Poll

What is your opinion on the United States' gun laws at present?

They are far too restrictive.
8 (44.4%)
They are a little restrictive.
1 (5.6%)
They are fine as it is.
2 (11.1%)
They are a little relaxed.
1 (5.6%)
They are far too relaxed.
5 (27.8%)
None of the above (please specify)
1 (5.6%)

Total Members Voted: 18

Gun Violence in the United States

  • 407 Replies
  • 62553 Views
Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2015, 03:04:42 PM »
Whats are the  problems when it comes to gun laws . First ,once you register anything , you no longer have right of ownership .Only controlled regulated possession & the gun can be seized, impounded or destroyed at anytime. For any reason. Because you have agreed to giving up your right of ownership.
Second , registration follows in line with then having to obtain a license to operate the fire arm. Which  can be cancelled at anytime for any reason .in fact no reason has to be given by the issuing party to cancel suspend or revoke a license.
In vic Australia , the moment someone applys for a intervention or protection order against someone . No evedance required , they simply walk in to the court house & ask the register to apply & the register must  issued a intrim order till the matter goes before the magistrate.
This automatically  suspends your licence  & your guns have to be handed in. A person only has to claim they fear the other person & the protection order will be granted by the magistrate.  You then can  not  have a firearm licence or any guns registered in your name or your possession for 5 years .
Protection orders are used everyday as a means of extortion. Against licenced gun owners. Threats of losing your guns & licence & never haveing another licence issued to you ever agian . Has people excepting & complying with any demands placed on them. No matter how unlawful or unreasonable. Those demands are . Traffic infringement , pay up regardless. To chalange it can find you having a  protection order taken out on you. If the lying traffic officer wants to get creative or takes a dislike to you qestioning the ticket.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 03:29:31 PM by charles bloomington »
When it comes to Jane's standards .I'm lower then an old stove she has in her garage.
Shannon Noll and Natalie Bassingthwaighte - Don't…:

*

Son of Orospu

  • Jura's b*tch and proud of it!
  • Planar Moderator
  • 37834
  • I have artificial intelligence
Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #61 on: October 25, 2015, 03:08:45 PM »
You tell it, Charles. 

Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #62 on: October 26, 2015, 12:27:00 AM »
False flags a rife. When it comes to the anti gun agenda. Once they remove all the guns from the public, there will be absolute tyranny. Absolute servitude . Dont kid your self there wont be. The people who contive theses staged events only have one thing in mind .totally control over every thing & God help the rest of us.
http://nodisinfo.com/absolute-proof-virginia-tv-anchor-shooting-is-a-gun-control-zionist-plot/
When it comes to Jane's standards .I'm lower then an old stove she has in her garage.
Shannon Noll and Natalie Bassingthwaighte - Don't…:

*

Scroto Gaggins

  • 671
  • Hobbiton represent
Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #63 on: October 26, 2015, 01:31:28 AM »
False flags a rife. When it comes to the anti gun agenda. Once they remove all the guns from the public, there will be absolute tyranny. Absolute servitude . Dont kid your self there wont be. The people who contive theses staged events only have one thing in mind .totally control over every thing & God help the rest of us.
http://nodisinfo.com/absolute-proof-virginia-tv-anchor-shooting-is-a-gun-control-zionist-plot/
Why would taking all guns ever be plausible?
Surely it is not unreasonable to have some (read. more) regulations.
They are taking the hobbits to Isengard.

*

Scroto Gaggins

  • 671
  • Hobbiton represent
Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #64 on: October 26, 2015, 01:57:17 AM »
I was talking to a friend about gun control and he brought up an interesting point of view.
What if we make it really easy for registered gun owners to have all kinds of firearms and have concealed carry etc.
But we make it a lot harder for people to get gun registration.
eg. felons and the mentally ill won't have access.
Could this work?

That is pretty much the way it already is here in the US.  The problem is that anyone can get an illegal firearm.  Laws only stop people from getting legal weapons.
So if laws won't stop illegal acts from taking place, as you are claiming, then why do you think we have laws?

If someone wants to break into your house to steal your TV, do you think they even consider that it is against the law to do so?
If we extend your argument the other way, where there are no laws or comparatively less laws restricting stealing, then wouldn't people be more likely to steal?
If murder was legal, for example, then wouldn't the murder rate increase?

And on the subject of the black market, of course felons would still get guns.
But most murders in the US arise out of non-felonious circumstances.
The leading cause given fro murder was an argument unrelated to money (according to the FBI).
We can assume that a lot of these murders were impulse based.
Someone insults you or yours so you pull out a handgun and shoot them.
Maybe, retrospectively, you wouldn't have done that.
That's the problem with guns.
In the Joker's words, "They're too quick"

And the comment about anyone being able to get an illegal firearm.
A semiautomatic pistol like a M9 or a Glock costs about 15000 dollars Australian on the black market.
If you have 15 grand lying around, you probably aren't a. Mentally ill, or b. a felon.
Think about how much an assault rifle would cost on the black market in Aus.
If on is on Australia's minimum wage, then a semiautomatic pistol costs about half of your before tax income per year.
A black market pistol in the US costs a few hundred bucks a pop.
Not impossible, even on minimum wage.
They are taking the hobbits to Isengard.

Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #65 on: October 26, 2015, 04:28:51 AM »
False flags a rife. When it comes to the anti gun agenda. Once they remove all the guns from the public, there will be absolute tyranny. Absolute servitude . Dont kid your self there wont be. The people who contive theses staged events only have one thing in mind .totally control over every thing & God help the rest of us.
http://nodisinfo.com/absolute-proof-virginia-tv-anchor-shooting-is-a-gun-control-zionist-plot/
Why would taking all guns ever be plausible?
Surely it is not unreasonable to have some (read. more) regulations.
Why the desperation to bring in gun control & disarming of the public ? Why the false flags . Surely if their motives were above board. They wouldn't be having to stooping to such sly dishonest fraudulent tactics.
So whats the reasoning? Could it be the wheels have fallen of the implementation of Agenda 21 & their planned one world order.  Could it be their worried the public  wont swallow any more of their multitude of lies & bullshit for much longer. And  will want to bring those that have been committing treason for profit for past 23 year to justice .for selling their fellow country man out . By swearing alegent's to a foreign entity the UN & destroying their own countries sovereignty. The very sovereignty they are supposedly elected to protect.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 04:37:30 AM by charles bloomington »
When it comes to Jane's standards .I'm lower then an old stove she has in her garage.
Shannon Noll and Natalie Bassingthwaighte - Don't…:

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
  • 15483
  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #66 on: October 26, 2015, 08:59:12 AM »
I see this post was, and continues to be, ignored:

So, engineer, I think I addressed all your points.
Now be a good boy and reciprocate.
You forgot this one, which I think is the heart of your argument:

Quote
Lol.   What an asinine statement to make.  Are you 16?  I have a family. I have children that I would do anything to protect.  I wouldn't roll over and let them be killed.

Enough with the foolishness.  Let's look at a real world example of gun restrictions and what effect that has on the society.

Washington, DC.

In the 5 years leading up to the 1977 ban, the murder rate fell from 37 to 27 per 100,000 people.
In the five years after the ban took effect, the murder rate went up to 35/100,000.  Then there was a massive increase in the 90's to 81/100,000!
Between 2008 and 2012, the FBI statistics indicate that murders declined by about 10% nationally for cities sized similar to DC. 
In late 2008, the gun ban was struck down.  In the following four years (2008-2012), murder rate dropped by 42%!

Gun Ownership vs Gun Murder

The top 10 states for gun ownership have ownership rates of >50% and an average gun murder rate of 1.87 per 100,000 people.

The bottom 10 states for gun ownership have ownership rates of <22% and an average gun murder rate of 3.98 per 100,000 people.

If we split the country in half and look at the numbers:
The top 26 states in gun ownership rates have a combined average gun murder rate of 2.33 per 100,000 people.

The bottom 25 (this includes Washington, DC which has the lowest gun ownership rate in the US) has a combined average murder rate of 3.27 per 100,000 people.

The stats seem pretty clear.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

*

mikeman7918

  • 5431
  • Round Earther
Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #67 on: October 26, 2015, 10:18:16 AM »
I see this post was, and continues to be, ignored:

Probobaly because most of the people here agree with you.
I am having a video war with Jeranism.
See the thread about it here.

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
  • 15483
  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #68 on: October 26, 2015, 12:42:32 PM »
I was talking to Scroto since he is still going off on the regulation of firearms.

Surely it is not unreasonable to have some (read. more) regulations.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #69 on: October 26, 2015, 02:37:53 PM »
Lets examine . The law & the reasoning for the push for gun registration & licence .
Common law .no registration & licence required.  Complainant - victom or damage for crime to of taken place & required before conviction of a crime. The prosecution has to prove the accused committed a crime .They have the  burden to prove.
UCC law, registration & licence required to in force commercial code . only informent required, stating code has been breached. For conviction. Burden of proof rests with the accused. To prove they didnt do it. The code  rests on facts . Whats the biggest fact the court will determine. If the gun is registered &  licensed to you. If so you have given up all your rights & are bound to the contract. No proof required only sworn  affidavit from  informant is required for conviction.
You can see why they want you to register the fire arm & hold a licence.
When it comes to Jane's standards .I'm lower then an old stove she has in her garage.
Shannon Noll and Natalie Bassingthwaighte - Don't…:

Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2015, 03:21:12 PM »
I've tried my best to simplify the clarity, from the smoke & mirrors . Basically common law requires a victim or damaged party for there to be a crime  .UCC only requires a breach of a clause in a contract. Which is any clause they have written in to the contract. Including any clause they have written in allowing them to change a clause during the duration of that contract. Along with any clause allowing them not to have to give  notification of any changes  to the registered licenced party. The UCC is drafted to give corporate governments the total upper hand on the public & remove your common law  right of a fair hearing & trial.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 03:28:31 PM by charles bloomington »
When it comes to Jane's standards .I'm lower then an old stove she has in her garage.
Shannon Noll and Natalie Bassingthwaighte - Don't…:

*

Scroto Gaggins

  • 671
  • Hobbiton represent
Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2015, 03:33:05 PM »
I see this post was, and continues to be, ignored:

So, engineer, I think I addressed all your points.
Now be a good boy and reciprocate.
You forgot this one, which I think is the heart of your argument:

Quote
Lol.   What an asinine statement to make.  Are you 16?  I have a family. I have children that I would do anything to protect.  I wouldn't roll over and let them be killed.

Enough with the foolishness.  Let's look at a real world example of gun restrictions and what effect that has on the society.

Washington, DC.

In the 5 years leading up to the 1977 ban, the murder rate fell from 37 to 27 per 100,000 people.
In the five years after the ban took effect, the murder rate went up to 35/100,000.  Then there was a massive increase in the 90's to 81/100,000!
Between 2008 and 2012, the FBI statistics indicate that murders declined by about 10% nationally for cities sized similar to DC. 
In late 2008, the gun ban was struck down.  In the following four years (2008-2012), murder rate dropped by 42%!

Gun Ownership vs Gun Murder

The top 10 states for gun ownership have ownership rates of >50% and an average gun murder rate of 1.87 per 100,000 people.

The bottom 10 states for gun ownership have ownership rates of <22% and an average gun murder rate of 3.98 per 100,000 people.

If we split the country in half and look at the numbers:
The top 26 states in gun ownership rates have a combined average gun murder rate of 2.33 per 100,000 people.

The bottom 25 (this includes Washington, DC which has the lowest gun ownership rate in the US) has a combined average murder rate of 3.27 per 100,000 people.

The stats seem pretty clear.
When I brought up the comparatively high murder rate and gun ownership rate of the entire USA (compared to other first world countries) , then the response was that there was other factors that need to be taken into account.
If that is the reaction to my bringing up statistics, then it should be the same when you bring up statistics.

But, addressing your stats, I would say that unless the USA has a vastly different societal outlook on, and tolerance of violence, then we should see the same results repeated internationally.
i.e. the US has the highest gun ownership, therefore they should have the lowest murder. Japan has low gun ownership, therefore they should have higher murder rates.

Btw, my entire argument is predicated on the assumption that Americans have the same inclination to violence as other first world citizens. This could be wrong.
They are taking the hobbits to Isengard.

Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #72 on: October 26, 2015, 03:51:57 PM »
Forget the statistics.  It all boils down to them wanting you to contract away your inalienable right to defend your self & hiring them to do the defending on your  behalf  for a fee. That would be great if it wasn't for the fact , that they are increasingly becoming the persons you need to be defended from .
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 03:53:36 PM by charles bloomington »
When it comes to Jane's standards .I'm lower then an old stove she has in her garage.
Shannon Noll and Natalie Bassingthwaighte - Don't…:

*

Scroto Gaggins

  • 671
  • Hobbiton represent
Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #73 on: October 26, 2015, 04:07:07 PM »
Forget the statistics.  It all boils down to them wanting you to contract away your inalienable right to defend your self & hiring them to do the defending on your  behalf  for a fee. That would be great if it wasn't for the fact , that they are increasingly becoming the persons you need to be defended from .
To which government are you referring?
They are taking the hobbits to Isengard.

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
  • 15483
  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #74 on: October 26, 2015, 11:33:45 PM »
But, addressing your stats, I would say that unless the USA has a vastly different societal outlook on, and tolerance of violence, then we should see the same results repeated internationally.
i.e. the US has the highest gun ownership, therefore they should have the lowest murder. Japan has low gun ownership, therefore they should have higher murder rates.
That does not address my stats: When gun ownership is high, gun murder rates are low.  When gun ownership rates are low, gun murder rates are high.

The stats don't lie and are pretty clear on this one.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

*

Scroto Gaggins

  • 671
  • Hobbiton represent
Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #75 on: October 27, 2015, 01:57:11 AM »
But, addressing your stats, I would say that unless the USA has a vastly different societal outlook on, and tolerance of violence, then we should see the same results repeated internationally.
i.e. the US has the highest gun ownership, therefore they should have the lowest murder. Japan has low gun ownership, therefore they should have higher murder rates.
That does not address my stats: When gun ownership is high, gun murder rates are low.  When gun ownership rates are low, gun murder rates are high.

The stats don't lie and are pretty clear on this one.
The USA has the highest gun ownership in the first world, and the highest gun death rate and gun murder rate in the first world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

These stats contradict what you are saying, do they not?
They are taking the hobbits to Isengard.

Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #76 on: October 27, 2015, 04:52:52 AM »
Forget the statistics.  It all boils down to them wanting you to contract away your inalienable right to defend your self & hiring them to do the defending on your  behalf  for a fee. That would be great if it wasn't for the fact , that they are increasingly becoming the persons you need to be defended from .
To which government are you referring?
All corporate Governments that are signatories to the UN  agenda21.
Please spare me the bullshit they have our best interest &well being at heart.
Wanting to introduce a carbon tax to address climate change . When their the ones that are  phucking with the climate.
Carbon tax  what a great idea to milk the public of more of their hard earned labour notes & property . Level playing field . Phuck off  its sure not a fair one.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-16/lanis-govendir-malcolm-turnbull-and-tax-avoidance/6861606
Thats the real reason they want to disarm the public of their fire arms . The average man in the street  might just tell them to phuck right off with their continual demands for more & more tax duties rates & fines . With the fire power to back that  phuck right  off  up.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 05:12:38 AM by charles bloomington »
When it comes to Jane's standards .I'm lower then an old stove she has in her garage.
Shannon Noll and Natalie Bassingthwaighte - Don't…:

Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #77 on: October 27, 2015, 05:07:30 AM »
Turnbull states that he invested overseas so as to avoid potential conflicts of interest.
What conflict  of interest would that be scrotum Gaggins .Paying tax ? You know tax , what they extort out of the avarage bloke everyday .
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 05:14:29 AM by charles bloomington »
When it comes to Jane's standards .I'm lower then an old stove she has in her garage.
Shannon Noll and Natalie Bassingthwaighte - Don't…:

*

Scroto Gaggins

  • 671
  • Hobbiton represent
Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #78 on: October 27, 2015, 05:34:42 AM »
Turnbull states that he invested overseas so as to avoid potential conflicts of interest.
What conflict  of interest would that be scrotum Gaggins .Paying tax ? You know tax , what they extort out of the avarage bloke everyday .
I cant speak for Turnbull, as I'm not him.
And I am aware of what tax is, as I do pay it.
But at the end of the day, my owning a firearm is not going to stop Turnbull investing in the Cayman Islands.
If you don't like the Liberal Party, vote Labour. It's that simple.
They are taking the hobbits to Isengard.

Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #79 on: October 27, 2015, 06:24:08 AM »
Turnbull states that he invested overseas so as to avoid potential conflicts of interest.
What conflict  of interest would that be scrotum Gaggins .Paying tax ? You know tax , what they extort out of the avarage bloke everyday .
I cant speak for Turnbull, as I'm not him.
And I am aware of what tax is, as I do pay it.
But at the end of the day, my owning a firearm is not going to stop Turnbull investing in the Cayman Islands.
If you don't like the Liberal Party, vote Labour. It's that simple.
Why would I want to vote ? Why do I need to vote for any of theses de facto's imposter's ? 
Why would I want to be their  ward & make them my trusty & beneficiary ? Why would I want to give up my inalienable rights? Since when was I part  of their privetly owned corporation. ? The fact is only those who are employees of their privetly owned corperation  has to vote. Their company  constitution does not apply to those who are not employees or share holders & I'm sure as hell dont wish to contract with them nor want their service's. 
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 06:34:32 AM by charles bloomington »
When it comes to Jane's standards .I'm lower then an old stove she has in her garage.
Shannon Noll and Natalie Bassingthwaighte - Don't…:

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
  • 15483
  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #80 on: October 27, 2015, 12:02:06 PM »
But, addressing your stats, I would say that unless the USA has a vastly different societal outlook on, and tolerance of violence, then we should see the same results repeated internationally.
i.e. the US has the highest gun ownership, therefore they should have the lowest murder. Japan has low gun ownership, therefore they should have higher murder rates.
That does not address my stats: When gun ownership is high, gun murder rates are low.  When gun ownership rates are low, gun murder rates are high.

The stats don't lie and are pretty clear on this one.
The USA has the highest gun ownership in the first world, and the highest gun death rate and gun murder rate in the first world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

These stats contradict what you are saying, do they not?
Not at all.  The US is not like the rest of the NATO aligned countries, why would we compare the US to Greece?  We are very different countries.

Look at the stats within the US.  They are clear.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

*

Scroto Gaggins

  • 671
  • Hobbiton represent
Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #81 on: October 27, 2015, 02:31:56 PM »
But, addressing your stats, I would say that unless the USA has a vastly different societal outlook on, and tolerance of violence, then we should see the same results repeated internationally.
i.e. the US has the highest gun ownership, therefore they should have the lowest murder. Japan has low gun ownership, therefore they should have higher murder rates.
That does not address my stats: When gun ownership is high, gun murder rates are low.  When gun ownership rates are low, gun murder rates are high.

The stats don't lie and are pretty clear on this one.
The USA has the highest gun ownership in the first world, and the highest gun death rate and gun murder rate in the first world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

These stats contradict what you are saying, do they not?
Not at all.  The US is not like the rest of the NATO aligned countries, why would we compare the US to Greece?  We are very different countries.

Look at the stats within the US.  They are clear.
So are you saying that Americans are more inclined to violence than the Greeks?
What about Canadians? Australians?
What huge differences exist between these countries and yours that could lead to such a different murder rate?

If population density is the root cause, as you said earlier, then holland, with one of the highest population densities in the world, should have one of the highest murder rates in the world.

Like I said earlier, I am basing my argument on the fact that Americans are normal people.
I may be wrong.
They are taking the hobbits to Isengard.

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
  • 15483
  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #82 on: October 27, 2015, 07:43:12 PM »
So are you saying that Americans are more inclined to violence than the Greeks?
What about Canadians? Australians?
What huge differences exist between these countries and yours that could lead to such a different murder rate?
Lots.

Quote
If population density is the root cause, as you said earlier
No, I said urban density, not population density.

Quote
Like I said earlier, I am basing my argument on the fact that Americans are normal people.
I may be wrong.
And I am showing you the stats, which you don't want to accept or even acknowledge. 


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

*

Scroto Gaggins

  • 671
  • Hobbiton represent
Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #83 on: October 28, 2015, 06:50:06 AM »
So are you saying that Americans are more inclined to violence than the Greeks?
What about Canadians? Australians?
What huge differences exist between these countries and yours that could lead to such a different murder rate?
Lots.
I said what differences, not how many.

Quote
Quote
If population density is the root cause, as you said earlier
No, I said urban density, not population density.
What about tokyo for example?

Quote
Quote
Like I said earlier, I am basing my argument on the fact that Americans are normal people.
I may be wrong.
And I am showing you the stats, which you don't want to accept or even acknowledge.
So do your stats show that americans are not normal people? Or are they?
Even the 25 highest gun ownership states have a higher murder rate than first-world countries.
My question is why.
They are taking the hobbits to Isengard.

*

mikeman7918

  • 5431
  • Round Earther
Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #84 on: October 28, 2015, 07:59:21 AM »
I'm not sure what is causing all the crime in the US, but I can tell you that it's not guns.  If it were guns the states with high gun ownership would have more crime then states with low gun ownership, but in reality that trend is reversed.  Internationally there is no correlation between gun ownership and crime.  The statistics make it clear that guns lower crime rates, but they are still a rather small factor compared to other things.
I am having a video war with Jeranism.
See the thread about it here.

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
  • 15483
  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #85 on: October 28, 2015, 10:43:15 AM »
So do your stats show that americans are not normal people? Or are they?
Even the 25 highest gun ownership states have a higher murder rate than first-world countries.
My question is why.
Your argument was about gun restrictions, not culture.  The stats show, very clearly, that states with high gun ownership rates have lower gun murder rates than those with low gun ownership rates.  And why do you keep restricting the argument to NATO aligned countries?


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

*

Scroto Gaggins

  • 671
  • Hobbiton represent
Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #86 on: October 28, 2015, 03:52:04 PM »
I'm not sure what is causing all the crime in the US, but I can tell you that it's not guns.  If it were guns the states with high gun ownership would have more crime then states with low gun ownership, but in reality that trend is reversed.  Internationally there is no correlation between gun ownership and crime.  The statistics make it clear that guns lower crime rates, but they are still a rather small factor compared to other things.
Like I said before, if guns lower crime rates, then the US should have the lowest crime rate in the world.
And if they are a small factor, then the removal of them shouldn't cause much strife, should it?


So do your stats show that americans are not normal people? Or are they?
Even the 25 highest gun ownership states have a higher murder rate than first-world countries.
My question is why.
Your argument was about gun restrictions, not culture.  The stats show, very clearly, that states with high gun ownership rates have lower gun murder rates than those with low gun ownership rates.  And why do you keep restricting the argument to NATO aligned countries?
And how do you propose we change that culture? What policies can be put in place that change gun culture?

Also, in one sentence you mention how you think your argument works in the US, in the next sentence, you criticise me for sticking to first-world (not NATO) countries.
You can't have the privileges of being specific while denying that to me.

The reason why I'm restricting my argument to first-world countries is as they all are fairly similar, in terms of freedom, governmental stability and societal sophistication.
Comparing the US to, for example, Rwanda and Somalia isn't a fair comparison, as they do not have a stable government and have active rebellions.

This is my point though.
Gun control in the first world is linked to lower crime and murder rates.
In the US, it appears not to be.

However, you are making a very big mistake if you think that all gun control policies are the same.
Switzerland's gun policy means that to own a gun, one must serve in the military.
In Australia and New Zealand, a lot of paperwork and licensing has to be gone through to get firearms.

Gun control is a blanket term for any legislation which restricts to some extent the purchasing, using and carrying of firearms.
There are obviously policies that work, and those that don't.
They are taking the hobbits to Isengard.

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
  • 15483
  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #87 on: October 28, 2015, 09:36:28 PM »
Like I said before, if guns lower crime rates, then the US should have the lowest crime rate in the world.
And if they are a small factor, then the removal of them shouldn't cause much strife, should it?
My stats show the opposite.  I don't know why you keep failing to address that point.

Quote
And how do you propose we change that culture? What policies can be put in place that change gun culture?
I don't want any policies.  Those without freedom always run to the government for help.  I don't want the government involved in changing any culture.

Quote
Also, in one sentence you mention how you think your argument works in the US, in the next sentence, you criticise me for sticking to first-world (not NATO) countries.
You can't have the privileges of being specific while denying that to me.
I'm asking why you are limiting your crime rate stats to NATO countries.  That doesn't make sense.  Does Brazil not count?  What about Mexico?  The only reason you would do that is to push your narrative.

Quote
Gun control in the first world is linked to lower crime and murder rates.
In the US, it appears not to be.
Right, so why are you pushing for more gun control in the US?  You want the murder rate to go up?

Quote
However, you are making a very big mistake if you think that all gun control policies are the same.
Who said that?

Quote
Switzerland's gun policy means that to own a gun, one must serve in the military.
Yep, and that is a horrible idea.

Quote
In Australia and New Zealand, a lot of paperwork and licensing has to be gone through to get firearms.
Again, horrible idea.

Quote
Gun control is a blanket term for any legislation which restricts to some extent the purchasing, using and carrying of firearms
Yes, I understand English.

Quote
There are obviously policies that work, and those that don't.
And in the US, gun control policies don't work.  As is evidenced by the stats.  Which you still ignore.

« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 09:40:41 PM by TheEngineer »


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

*

Scroto Gaggins

  • 671
  • Hobbiton represent
Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #88 on: October 29, 2015, 01:51:09 AM »
Like I said before, if guns lower crime rates, then the US should have the lowest crime rate in the world.
And if they are a small factor, then the removal of them shouldn't cause much strife, should it?
My stats show the opposite.  I don't know why you keep failing to address that point.
My stats show the opposite to your stats. I don't know why you keep failing to address that point.

Quote
Quote
And how do you propose we change that culture? What policies can be put in place that change gun culture?
I don't want any policies.  Those without freedom always run to the government for help.  I don't want the government involved in changing any culture.
Then address the first part of that quote.

Quote
Quote
Also, in one sentence you mention how you think your argument works in the US, in the next sentence, you criticise me for sticking to first-world (not NATO) countries.
You can't have the privileges of being specific while denying that to me.
I'm asking why you are limiting your crime rate stats to NATO countries.  That doesn't make sense.  Does Brazil not count?  What about Mexico?  The only reason you would do that is to push your narrative.
Or because it makes sense to compare countries that are more alike, rather than those that aren't.

Quote
Quote
Gun control in the first world is linked to lower crime and murder rates.
In the US, it appears not to be.
Right, so why are you pushing for more gun control in the US?  You want the murder rate to go up?
I said this to point out that if better gun control is instituted, then maybe the trends seen won't be.

Quote
Quote
However, you are making a very big mistake if you think that all gun control policies are the same.
Who said that?
All of you implied it when bringing up DC and Chicago, for example. Just because a policy doesn't work in one place, doesn't mean that gun control in all forms will have the same effect.

Quote
Quote
Switzerland's gun policy means that to own a gun, one must serve in the military.
Yep, and that is a horrible idea.
Doesn't the Second Amendment mention a well-regulated militia?
Isn't that what switzerland has?
Explain why this is a horrible idea?

Quote
Quote
In Australia and New Zealand, a lot of paperwork and licensing has to be gone through to get firearms.
Again, horrible idea.
Again, why?

Quote
Quote
Gun control is a blanket term for any legislation which restricts to some extent the purchasing, using and carrying of firearms
Yes, I understand English.
I wasn't aware of that when I typed a reply. In English.

Quote
Quote
There are obviously policies that work, and those that don't.
And in the US, gun control policies don't work.  As is evidenced by the stats.  Which you still ignore.
[/quote]
Then better policies need to be established.
I believe I posted stats which show that homicide, suicide and accidental death by firearm increases where there are more firearms.
I also believe that you did not address them.
They are taking the hobbits to Isengard.

*

Son of Orospu

  • Jura's b*tch and proud of it!
  • Planar Moderator
  • 37834
  • I have artificial intelligence
Re: Gun Violence in the United States
« Reply #89 on: October 29, 2015, 05:00:33 AM »
I was talking to a friend about gun control and he brought up an interesting point of view.
What if we make it really easy for registered gun owners to have all kinds of firearms and have concealed carry etc.
But we make it a lot harder for people to get gun registration.
eg. felons and the mentally ill won't have access.
Could this work?

That is pretty much the way it already is here in the US.  The problem is that anyone can get an illegal firearm.  Laws only stop people from getting legal weapons.
So if laws won't stop illegal acts from taking place, as you are claiming, then why do you think we have laws?

If someone wants to break into your house to steal your TV, do you think they even consider that it is against the law to do so?
If we extend your argument the other way, where there are no laws or comparatively less laws restricting stealing, then wouldn't people be more likely to steal?
If murder was legal, for example, then wouldn't the murder rate increase?

And on the subject of the black market, of course felons would still get guns.
But most murders in the US arise out of non-felonious circumstances.
The leading cause given fro murder was an argument unrelated to money (according to the FBI).
We can assume that a lot of these murders were impulse based.
Someone insults you or yours so you pull out a handgun and shoot them.
Maybe, retrospectively, you wouldn't have done that.
That's the problem with guns.
In the Joker's words, "They're too quick"

And the comment about anyone being able to get an illegal firearm.
A semiautomatic pistol like a M9 or a Glock costs about 15000 dollars Australian on the black market.
If you have 15 grand lying around, you probably aren't a. Mentally ill, or b. a felon.
Think about how much an assault rifle would cost on the black market in Aus.
If on is on Australia's minimum wage, then a semiautomatic pistol costs about half of your before tax income per year.
A black market pistol in the US costs a few hundred bucks a pop.
Not impossible, even on minimum wage.

I did not say that there should be no laws.  I said that making things illegal does not deter people from doing those things.  Un-prescribed drugs are illegal in most countries, yet people still do drugs.  Murder has always been illegal, yet people have always killed each other.  What makes you think that making a tool illegal is going to stop people from being violent?  How many people are killed by hammers or screwdrivers every year in the world?  Should those tools be illegal too?