Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #60 on: October 27, 2015, 02:12:20 AM »
We can't "look at the speed of evolution" because we cannot look at evolution. Speciation, however, happens quite rapidly.

Facts, even though they may make a different viewpoint look bad from time to time, does not mean someone is paranoid. If you believe NASA is lying to us about the shape of our planet, I dare say you haven't the right to point at other's alleged paranoia. Speaking of which, how can you pick and choose what scientists lie to you about? Either you believe what they say or you don't. It can't just be what feels good and sounds good or is fun to believe.
I believe when tehre is a motive for a conspiracy. It's just blind paranoia to do anything different. NASA would lie if space travel was impossible: no one would lie, especially abotu readily verifiable things like evolution. We can look at evolution just fine: Mendel did, famously.

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This article may satisfy you better: http://creation.com/chromosome-2-fusion-1 and then there's a sequel to that one: http://creation.com/chromosome-2-fusion-2
You linked to those before. Simply put, they misrepresent several fundamentals of evolution, as well as the argument itself. As for Haldane's dilemma, he admitted his calculations were nonsense, so you've got all you need to know about the honesty of anyone who uses that arguemtn already.

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What I tried to say earlier is that it's God's morality because it's based on who he is. It defines his character because he IS love. Love defines the morality. Good defines the morality. Not the other way around. Is that more clear? The only way anyone can define a law is by deciding what is good and bad based on how it suits them and gets them where they want to go. It would be based on the chemical reactions in their brains, but there would be no objective good or bad for any logical reason. Yet we will continue to give to charities, and firemen will continue to save babies. Because we know that good goes beyond feelings in our brains, don't we? But if morality is subjective, it has no authority over us. We can't rightly say that the murderer or rapist is wrong, because ultimately, there is no wrong.
It sounds like you're just using the fact God is separate to humans: but of course, humans can easily disregard him. Social morality is well understood (Doing good because to do otherwise would wreck everything we've built), and even beyond that our morality is notably different to God's. It's easy to disbelieve than steal, or murder, or lie... And there's no prohibition against fornication and other more esoteric sins.

Beyond that though, the most important this is: how do you define objective? Without mentioning God (otherwise what you say is circular), what is it that's required for a system of morality to be objective?
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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #61 on: October 27, 2015, 03:12:40 PM »
We can't "look at the speed of evolution" because we cannot look at evolution. Speciation, however, happens quite rapidly.

Facts, even though they may make a different viewpoint look bad from time to time, does not mean someone is paranoid. If you believe NASA is lying to us about the shape of our planet, I dare say you haven't the right to point at other's alleged paranoia. Speaking of which, how can you pick and choose what scientists lie to you about? Either you believe what they say or you don't. It can't just be what feels good and sounds good or is fun to believe.
I believe when tehre is a motive for a conspiracy. It's just blind paranoia to do anything different. NASA would lie if space travel was impossible: no one would lie, especially abotu readily verifiable things like evolution. We can look at evolution just fine: Mendel did, famously.

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This article may satisfy you better: http://creation.com/chromosome-2-fusion-1 and then there's a sequel to that one: http://creation.com/chromosome-2-fusion-2
You linked to those before. Simply put, they misrepresent several fundamentals of evolution, as well as the argument itself. As for Haldane's dilemma, he admitted his calculations were nonsense, so you've got all you need to know about the honesty of anyone who uses that arguemtn already.

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What I tried to say earlier is that it's God's morality because it's based on who he is. It defines his character because he IS love. Love defines the morality. Good defines the morality. Not the other way around. Is that more clear? The only way anyone can define a law is by deciding what is good and bad based on how it suits them and gets them where they want to go. It would be based on the chemical reactions in their brains, but there would be no objective good or bad for any logical reason. Yet we will continue to give to charities, and firemen will continue to save babies. Because we know that good goes beyond feelings in our brains, don't we? But if morality is subjective, it has no authority over us. We can't rightly say that the murderer or rapist is wrong, because ultimately, there is no wrong.
It sounds like you're just using the fact God is separate to humans: but of course, humans can easily disregard him. Social morality is well understood (Doing good because to do otherwise would wreck everything we've built), and even beyond that our morality is notably different to God's. It's easy to disbelieve than steal, or murder, or lie... And there's no prohibition against fornication and other more esoteric sins.

Beyond that though, the most important this is: how do you define objective? Without mentioning God (otherwise what you say is circular), what is it that's required for a system of morality to be objective?

The discovery of the principles of recombination was Gregor Mendel’s great contribution to the science of genetics. Mendel showed that while traits might be hidden for a generation they were not usually lost, and when new traits appeared it was because their genetic factors had been there all along. Recombination makes it possible for there to be limited variation within the created kinds. But it is limited because virtually all of the variations are produced by a reshuffling of the genes that are already there. Mendel did not see a kind shift to a different kind. Again, there is a difference between changes within a species and changes across species, changing a kind into a different kind. But if you refuse to see my point there, we should probably agree to disagree, as it's clearly not getting anywhere useful.

Can you give me an example of how they misrepresent evolution? I'd be happy to clarify any confusion in detail, if you wish.

All I'm really trying to say regarding objective morality is that for morality to be objective, there has to be a real right and wrong. It wouldn't be an illusion based on chemicals, feelings, whatever, it would be based on the fact that to murder is wrong, just the same as 1+1=2. There is a truth that goes beyond illusions and chemicals that say "this feels good, so it must be good." Indeed, there are certain immediate gratifications that have unpleasant consequences, such as the kind you mentioned when you mentioned fornication. Yes we certainly can disregard certain rules that God sets up for our own good, but we all still reap the consequences. Disease, unwanted pregnancies, emotional hardships, are all consequences for being promiscuous, but obviously we care more about our immediate gratification in a lot of circumstances. Certain sins are not as obvious as others, but there are consequences for any that God warns us against. Whether or not we disregard them, they still exist.

So just to be clear on your question, I'll give you an example. I'll mention the firefighters saving babies. They save babies because it's right, because without them we'd fall apart (what we built?), or because it feels good? And now I have another question for you: Why would we want to build whatever it is we've built, evolutionarily speaking?

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #62 on: October 27, 2015, 03:39:35 PM »
The discovery of the principles of recombination was Gregor Mendel’s great contribution to the science of genetics. Mendel showed that while traits might be hidden for a generation they were not usually lost, and when new traits appeared it was because their genetic factors had been there all along. Recombination makes it possible for there to be limited variation within the created kinds. But it is limited because virtually all of the variations are produced by a reshuffling of the genes that are already there. Mendel did not see a kind shift to a different kind. Again, there is a difference between changes within a species and changes across species, changing a kind into a different kind. But if you refuse to see my point there, we should probably agree to disagree, as it's clearly not getting anywhere useful.
Small changes add up, it's that simple. He didn't see a change to a different kind because if he had, that would disprove the theory of evolution. What he saw was small-scale changes, and certain traits becoming more pronounced, while others were less so: this is the definition of evolution. On a larger scale, what do you imagine would happen?

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Can you give me an example of how they misrepresent evolution? I'd be happy to clarify any confusion in detail, if you wish.
There's no confusion. They're very clear. The first link treats the urban legend of junk DNA as though it was a serious scientific proposition (you have to wonder why they distrust biologists so much up until that statement), and there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how evolution is gradual, and how such traits are passed on: and it focuses on a tellingly weak case of the argument. The fact humans have a fused chromosome at all (as we undeniably do) while all the great apes, not just chimps, have one pair extra...

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All I'm really trying to say regarding objective morality is that for morality to be objective, there has to be a real right and wrong. It wouldn't be an illusion based on chemicals, feelings, whatever, it would be based on the fact that to murder is wrong, just the same as 1+1=2. There is a truth that goes beyond illusions and chemicals that say "this feels good, so it must be good." Indeed, there are certain immediate gratifications that have unpleasant consequences, such as the kind you mentioned when you mentioned fornication. Yes we certainly can disregard certain rules that God sets up for our own good, but we all still reap the consequences. Disease, unwanted pregnancies, emotional hardships, are all consequences for being promiscuous, but obviously we care more about our immediate gratification in a lot of circumstances. Certain sins are not as obvious as others, but there are consequences for any that God warns us against. Whether or not we disregard them, they still exist.
I'm easily capable of working on the Sabbath: defying the Ten Commandments.
I'm not sure why you're decided the only possible system of morality is based on chemicals/feelings. Certainly, it's thought of in those terms: that's how humans think of everything, no matter which worldview you adhere to. It seems that any axiom-based system of morality adheres to the requirements you set up; I just define "Suffering is bad," to be a moral statement: and that's not going to alter. Even if I choose to disregard it, it won't alter: and it defines right and wrong.
What makes that any different to defining, say "God's commands are good?"

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So just to be clear on your question, I'll give you an example. I'll mention the firefighters saving babies. They save babies because it's right, because without them we'd fall apart (what we built?), or because it feels good? And now I have another question for you: Why would we want to build whatever it is we've built, evolutionarily speaking?
It's rarely just one reason. They'd save babies because it is good for humanity: it's doing good. Certainly, this would feel good: they'd be paid, applauded etc, but even for all of this, the reason such an act is admired is because it is understood to be good: beneficial.
Evolutionary speaking, life is for living: we're to survive, and survive well. We're to live, and make life good; that's the only 'command' of evolution.
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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #63 on: October 28, 2015, 02:33:16 PM »
The discovery of the principles of recombination was Gregor Mendel’s great contribution to the science of genetics. Mendel showed that while traits might be hidden for a generation they were not usually lost, and when new traits appeared it was because their genetic factors had been there all along. Recombination makes it possible for there to be limited variation within the created kinds. But it is limited because virtually all of the variations are produced by a reshuffling of the genes that are already there. Mendel did not see a kind shift to a different kind. Again, there is a difference between changes within a species and changes across species, changing a kind into a different kind. But if you refuse to see my point there, we should probably agree to disagree, as it's clearly not getting anywhere useful.
Small changes add up, it's that simple. He didn't see a change to a different kind because if he had, that would disprove the theory of evolution. What he saw was small-scale changes, and certain traits becoming more pronounced, while others were less so: this is the definition of evolution. On a larger scale, what do you imagine would happen?

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Can you give me an example of how they misrepresent evolution? I'd be happy to clarify any confusion in detail, if you wish.
There's no confusion. They're very clear. The first link treats the urban legend of junk DNA as though it was a serious scientific proposition (you have to wonder why they distrust biologists so much up until that statement), and there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how evolution is gradual, and how such traits are passed on: and it focuses on a tellingly weak case of the argument. The fact humans have a fused chromosome at all (as we undeniably do) while all the great apes, not just chimps, have one pair extra...

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All I'm really trying to say regarding objective morality is that for morality to be objective, there has to be a real right and wrong. It wouldn't be an illusion based on chemicals, feelings, whatever, it would be based on the fact that to murder is wrong, just the same as 1+1=2. There is a truth that goes beyond illusions and chemicals that say "this feels good, so it must be good." Indeed, there are certain immediate gratifications that have unpleasant consequences, such as the kind you mentioned when you mentioned fornication. Yes we certainly can disregard certain rules that God sets up for our own good, but we all still reap the consequences. Disease, unwanted pregnancies, emotional hardships, are all consequences for being promiscuous, but obviously we care more about our immediate gratification in a lot of circumstances. Certain sins are not as obvious as others, but there are consequences for any that God warns us against. Whether or not we disregard them, they still exist.
I'm easily capable of working on the Sabbath: defying the Ten Commandments.
I'm not sure why you're decided the only possible system of morality is based on chemicals/feelings. Certainly, it's thought of in those terms: that's how humans think of everything, no matter which worldview you adhere to. It seems that any axiom-based system of morality adheres to the requirements you set up; I just define "Suffering is bad," to be a moral statement: and that's not going to alter. Even if I choose to disregard it, it won't alter: and it defines right and wrong.
What makes that any different to defining, say "God's commands are good?"

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So just to be clear on your question, I'll give you an example. I'll mention the firefighters saving babies. They save babies because it's right, because without them we'd fall apart (what we built?), or because it feels good? And now I have another question for you: Why would we want to build whatever it is we've built, evolutionarily speaking?
It's rarely just one reason. They'd save babies because it is good for humanity: it's doing good. Certainly, this would feel good: they'd be paid, applauded etc, but even for all of this, the reason such an act is admired is because it is understood to be good: beneficial.
Evolutionary speaking, life is for living: we're to survive, and survive well. We're to live, and make life good; that's the only 'command' of evolution.

Small changes within kinds is not contrary to what creationists think. It's that an animal can transform into a different animal that we have a problem with. On a larger scale of small changes, there would be a large variety of species within the same kind of animal. For instance, dogs descended from wolves. But wolves, dingos, chihuahuas, and foxes are all part of the canine family.

Evolutionarily speaking, what is "good" and why are we to do it? Why are we to "make life good"?

Yes, you can work on the Sabbath, the main point of that rule is to rest, refresh yourself, and to make time to connect with friends and family. Wanna guess what would happen if you never did that? Suffering is bad generally speaking, but sometimes it can also be good. Ultimately, if this answers your question, God's commands try to eliminate unnecessary suffering. But he knows better, so sometimes we learn that only after following him.

I know you said you already read this article, but I really don't think I posted it before. It's very technical, and there's too much to quote, but it deals with the chromosome issue in more detail. If you don't wish to check it out, that's fine, but you might be interested in double checking whether or not you actually saw this one. http://creation.com/chromosome-2-fusion-1 I have nothing more to say on that subject.

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JimmyTheCrab

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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #64 on: October 29, 2015, 06:56:33 AM »
Quote from: mikeman7918
a single photon can pass through two sluts

Quote from: Chicken Fried Clucker
if Donald Trump stuck his penis in me after trying on clothes I would have that date and time burned in my head.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #65 on: October 29, 2015, 07:46:37 AM »
CrabbyJim, you know that is low content.  Please cease this type of posting.  Thanks. 

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JimmyTheCrab

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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #66 on: October 29, 2015, 09:05:33 AM »
CrabbyJim, you know that is low content.
A picture can be worth a thousand words.

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  Please cease this type of posting.  Thanks.
I will if you will.  Deal?
Quote from: mikeman7918
a single photon can pass through two sluts

Quote from: Chicken Fried Clucker
if Donald Trump stuck his penis in me after trying on clothes I would have that date and time burned in my head.

Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #67 on: October 29, 2015, 10:53:09 AM »


So you're trying to get a rise out of me, huh? Sorry you're so emotionally distraught about creationists and ultimately God that you feel the need to be rude, nasty, and try to pick a fight. Whatever happened to you that led you here, that is really too bad and I'm sorry for you. I won't be wasting my time with emotional bickering and insult throwing though. You might need to find another hobby.

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Jadyyn

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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #68 on: October 29, 2015, 11:24:18 AM »
JimmyTheCrab, I have actually a serious question...

Since you appear to know a lot about Creationists and Evolutionists, please explain this to me, as I don't get it...

As a Bible believer and Creationist, I tell Evolutionists that God (YHWH) is my father both physically (from Adam and Eve) and spiritually (being Born-Again).

It tell them that monkeys are their fathers. One of your ancestors was obviously a crab that you proudly and understandably use as your symbol. Most likely, one of your ancestors was a crab on the way from being an amoeba to a monkey to you.

So, I don't understand why, when I tell people what they say they believe they get upset. Could you please clarify?
“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” W.C. Fields.
"The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #69 on: October 29, 2015, 11:56:48 AM »
Small changes within kinds is not contrary to what creationists think. It's that an animal can transform into a different animal that we have a problem with. On a larger scale of small changes, there would be a large variety of species within the same kind of animal. For instance, dogs descended from wolves. But wolves, dingos, chihuahuas, and foxes are all part of the canine family.
That's true: but the fact is, it's incoherent to claim the small changes will magically stop just when they start to add up.

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Evolutionarily speaking, what is "good" and why are we to do it? Why are we to "make life good"?
Strictly evolutionary speaking, because it's for the best for humanity. That's not a matter of good or evil, that's just how evolution works: it's the definition. Those that are able to survive and do what's best last. Humans, being social creatures, do just that,
As for 'what is good?' that's separate to evolution. Evolution explains what's called the conscience (and why it notably departs from God's commands), our ability to reason arrives at morality, and it's purely axiom based: as all morality necessarily is. Acknowledging Euthyphro's dilemma and resolution, your axiom is something along the lines of "God's nature is good." That's something that can't be proven, because you take it to be fundamentally true. You can't suppose a standard of good by which to measure it, you just state that his nature is good.

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Yes, you can work on the Sabbath, the main point of that rule is to rest, refresh yourself, and to make time to connect with friends and family. Wanna guess what would happen if you never did that? Suffering is bad generally speaking, but sometimes it can also be good. Ultimately, if this answers your question, God's commands try to eliminate unnecessary suffering. But he knows better, so sometimes we learn that only after following him.
Sure, but none of that requires setting aside one day.
Even the cases when you mention suffering causing good, that good is typically reducing suffering: like a child who accidentally burns their hand, and learns to do better in future.
But regardless, that's not the point: we're comparing axioms. If I was to derive a system of morality from the axiom "Suffering is bad," and compare it to yours, derived from "God's nature/commands are good," how might we compare them? What is it that would set yours apart or above mine?

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I know you said you already read this article, but I really don't think I posted it before. It's very technical, and there's too much to quote, but it deals with the chromosome issue in more detail.
I did check it out: and it should also be acknowledged the fundamental flaw in that kind of article. Good science is characterized by making it intelligible. If you find an article intended for public readership, that remains drowning in jargon, there's a very good chance either the writer doesn't understand what they're saying, or they're hiding something.

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It tell them that monkeys are their fathers.
Evolution doesn't say that. If anything, we're distant, distant cousins: we share a common ancestor.
In fact, under creationism, we'd be far more closely related: more like brothers, half brothers at least. We share a father, after all.

(Hi Jimmy! Good to be on the same side for once, isn't it?)
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Jadyyn

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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #70 on: October 29, 2015, 01:47:46 PM »
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It tell them that monkeys are their fathers.
Evolution doesn't say that. If anything, we're distant, distant cousins: we share a common ancestor.
In fact, under creationism, we'd be far more closely related: more like brothers, half brothers at least. We share a father, after all.

(Hi Jimmy! Good to be on the same side for once, isn't it?)
The question is ... why are Evolutionists upset when I suggest what they believe - they came from amoebas through "a common ancestor"/whatever to them?

"In fact, under creationism, we'd be far more closely related: more like brothers, half brothers at least. We share a father, after all."
Actually not. God created plants. God created animals. God created people in his image. We are not closely related at all. Since this happened about 6000 years ago - kinds are kinds.

I am proud to be a child of God. Why are Evolutionists upset at being children of MANY animal relatives (amoebas, frogs, lizards, rodents, "common ancestors") as they believe?
“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” W.C. Fields.
"The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

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Soulblood

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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #71 on: October 29, 2015, 02:07:04 PM »
I usually stay out of religious arguments, I respect religious people if they respect me.

But, two things here ...

First ... I am fine with my evolutenary ancestry from single-cell organisms all the way through to humans (including our distant relatives apes - not monkeys actually). I dont know anybody who is upset about that truth.

Second ... Adam and Eve are your ancestors, so as their children had only each other to form the second generation after Adam and Eve, are you okay with having incest as a base of your ancestry?

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Jadyyn

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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #72 on: October 29, 2015, 03:45:46 PM »
I usually stay out of religious arguments, I respect religious people if they respect me.

But, two things here ...

First ... I am fine with my evolutionary ancestry from single-cell organisms all the way through to humans (including our distant relatives apes - not monkeys actually). I dont know anybody who is upset about that truth.

Second ... Adam and Eve are your ancestors, so as their children had only each other to form the second generation after Adam and Eve, are you okay with having incest as a base of your ancestry?
1) Most Evolutionists I meet get really upset. Oh well...

2) Yes, totally - in fact, Eve came out of Adam - talk about incest. Without going into what I believe in detail - that should be a different thread all unto itself - suffice it to say what you believe (and what you think I believe) and what I believe will probably be drastically different. I do base my beliefs on evidence and high probability. So, I have absolutely no problem with incest.
“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” W.C. Fields.
"The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #73 on: October 29, 2015, 05:08:40 PM »
Small changes within kinds is not contrary to what creationists think. It's that an animal can transform into a different animal that we have a problem with. On a larger scale of small changes, there would be a large variety of species within the same kind of animal. For instance, dogs descended from wolves. But wolves, dingos, chihuahuas, and foxes are all part of the canine family.
That's true: but the fact is, it's incoherent to claim the small changes will magically stop just when they start to add up.

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Evolutionarily speaking, what is "good" and why are we to do it? Why are we to "make life good"?
Strictly evolutionary speaking, because it's for the best for humanity. That's not a matter of good or evil, that's just how evolution works: it's the definition. Those that are able to survive and do what's best last. Humans, being social creatures, do just that,
As for 'what is good?' that's separate to evolution. Evolution explains what's called the conscience (and why it notably departs from God's commands), our ability to reason arrives at morality, and it's purely axiom based: as all morality necessarily is. Acknowledging Euthyphro's dilemma and resolution, your axiom is something along the lines of "God's nature is good." That's something that can't be proven, because you take it to be fundamentally true. You can't suppose a standard of good by which to measure it, you just state that his nature is good.

Quote
Yes, you can work on the Sabbath, the main point of that rule is to rest, refresh yourself, and to make time to connect with friends and family. Wanna guess what would happen if you never did that? Suffering is bad generally speaking, but sometimes it can also be good. Ultimately, if this answers your question, God's commands try to eliminate unnecessary suffering. But he knows better, so sometimes we learn that only after following him.
Sure, but none of that requires setting aside one day.
Even the cases when you mention suffering causing good, that good is typically reducing suffering: like a child who accidentally burns their hand, and learns to do better in future.
But regardless, that's not the point: we're comparing axioms. If I was to derive a system of morality from the axiom "Suffering is bad," and compare it to yours, derived from "God's nature/commands are good," how might we compare them? What is it that would set yours apart or above mine?

Quote
I know you said you already read this article, but I really don't think I posted it before. It's very technical, and there's too much to quote, but it deals with the chromosome issue in more detail.
I did check it out: and it should also be acknowledged the fundamental flaw in that kind of article. Good science is characterized by making it intelligible. If you find an article intended for public readership, that remains drowning in jargon, there's a very good chance either the writer doesn't understand what they're saying, or they're hiding something.

Quote
It tell them that monkeys are their fathers.
Evolution doesn't say that. If anything, we're distant, distant cousins: we share a common ancestor.
In fact, under creationism, we'd be far more closely related: more like brothers, half brothers at least. We share a father, after all.

(Hi Jimmy! Good to be on the same side for once, isn't it?)

Your argument about my magical line is like saying “if cats can breed with one another, why can’t they breed with dogs?” Creationists believe our variations have to do with information we *already have* vs new information, which is required for evolution.

The real issue in biological change is all about what happens at the DNA level, which concerns information. The information carried on the DNA, the molecule of heredity, is like a recipe, a set of instructions for the manufacture of certain items.

Evolutionists teach that one-celled organisms have given rise to all the different kinds we have today. In each case, the DNA ‘recipe’ has had to undergo a massive net increase of information during the alleged millions of years. A one-celled organism does not have the instructions for how to manufacture eyes, ears, blood, skin, hooves, brains, etc. So for protozoa to have given rise to ponies, for example, there would have to be some mechanism that gives rise to new information.

The reality is that selection on its own always gets rid of information, never the opposite. To have a way to add information, the ‘only game in town’ for evolution’s true believers is genetic copying mistakes or accidents, i.e. random mutations (which can then be ‘filtered’ by selection). However, the problem is that if mutations were capable of adding the information required, we should see hundreds of examples all around us, considering that there are many thousands of mutations happening continually. But whenever we study mutations, they invariably turn out to have lost or degraded the information. This is so even in those rare instances when the mutational defect gives a survival advantage, e.g. the loss of wings on beetles on windy islands.

As creatures diversify, gene pools become increasingly thinned out. The more organisms adapt to their surroundings by selection, i.e. the more specialized they become, the smaller the fraction they carry of the original storehouse of created information for their kind. Thus, there is less information available on which natural selection can act in the future to ‘readapt’ the population should circumstances change. Less flexible, less adaptable populations are obviously heading closer to extinction, not evolving.

Remember, evolutionary belief teaches that once upon a time, there were living things, but no lungs—lungs had not evolved yet, so there was no DNA information coding for lung manufacture. Somehow this program had to be written. New information had to arise that did not previously exist, anywhere.

Later, there were lungs, but no feathers anywhere in the world, thus no genetic information for feathers. Real-world observation has overwhelmingly shown mutation to be totally unable to feed the required new information into the system. In fact, mutations overall hasten the downward trend by adding genetic load in the form of harmful mutations, of which we have all accumulated hundreds over the generations of our ancestry.

What we see in the process of artificial selection or breeding giving rise to new varieties, is a thinning-out of the information in the parent stock, a reduction in the genetic potential for further variation. If you try and breed a Chihuahua from a Great Dane population or vice versa, you will find that your population lacks the necessary information. This is because, as each variety was selected out, the genes it carried were not representative of the entire gene pool.

What appeared to be a dramatic example of change with the appearance of apparently new traits thus turns out, when its genetic basis is understood, to be an overall downward movement in informational terms. The number of sentences carried by each subgroup is reduced thus making it less likely to survive future environmental changes. Extrapolating that sort of process forward in time does not lead to upwards evolution, but ultimately to extinction with the appearance of evermore-informationally-depleted populations.

In other words, populations can change and adapt because they have a lot of information (variety) in their DNA ‘recipe’. But unless mutations can feed in new information, each time there is variation/adaptation, the total information decreases (as selection gets rid of the unadapted portions of the population, some information is lost in that population). Thus, given a fixed amount of information, the more adaptation we see, the less the potential for future adaptation.

Regarding the nature of God, we have good because he is good. He is the standard. I’m not sure what the problem is there. So you agree that the good in evolution is not right vs wrong but what enables us to survive, aka what’s best for myself. How did this “good” rise about then? How was it beneficial for the first being to put himself last and put someone else first? For example, what caused the first mother of something to nurture her young (and put her own needs behind)?

Conscience begs the question,  since there are murderers who seemingly don’t have a conscience. It depends on how depraved someone is to how far they are capable of committing acts that are evil. So whether you work on the weekend or are a serial killer depends on how numb you are to the consequences, or block out the conscience that I believe God gave us.

"Even the cases when you mention suffering causing good, that good is typically reducing suffering: like a child who accidentally burns their hand, and learns to do better in future.” I don’t disagree with this—it was what I meant exactly.

Okay, one more try. This article http://creation.com/chimp-y-chromosome seems much easier to follow.

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #74 on: October 30, 2015, 01:42:16 AM »
Evolutionists teach that one-celled organisms have given rise to all the different kinds we have today. In each case, the DNA ‘recipe’ has had to undergo a massive net increase of information during the alleged millions of years. A one-celled organism does not have the instructions for how to manufacture eyes, ears, blood, skin, hooves, brains, etc. So for protozoa to have given rise to ponies, for example, there would have to be some mechanism that gives rise to new information.

The reality is that selection on its own always gets rid of information, never the opposite. To have a way to add information, the ‘only game in town’ for evolution’s true believers is genetic copying mistakes or accidents, i.e. random mutations (which can then be ‘filtered’ by selection). However, the problem is that if mutations were capable of adding the information required, we should see hundreds of examples all around us, considering that there are many thousands of mutations happening continually. But whenever we study mutations, they invariably turn out to have lost or degraded the information. This is so even in those rare instances when the mutational defect gives a survival advantage, e.g. the loss of wings on beetles on windy islands.
We do observe them: they're simply small scale. However, there are many cases of information being added to the genome by mutation.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13673-evolution-myths-mutations-can-only-destroy-information/
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB102.html

if we were divinely created, what kind of Creator do you imagine that would make it so we're inevitably losing information as the centuries go by? That seems doomed to failure.

Quote
Remember, evolutionary belief teaches that once upon a time, there were living things, but no lungs—lungs had not evolved yet, so there was no DNA information coding for lung manufacture. Somehow this program had to be written. New information had to arise that did not previously exist, anywhere.
They didn't evolve all at once. Small changes happened, maybe even for a completely different purpose: these added up, until a long, or feathers, were introduced.

Quote
Regarding the nature of God, we have good because he is good. He is the standard. I’m not sure what the problem is there.
No problem, if you admit you're simply defining this as an axiom: a fundamental statement that can't be proven. And if you're doing this, it can be compared to other axioms.

Quote
So you agree that the good in evolution is not right vs wrong but what enables us to survive, aka what’s best for myself. How did this “good” rise about then? How was it beneficial for the first being to put himself last and put someone else first? For example, what caused the first mother of something to nurture her young (and put her own needs behind)?
For the first being, it wasn't: not all animals act this way, though some observably do. Social creatures, however, rely on the influence of a society: and so a system of mutual trust and care would necessarily develop. Self-sacrifice might be part of this, or a side-effect of this caring: as for the first mother, it's clearly beneficial to protect your young. If you didn't, tehy'd be more likely to die, and those genes wouldn't be passed on: whereas the genes of the caring mother would far more likely survive.

Quote
Conscience begs the question,  since there are murderers who seemingly don’t have a conscience. It depends on how depraved someone is to how far they are capable of committing acts that are evil. So whether you work on the weekend or are a serial killer depends on how numb you are to the consequences, or block out the conscience that I believe God gave us.
I'd say it's far more likely someone could blot out a conscience naturally evolved that one divinely mandated.
Even so, the typical trait of a predisposed killer (omitting crimes of passion) would be selfishness: focus on their own wants and needs rather than caring for others. A certain amount of 'selfishness' is a good thing, it's what means we eat rather than give all our food away, but evolution isn't perfect: of course certain drives can be misrepresented or badly followed. However, we can tell from an overall picture why what someone does is wrong.

Quote
Okay, one more try. This article http://creation.com/chimp-y-chromosome seems much easier to follow.
Has little to do with the key similarity, still only focuses on the great apes, admits there's error involved and yet treats the study as perfect... And all from a perspective that evolution is apparently some massive conspiracy.
http://fet.wikia.com
dualearththeory.proboards.com/
On the sister site if you want to talk.

Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #75 on: October 30, 2015, 10:28:35 PM »
Evolutionists teach that one-celled organisms have given rise to all the different kinds we have today. In each case, the DNA ‘recipe’ has had to undergo a massive net increase of information during the alleged millions of years. A one-celled organism does not have the instructions for how to manufacture eyes, ears, blood, skin, hooves, brains, etc. So for protozoa to have given rise to ponies, for example, there would have to be some mechanism that gives rise to new information.

The reality is that selection on its own always gets rid of information, never the opposite. To have a way to add information, the ‘only game in town’ for evolution’s true believers is genetic copying mistakes or accidents, i.e. random mutations (which can then be ‘filtered’ by selection). However, the problem is that if mutations were capable of adding the information required, we should see hundreds of examples all around us, considering that there are many thousands of mutations happening continually. But whenever we study mutations, they invariably turn out to have lost or degraded the information. This is so even in those rare instances when the mutational defect gives a survival advantage, e.g. the loss of wings on beetles on windy islands.
We do observe them: they're simply small scale. However, there are many cases of information being added to the genome by mutation.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13673-evolution-myths-mutations-can-only-destroy-information/
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB102.html

if we were divinely created, what kind of Creator do you imagine that would make it so we're inevitably losing information as the centuries go by? That seems doomed to failure.

Quote
Remember, evolutionary belief teaches that once upon a time, there were living things, but no lungs—lungs had not evolved yet, so there was no DNA information coding for lung manufacture. Somehow this program had to be written. New information had to arise that did not previously exist, anywhere.
They didn't evolve all at once. Small changes happened, maybe even for a completely different purpose: these added up, until a long, or feathers, were introduced.

Quote
Regarding the nature of God, we have good because he is good. He is the standard. I’m not sure what the problem is there.
No problem, if you admit you're simply defining this as an axiom: a fundamental statement that can't be proven. And if you're doing this, it can be compared to other axioms.

Quote
So you agree that the good in evolution is not right vs wrong but what enables us to survive, aka what’s best for myself. How did this “good” rise about then? How was it beneficial for the first being to put himself last and put someone else first? For example, what caused the first mother of something to nurture her young (and put her own needs behind)?
For the first being, it wasn't: not all animals act this way, though some observably do. Social creatures, however, rely on the influence of a society: and so a system of mutual trust and care would necessarily develop. Self-sacrifice might be part of this, or a side-effect of this caring: as for the first mother, it's clearly beneficial to protect your young. If you didn't, tehy'd be more likely to die, and those genes wouldn't be passed on: whereas the genes of the caring mother would far more likely survive.

Quote
Conscience begs the question,  since there are murderers who seemingly don’t have a conscience. It depends on how depraved someone is to how far they are capable of committing acts that are evil. So whether you work on the weekend or are a serial killer depends on how numb you are to the consequences, or block out the conscience that I believe God gave us.
I'd say it's far more likely someone could blot out a conscience naturally evolved that one divinely mandated.
Even so, the typical trait of a predisposed killer (omitting crimes of passion) would be selfishness: focus on their own wants and needs rather than caring for others. A certain amount of 'selfishness' is a good thing, it's what means we eat rather than give all our food away, but evolution isn't perfect: of course certain drives can be misrepresented or badly followed. However, we can tell from an overall picture why what someone does is wrong.

Quote
Okay, one more try. This article http://creation.com/chimp-y-chromosome seems much easier to follow.
Has little to do with the key similarity, still only focuses on the great apes, admits there's error involved and yet treats the study as perfect... And all from a perspective that evolution is apparently some massive conspiracy.

Sorry for my late answer, busy day.

First, information. An article you gave me says "Rather than going into what defines 'information'..." but that's exactly the problem. I decided to pull some key elements from an article. You can view the entire article here: http://creation.com/mutations-new-information

Adaptive immunity
I have a hard time calling something like adaptive immunity, which involves changes in the order of a certain set of genes to create novel antibodies, ‘mutation’. Adaptive immunity is often brought up by the evolutionist as an example of ‘new’ genes (traits) being produced by mutation. Here we have an example of a mechanism that takes DNA modules and scrambles those modules in complex ways in order to generate antibodies for antigens to which the organism has never been exposed. This is a quintessential example of intelligent design. The DNA changes in adaptive immunity occur only in a controlled manner among only a limited number of genes in a limited subset of cells that are only part of the immune system, and these changes are not heritable. Thus, the argument for evolution falls flat on its face.

Gene duplication
Gene duplication is often cited as a mechanism for evolutionary progress and as a means of generating ‘new’ information. Here, a gene is duplicated (through several possible means), turned off via mutation, mutated over time, turned on again through a different mutation, and, voilà!, a new function has arisen.
Invariably, the people who use this as an argument never tell us the rate of duplication necessary, nor how many duplicated but silenced genes we would expect to see in a given genome, nor the needed rate of turning on and off, nor the likelihood of a new function arising in the silenced gene, nor how this new function will be integrated into the already complex genome of the organism, nor the rate at which the silenced ‘junk’ DNA would be expected to be lost at random (genetic drift) or through natural selection. These numbers are not friendly to evolutionary theory, and mathematical studies that have attempted to study the issue have run into a wall of improbability, even when attempting to model simple changes. This is akin to the mathematical difficulties Michael Behe discusses in his book, The Edge of Evolution.34In fact, gene deletions35 and loss-of-function mutations for useful genes are surprisingly common.36 Why would anyone expect a deactivated gene to stick around for a million years or more while an unlikely new function develops?

But the situation with gene duplication is even more complicated than this. The effect of a gene often depends on gene copy number. If an organism appears with extra copies of a certain gene, it may not be able to control the expression of that gene and an imbalance will occur in its physiology, decreasing its fitness (e.g. trisomy causes abnormalities such as Down syndrome because of such gene dosage effects). Since copy number is a type of information, and since copy number variations are known to occur (even among people37), this is an example of a mutation that changes information. Notice I did not say ‘adds’ information, but ‘changes’. Word duplication is usually frowned upon as being unnecessary (ask any English teacher). Likewise, gene duplication is usually, though not always, bad. In the cases where it can occur without damaging the organism, one needs to ask if this is really an addition of information. Even better than that, is this the type of addition required by evolution? No, it is not.

Several creationists have written on this subject, including Lightner,38 Liu and Moran.39 Even if an example of a new function arising through gene duplication is discovered, the function of the new must necessarily be related to the function of the old, such as a new but similar catalysis end product of an enzyme. There is no reason to expect otherwise. New functions arising through duplication are not impossible, but they are vanishingly unlikely, and they become more unlikely with each degree of change required for the development of each new function.

The real issue
The development of new functions is the only thing important for evolution. We are not talking about small functional changes, but radical ones. Some organism had to learn how to convert sugars to energy. Another had to learn how to take sunlight and turn it into sugars. Another had to learn how to take light and turn it into an interpretable image in the brain. These are not simple things, but amazing processes that involve multiple steps, and functions that involve circular and/or ultra-complex pathways will be selected away before they have a chance to develop into a working system. For example, DNA with no function is ripe for deletion, and making proteins/enzymes that have no use until a complete pathway or nano-machine is available is a waste of precious cellular resources. Chicken-and-egg problems abound. What came first, the molecular machine called ATP synthase or the protein and RNA manufacturing machines that rely on ATP to produce the ATP synthase machine? The most basic processes upon which all life depends cannot be co-opted from pre-existing systems. For evolution to work, they have to come up from scratch, they have to be carefully balanced and regulated with respect to other processes, and they have to work before they will be kept.
Saying a gene can be copied and then used to prototype a new function is not what evolution requires, for this cannot account for radically new functionality. Thus, gene duplication cannot answer the most fundamental questions about evolutionary history. Likewise, none of the common modes of mutation (random letter changes, inversions, deletions, etc.) have the ability to do what evolution requires. Darwin pulled a bait and switch in his On the Origin of Species. He actually produced two separate theories: what I call his special and general theories of evolution, following Kerkut45. Darwin went on at length to show how species change. This was the Special Theory of Evolution and he was preceded by numerous others, including several creationists, with the same idea.
It took him a long time to get to the point, but he finally said,
“ … I can see no limit to the amount of change … which may be effected in the long course of time by nature’s power of selection.”46
This was his General Theory of Evolution, and this is where he failed, for he provided no real mechanism for the changes and was ignorant of the underlying mechanisms that would later be revealed. To use a modern analogy, this would be akin to saying that small, random changes in a complex computer program can create radical new software modules, without crashing the system.47 Thus, the ‘can mutations create new information’ argument is really about the bridge between the special and general modes of evolution. Yes, mutations can occur within living species (kinds), but, no, those mutations cannot be used to explain how those species (kinds) came into existence in the first place. We are talking about two completely separate processes.

Regarding your question on God's character, since we lose information: Disease and loss of information and decay are all products of what we term "the fall"--the first time man sinned. God didn't create the world as we see it today. But I've already touched on that in previous posts.

Regarding axioms, all philosophical systems start with axioms (presuppositions), or unprovable propositions accepted as true, and deduce theorems from them. Therefore Christians should not be faulted for having axioms. So the question for any axiomatic system is whether it is self-consistent and is consistent with the real world.

Regarding lungs, wings, and such: If lungs and hearts and wings were to evolve slowly (different topic, I get sidetracked), we would see these transitional organs in animals all over the fossil record. But what we see is fully developed lungs, hearts, and fully developed animals.

You say that evolutionary goodness rises from man's need to survive. This would mean that it all stems from selfish desires. But my conscience tells me that selfishness is wrong. Doesn't yours? Selfishness is the root of all evils: murder, lying, greed, etc. are all rooted in selfishness. Good, objective good, arises from just the opposite: selflessness. Selflessness is what causes us to be charitable, moms and dads, and heroes. It's what causes us to trust each other. A father penguin will practically starve himself while he sits on his chicks in sub-zero temperatures and ice storms. Why in the heck would he know that this helps to pass on his genes? If evolution were true, let me just tell you the obvious--we wouldn't be here. The natural instinct is to survive for MY benefit, not to pass on my genes. No lowly evolved being would have reason that he is aware of enough to sacrifice anything whatsoever. How would he or she even know they were passing on genes? They would've been like, "what is this thing leaching off of me?" And threw it away. Goodbye penguins, goodbye mammals. Goodbye, humans.

Creationists do not believe there's a conspiracy, but a lot of the information in the mass media is definitely biased, and the information in evolution is of course always interpreted from an evolutionary worldview and evolutionary presuppositions.

*

JRoweSkeptic

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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #76 on: October 31, 2015, 01:51:41 AM »
Quote
The DNA changes in adaptive immunity occur only in a controlled manner among only a limited number of genes in a limited subset of cells that are only part of the immune system, and these changes are not heritable. Thus, the argument for evolution falls flat on its face.
Outright nonsense. The fact the system works even in just one generation gives it an evolutionary advantage: and as the ability to possess an immune system is passed on... To say nothing of the inexplicable conclusion that it's intelligent design as a presupposition. It's easy to see how the beneficial system would come about naturally: some basic antibody system, a body able to guess, to what we observe.
Quote
We are not talking about small functional changes, but radical ones.
And here's the problem: we are talking about small changes. Evolution can only cause small changes. It just so happens that, as in every single situation, when a lot of small changes are made, these will add up to a big one.

Quote
The most basic processes upon which all life depends cannot be co-opted from pre-existing systems.
Just an argument from irreducible complexity, which is outdated in so many ways: it assumes only one possible path, instead of, for example, the idea that a 'scaffold' existed, or that multiple parts were once used for a different purpose. We've observed both those things, to my knowledge. take a keystone arch: if one stone is removed, the whole thing collapses: but this doesn't mean it's impossible for one to be built. And take a mousetrap; take one part away and it's useless, but each part is still handy for different purposes.

Quote
Yes, mutations can occur within living species (kinds), but, no, those mutations cannot be used to explain how those species (kinds) came into existence in the first place. We are talking about two completely separate processes.
Given evolution isn't meant to explain the origin of life, I fail to see how this counts for anything against the theory. The Bible doesn't explain Pythagoras' theorem, does that damage your faith?

Quote
Regarding your question on God's character, since we lose information: Disease and loss of information and decay are all products of what we term "the fall"--the first time man sinned. God didn't create the world as we see it today. But I've already touched on that in previous posts.
Did God not know how we would develop should early man fall?

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Therefore Christians should not be faulted for having axioms.
I am not faulting you, as I've said: simply pointing out this means the Christian form of morality is no better than any other axiom-based system.

Quote
Regarding lungs, wings, and such: If lungs and hearts and wings were to evolve slowly (different topic, I get sidetracked), we would see these transitional organs in animals all over the fossil record. But what we see is fully developed lungs, hearts, and fully developed animals.
It is physically impossible to observe an organ in a fossil. If you want transitional examples, flying squirrels have proto-wings, and there are a lot of animals (especially in the sea) with primitively developed eyes. See: animals that see only in black and white, or who have a pinhole camera type system, or who only react to light...

Quote
But my conscience tells me that selfishness is wrong. Doesn't yours?
It tells me selfishness in excess is wrong, the same as anything. Without some self-interest we'd all have died long ago, desperately trying to share food, only to have the other person give it back, before we insisted they have it, and they gave it back... Without some selfishness, some desire to do what you want, you'd have starved or died one of a million ways.
This doesn't preclude selflessness, it's all a matter of degree: the same as anything.

Quote
A father penguin will practically starve himself while he sits on his chicks in sub-zero temperatures and ice storms. Why in the heck would he know that this helps to pass on his genes?
In those terms, he probably doesn't. So? He doesn't need to know something to have the genetic urge; it's well-documented humans have an inherent closeness to relatives, whether children or parents. Such principles exist, and clearly an animal that has an arge to protect its young will have its genes passed on. That's all evolution is: the genes which favor genes being passed on will, well, be passed on.

Quote
The natural instinct is to survive for MY benefit, not to pass on my genes.
Then the genes that cause you to have that instinct wouldn't be passed on. You'd definitely die, but why does that mean everyone would? Plus that still supposes evolution lasted a while, to get beyong single-celled organisms to organisms capable of thought, and at that point there's a pretty strong basis for alternative systems to develop.
There is certainly an instinct for self-preservation: if this didn't exist we wouldn't live long enough to pass on our genes. Don't forget though, self-preservation (even if that was all at play) is hardly damaged by society: if anything, it's stronger. It's far easier to survive if you have help; not true for every creature, but for social animals like humans...
http://fet.wikia.com
dualearththeory.proboards.com/
On the sister site if you want to talk.

Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #77 on: November 01, 2015, 01:32:47 AM »
Quote
The DNA changes in adaptive immunity occur only in a controlled manner among only a limited number of genes in a limited subset of cells that are only part of the immune system, and these changes are not heritable. Thus, the argument for evolution falls flat on its face.
Outright nonsense. The fact the system works even in just one generation gives it an evolutionary advantage: and as the ability to possess an immune system is passed on... To say nothing of the inexplicable conclusion that it's intelligent design as a presupposition. It's easy to see how the beneficial system would come about naturally: some basic antibody system, a body able to guess, to what we observe.
Quote
We are not talking about small functional changes, but radical ones.
And here's the problem: we are talking about small changes. Evolution can only cause small changes. It just so happens that, as in every single situation, when a lot of small changes are made, these will add up to a big one.

Quote
The most basic processes upon which all life depends cannot be co-opted from pre-existing systems.
Just an argument from irreducible complexity, which is outdated in so many ways: it assumes only one possible path, instead of, for example, the idea that a 'scaffold' existed, or that multiple parts were once used for a different purpose. We've observed both those things, to my knowledge. take a keystone arch: if one stone is removed, the whole thing collapses: but this doesn't mean it's impossible for one to be built. And take a mousetrap; take one part away and it's useless, but each part is still handy for different purposes.

Quote
Yes, mutations can occur within living species (kinds), but, no, those mutations cannot be used to explain how those species (kinds) came into existence in the first place. We are talking about two completely separate processes.
Given evolution isn't meant to explain the origin of life, I fail to see how this counts for anything against the theory. The Bible doesn't explain Pythagoras' theorem, does that damage your faith?

Quote
Regarding your question on God's character, since we lose information: Disease and loss of information and decay are all products of what we term "the fall"--the first time man sinned. God didn't create the world as we see it today. But I've already touched on that in previous posts.
Did God not know how we would develop should early man fall?

Quote
Therefore Christians should not be faulted for having axioms.
I am not faulting you, as I've said: simply pointing out this means the Christian form of morality is no better than any other axiom-based system.

Quote
Regarding lungs, wings, and such: If lungs and hearts and wings were to evolve slowly (different topic, I get sidetracked), we would see these transitional organs in animals all over the fossil record. But what we see is fully developed lungs, hearts, and fully developed animals.
It is physically impossible to observe an organ in a fossil. If you want transitional examples, flying squirrels have proto-wings, and there are a lot of animals (especially in the sea) with primitively developed eyes. See: animals that see only in black and white, or who have a pinhole camera type system, or who only react to light...

Quote
But my conscience tells me that selfishness is wrong. Doesn't yours?
It tells me selfishness in excess is wrong, the same as anything. Without some self-interest we'd all have died long ago, desperately trying to share food, only to have the other person give it back, before we insisted they have it, and they gave it back... Without some selfishness, some desire to do what you want, you'd have starved or died one of a million ways.
This doesn't preclude selflessness, it's all a matter of degree: the same as anything.

Quote
A father penguin will practically starve himself while he sits on his chicks in sub-zero temperatures and ice storms. Why in the heck would he know that this helps to pass on his genes?
In those terms, he probably doesn't. So? He doesn't need to know something to have the genetic urge; it's well-documented humans have an inherent closeness to relatives, whether children or parents. Such principles exist, and clearly an animal that has an arge to protect its young will have its genes passed on. That's all evolution is: the genes which favor genes being passed on will, well, be passed on.

Quote
The natural instinct is to survive for MY benefit, not to pass on my genes.
Then the genes that cause you to have that instinct wouldn't be passed on. You'd definitely die, but why does that mean everyone would? Plus that still supposes evolution lasted a while, to get beyong single-celled organisms to organisms capable of thought, and at that point there's a pretty strong basis for alternative systems to develop.
There is certainly an instinct for self-preservation: if this didn't exist we wouldn't live long enough to pass on our genes. Don't forget though, self-preservation (even if that was all at play) is hardly damaged by society: if anything, it's stronger. It's far easier to survive if you have help; not true for every creature, but for social animals like humans...

We have no evidence of the immune system evolving. For instance, the immune system appears abruptly in cartilaginous fish, and even 'primitive' jawed vertebrates have an immune system that is very similar to 'advanced mammals'. Before sharks, not a trace of antibodies or other pivotal immune proteins; after them, all elements are in place.

"when a lot of small changes are made, these will add up to a big one." The problem is, again, that these changes that are mutations are losing information for the most part. Even in billions of years, it's pretty impossible that mutations would be able to make enough small changes to gain the sort of information required to build an animal that never existed before. The quick changes that we see in speciation or survival of the fittest are operating under a different system. Speciation is working with genes that were already present in that kind of animal.

I think you're over-simplifying the human body, cell, genome, DNA, etc. by comparing it to an arch or a mousetrap (interesting example, btw, I don't see how that works, but that's okay). This is an article that posts both evolutionist's responses like yours, and the viewpoint from the other side, of course. http://creation.com/refuting-evolution-2-chapter-10-argument-irreducible-complexity If you're not getting too tired of reading articles.

I wasn't going to actually get into the origin of life, but it is fundamental to both evolution and creation. If life cannot come from non-life, then evolution is a pointless argument anyway.

Yes, God knew we would fail, thus giving us certain traits that came out when our environment got harsher. But he deemed it all worth it, and turned it into good. I could go on and on in this subject, but that's the nutshell.

The important thing in believing an axiom is whether or not it's consistent with the real world. So I don't agree that the Christian view of morality is no better than any other axiom, because I believe it's the only one that makes sense with the way things are.

I don't believe flying squirrels have anything transitional. But regarding eyes:

"Ironically, the greatest variety of eye design, not only in structure, but also in number and location, exists not among the vertebrates as Darwinism would expect, but among the so-called ‘primitive’ invertebrates." --Fernald, R.D., Eyes: variety, development and evolution, Brain, Behavior and Evolution

Invertebrates also have eyes that are, in some respects, superior to those of vertebrates. One example is the hemispherical eyes of most flies and other insects, which produce, unlike human and most vertebrate eyes, an image largely free of spherical distortion. Human eyes have significant peripheral image distortion, but spherical eyes form a sharp image in all directions. However, humans do not have sharp peripheral vision because this is the function of the central retina called the macula. Our peripheral vision is for the detection of light and movement which trigger the fixation reflex to turn the eyes toward the stimulus.

The presumably highest, most evolved form of life, the higher primates, have only two cone photoreceptors, blue and green, but birds have a total of six pigments: four cone pigments plus pinopsin (a pineal photoreceptive molecule) and rhodopsin for black and white vision. Put another way, chickens, humans and mice all have the rhodopsin pigment; mice in addition have blue and green; humans have blue, green, and red; and birds have these three pigments plus violet and pinopsin. For every color that humans perceive, birds can see very distinct multiple colors, including ultraviolet light. Birds use infrared light (which we sense as heat) for night vision, allowing them to rapidly visualize their young in a dense, dark tree.

We all have the instinct to survive, e.g. not give all our food away. But if we saw a starving child, the best of us would give all our food away to that child and starve in her place. It's only selfishness if you're preferring yourself over someone else. This would be consistent with evolution. To develop an accidental trait for selflessness is a far-reaching notion. Where would the reasoning behind a selfless act come from? To develop a random urge to care for your young without reason is equally absurd. But if you're basing the urge to care for our young merely on a glitch, urge, or chemical reaction, then we are really talking about love and free will and every other virtue as merely an illusion, in which we can't help ourselves. We are merely robots, enslaved to our urges.

Philip Skell, who was Professor of Chemistry at Pennsylvania State University, commented:

“Darwinian explanations for such things are often too supple: Natural selection makes humans self-centered and aggressive—except when it makes them altruistic and peaceable. Or natural selection produces virile men who eagerly spread their seed—except when it prefers men who are faithful protectors and providers. When an explanation is so supple that it can explain any behavior, it is difficult to test it experimentally, much less use it as a catalyst for scientific discovery.”

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Soulblood

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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #78 on: November 01, 2015, 03:08:18 AM »
Protecting your offspring, even by sacrificing yourself, is of clear evolutinary advantage ... if in my species a parent will die to save several of its kind it has a clear advantage over another group that doesn't do that ... and over time that "enlightened" species will prevail.

Father pinguin doesn't know what he is doing when sacrificing himself, but evolution has made sure that he has that urge because pinguins without that urge had fewer surviving offspring and eventually disappeared amongst the growing number that had that urge.

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Jadyyn

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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #79 on: November 01, 2015, 06:49:57 AM »
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Protecting your offspring, even by sacrificing yourself, is of clear evolutionary advantage ... if in my species a parent will die to save several of its kind it has a clear advantage over another group that doesn't do that ... and over time that "enlightened" species will prevail.
So which is stronger, survival instinct of the individual or the instinct to protect your offspring?
“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” W.C. Fields.
"The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

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Soulblood

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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #80 on: November 01, 2015, 07:07:01 AM »
As a species I would say we still have that instinct, but as humans developed intellect and individualism we have also learned to overcome our instincts ... thats sometimes good and sometimes bad ... evolution has basically no morals ... and I would argue that the morals we developed have roots in individual or social advantages too ... and are not god-given but men-evolved.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 07:08:34 AM by Soulblood »

Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #81 on: November 01, 2015, 07:33:37 PM »
As a species I would say we still have that instinct, but as humans developed intellect and individualism we have also learned to overcome our instincts ... thats sometimes good and sometimes bad ... evolution has basically no morals ... and I would argue that the morals we developed have roots in individual or social advantages too ... and are not god-given but men-evolved.

No, I get the concept. I understand that if an animal were to accidentally get the urge to protect her young that the specific species would survive because they had offspring as a result. I think Jadyyn had a really good question about which instinct is stronger. But I'm not satisfied, because I don't believe the urge to have offspring would happen with out a Reason--a Being to plan this out. It's too "just so," among many other evolutionary stories, really including the need to survive in the first place, come to think of it. Even the fact that trees produce seeds, without the need to nurture, just the fact that they produce seeds at all is pointing to a designer. I can't buy the idea that these things "just happened" from nothing and for no reason. If you look at this stuff from an outsider's viewpoint, you must surely see the reasoning behind what I'm saying.

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Soulblood

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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #82 on: November 01, 2015, 10:02:17 PM »
Funny enough "Argument from incredulity" has been mentioned several times on this forum lately ... and your post is just that ... "I can't imagine that" just shows a lack of imagination and understanding on your side and not a general problem with the theory.

In fact, Evolution is a very detailed, logical and well researched science and the "just so" approach seems on the side of those that explain the diversity of the world by an external magic influence when it actually follows a perfect inner logic.

Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #83 on: November 02, 2015, 12:40:59 AM »
Funny enough "Argument from incredulity" has been mentioned several times on this forum lately ... and your post is just that ... "I can't imagine that" just shows a lack of imagination and understanding on your side and not a general problem with the theory.

In fact, Evolution is a very detailed, logical and well researched science and the "just so" approach seems on the side of those that explain the diversity of the world by an external magic influence when it actually follows a perfect inner logic.

Oh no, my friend, I don't lack an imagination. Do care to expand, if you wish to enlighten my understanding. I believe discussing our beliefs, the why's, and the potential how's, are useful and beneficial in a world where we are quick to judge and throw insults without trying to respect and see another's viewpoint. You are free to not participate in our discussion, but personal attacks and a lack of information/resources to help your point are really not beneficial.

I've explained to you that evolution, while it may be detailed, is certainly more magical and fairytale-like to me. You are obviously allowed to think otherwise, as long as your chemicals and urges will allow it, that is.

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Soulblood

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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #84 on: November 02, 2015, 01:09:55 AM »
I would like to say that you made the discussion personal by questioning a well researched scientific theory without any argument beyond you don't believing it possible. I pointed out the limits of such an argument ...

Science is complicated and the sum of our knowledge has far outgrown the understanding of any single person ... therefore calling evolution "magical and fairytale-like to me" is not a very constructive way of moving an argument along.

I thereby stand by my initial observation of "Argument from incredulity" which I colorful described as "a lack of imagination and understanding on your side". Considering the usual standard of discussion on this forum I can't really see it as a bad personal attack and I will freely admit that there are many issues where my own "imagination and understanding" isn't enough to fully grasp them ... of course, in such cases I generally try to stay out of arguing for or against them.

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #85 on: November 02, 2015, 08:26:48 AM »
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The problem is, again, that these changes that are mutations are losing information for the most part. Even in billions of years, it's pretty impossible that mutations would be able to make enough small changes to gain the sort of information required to build an animal that never existed before. The quick changes that we see in speciation or survival of the fittest are operating under a different system. Speciation is working with genes that were already present in that kind of animal.
You have already been told that the information loss argument is inconsistent. Evolution works with genes that are already present, it just alters them slightly.

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I wasn't going to actually get into the origin of life, but it is fundamental to both evolution and creation. If life cannot come from non-life, then evolution is a pointless argument anyway.
Sure, but that still isn't something the theory of evolution attempts to explain. Besides, there's no reason to think it's impossible.

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I don't believe flying squirrels have anything transitional.
Proto-wings, for one. Every animal has 'something transitional,' to think otherwise is to fundamentally misunderstand evolution.

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The important thing in believing an axiom is whether or not it's consistent with the real world. So I don't agree that the Christian view of morality is no better than any other axiom, because I believe it's the only one that makes sense with the way things are.
Axioms of morality have no way to be consistent with the real world: unless you assume the conscience relates to an objective system of morality (only true presupposing God), and even then a non-theistic axiom is better. Every inherent moral belief is based on doing no harm, while there is clearly no tendency to believe in God (observable by comparing rates of disbelief with other moral sins) which is a theistic moral statement.

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We all have the instinct to survive, e.g. not give all our food away. But if we saw a starving child, the best of us would give all our food away to that child and starve in her place. It's only selfishness if you're preferring yourself over someone else. This would be consistent with evolution. To develop an accidental trait for selflessness is a far-reaching notion. Where would the reasoning behind a selfless act come from? To develop a random urge to care for your young without reason is equally absurd. But if you're basing the urge to care for our young merely on a glitch, urge, or chemical reaction, then we are really talking about love and free will and every other virtue as merely an illusion, in which we can't help ourselves. We are merely robots, enslaved to our urges.
Don't forget, not every act is a direct implication of evolution. Often, many things can be side-effects of an otherwise good trait. Take moths: they fly too close to a flame because they're used to navigating by stars. Either a sadistic God made them, or they have an impulse that hasn't yet adapted to a relatively recent or minor invention. Human empathy is clearly beneficial, especially for children. We want to protect children, who normally can't protect themselves: and so further allow our species to develop.
There's every reason to care for our children, in an evolutionary perspective. Beyond that, how do you define evolution? I've never liked the notion that just because something's in our mind, it must be less real: ultimately, we experience everything through our minds. If something's an illusion just because it arises from our minds, then everything's an illusion: it's incoherent to single out love and virtue.

As for which instinct is stronger, self-sacrifice or self-preservation, I couldn't say objectively speaking. People aren't clones of one another; everyone's different, especially on these issues where people think and internalize new ideas and thoughts. Compare a self-harmer with low self-esteem to Donald Trump, you'd get two completely different results.

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“Darwinian explanations for such things are often too supple: Natural selection makes humans self-centered and aggressive—except when it makes them altruistic and peaceable. Or natural selection produces virile men who eagerly spread their seed—except when it prefers men who are faithful protectors and providers. When an explanation is so supple that it can explain any behavior, it is difficult to test it experimentally, much less use it as a catalyst for scientific discovery.”
Darwinian explanations can be tested by observing the root, rather than the effect. That's how science works.
http://fet.wikia.com
dualearththeory.proboards.com/
On the sister site if you want to talk.

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Jadyyn

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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #86 on: November 02, 2015, 08:29:57 AM »
Sexual Reproduction. Exactly how would that evolve?
“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” W.C. Fields.
"The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #87 on: November 02, 2015, 08:33:05 AM »
Sexual Reproduction. Exactly how would that evolve?

Asexual reproduction can be much the same thing, just with the parts nestled in one entity. Have the necessary ingredients part (keeping in the same entity), to allow for more variation (which would be selected for). On the cellular level, where most things like that would evolve, it would be easier for the parts to just split completely: which would save on, for example, energy.
http://fet.wikia.com
dualearththeory.proboards.com/
On the sister site if you want to talk.

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Jadyyn

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Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #88 on: November 02, 2015, 10:50:07 AM »
Sexual Reproduction. Exactly how would that evolve?

Asexual reproduction can be much the same thing, just with the parts nestled in one entity. Have the necessary ingredients part (keeping in the same entity), to allow for more variation (which would be selected for). On the cellular level, where most things like that would evolve, it would be easier for the parts to just split completely: which would save on, for example, energy.
Wouldn't you need a male and female at the same time and same place to start this? (i.e. one with a penis/testicles, the other one with a uterus/placenta - location, breasts growing at the right time for feeding, hormone creating organs to control the whole process taking days to complete. This adds additional DNA material (information) and chromosomes for ONLY these FUNCTIONAL HUGE GIGANTIC STRUCTURES (compared to a single cell). This is not just another different single cell. Furthermore, the additional information for the creation of these structures would need to be in the zygote telling the creature where and when to create them)? If any of these fail, the birth process will probably abort. How many positive mutations does all this require? Can animals with different amounts of chromosomes reproduce? Human albinos have an extra chromosome and are sterile. For animals and people that reproduce ONLY this way, how would these animals begin from asexual reproduction? Asexual -> Sexual is a HUGE leap. Wouldn't asexual reproduction be MUCH better? You don't need to find a partner, just split?
“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” W.C. Fields.
"The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

Re: Unsure of flat or not but here's something interesting
« Reply #89 on: November 02, 2015, 09:17:25 PM »
I would like to say that you made the discussion personal by questioning a well researched scientific theory without any argument beyond you don't believing it possible. I pointed out the limits of such an argument ...

Science is complicated and the sum of our knowledge has far outgrown the understanding of any single person ... therefore calling evolution "magical and fairytale-like to me" is not a very constructive way of moving an argument along.

I thereby stand by my initial observation of "Argument from incredulity" which I colorful described as "a lack of imagination and understanding on your side". Considering the usual standard of discussion on this forum I can't really see it as a bad personal attack and I will freely admit that there are many issues where my own "imagination and understanding" isn't enough to fully grasp them ... of course, in such cases I generally try to stay out of arguing for or against them.

If you take it personally when someone doesn't agree with your faith, you must have some emotional aversion to other belief systems (or perhaps mine, specifically, which is more likely the case). If you get offended this easily, it will be difficult for you to converse constructively with anyone, and it's impossible to keep an open mind, which is evident.

If you wish to "be constructive" in "moving this argument along," you have my permission. I haven't seen it yet.

I do have an imagination, and so does Darwin, Hans Christian Anderson, Mark Twain, and J.R.R. Tolkein. Indeed, evolution is a figment of your imagination. Don't be too upset, you really walked right into that joke on the last post.  ;)