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IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B

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chtwrone

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IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« on: October 28, 2015, 03:59:53 AM »


But Papa Legba would disagree, due to his complete disregard for the mass of the fuel in his Object A and B rocket model.



When referring to a person on a skateboard throwing a medicine ball, he correctly labels the person as Object A and the medicine ball as Object B.

In the cannon scenario, he also correctly labels the cannon as Object A and the cannonball as Object B.

But in the rocket system, although he has correctly labelled the rocket as Object A, he has failed to recognise that the rocket's fuel is in fact Object B.  Struggling to find this mysterious and illusive Object B, he fumbles around in desperation as to where it is, and ignorantly labels the atmosphere as Object B?

All 3 of the above systems, generate a propelling force on Object A, due to the opposing momentum force of Object B.

With the 'person on skateboard' system, the person is propelled due to the forcible ejection (momentum force) of mass (medicine ball) out of the system.

With the 'cannon' system, the cannon is propelled due to the forcible ejection (momentum force) of mass (cannonball) out of the system.

With the 'rocket' system, the rocket is propelled due to the forcible ejection (momentum force) of mass (fuel) out of the system.



No doubt Papa Legba will respond with his usual repetitious rhetoric, but it will be interesting to see how he explains, in his opinion, that the fuel has had no momentum force imparted onto it during the process of combustion and forcible ejection out of the engine nozzles.

If we look at the rocket's fuel before ignition, we can obviously see that the fuel has X amount of mass, but nil velocity.

But after ignition, we can obviously see that the fuel which has now exited the rocket system as the exhaust with X amount of mass, is now travelling at extreme velocity.

The previously stationary fuel, which is Object B, has just had a HUGE amount of momentum imparted onto it, and obviously this exact same amount of momentum must be transferred back onto Object A.

And guess what, this Object A is the rocket and it is now been propelled in the opposite direction to that of Object B.


So in conclusion, it's now been established that the 3 systems referred to above, all generate a momentum force on the system's Object A, due to the forcible ejection (opposite momentum force) of Object B out of each of the systems.


Therefore Papa Legba, for you to disagree with the above, you will have to demonstrate that the mass of fuel has NOT had any momentum imparted onto it during its combustion and forcible ejection out of the rocket's engine nozzles.

Your explanation is greatly anticipated.



 
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Papa Legba

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2015, 04:38:08 AM »
LOL!!!

1) Object A = cannon.

2) Propellant = P.

3) Object B = cannon ball.

Propellant P sits between Objects A & B.

When Propellant P expands between them, Objects A & B are thrust apart.

Simple.


However:

1) Rocket = Object A.

2) Propellant = P

3) Object B = ?

There is clearly NO Object B in the rocket example.

But we know that, for thrust to be achieved, Propellant P MUST expand between Two Masses.

So; what Mass could replace the cannonball as Object B?

The only choice is the enormous Mass of the atmosphere.

*Yawn!*

Wasn't so hard, was it?

Any more stupid questions I've already repeatedly answered?

Or are we done here?

Cos if you crackpots wish to believe objects can 'push on themselves' (lol!), or push on nothing at all, then knock yourselves out.

I ain't the Thought-Police.

I just prefer to live in Reality, safe in the knowledge that all the Laws of Physics are on my side.

Toodle-pip!
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Yendor

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2015, 11:43:07 AM »
PaPa is absolutely correct!!!! No one can really believe in all honestly that a rocket propels itself in space by pushing on its own exhaust gas. Just letting that thought enter your mind is preposterous. The exhaust gas molecules leaving the combustion chamber and entering the vacuum of space never slows down and never collides with any outside objects. Any force at all from the exhaust is rapidly moving away from the rocket as fast as it can go. There is no way for that exhaust force to stick around long enough to return any force to the rocket that can be used for propulsion. Any force from the exhaust will be carried off into the far corners of space as soon as it leaves the rocket nozzle. This is also known as Joule Expansion. Remember that as soon as the nozzle is opened, the combustion chamber becomes part of the vacuum of space and is subject to its laws. A closed chamber is under pressure but not an open one. If rockets truly work in space, it is definitely not because they push against their own feces. Try it, go take a dump and see if you get lifted off the ground.
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Mainframes

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2015, 11:55:00 AM »
The exhaust does not 'return the force'.

Use newtons third. Every action has an equal and opposite. The rocket pushes the exhaust backwards and the exhaust pushes the rocket forwards. There, not so hard is it.
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chtwrone

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2015, 12:19:57 PM »
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 11:43:07 AM
PaPa is absolutely correct!!!! No one can really believe in all honestly that a rocket propels itself in space by pushing on its own exhaust gas. Just letting that thought enter your mind is preposterous. The exhaust gas molecules leaving the combustion chamber and entering the vacuum of space never slows down and never collides with any outside objects. Any force at all from the exhaust is rapidly moving away from the rocket as fast as it can go. There is no way for that exhaust force to stick around long enough to return any force to the rocket that can be used for propulsion. Any force from the exhaust will be carried off into the far corners of space as soon as it leaves the rocket nozzle. This is also known as Joule Expansion. Remember that as soon as the nozzle is opened, the combustion chamber becomes part of the vacuum of space and is subject to its laws. A closed chamber is under pressure but not an open one. If rockets truly work in space, it is definitely not because they push against their own feces. Try it, go take a dump and see if you get lifted off the ground.


Sorry Yendor, but Papa Legba is absolutely INCORRECT!!!!


Yendor, at this stage I am only looking at a rocket system's operation within the atmosphere, as others are dealing with propulsion in a vacuum on other threads.

Do you agree, that in my first post, I have established that the fuel, which was previously stationary within the fuel tanks, has now been given a huge amount of momentum force, as it is being ignited and forcibly ejected out of the engine nozzles?

Yes or no?
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sceptimatic

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2015, 12:35:26 PM »
Can anyone explain to me where the combustion chamber is inside this compressed air, rocket cylinder?

Can anyone tell me what makes this compressed air cylinder shoot into the air like a rocket?



#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">! No longer available
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Yendor

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2015, 12:42:50 PM »
Quote from: chtwrone on October 28, 2015, 12:19:57 PM
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 11:43:07 AM
PaPa is absolutely correct!!!! No one can really believe in all honestly that a rocket propels itself in space by pushing on its own exhaust gas. Just letting that thought enter your mind is preposterous. The exhaust gas molecules leaving the combustion chamber and entering the vacuum of space never slows down and never collides with any outside objects. Any force at all from the exhaust is rapidly moving away from the rocket as fast as it can go. There is no way for that exhaust force to stick around long enough to return any force to the rocket that can be used for propulsion. Any force from the exhaust will be carried off into the far corners of space as soon as it leaves the rocket nozzle. This is also known as Joule Expansion. Remember that as soon as the nozzle is opened, the combustion chamber becomes part of the vacuum of space and is subject to its laws. A closed chamber is under pressure but not an open one. If rockets truly work in space, it is definitely not because they push against their own feces. Try it, go take a dump and see if you get lifted off the ground.


Sorry Yendor, but Papa Legba is absolutely INCORRECT!!!!


Yendor, at this stage I am only looking at a rocket system's operation within the atmosphere, as others are dealing with propulsion in a vacuum on other threads.

Do you agree, that in my first post, I have established that the fuel, which was previously stationary within the fuel tanks, has now been given a huge amount of momentum force, as it is being ignited and forcibly ejected out of the engine nozzles?

Yes or no?


If a rocket gets propelled by pushing on it's own exhaust than if a large shield or deflector was tied on the back of the rocket and used for the exhaust to push against, it should work really well and the rocket should go a hellin'. Like this masterpiece I drew for you. Wouldn't this work better than only pushing against the exhaust there would be a solid wall to push against?

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Göebbels

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2015, 12:55:42 PM »
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 12:42:50 PM
Quote from: chtwrone on October 28, 2015, 12:19:57 PM
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 11:43:07 AM
PaPa is absolutely correct!!!! No one can really believe in all honestly that a rocket propels itself in space by pushing on its own exhaust gas. Just letting that thought enter your mind is preposterous. The exhaust gas molecules leaving the combustion chamber and entering the vacuum of space never slows down and never collides with any outside objects. Any force at all from the exhaust is rapidly moving away from the rocket as fast as it can go. There is no way for that exhaust force to stick around long enough to return any force to the rocket that can be used for propulsion. Any force from the exhaust will be carried off into the far corners of space as soon as it leaves the rocket nozzle. This is also known as Joule Expansion. Remember that as soon as the nozzle is opened, the combustion chamber becomes part of the vacuum of space and is subject to its laws. A closed chamber is under pressure but not an open one. If rockets truly work in space, it is definitely not because they push against their own feces. Try it, go take a dump and see if you get lifted off the ground.


Sorry Yendor, but Papa Legba is absolutely INCORRECT!!!!


Yendor, at this stage I am only looking at a rocket system's operation within the atmosphere, as others are dealing with propulsion in a vacuum on other threads.

Do you agree, that in my first post, I have established that the fuel, which was previously stationary within the fuel tanks, has now been given a huge amount of momentum force, as it is being ignited and forcibly ejected out of the engine nozzles?

Yes or no?


If a rocket gets propelled by pushing on it's own exhaust than if a large shield or deflector was tied on the back of the rocket and used for the exhaust to push against, it should work really well and the rocket should go a hellin'. Like this masterpiece I drew for you. Wouldn't this work better than only pushing against the exhaust there would be a solid wall to push against?



Is that deflector fully closed? If that was the case, I believe it would just explode due to gas accumulating inside.
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chtwrone

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2015, 12:56:14 PM »
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 12:42:50 PM
Quote from: chtwrone on October 28, 2015, 12:19:57 PM
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 11:43:07 AM
PaPa is absolutely correct!!!! No one can really believe in all honestly that a rocket propels itself in space by pushing on its own exhaust gas. Just letting that thought enter your mind is preposterous. The exhaust gas molecules leaving the combustion chamber and entering the vacuum of space never slows down and never collides with any outside objects. Any force at all from the exhaust is rapidly moving away from the rocket as fast as it can go. There is no way for that exhaust force to stick around long enough to return any force to the rocket that can be used for propulsion. Any force from the exhaust will be carried off into the far corners of space as soon as it leaves the rocket nozzle. This is also known as Joule Expansion. Remember that as soon as the nozzle is opened, the combustion chamber becomes part of the vacuum of space and is subject to its laws. A closed chamber is under pressure but not an open one. If rockets truly work in space, it is definitely not because they push against their own feces. Try it, go take a dump and see if you get lifted off the ground.


Sorry Yendor, but Papa Legba is absolutely INCORRECT!!!!


Yendor, at this stage I am only looking at a rocket system's operation within the atmosphere, as others are dealing with propulsion in a vacuum on other threads.

Do you agree, that in my first post, I have established that the fuel, which was previously stationary within the fuel tanks, has now been given a huge amount of momentum force, as it is being ignited and forcibly ejected out of the engine nozzles?

Yes or no?


If a rocket gets propelled by pushing on it's own exhaust than if a large shield or deflector was tied on the back of the rocket and used for the exhaust to push against, it should work really well and the rocket should go a hellin'. Like this masterpiece I drew for you. Wouldn't this work better than only pushing against the exhaust there would be a solid wall to push against?





It looks to me as though you don't even realise that a rocket is propelled due to the application of momentum laws?


If an X amount of fuel is being forcibly ejected at hypersonic velocity out of the rocket system, then this huge amount of momentum MUST be balanced in the resulting equation.

The fact that the rocket MUST be propelled (equal and opposite momentum) should come as no surprise.



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Yendor

  • 1676
Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2015, 01:01:39 PM »
Quote from: Göebbels on October 28, 2015, 12:55:42 PM
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 12:42:50 PM
Quote from: chtwrone on October 28, 2015, 12:19:57 PM
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 11:43:07 AM
PaPa is absolutely correct!!!! No one can really believe in all honestly that a rocket propels itself in space by pushing on its own exhaust gas. Just letting that thought enter your mind is preposterous. The exhaust gas molecules leaving the combustion chamber and entering the vacuum of space never slows down and never collides with any outside objects. Any force at all from the exhaust is rapidly moving away from the rocket as fast as it can go. There is no way for that exhaust force to stick around long enough to return any force to the rocket that can be used for propulsion. Any force from the exhaust will be carried off into the far corners of space as soon as it leaves the rocket nozzle. This is also known as Joule Expansion. Remember that as soon as the nozzle is opened, the combustion chamber becomes part of the vacuum of space and is subject to its laws. A closed chamber is under pressure but not an open one. If rockets truly work in space, it is definitely not because they push against their own feces. Try it, go take a dump and see if you get lifted off the ground.


Sorry Yendor, but Papa Legba is absolutely INCORRECT!!!!


Yendor, at this stage I am only looking at a rocket system's operation within the atmosphere, as others are dealing with propulsion in a vacuum on other threads.

Do you agree, that in my first post, I have established that the fuel, which was previously stationary within the fuel tanks, has now been given a huge amount of momentum force, as it is being ignited and forcibly ejected out of the engine nozzles?

Yes or no?


If a rocket gets propelled by pushing on it's own exhaust than if a large shield or deflector was tied on the back of the rocket and used for the exhaust to push against, it should work really well and the rocket should go a hellin'. Like this masterpiece I drew for you. Wouldn't this work better than only pushing against the exhaust there would be a solid wall to push against?



Is that deflector fully closed? If that was the case, I believe it would just explode due to gas accumulating inside.

No, No it would be open on enough to allow the exhaust to escape safely. I'm sure NASA should be able to do that.
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Yendor

  • 1676
Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2015, 01:12:02 PM »
Quote from: chtwrone on October 28, 2015, 12:56:14 PM
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 12:42:50 PM
Quote from: chtwrone on October 28, 2015, 12:19:57 PM
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 11:43:07 AM
PaPa is absolutely correct!!!! No one can really believe in all honestly that a rocket propels itself in space by pushing on its own exhaust gas. Just letting that thought enter your mind is preposterous. The exhaust gas molecules leaving the combustion chamber and entering the vacuum of space never slows down and never collides with any outside objects. Any force at all from the exhaust is rapidly moving away from the rocket as fast as it can go. There is no way for that exhaust force to stick around long enough to return any force to the rocket that can be used for propulsion. Any force from the exhaust will be carried off into the far corners of space as soon as it leaves the rocket nozzle. This is also known as Joule Expansion. Remember that as soon as the nozzle is opened, the combustion chamber becomes part of the vacuum of space and is subject to its laws. A closed chamber is under pressure but not an open one. If rockets truly work in space, it is definitely not because they push against their own feces. Try it, go take a dump and see if you get lifted off the ground.


Sorry Yendor, but Papa Legba is absolutely INCORRECT!!!!


Yendor, at this stage I am only looking at a rocket system's operation within the atmosphere, as others are dealing with propulsion in a vacuum on other threads.

Do you agree, that in my first post, I have established that the fuel, which was previously stationary within the fuel tanks, has now been given a huge amount of momentum force, as it is being ignited and forcibly ejected out of the engine nozzles?

Yes or no?


If a rocket gets propelled by pushing on it's own exhaust than if a large shield or deflector was tied on the back of the rocket and used for the exhaust to push against, it should work really well and the rocket should go a hellin'. Like this masterpiece I drew for you. Wouldn't this work better than only pushing against the exhaust there would be a solid wall to push against?





It looks to me as though you don't even realise that a rocket is propelled due to the application of momentum laws?


If an X amount of fuel is being forcibly ejected at hypersonic velocity out of the rocket system, then this huge amount of momentum MUST be balanced in the resulting equation.

The fact that the rocket MUST be propelled (equal and opposite momentum) should come as no surprise.

First off the only time there would be equal and opposite momentum is if the rocket is flying in the atmosphere. When in space the atmosphere would not exist and the rocket would have only the exhaust as an opposite momentum. This wouldn't be enough so the deflector would only be deployed when in space because it would offer the required opposite momentum because the exhaust could then push against the deflector. Get my point? I think it will work, I may patent it.
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chtwrone

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  • Well done NASA - 12 men on the moon and back again
Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2015, 01:18:51 PM »
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 12:42:50 PM
Quote from: chtwrone on October 28, 2015, 12:19:57 PM
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 11:43:07 AM
PaPa is absolutely correct!!!! No one can really believe in all honestly that a rocket propels itself in space by pushing on its own exhaust gas. Just letting that thought enter your mind is preposterous. The exhaust gas molecules leaving the combustion chamber and entering the vacuum of space never slows down and never collides with any outside objects. Any force at all from the exhaust is rapidly moving away from the rocket as fast as it can go. There is no way for that exhaust force to stick around long enough to return any force to the rocket that can be used for propulsion. Any force from the exhaust will be carried off into the far corners of space as soon as it leaves the rocket nozzle. This is also known as Joule Expansion. Remember that as soon as the nozzle is opened, the combustion chamber becomes part of the vacuum of space and is subject to its laws. A closed chamber is under pressure but not an open one. If rockets truly work in space, it is definitely not because they push against their own feces. Try it, go take a dump and see if you get lifted off the ground.


Sorry Yendor, but Papa Legba is absolutely INCORRECT!!!!


Yendor, at this stage I am only looking at a rocket system's operation within the atmosphere, as others are dealing with propulsion in a vacuum on other threads.

Do you agree, that in my first post, I have established that the fuel, which was previously stationary within the fuel tanks, has now been given a huge amount of momentum force, as it is being ignited and forcibly ejected out of the engine nozzles?

Yes or no?


If a rocket gets propelled by pushing on it's own exhaust than if a large shield or deflector was tied on the back of the rocket and used for the exhaust to push against, it should work really well and the rocket should go a hellin'. Like this masterpiece I drew for you. Wouldn't this work better than only pushing against the exhaust there would be a solid wall to push against?




The fact that you even came up with this analogy, shows beyond all doubt your COMPLETE lack of understanding of how a rocket is propelled due to momentum laws.

You lamely ask why a rocket shouldn't 'go a hellin', because of the proposition that your deflector is acting like a solid wall to push against?

Unfortunately, your 'solid wall' (deflector) is only going to act as a brake due to the fact that its still attached to the rocket. In effect, the only thing your deflector is going to do, is to transfer the momentum of the burnt fuel back onto the rocket system.

Instead of displaying some sense of intelligence to the rest of us on the thread, you've only shot yourself in the foot. A very nice 'own goal' is was too, lol.


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Yendor

  • 1676
Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2015, 01:45:51 PM »
Quote from: chtwrone on October 28, 2015, 01:18:51 PM
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 12:42:50 PM
Quote from: chtwrone on October 28, 2015, 12:19:57 PM
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 11:43:07 AM
PaPa is absolutely correct!!!! No one can really believe in all honestly that a rocket propels itself in space by pushing on its own exhaust gas. Just letting that thought enter your mind is preposterous. The exhaust gas molecules leaving the combustion chamber and entering the vacuum of space never slows down and never collides with any outside objects. Any force at all from the exhaust is rapidly moving away from the rocket as fast as it can go. There is no way for that exhaust force to stick around long enough to return any force to the rocket that can be used for propulsion. Any force from the exhaust will be carried off into the far corners of space as soon as it leaves the rocket nozzle. This is also known as Joule Expansion. Remember that as soon as the nozzle is opened, the combustion chamber becomes part of the vacuum of space and is subject to its laws. A closed chamber is under pressure but not an open one. If rockets truly work in space, it is definitely not because they push against their own feces. Try it, go take a dump and see if you get lifted off the ground.


Sorry Yendor, but Papa Legba is absolutely INCORRECT!!!!


Yendor, at this stage I am only looking at a rocket system's operation within the atmosphere, as others are dealing with propulsion in a vacuum on other threads.

Do you agree, that in my first post, I have established that the fuel, which was previously stationary within the fuel tanks, has now been given a huge amount of momentum force, as it is being ignited and forcibly ejected out of the engine nozzles?

Yes or no?


If a rocket gets propelled by pushing on it's own exhaust than if a large shield or deflector was tied on the back of the rocket and used for the exhaust to push against, it should work really well and the rocket should go a hellin'. Like this masterpiece I drew for you. Wouldn't this work better than only pushing against the exhaust there would be a solid wall to push against?




The fact that you even came up with this analogy, shows beyond all doubt your COMPLETE lack of understanding of how a rocket is propelled due to momentum laws.

You lamely ask why a rocket shouldn't 'go a hellin', because of the proposition that your deflector is acting like a solid wall to push against?

Unfortunately, your 'solid wall' (deflector) is only going to act as a brake due to the fact that its still attached to the rocket. In effect, the only thing your deflector is going to do, is to transfer the momentum of the burnt fuel back onto the rocket system.

Instead of displaying some sense of intelligence to the rest of us on the thread, you've only shot yourself in the foot. A very nice 'own goal' is was too, lol.

Really, so you are saying that my deflector wouldn't work. I think you are wrong. If a rocket can propel itself by pushing on its own exhaust that is rushing out the nozzle at supersonic speeds, then it can certainly help by having the exhaust hit something solid to push against. This way it would be carrying the solid wall along with it at all times. It would work like when a swimmer pushes off the side of a pool for momentum. This type of device would allow him to push off any time he wants. He wouldn't have to wait until he got to a wall to push off from.
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chtwrone

  • 443
  • Well done NASA - 12 men on the moon and back again
Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2015, 01:51:30 PM »
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 01:45:51 PM
Quote from: chtwrone on October 28, 2015, 01:18:51 PM
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 12:42:50 PM
Quote from: chtwrone on October 28, 2015, 12:19:57 PM
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 11:43:07 AM
PaPa is absolutely correct!!!! No one can really believe in all honestly that a rocket propels itself in space by pushing on its own exhaust gas. Just letting that thought enter your mind is preposterous. The exhaust gas molecules leaving the combustion chamber and entering the vacuum of space never slows down and never collides with any outside objects. Any force at all from the exhaust is rapidly moving away from the rocket as fast as it can go. There is no way for that exhaust force to stick around long enough to return any force to the rocket that can be used for propulsion. Any force from the exhaust will be carried off into the far corners of space as soon as it leaves the rocket nozzle. This is also known as Joule Expansion. Remember that as soon as the nozzle is opened, the combustion chamber becomes part of the vacuum of space and is subject to its laws. A closed chamber is under pressure but not an open one. If rockets truly work in space, it is definitely not because they push against their own feces. Try it, go take a dump and see if you get lifted off the ground.


Sorry Yendor, but Papa Legba is absolutely INCORRECT!!!!


Yendor, at this stage I am only looking at a rocket system's operation within the atmosphere, as others are dealing with propulsion in a vacuum on other threads.

Do you agree, that in my first post, I have established that the fuel, which was previously stationary within the fuel tanks, has now been given a huge amount of momentum force, as it is being ignited and forcibly ejected out of the engine nozzles?

Yes or no?


If a rocket gets propelled by pushing on it's own exhaust than if a large shield or deflector was tied on the back of the rocket and used for the exhaust to push against, it should work really well and the rocket should go a hellin'. Like this masterpiece I drew for you. Wouldn't this work better than only pushing against the exhaust there would be a solid wall to push against?




The fact that you even came up with this analogy, shows beyond all doubt your COMPLETE lack of understanding of how a rocket is propelled due to momentum laws.

You lamely ask why a rocket shouldn't 'go a hellin', because of the proposition that your deflector is acting like a solid wall to push against?

Unfortunately, your 'solid wall' (deflector) is only going to act as a brake due to the fact that its still attached to the rocket. In effect, the only thing your deflector is going to do, is to transfer the momentum of the burnt fuel back onto the rocket system.

Instead of displaying some sense of intelligence to the rest of us on the thread, you've only shot yourself in the foot. A very nice 'own goal' is was too, lol.

Really, so you are saying that my deflector wouldn't work. I think you are wrong. If a rocket can propel itself by pushing on its own exhaust that is rushing out the nozzle at supersonic speeds, then it can certainly help by having the exhaust hit something solid to push against. This way it would be carrying the solid wall along with it at all times. It would work like when a swimmer pushes off the side of a pool for momentum. This type of device would allow him to push off any time he wants. He wouldn't have to wait until he got to a wall to push off from.



A rocket DOES NOT derive momentum due to anything external of the system.

If this is actually what your opinion is though, then obviously you also think that a cannonball has imparted momentum (recoil) onto the cannon due to something external of the cannon system?

Is this actually what you're saying?
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Papa Legba

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2015, 02:02:45 PM »
Quote from: chtwrone on October 28, 2015, 01:51:30 PM
If this is actually what your opinion is though, then obviously you also think that a cannonball has imparted momentum (recoil) onto the cannon due to something external of the cannon system?

You're genuinely insane, aren't you?
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Yendor

  • 1676
Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2015, 03:06:46 PM »
Quote from: chtwrone on October 28, 2015, 01:51:30 PM
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 01:45:51 PM
Quote from: chtwrone on October 28, 2015, 01:18:51 PM
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 12:42:50 PM
Quote from: chtwrone on October 28, 2015, 12:19:57 PM
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 11:43:07 AM
PaPa is absolutely correct!!!! No one can really believe in all honestly that a rocket propels itself in space by pushing on its own exhaust gas. Just letting that thought enter your mind is preposterous. The exhaust gas molecules leaving the combustion chamber and entering the vacuum of space never slows down and never collides with any outside objects. Any force at all from the exhaust is rapidly moving away from the rocket as fast as it can go. There is no way for that exhaust force to stick around long enough to return any force to the rocket that can be used for propulsion. Any force from the exhaust will be carried off into the far corners of space as soon as it leaves the rocket nozzle. This is also known as Joule Expansion. Remember that as soon as the nozzle is opened, the combustion chamber becomes part of the vacuum of space and is subject to its laws. A closed chamber is under pressure but not an open one. If rockets truly work in space, it is definitely not because they push against their own feces. Try it, go take a dump and see if you get lifted off the ground.


Sorry Yendor, but Papa Legba is absolutely INCORRECT!!!!


Yendor, at this stage I am only looking at a rocket system's operation within the atmosphere, as others are dealing with propulsion in a vacuum on other threads.

Do you agree, that in my first post, I have established that the fuel, which was previously stationary within the fuel tanks, has now been given a huge amount of momentum force, as it is being ignited and forcibly ejected out of the engine nozzles?

Yes or no?


If a rocket gets propelled by pushing on it's own exhaust than if a large shield or deflector was tied on the back of the rocket and used for the exhaust to push against, it should work really well and the rocket should go a hellin'. Like this masterpiece I drew for you. Wouldn't this work better than only pushing against the exhaust there would be a solid wall to push against?




The fact that you even came up with this analogy, shows beyond all doubt your COMPLETE lack of understanding of how a rocket is propelled due to momentum laws.

You lamely ask why a rocket shouldn't 'go a hellin', because of the proposition that your deflector is acting like a solid wall to push against?

Unfortunately, your 'solid wall' (deflector) is only going to act as a brake due to the fact that its still attached to the rocket. In effect, the only thing your deflector is going to do, is to transfer the momentum of the burnt fuel back onto the rocket system.

Instead of displaying some sense of intelligence to the rest of us on the thread, you've only shot yourself in the foot. A very nice 'own goal' is was too, lol.

Really, so you are saying that my deflector wouldn't work. I think you are wrong. If a rocket can propel itself by pushing on its own exhaust that is rushing out the nozzle at supersonic speeds, then it can certainly help by having the exhaust hit something solid to push against. This way it would be carrying the solid wall along with it at all times. It would work like when a swimmer pushes off the side of a pool for momentum. This type of device would allow him to push off any time he wants. He wouldn't have to wait until he got to a wall to push off from.



A rocket DOES NOT derive momentum due to anything external of the system.

If this is actually what your opinion is though, then obviously you also think that a cannonball has imparted momentum (recoil) onto the cannon due to something external of the cannon system?

Is this actually what you're saying?

That is another one of those hair brain ideas people have, rockets work like cannons and it is the recoil that makes rockets go. You can't compare a cannonball or a bullet to the exhaust leaving the back end of a rocket. cannons recoil because there is an explosion inside the chamber and the object of the least resistance tries to get the hell out of the way. But, the ball has encountered something on the way out the end of the barrel, the 14.7 psi atmospheric pressure inside the barrel. It has to force it out of the way before it can leave the barrel. however, there is another obstacle in the way, the 14.7 psi atmospheric pressure outside the barrel. All this atmospheric pressure creates an opposite force on the ball that is trying to keep the ball right where it was before the explosion. While this is happening, the cannon starts to recoil or is  rolling backwards because it is on wheels. It just so happens the force of the explosion is much greater than the force of the atmosphere and the ball is eventually gets spit out of the cannon. When this happens the weaker force, that was pushing against the ball, immediately disappears and the cannon will stop recoiling and roll back where it was. If it was mounted so it wouldn't roll, it would not move. cannons with short barrels don't recoil as much as cannons with long barrels. Did you watch the video sceptimatic showed? The air cylinder took off like a rocket because of one thing, the atmospheric pressure of 14.7 psi everywhere at sea level. The air was trying to leave the cylinder but the atmosphere was holding it back. the two forces were trying their best to win over each other. It would look a boxing match. If there was no atmosphere pressure there would be only one force and the air cylinder would simply sit there and the air would rapidly flow out because there would be nothing to hold it back.

So YES, I proclaim a cannonball causes recoil on the cannon due to something external of the cannon system, the atmosphere. Surely you have to realize that. If the cannon had no ball in it you would only get a very small recoil. That is because only the escaping gases would run up against the atmosphere and not the much greater mass of a cannonball.
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legion

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2015, 03:07:27 PM »
Quote from: chtwrone on October 28, 2015, 01:18:51 PM
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 12:42:50 PM
Quote from: chtwrone on October 28, 2015, 12:19:57 PM
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 11:43:07 AM
PaPa is absolutely correct!!!! No one can really believe in all honestly that a rocket propels itself in space by pushing on its own exhaust gas. Just letting that thought enter your mind is preposterous. The exhaust gas molecules leaving the combustion chamber and entering the vacuum of space never slows down and never collides with any outside objects. Any force at all from the exhaust is rapidly moving away from the rocket as fast as it can go. There is no way for that exhaust force to stick around long enough to return any force to the rocket that can be used for propulsion. Any force from the exhaust will be carried off into the far corners of space as soon as it leaves the rocket nozzle. This is also known as Joule Expansion. Remember that as soon as the nozzle is opened, the combustion chamber becomes part of the vacuum of space and is subject to its laws. A closed chamber is under pressure but not an open one. If rockets truly work in space, it is definitely not because they push against their own feces. Try it, go take a dump and see if you get lifted off the ground.


Sorry Yendor, but Papa Legba is absolutely INCORRECT!!!!


Yendor, at this stage I am only looking at a rocket system's operation within the atmosphere, as others are dealing with propulsion in a vacuum on other threads.

Do you agree, that in my first post, I have established that the fuel, which was previously stationary within the fuel tanks, has now been given a huge amount of momentum force, as it is being ignited and forcibly ejected out of the engine nozzles?

Yes or no?


If a rocket gets propelled by pushing on it's own exhaust than if a large shield or deflector was tied on the back of the rocket and used for the exhaust to push against, it should work really well and the rocket should go a hellin'. Like this masterpiece I drew for you. Wouldn't this work better than only pushing against the exhaust there would be a solid wall to push against?




The fact that you even came up with this analogy, shows beyond all doubt your COMPLETE lack of understanding of how a rocket is propelled due to momentum laws.

You lamely ask why a rocket shouldn't 'go a hellin', because of the proposition that your deflector is acting like a solid wall to push against?

Unfortunately, your 'solid wall' (deflector) is only going to act as a brake due to the fact that its still attached to the rocket. In effect, the only thing your deflector is going to do, is to transfer the momentum of the burnt fuel back onto the rocket system.

Instead of displaying some sense of intelligence to the rest of us on the thread, you've only shot yourself in the foot. A very nice 'own goal' is was too, lol.

Don't ever speak for me.

Fully agree with you Yendor. If the principles espoused by the space cultists were true, your suggestion would make complete sense. But they aren't and it doesn't.
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Papa Legba

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2015, 03:13:27 PM »
You're right, Yendor, but don't get too caught up in their sidetracking bullshit...

I'm gonna do this one last time, so that even the slowest of children can understand.

1) Object A = cannon.

2) Propellant = P.

3) Object B = cannon ball.

Propellant P sits between Objects A & B.

When Propellant P expands between them, Objects A & B are thrust apart.

Simple.


However, with a Rocket:

1) Object A = Rocket.

2) Propellant = P

3) Object B = ?

There is clearly no visible Object B in the rocket example.

But we know that, for thrust to be achieved, Propellant P MUST expand between Two Masses.

So; what non-visible Mass could replace the cannonball as Object B?

The only choice is the enormous, but non-visible Mass of the atmosphere.

If you don't get it after that, then there is truly no hope for you...

I'm looking at you, chtwrone.
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Yendor

  • 1676
Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2015, 03:15:45 PM »
Quote from: legion on October 28, 2015, 03:07:27 PM
Quote from: chtwrone on October 28, 2015, 01:18:51 PM
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 12:42:50 PM
Quote from: chtwrone on October 28, 2015, 12:19:57 PM
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 11:43:07 AM
PaPa is absolutely correct!!!! No one can really believe in all honestly that a rocket propels itself in space by pushing on its own exhaust gas. Just letting that thought enter your mind is preposterous. The exhaust gas molecules leaving the combustion chamber and entering the vacuum of space never slows down and never collides with any outside objects. Any force at all from the exhaust is rapidly moving away from the rocket as fast as it can go. There is no way for that exhaust force to stick around long enough to return any force to the rocket that can be used for propulsion. Any force from the exhaust will be carried off into the far corners of space as soon as it leaves the rocket nozzle. This is also known as Joule Expansion. Remember that as soon as the nozzle is opened, the combustion chamber becomes part of the vacuum of space and is subject to its laws. A closed chamber is under pressure but not an open one. If rockets truly work in space, it is definitely not because they push against their own feces. Try it, go take a dump and see if you get lifted off the ground.


Sorry Yendor, but Papa Legba is absolutely INCORRECT!!!!


Yendor, at this stage I am only looking at a rocket system's operation within the atmosphere, as others are dealing with propulsion in a vacuum on other threads.

Do you agree, that in my first post, I have established that the fuel, which was previously stationary within the fuel tanks, has now been given a huge amount of momentum force, as it is being ignited and forcibly ejected out of the engine nozzles?

Yes or no?


If a rocket gets propelled by pushing on it's own exhaust than if a large shield or deflector was tied on the back of the rocket and used for the exhaust to push against, it should work really well and the rocket should go a hellin'. Like this masterpiece I drew for you. Wouldn't this work better than only pushing against the exhaust there would be a solid wall to push against?




The fact that you even came up with this analogy, shows beyond all doubt your COMPLETE lack of understanding of how a rocket is propelled due to momentum laws.

You lamely ask why a rocket shouldn't 'go a hellin', because of the proposition that your deflector is acting like a solid wall to push against?

Unfortunately, your 'solid wall' (deflector) is only going to act as a brake due to the fact that its still attached to the rocket. In effect, the only thing your deflector is going to do, is to transfer the momentum of the burnt fuel back onto the rocket system.

Instead of displaying some sense of intelligence to the rest of us on the thread, you've only shot yourself in the foot. A very nice 'own goal' is was too, lol.

Don't ever speak for me.

Fully agree with you Yendor. If the principles espoused by the space cultists were true, your suggestion would make complete sense. But they aren't and it doesn't.

I know, right. I wonder why NASA didn't think of this first. It should greatly enhance their space travel. I feel smart.
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sokarul

  • 19303
  • Extra Racist
Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2015, 03:15:53 PM »
"IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B"
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Quote from: Shifter on July 05, 2020, 09:53:30 AM
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Papa Legba

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2015, 03:54:29 PM »
Just for 'special needs kid' sock-arul:

1) Object A = cannon.

2) Propellant = P.

3) Object B = cannon ball.

Propellant P sits between Objects A & B.

When Propellant P expands between them, Objects A & B are thrust apart.

Simple.


However, with a Rocket:

1) Object A = Rocket.

2) Propellant = P

3) Object B = ?

There is clearly no visible Object B in the rocket example.

But we know that, for thrust to be achieved, Propellant P MUST expand between Two Masses.

So; what non-visible Mass could replace the cannonball as Object B?

The only choice is the enormous, but non-visible Mass of the atmosphere.

Thus we get:

1) Object A = Rocket.

2) Propellant = P.

3) Object B = Atmosphere.

And thrust can be produced.

It's not hard to see...

But of course, as one of the most relentless trolls on here, sock-arul will still disagree.

That is his problem.
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sokarul

  • 19303
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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2015, 04:37:54 PM »
Why do guns recoil when firing blanks?
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Quote from: Shifter on July 05, 2020, 09:53:30 AM
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frenat

  • 3752
Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2015, 04:58:05 PM »
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 03:15:45 PM
Quote from: legion on October 28, 2015, 03:07:27 PM
Quote from: chtwrone on October 28, 2015, 01:18:51 PM
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 12:42:50 PM
Quote from: chtwrone on October 28, 2015, 12:19:57 PM
Quote from: Yendor on October 28, 2015, 11:43:07 AM
PaPa is absolutely correct!!!! No one can really believe in all honestly that a rocket propels itself in space by pushing on its own exhaust gas. Just letting that thought enter your mind is preposterous. The exhaust gas molecules leaving the combustion chamber and entering the vacuum of space never slows down and never collides with any outside objects. Any force at all from the exhaust is rapidly moving away from the rocket as fast as it can go. There is no way for that exhaust force to stick around long enough to return any force to the rocket that can be used for propulsion. Any force from the exhaust will be carried off into the far corners of space as soon as it leaves the rocket nozzle. This is also known as Joule Expansion. Remember that as soon as the nozzle is opened, the combustion chamber becomes part of the vacuum of space and is subject to its laws. A closed chamber is under pressure but not an open one. If rockets truly work in space, it is definitely not because they push against their own feces. Try it, go take a dump and see if you get lifted off the ground.


Sorry Yendor, but Papa Legba is absolutely INCORRECT!!!!


Yendor, at this stage I am only looking at a rocket system's operation within the atmosphere, as others are dealing with propulsion in a vacuum on other threads.

Do you agree, that in my first post, I have established that the fuel, which was previously stationary within the fuel tanks, has now been given a huge amount of momentum force, as it is being ignited and forcibly ejected out of the engine nozzles?

Yes or no?


If a rocket gets propelled by pushing on it's own exhaust than if a large shield or deflector was tied on the back of the rocket and used for the exhaust to push against, it should work really well and the rocket should go a hellin'. Like this masterpiece I drew for you. Wouldn't this work better than only pushing against the exhaust there would be a solid wall to push against?




The fact that you even came up with this analogy, shows beyond all doubt your COMPLETE lack of understanding of how a rocket is propelled due to momentum laws.

You lamely ask why a rocket shouldn't 'go a hellin', because of the proposition that your deflector is acting like a solid wall to push against?

Unfortunately, your 'solid wall' (deflector) is only going to act as a brake due to the fact that its still attached to the rocket. In effect, the only thing your deflector is going to do, is to transfer the momentum of the burnt fuel back onto the rocket system.

Instead of displaying some sense of intelligence to the rest of us on the thread, you've only shot yourself in the foot. A very nice 'own goal' is was too, lol.

Don't ever speak for me.

Fully agree with you Yendor. If the principles espoused by the space cultists were true, your suggestion would make complete sense. But they aren't and it doesn't.

I know, right. I wonder why NASA didn't think of this first. It should greatly enhance their space travel. I feel smart.
By being attached to the rocket, the exhaust will impart a force, transferred to the rocket, opposite its travel, cancelling out its movement.
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frenat

  • 3752
Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2015, 04:58:46 PM »
Why are air-to-air missiles faster and with a longer range when fired from a higher altitude?
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Papa Legba

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2015, 05:39:16 PM »
Because missiles, like planes, can be optimised for the air-pressure at the altitudes they're most likely to be used at.

But they can never be optimised for a vacuum, because they won't work in one.

I've already gone through all this on another thread btw, so don't intend to repeat myself for a proven troll & liar like yourself.

This thread is for space-tards to make fools of themselves by claiming that the fuel is object B in my explanation of how recoil is produced; either do so or troll elsewhere.

Now what's your prissy little gaylord sign-off again?

Oh, right - 'thanks for the humour!'
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frenat

  • 3752
Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2015, 06:03:50 PM »
Quote from: Papa Smurf on October 28, 2015, 05:39:16 PM
Because missiles, like planes, can be optimised for the air-pressure at the altitudes they're most likely to be used at.
Nope.  Because their performance increases as outside air pressure decreases.  If they needed atmosphere to push off of then they should barely move at 30,000 feet compared to sea level and their performance continues to increase as they get higher

Quote from: Papa Smurf on October 28, 2015, 05:39:16 PM
But they can never be optimised for a vacuum, because they won't work in one.
unsupported opinion.
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" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

Quote from: Papa Smurf on October 28, 2015, 05:39:16 PM
I've already gone through all this on another thread btw, so don't intend to repeat myself for a proven troll & liar someone who ask questions I refuse to answer like yourself.  I'll continue to sling insults because that's all I have.
Yet you still do.

Quote from: Papa Smurf on October 28, 2015, 05:39:16 PM
This thread is for space-tards to make fools of themselves by claiming that the fuel is object B in my explanation of how recoil is produced because I repeatedlly ignore the fact that fuel has mass too; either do so or troll ask questions elsewhere.

Now what's your prissy little gaylord sign-off that annoys me again?

Oh, right - 'thanks for the humour!'
You keep providing it!  You're really threatened by people having different opinions than you, aren't you?
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sokarul

  • 19303
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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2015, 06:07:43 PM »
Quote from: sokarul on October 28, 2015, 04:37:54 PM
Why do guns recoil when firing blanks?
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Quote from: Shifter on July 05, 2020, 09:53:30 AM
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Papa Legba

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2015, 06:11:01 PM »
Quote from: sokarul on October 28, 2015, 04:37:54 PM
Why do guns recoil when firing blanks?

Yendor's already answered that; try actually reading the threads you're trolling, retard.

Lying shitposting troll Frenat: thanks for the prissy gaylord humour!
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sokarul

  • 19303
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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2015, 06:16:14 PM »
So you agree with this?
"So YES, I proclaim a cannonball causes recoil on the cannon due to something external of the cannon system, the atmosphere. Surely you have to realize that. If the cannon had no ball in it you would only get a very small recoil. That is because only the escaping gases would run up against the atmosphere and not the much greater mass of a cannonball. "

So then back to the other question, how does the atmosphere transfer a force to the cannon through the cannon ball?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 06:33:02 PM by sokarul »
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Quote from: Shifter on July 05, 2020, 09:53:30 AM
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frenat

  • 3752
Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2015, 06:18:49 PM »
Quote from: Papa Smurf on October 28, 2015, 06:11:01 PM
Lying shitposting troll Person I'm threatened by because they have a different opinion, Frenat: thanks for the prissy gaylord more stuff I'm threatened by so I'll throw out more insults, humour! facts!
You're really threatened by people having different opinions than you, aren't you?
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