll see that the results are not as Sceptical Scientist says they will be.  In fact the stars remain stationary.  I prove it with that image.

How long was the shutter open for?
-David
E pur si muove!

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Raa

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Flat-earthers, please explain this image.
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2006, 09:53:40 AM »
it means something like this, that there are 2 meteor clouds up there, one with polaris and the other {a little higher} with the south star, both rotating counteclockwise. as a matter of fact there are other clouds up there which we can't see, like the one with the east star as its' axis. this makes sense for horizontal rotation of all things above us...some higher than others. definitly not something for round earthers
Everything, is in EMBRYO, not in mathematics. 
Please look at the 1/4 moon when it's around at noon ; We cannot see anything between it and the sun.

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Jojo

Flat-earthers, please explain this image.
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2006, 10:06:20 AM »

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phaseshifter

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« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2006, 10:14:06 AM »
Quote from: "Raa"
it means something like this, that there are 2 meteor clouds up there, one with polaris and the other {a little higher} with the south star, both rotating counteclockwise. as a matter of fact there are other clouds up there which we can't see, like the one with the east star as its' axis. this makes sense for horizontal rotation of all things above us...some higher than others. definitly not something for round earthers


What's your point?
atttttttup was right when he said joseph bloom is right, The Engineer is a douchebag.

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skeptical scientist

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Flat-earthers, please explain this image.
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2006, 10:14:36 AM »
Quote from: "Raa"
it means something like this, that there are 2 meteor clouds up there, one with polaris and the other {a little higher} with the south star, both rotating counteclockwise. as a matter of fact there are other clouds up there which we can't see, like the one with the east star as its' axis. this makes sense for horizontal rotation of all things above us...some higher than others. definitly not something for round earthers

Quote from: "skeptical scientist"
This still doesn't explain it, because the south celestial pole is demonstrably south of both Brazil and Australia, which are in opposite directions and several thousand miles apart on a FE map. So the only believable conclusion you could draw is that the earth is round.

And no, you couldn't have three meteor clouds either, because the stars around the south celestial pole are the same, whether viewed from Australia or Africa or South America.
-David
E pur si muove!

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Raa

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Flat-earthers, please explain this image.
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2006, 12:24:47 PM »
Quote from: "phaseshifter"
Quote from: "Raa"
it means something like this, that there are 2 meteor clouds up there, one with polaris and the other {a little higher} with the south star, both rotating counteclockwise. as a matter of fact there are other clouds up there which we can't see, like the one with the east star as its' axis. this makes sense for horizontal rotation of all things above us...some higher than others. definitly not something for round earthers


What's your point?
my point is, "thanks for the picture, I now realize what "clouds, dense as lead" signifies. it's a gift for me...more knowledge of what's "in embryo"  :cry: "I feel Great" Thanks again   :)
Everything, is in EMBRYO, not in mathematics. 
Please look at the 1/4 moon when it's around at noon ; We cannot see anything between it and the sun.

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Raa

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« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2006, 12:29:55 PM »
The view of the Universe, with-out mathematics, is the Greatest feeling you could have!!!
Everything, is in EMBRYO, not in mathematics. 
Please look at the 1/4 moon when it's around at noon ; We cannot see anything between it and the sun.

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Nomad

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« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2006, 12:45:07 PM »
It's too bad you're still wrong.
Nomad is a superhero.

8/30 NEVAR FORGET

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Erasmus

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« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2006, 02:50:29 PM »
Quote from: "beast"
So I say that the picture is faked and that if any flat Earthers do the experiement, they'll see that the results are not as Sceptical Scientist says they will be.  In fact the stars remain stationary.  I prove it with that image.


beast, are you really saying that the stars do not move during the night?  I think the Zetetic in you should be reminding you that you can see that with your naked eyes...
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?