The earth is round because of one simple observation.

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TheEngineer

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Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #60 on: October 18, 2015, 09:23:25 AM »
Oh, he is an engineer, I am sure of that.  He also understands the concepts he discusses.  However, he isn't an FE'er, he is just lawyering the hell out of you guys.  You should pay closer attention to what he doesn't say.  Has he ever said he is an FE'er?  If you make an accurate statement, he doesn't refute it.  Think of it this way, he is the FES attorney.  He doesn't necessarily believe what the FES's argument is, but he is definitely going to make sure your argument is sound.
Can you believe there are people like sokarul that still don't get it?  And he's been around for many years.

Oh, and by the way, I assume this means that you've realized I was not 'blatantly incorrect' about GR?


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TheEngineer

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Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #61 on: October 18, 2015, 09:32:23 AM »
I possess a MEng in Chemical Engineering here in the UK and can assure you that physics plays a large role in that degree. Suggest before you do some research before you spout off.
I work in a company in which every engineering discipline is represented.  I routinely interact with every type of engineer.  I have friends in every field.  So, yes, I know what I am talking about, thanks.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
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Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #62 on: October 18, 2015, 11:36:13 AM »
I possess a MEng in Chemical Engineering here in the UK and can assure you that physics plays a large role in that degree. Suggest before you do some research before you spout off.
I work in a company in which every engineering discipline is represented.  I routinely interact with every type of engineer.  I have friends in every field.  So, yes, I know what I am talking about, thanks.

And yet you taunted a chemical engineer for not knowing physics despite it being an integral discipline in that degree and field.
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance or stupidity.

Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #63 on: October 18, 2015, 11:57:17 AM »
If you make an accurate statement, he doesn't refute it.
He refuted the statements that gravitational attraction obeys the inverse square law, and that it is capable of imparting motion to a static body. Both of those are accurate.
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Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #64 on: October 18, 2015, 12:08:47 PM »
Oh, he is an engineer, I am sure of that.  He also understands the concepts he discusses.  However, he isn't an FE'er, he is just lawyering the hell out of you guys.  You should pay closer attention to what he doesn't say.  Has he ever said he is an FE'er?  If you make an accurate statement, he doesn't refute it.  Think of it this way, he is the FES attorney.  He doesn't necessarily believe what the FES's argument is, but he is definitely going to make sure your argument is sound.
Can you believe there are people like sokarul that still don't get it?  And he's been around for many years.

Oh, and by the way, I assume this means that you've realized I was not 'blatantly incorrect' about GR?

Just out of curiosity, why not call out FE'ers when they make inaccurate statements?

No, air resistance still applies a force, so free fall isn't possible in Earth's atmosphere.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 12:40:14 PM by TexasH »

Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #65 on: October 18, 2015, 12:11:56 PM »
I possess a MEng in Chemical Engineering here in the UK and can assure you that physics plays a large role in that degree. Suggest before you do some research before you spout off.
I work in a company in which every engineering discipline is represented.  I routinely interact with every type of engineer.  I have friends in every field.  So, yes, I know what I am talking about, thanks.

We are a pretty diverse bunch.  I don't know what your company does, but some of us still use physics on a regular basis.

Edit: Ha, us<->use, that's what I get for typing on my phone.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 05:32:11 PM by TexasH »

Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #66 on: October 18, 2015, 12:17:50 PM »
If you make an accurate statement, he doesn't refute it.
He refuted the statements that gravitational attraction obeys the inverse square law, and that it is capable of imparting motion to a static body. Both of those are accurate.

Newton's model follows the inverse square law.

Gravitation doesn't impart motion on a static body.

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TheEngineer

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Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #67 on: October 18, 2015, 05:27:16 PM »
And yet you taunted a chemical engineer for not knowing physics despite it being an integral discipline in that degree and field.
Yes, because I know what I am talking about.  Being that I work with ChemEs and all.


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sokarul

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Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #68 on: October 18, 2015, 05:37:02 PM »
And yet you taunted a chemical engineer for not knowing physics despite it being an integral discipline in that degree and field.
Yes, because I know what I am talking about.  Being that I work with ChemEs and all.
Rofl.
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TheEngineer

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Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #69 on: October 18, 2015, 05:37:20 PM »
Oh, he is an engineer, I am sure of that.  He also understands the concepts he discusses.  However, he isn't an FE'er, he is just lawyering the hell out of you guys.  You should pay closer attention to what he doesn't say.  Has he ever said he is an FE'er?  If you make an accurate statement, he doesn't refute it.  Think of it this way, he is the FES attorney.  He doesn't necessarily believe what the FES's argument is, but he is definitely going to make sure your argument is sound.
Can you believe there are people like sokarul that still don't get it?  And he's been around for many years.

Oh, and by the way, I assume this means that you've realized I was not 'blatantly incorrect' about GR?
No, air resistance still applies a force, so free fall isn't possible in Earth's atmosphere.
But that's not what you were talking about (see below).  Please don't be a typical RE'er.  Just admit that you were wrong, not informed, unaware of, etc. and that I was correct.  Which I was. 

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In summary, objects are being accelerated by the Earth's gravitation even when they are not in contact with it.
A person is only accelerated when they are in contact with the Earth, directly or otherwise.  So...no.  And like I said, leave the science to us grown ups.

This is just blatantly incorrect.  Drop an object off a building...it accelerates.  This should be obvious, at the moment the object is released, it has a velocity of 0 m/s.  If there is no acceleration, the velocity won't change and the object won't move.
Why is it so hard to admit you were wrong?  It's not like the world is going to end.  Admit it and move on.



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sokarul

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Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #70 on: October 18, 2015, 05:50:33 PM »
How times have changed.
Again, gravitation is acceleration.  If you can prove otherwise, please do, as I have already done so for my position.
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Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #71 on: October 18, 2015, 05:52:28 PM »
Oh, he is an engineer, I am sure of that.  He also understands the concepts he discusses.  However, he isn't an FE'er, he is just lawyering the hell out of you guys.  You should pay closer attention to what he doesn't say.  Has he ever said he is an FE'er?  If you make an accurate statement, he doesn't refute it.  Think of it this way, he is the FES attorney.  He doesn't necessarily believe what the FES's argument is, but he is definitely going to make sure your argument is sound.
Can you believe there are people like sokarul that still don't get it?  And he's been around for many years.

Oh, and by the way, I assume this means that you've realized I was not 'blatantly incorrect' about GR?
No, air resistance still applies a force, so free fall isn't possible in Earth's atmosphere.
But that's not what you were talking about (see below).  Please don't be a typical RE'er.  Just admit that you were wrong, not informed, unaware of, etc. and that I was correct.  Which I was. 

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In summary, objects are being accelerated by the Earth's gravitation even when they are not in contact with it.
A person is only accelerated when they are in contact with the Earth, directly or otherwise.  So...no.  And like I said, leave the science to us grown ups.

This is just blatantly incorrect.  Drop an object off a building...it accelerates.  This should be obvious, at the moment the object is released, it has a velocity of 0 m/s.  If there is no acceleration, the velocity won't change and the object won't move.
Why is it so hard to admit you were wrong?  It's not like the world is going to end.  Admit it and move on.

Are you conceding you were wrong on the first point?

As far as the second point, I did misunderstand what you were saying.  I thought you were saying that the object would fall at a constant velocity (there is some pretty ignorant comments on this forum; although technically you were saying it fell at a constant velocity (0 m/s), but you know what I am trying to say).  Anyways, it's a frame of reference issue, a falling object accelerates with respect to the Earth.  GR obviously states the opposite.  Newton's model is accurate enough for calculations at the speeds discussed here and is the simpler model.  No need to use a more complex model, if you don't need to.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 05:55:22 PM by TexasH »

Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #72 on: October 18, 2015, 06:01:54 PM »
Just out of curiosity, why not call out FE'ers when they make inaccurate statements?

Why did you avoid this question?

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TheEngineer

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Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #73 on: October 18, 2015, 08:00:38 PM »
Are you conceding you were wrong on the first point?
Absolutely not.

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I thought you were saying that the object would fall at a constant velocity (there is some pretty ignorant comments on this forum; although technically you were saying it fell at a constant velocity (0 m/s), but you know what I am trying to say).
Yes it will fall at a constant velocity, that's why it's called inertial motion (not including air resistance obviously , ::)).

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Anyways, it's a frame of reference issue, a falling object accelerates with respect to the Earth.  GR obviously states the opposite.
So everything I said about GR is correct.  Yet, you said I was 'blatantly incorrect'.  So I am right, right?

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Just out of curiosity, why not call out FE'ers when they make inaccurate statements?
I do.  Just not very often.


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Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #74 on: October 18, 2015, 08:13:38 PM »
Are you conceding you were wrong on the first point?
Absolutely not.

Anyway, I know I am correct on that part, and don't need your concession to feel better about myself.

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I thought you were saying that the object would fall at a constant velocity (there is some pretty ignorant comments on this forum; although technically you were saying it fell at a constant velocity (0 m/s), but you know what I am trying to say).
Yes it will fall at a constant velocity, that's why it's called inertial motion (not including air resistance obviously , ::)).

Right, that is exactly what I just said, ::).

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Anyways, it's a frame of reference issue, a falling object accelerates with respect to the Earth.  GR obviously states the opposite.
So everything I said about GR is correct.  Yet, you said I was 'blatantly incorrect'.  So I am right, right?

Like I said, I misunderstood what you were saying.  Why do I need to keep repeating myself?

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Just out of curiosity, why not call out FE'ers when they make inaccurate statements?
I do.  Just not very often.

So most RE'ers can handle FE arguments, but FE'ers can't handle RE arguments?  Do you see yourself as their "Dark Knight" or something?

Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #75 on: October 18, 2015, 10:40:10 PM »
TexasH I would guess that the reason TheEngineer would be less likely to call out Flat Earthers when they make inaccurate statements is because a Flat Earther would be less likely to admit that he/she is wrong than someone who accepts the Earth as being round as if a Flat Earther doesn't even accept that the Earth is round they probably aren't going to admit it when they are called out.

Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #76 on: October 18, 2015, 11:16:35 PM »
And yet you taunted a chemical engineer for not knowing physics despite it being an integral discipline in that degree and field.
Yes, because I know what I am talking about.  Being that I work with ChemEs and all.
So why do you think they know nothing about physics?
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance or stupidity.

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TheEngineer

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Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #77 on: October 18, 2015, 11:40:15 PM »
And yet you taunted a chemical engineer for not knowing physics despite it being an integral discipline in that degree and field.
Yes, because I know what I am talking about.  Being that I work with ChemEs and all.
So why do you think they know nothing about physics?
First off, I didn't say they 'know nothing about physics'.  I said they suck at physics.  I said this because I know ChemEs.  Good at chemistry and metallurgy.  Not so good at modern physics and the mechanics of materials.  Not their fault, it's not part of the discipline.  I don't argue chemical reactions with a ChemE, they shouldn't argue modern physics with a mechanical engineer unless they've done their homework.  Which was clearly not the case here.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
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Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #78 on: October 19, 2015, 05:26:14 AM »
I don't argue chemical reactions with a ChemE, they shouldn't argue modern physics with a mechanical engineer unless they've done their homework.  Which was clearly not the case here.

Funny, I haven't used chemical reactions in 15 years.  I have never worked in metallurgy either.

Also, funny thing is that I wasn't wrong here either.  I didn't even realize you were using GR until half way through our conversation.  Not even an ME would use GR to calculate something as simple as an object falling from the top of a building.  Most ME's realize that Newton's model is great for most applications.  Only someone that gets their jollies off telling people they are wrong and needing reassurance that they are right would do that.  Unless of course you work for a company that designs and builds satellites.  I still haven't figured out why you are even here.  Are you under appreciated at work need the confidence boost here?  Not confident in your physics knowledge to discuss these topics on a physics forum?

Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #79 on: October 19, 2015, 10:51:05 AM »
If you make an accurate statement, he doesn't refute it.
He refuted the statements that gravitational attraction obeys the inverse square law, and that it is capable of imparting motion to a static body. Both of those are accurate.

Newton's model follows the inverse square law.

Gravitation doesn't impart motion on a static body.

The inverse square law of Newton's model does not conflict with anything subsequently amended by the current gravity model. It still applies. It remains an accurate statement.
I genuinely fail to see how motion is NOT imparted to a static body by gravity. I suspect your lack of explanation is a deliberate attempt to get someone to disagree with you and trip up (strange, you're almost like the "Engineer"'s alt in that respect...) Therefore, I would like you to explain what imparts motion to an apple which I'm holding stationary, and then I let go of it. I strongly suspect your answer will rely heavily on semantics rather than physics.
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Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #80 on: October 19, 2015, 12:59:39 PM »

I genuinely fail to see how motion is NOT imparted to a static body by gravity. I suspect your lack of explanation is a deliberate attempt to get someone to disagree with you and trip up (strange, you're almost like the "Engineer"'s alt in that respect...) Therefore, I would like you to explain what imparts motion to an apple which I'm holding stationary, and then I let go of it. I strongly suspect your answer will rely heavily on semantics rather than physics.

In GR objects near the ground will in the absence of a force will follow straight line paths through space time that curves in such a way that the straightest path through space time is towards the ground.  The ground actually accelerates upwards to meat an object that you let go of but space time curves in such a way that even though the ground is accelerating upward at a constant rate the Earth does not expand as the effects of curved space time cancel the effects of the acceleration of the ground upward.

Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #81 on: October 19, 2015, 02:46:44 PM »
If you make an accurate statement, he doesn't refute it.
He refuted the statements that gravitational attraction obeys the inverse square law, and that it is capable of imparting motion to a static body. Both of those are accurate.

Newton's model follows the inverse square law.

Gravitation doesn't impart motion on a static body.

The inverse square law of Newton's model does not conflict with anything subsequently amended by the current gravity model. It still applies. It remains an accurate statement.
I genuinely fail to see how motion is NOT imparted to a static body by gravity. I suspect your lack of explanation is a deliberate attempt to get someone to disagree with you and trip up (strange, you're almost like the "Engineer"'s alt in that respect...) Therefore, I would like you to explain what imparts motion to an apple which I'm holding stationary, and then I let go of it. I strongly suspect your answer will rely heavily on semantics rather than physics.

Newton's model is great for most applications.  It doesn't work at relativistic speeds or in strong gravitational environments though, that is why we need Einstein's more complex model.  I use Newton's model all the time, it is a lot simpler to work with and provides an accurate answer for most applications.

Also, don't compare me to TheEngineer, that's a bit insulting.  Sorry for not explaining further, I was running errands, and typed out a quick response on my phone.  Mass curves/distorts space time.  The greater the mass, the greater the curvature/distortion.  The difficulty in seeing this is due to us being used to seeing objects in a non-curved space.  An object in free fall actually follows a straight line, but space time is curved/distorted, so it has the appearance that the object is curving/moving.  The easy way to visualize this is to think of how airline flights fly along great circle routes.  On a flat map, it appears the aircraft is flying a curved route, but if you look at the flight in a curved space (a globe), the flight is straight (neglecting the curvature of Earth, since it can't fly through the Earth).

Anyway, the surface of the Earth is accelerating up to meet the object, however, this isn't the same as a flat Earth accelerating upward as if propelled from underneath as the acceleration varies all over the surface of the Earth.  We can measure this acceleration with accelerometers to confirm that the acceleration varies across the globe.  If the flat Earth model were true, it would have ripped apart a long time ago due to these variations in acceleration at different points. 

Back to your original question, when you are holding an apple, you are accelerating the apple.  A force is required to hold it where it is as the apple wants to follow a geodesic to the center of mass that is causing the gravitational field.  Release the apple and it is no longer subject to the force from your hand and follows the geodesic towards the center of Earth's mass until the Earth has accelerated up to meet it.  Geodesics in a gravitational field can go in all sorts of directions depending on the initial motion of the object.

Now, all of that is harder to visualize and calculate.  If we switch the frame of reference, we get Newton's model, which is much simpler and easier to use.  To summarize, Einstein's model is correct and true (as far as we know at least) and Newton's model is correct for a certain set of circumstances (which includes dropping an apple from your hand).  Newton's model is never true, but it doesn't have to be to correctly answer most questions.  Most engineers understand this and I want to believe TheEngineer does as well.  If two models are both correct for the application, use the simpler model.

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TheEngineer

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Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #82 on: October 19, 2015, 09:05:09 PM »
Funny, I haven't used chemical reactions in 15 years.  I have never worked in metallurgy either.
Uh, ok...

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Also, funny thing is that I wasn't wrong here either.  I didn't even realize you were using GR until half way through our conversation.
So your initial instinct was wrong.  Ok.

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Not even an ME would use GR to calculate something as simple as an object falling from the top of a building.  Most ME's realize that Newton's model is great for most applications.
And?

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Only someone that gets their jollies off telling people they are wrong and needing reassurance that they are right would do that.
And?

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Unless of course you work for a company that designs and builds satellites. 
Something like that.

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I still haven't figured out why you are even here.
Why do you care?

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Also, don't compare me to TheEngineer, that's a bit insulting.
To me.


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Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #83 on: October 20, 2015, 05:24:38 AM »
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Also, funny thing is that I wasn't wrong here either.  I didn't even realize you were using GR until half way through our conversation.
So your initial instinct was wrong.  Ok.


Yes, that I will freely admit.  I was in a concurrent discussion with a guy claiming that gravitation is actually caused by air pressure.  I was on simple mode. 

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I still haven't figured out why you are even here.
Why do you care?


The human psyche intrigues me.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 05:26:20 AM by TexasH »

Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #84 on: October 20, 2015, 07:23:38 AM »
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I still haven't figured out why you are even here.
Why do you care?


The human psyche intrigues me.
I don't think there is anything profound going on here: some people enjoy being obnoxious pricks in environments were there won't be any repercussions.   In fact in this environment, as long as you are a flat earther, being an dick is implicitly approved.

The problem is that TheEngineer is nowhere near as clever or amusing as he seems to think he is.
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TheEngineer

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Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #85 on: October 20, 2015, 08:23:57 AM »
I don't think there is anything profound going on here: some people enjoy being obnoxious pricks in environments were there won't be any repercussions.   In fact in this environment, as long as you are a flat earther, being an dick is implicitly approved.
I think you meant to type 'round earther'.

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The problem is that TheEngineer is nowhere near as clever or amusing as he seems to think he is.
To RE'ers, that's usually how it works.  They can't stand being challenged and end up becoming bitter and hateful.  Happens all the time.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
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rabinoz

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Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #86 on: October 20, 2015, 04:08:59 PM »
The Engineer  This is highly off-topic, but so is everything else in this thread.

You say "GPS does not require satellites."  Oh, really!

and you call yourself TheEngineer! 
What other system could give that information anywhere on the earth's surface. 
Don't give me rubbish about Decca, Loran or balloons. 
As well all the reception characteristics point to frequencies in the expected range 1575.42 MHz and 1227.60 MHz for the original GPS and around 1.602 GHz and 1.246 GHz for GLONASS.
The expected satellites are shaded by walls. 
As a passenger in an aircraft, GPS only works very close to a window and only receives the satellites in the small part of the sky that is visible.
The tiny antennae in a handheld GPS also implies a frequency in the GHz range!

I have yet to get any comments on how this http://www.jma.go.jp/en/gms/smallc.html?area=6&element=1&time=201510202230 is produced.  It is near enough to "real-time", and can display infra-red (in false colour of course) or visible light (colour or BW) and does show currently observable cloud patterns (at least in the Eastern Hemisphere).  Yes, when you select animation the clouds do move!

Yes, I know!  Stratollites, Pseudolites, Balloons or high altitude aircraft.  Do you really believe that there could ever be enough to cover the remote areas of Australia, Siberia, the oceans or Antarctica.

I will have to grant you one thing!  Almost all pictures from space are CGI.  How else could digital data from satellites get displayed.  That does not mean that it is false!

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Son of Orospu

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Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #87 on: October 20, 2015, 04:57:04 PM »
My cell phone has no trouble telling me where I am, even with the GPS turned off.  Please don't tell me that the only way to know where you are is to get radio signals from flying space trashcans.  ::)

Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #88 on: October 20, 2015, 05:50:48 PM »
The Engineer  This is highly off-topic, but so is everything else in this thread.

You say "GPS does not require satellites."  Oh, really!

and you call yourself TheEngineer! 
What other system could give that information anywhere on the earth's surface. 
Don't give me rubbish about Decca, Loran or balloons. 
As well all the reception characteristics point to frequencies in the expected range 1575.42 MHz and 1227.60 MHz for the original GPS and around 1.602 GHz and 1.246 GHz for GLONASS.
The expected satellites are shaded by walls. 
As a passenger in an aircraft, GPS only works very close to a window and only receives the satellites in the small part of the sky that is visible.
The tiny antennae in a handheld GPS also implies a frequency in the GHz range!

I have yet to get any comments on how this http://www.jma.go.jp/en/gms/smallc.html?area=6&element=1&time=201510202230 is produced.  It is near enough to "real-time", and can display infra-red (in false colour of course) or visible light (colour or BW) and does show currently observable cloud patterns (at least in the Eastern Hemisphere).  Yes, when you select animation the clouds do move!

Yes, I know!  Stratollites, Pseudolites, Balloons or high altitude aircraft.  Do you really believe that there could ever be enough to cover the remote areas of Australia, Siberia, the oceans or Antarctica.

I will have to grant you one thing!  Almost all pictures from space are CGI.  How else could digital data from satellites get displayed.  That does not mean that it is false!

ExEngineer

Always read what TheEngineer says carefully.  "GPS does not require satellites." is not the same as "GPS does not use satellites."  You can triangulate locations using ground-based towers.  Law enforcement does this to locate a cell phone.  I have a feeling he actually works for Garmin (or similar GPS company). 

Also, TheEngineer isn't a FE'er, and I don't believe he has ever said satellites don't exist.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 05:53:14 PM by TexasH »

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Son of Orospu

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Re: The earth is round because of one simple observation.
« Reply #89 on: October 20, 2015, 05:58:57 PM »
Also, TheEngineer isn't a FE'er, and I don't believe he has ever said satellites don't exist.

This, my good sir, is heresy!