People on skateboards.

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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #810 on: December 09, 2015, 10:35:42 AM »
Work is fire times distance

Teh Lulz!!!

What about portion of the gas that is travelling away from the opening to vacuum. Work must be done on the gas to change its direction.

No; the gas simply uses the energy it had already stored through being pressurised to expand, freely, into the Zero-pressure vacuum.

But as it meets Zero resistance on the way, it does Zero work.

And, of course, any momentum it already had would therefore be conserved.

You lot really do need to stop molesting the laws of physics  & just admit that a gas will do Zero work in a vacuum.

Work = Pressure x Increase in Volume; when Pressure = Zero, then Work = Zero.

Nothing can come from Nothing; Zero = Zero...

If you disagree, please demonstrate otherwise...

Thank you please!
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sokarul

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #811 on: December 09, 2015, 10:40:47 AM »
Still can't afford a smart phone I see.


Why would you use the pressure of a vacuum to get the work done by the gas?  The gas has a pressure.
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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #812 on: December 09, 2015, 10:43:42 AM »
Work is fire times distance

Teh Lulz #1!!!

Why would you use the pressure of a vacuum to get the work done by the gas?  The gas has a pressure.

Teh Lulz #2!!!

What about portion of the gas that is travelling away from the opening to vacuum. Work must be done on the gas to change its direction.

No; the gas simply uses the energy it had already stored through being pressurised to expand, freely, into the Zero-pressure vacuum.

But as it meets Zero resistance on the way, it does Zero work.

And, of course, any momentum it already had would therefore be conserved.

You lot really do need to stop molesting the laws of physics  & just admit that a gas will do Zero work in a vacuum.

Work = Pressure x Increase in Volume; when Pressure = Zero, then Work = Zero.

Nothing can come from Nothing; Zero = Zero...

If you disagree, please demonstrate otherwise...

Thank you please!
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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sokarul

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #813 on: December 09, 2015, 10:47:19 AM »
What about miss quoting?

Edit: Oh good you fixed it.
Where does friction come into either if the work equations?

Why is it funny to use an equation incorrectly?


What pressurized the gas in your explanation?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 10:49:05 AM by sokarul »
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markjo

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #814 on: December 09, 2015, 11:39:30 AM »
What about portion of the gas that is travelling away from the opening to vacuum. Work must be done on the gas to change its direction.

No; the gas simply uses the energy it had already stored through being pressurised to expand, freely, into the Zero-pressure vacuum.
Isn't using energy considered work?

Also

Using energy to expand freely?

WTF? ???
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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luckyfred

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #815 on: December 09, 2015, 11:40:54 AM »
But if expansion in vacuum does not produce work why the gas should use its Energy to expand?


Therefore what happens to all the energy that the gas has?

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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #816 on: December 09, 2015, 11:58:00 AM »
Isn't using energy considered work

Not when none of that energy is lost in the form of work, because it is not encountering resistance.

I said 'using', not 'losing'.

'Losing' is what you rat-pack of space-shills are doing...

Arguing for Something out of Nothing.

*Yawn!*
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luckyfred

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #817 on: December 09, 2015, 12:15:01 PM »
So u're gasses are using Energy for what? Energy only transforms so the energy of the gas (mainly thermal and kinetical) what becomes?

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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #818 on: December 09, 2015, 12:25:40 PM »
*Yawn!*

The gas simply uses the energy it had already stored, through being pressurised, to expand, freely, into the Zero-pressure vacuum.

But as it meets Zero resistance on the way, it loses Zero energy & does Zero work.

And, of course, any momentum it already had would therefore be conserved.

You lot really do need to stop molesting the laws of physics  & just admit that a gas will do Zero work in a vacuum.

Work = Pressure x Increase in Volume; when Pressure = Zero, then Work = Zero.

Nothing can come from Nothing; Zero = Zero...

If you disagree, please demonstrate otherwise...

Thank you please!
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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luckyfred

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #819 on: December 09, 2015, 12:36:09 PM »
How much do u think u know about fluid  and thermo dynamics?

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markjo

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #820 on: December 09, 2015, 12:51:07 PM »
Isn't using energy considered work

Not when none of that energy is lost in the form of work, because it is not encountering resistance.
Since when is resistance a part of the definition of work?  ???
When a force acts upon an object to cause a displacement of the object, it is said that work was done upon the object.

I said 'using', not 'losing'.
Energy is never lost, even when used.  As with momentum, energy is always conserved.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #821 on: December 09, 2015, 01:13:58 PM »
Energy is never lost, even when used.  As with momentum, energy is always conserved.

LOL!!!

You just do not care how much of a fool you make of yourself, do you?

A genuine psychopath...
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Mainframes

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #822 on: December 09, 2015, 01:23:36 PM »
Energy is never lost, even when used.  As with momentum, energy is always conserved.

LOL!!!

You just do not care how much of a fool you make of yourself, do you?

A genuine psychopath...

Energy cannot be created or destroyed. It only changes form.

Conservation of energy.

If can't understand the most basic of principles then you can't debate jack squat.
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance or stupidity.

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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #823 on: December 09, 2015, 01:27:51 PM »
LULZ!!!

Another psychopath joins the shill-storm!

Please read what I wrote:

*Yawn!*

The gas simply uses the energy it had already stored, through being pressurised, to expand, freely, into the Zero-pressure vacuum.

But as it meets Zero resistance on the way, it loses Zero energy & does Zero work.

And, of course, any momentum it already had would therefore be conserved.

You lot really do need to stop molesting the laws of physics  & just admit that a gas will do Zero work in a vacuum.

Work = Pressure x Increase in Volume; when Pressure = Zero, then Work = Zero.

Nothing can come from Nothing; Zero = Zero...

If you disagree, please demonstrate otherwise...

Thank you please!

Why are you all agreeing with me, yet trying to make out you are not?

Is it because you are psychopaths?

I think it is!

LOL!!!
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Mainframes

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #824 on: December 09, 2015, 01:36:32 PM »
LULZ!!!

Another psychopath joins the shill-storm!

Please read what I wrote:

*Yawn!*

The gas simply uses the energy it had already stored, through being pressurised, to expand, freely, into the Zero-pressure vacuum.

But as it meets Zero resistance on the way, it loses Zero energy & does Zero work.

And, of course, any momentum it already had would therefore be conserved.

You lot really do need to stop molesting the laws of physics  & just admit that a gas will do Zero work in a vacuum.

Work = Pressure x Increase in Volume; when Pressure = Zero, then Work = Zero.

Nothing can come from Nothing; Zero = Zero...

If you disagree, please demonstrate otherwise...

Thank you please!

Why are you all agreeing with me, yet trying to make out you are not?

Is it because you are psychopaths?

I think it is!

LOL!!!

Something can come from nothing.

0 = -1 + 1

When you understand vector mechanics then this will make sense to you.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 01:38:55 PM by Mainframes »
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sceptimatic

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #825 on: December 09, 2015, 02:37:30 PM »
Something can come from nothing.

0 = -1 + 1

When you understand vector mechanics then this will make sense to you.
This is the reason why the mainstream science world can get away with filling people with bullshit.

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sokarul

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #826 on: December 09, 2015, 02:53:32 PM »
What about miss quoting?

Edit: Oh good you fixed it.
Where does friction come into either if the work equations?

Why is it funny to use an equation incorrectly?


What pressurized the gas in your explanation?
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rabinoz

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #827 on: December 09, 2015, 03:51:54 PM »
LOL!!!  LOL!!!  LOL!!!  LOL!!!
Plus Wtf?
LOL!!!  Plus LOL!!!  LOL!!!  LOL!!!
In conclusion: LOL-a-pa-LOSERS!!!
I am so glad that you are getting such a laugh at this, but do you know what an "equation" is?  In case you had not heard it lets you calculate things when you know the variables involved.  You might them useful at times - just ask "The Engineer", he knows all about them and has only ever made ONE mistake!

So FORGET about a vacuum (it's nothing anyway).  The well accepted static thrust equation for a rocket is
T = m.Ve + (Pe - Po).Ae 
where T is static thrust,                               (in N - pretty small, so you'll get a lot of them)
where m is mass flow,                                 (in kg/sec)
Ve is exhaust velocity,               (in m/sec)
Pe is exhaust pressure,              (in Pascals - though it's a tiny unit being 1N/m2)
Po is ambient pressure ,            (in Pascals - though it's a tiny unit being 1N/m2)
Ae is the exhaust area.              (in m2)

If you don't accept this as giving us the static thrust of the rocket, either give us the correct one or just say you know nothing about rockets.

As the ambient pressure falls the static thrust rises.  Actually for a well designed nozzle the"pressure difference" term should be small, but it is always there.
So, I ask again at what ambient pressure does this rocket suddenly stop working?  And WHY?
PS forget about the laughs, we have had about all we can take for now.

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markjo

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #828 on: December 09, 2015, 06:35:05 PM »
Something can come from nothing.

0 = -1 + 1

When you understand vector mechanics then this will make sense to you.
This is the reason why the mainstream science world can get away with filling people with bullshit.
So now you're saying that Newton's 3rd is bullshit?  What do you think that equal and opposite means?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #829 on: December 09, 2015, 10:54:07 PM »
Oh, look; European schoolchildren know there is no such thing as a 'reaction engine'...

Shame you lot are still to dumb to figure it out.



And 'rab downunder'; you can troll as many youtubes & spam as many NASA-approved equations as you like, but when you say this:

So FORGET about a vacuum

...you are now trolling us.

I will NOT 'forget the vacuum'; because this debate is all about the vacuum, & how gases behave within it.

& all the Laws of Physics say that a gas can do no Work in a vacuum.

Work = Pressure x change in Volume; when Pressure=Zero, Work=Zero.

Simple.

Now; Carry On Lying!



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Mainframes

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #830 on: December 09, 2015, 11:45:17 PM »
Papa - you just said that a gas uses energy to expand. If it is using energy it is not freely expanding....
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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #831 on: December 09, 2015, 11:57:19 PM »
But as it meets Zero resistance on the way, it loses Zero energy & does Zero work.

*Yawn!*
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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #832 on: December 10, 2015, 12:01:02 AM »
Oh, look; seems the readers of Popular Mechanics in the 1940s also knew there was no such thing as a 'reaction engine' (lol!):



You guys are well behind the times, as well as every schoolchild in Europe, aintcha?
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luckyfred

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #833 on: December 10, 2015, 01:07:50 AM »
Basically u're saying that articles used to describe jet propulsion to School children and uneducated public are more accurate and true than books used by engineers who actually build jet engines?

Therefore are u putting yourself among the uneducated public? That would explain a lot of things

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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #834 on: December 10, 2015, 01:31:01 AM »
So the European Union & Popular mechanics were both Lying?

The fact is that if you do your research you can find plenty of dissenting voices regarding NASA's pseudo-science.

For example, a blog from one of the most respected Physics educators in America recommending high-school teachers not use NASA sources to teach Newton's 3rd as they 'misidentify the force-pairing'.

Or well-respected physicists plainly stating that NASA's 'thrust equation' using F=m*v is 'erroneous' & cannot be applied in the manner intended.

It's all out there, should you wish to find it...

Because all intelligent people know NASA are full of shit; that's why the E.U. quietly teaches its children correct physics; the bright ones will get it, whilst the ignorant ones will not.

And the ignorant ones will go on to become part of the dumb herd that eats up all the tales of fake 'shpayze-travvul', whilst the bright ones will get on with real science...

Not hard to understand.
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luckyfred

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #835 on: December 10, 2015, 02:14:30 AM »
Quote
So the European Union & Popular mechanics were both Lying?
do u think that articles used to teach physics to schoolchildren are 100% correct or are semplified to let even children understand?

Quote
Or well-respected physicists plainly stating that NASA's 'thrust equation' using F=m*v is 'erroneous' & cannot be applied in the manner intended.
like for example? btw m*v is not a force, mass flow*v is a force. mass and mass flow are two different things

 all aerospace engineers are taught that equation which in a slightly different form represent also the thrust of a jet engine.... how come they're able to design airplane if what they're taught is so fundamentally wrong?

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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #836 on: December 10, 2015, 02:27:59 AM »
Quote
So the European Union & Popular mechanics were both Lying?
do u think that articles used to teach physics to schoolchildren are 100% correct or are semplified to let even children understand?

They're either Lying or they're Not.

Which one is it?

Also, could you please correct your atrocious grammar & spelling? It is distracting & makes you look thoroughly uneducated.

I will not ask again; you will be ignored if you persist in this evasive shabbiness.
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luckyfred

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #837 on: December 10, 2015, 03:02:37 AM »
they're too simplified and do not represent reality. but that's because school children don't know almost anything of physics and mathematics.

this is the true principle on which rocket engine works.
http://blogs.esa.int/rocketscience/2012/10/14/a-man-and-an-equation/

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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #838 on: December 10, 2015, 03:16:40 AM »
So luckyfred claims the E.U. were lying when they produced this:



As were Popular Mechanics with this:



I prefer to believe that it is in fact luckyfred who is lying.

Because he has plenty of previous in that department...

But forget that; I asked him to improve both his spelling & his grammar if he wished to be taken seriously.

Yet he could only comply with the former request, capitalisation seeming to be beyond him.

Thus he will return to being ignored, unless he writes something especially outrageous or lulzy...

Toodle-pip, luckyfred; enjoy barking into the void from your doghouse!
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tomfi

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #839 on: December 10, 2015, 03:27:46 AM »
Papa ... its interesting that if 2 people read the same text, they understand 2 different things...
But your picture that you provided about principle of jet engine lead to wrong conclusions.

I don't know the credibility of those sources and BTW EU projects are not good example of "well used money", because usually materials create people that are interested in "earning the money" and not interested in the field that project is about (usually people that understand the topic and people working on the topic for "EU project", are 2 different groups :( ).

 but lets look on jet engine from physical point


Air that goes THRU engine (actually sucked from front of engine) is pushed behind the engine and that push produces force in oposit direction. 

The article you provide is not well written and it tries to say that when you take an air from front of engine and put that air behind that engine, you will have lower pressure in front of engine and high pressure behind that engine (you take air from front and added it to air behind engine)... that difference of pressures will have some pushing effect on objects between that low pressure location and high pressure location (sucking effect from front and pushing effect from behind) ... for low velocity that force may be somehow important, but it is too ineffective, because the sucking and pushing efect is in all direction, not just in direction you wanna to use (this force is applied not just against engine but in all directions from "locations").  "pressure push" is there, thats true, but I think is not significant, and more importantly is too uneffective way to move an airplane (actually if you use this principle in enclosed environment with huge pressure difference, like in a gun barrel + bullet,  this difference in pressure have huge "pushing effect", but this is not the case for open environment).
So push against atmosphere behind engine is not significant effective way that will enable you to fly.



What is important for jet engine is that you speedup huge amount of air in closed system (inside engine) and then trow that air behind engine (and according to 3th Newton law of motion, it will "produce" the same amount of force in opposite direction).

Speaking about rocket engine in the space, the situation is little different.
Bit negative effect in the atmosphere:
   3th Newton law motion applied in the atmosphere will tell you, that air that is in front of your airplane take airplanes movement energy (because airplane is hitting steady air molecules and impart move energy to them (actually another part of movement energy is transformed to heat that is produced by this "impact").... that's reason why airplane must be aerodynamic, to minimize imparted energy).... so in atmosphere your jet engines must produce enough energy to "speedup the plane" and more importantly to equilibrate the lost movement energy that airplane imparted to air around that airplane.

    This effect is not in vacuum -> you need engine just to speedup the craft or to stop it... not to "continue moving".  Engine don't need so much medium to work with (medium = air/gas/whatever you decide to throw from closed system to outside).


Negative effect in the space
   In atmosphere you had something that you were able to take from outside, speedup it in closed system and throw behind the airplane (you had air)... in vacuum you must have all "throw-able things" already in the closed system (there is nothing around you to take and throw. Space ships must throw just things they already have. To work effectively, you must have
A) huge mass of throw-able things (this is not good, because you need energy to transport that throw-able things from Earth into space).
B) throw things very fast... One way to do so is to take some liquid, heat it so it expands (you produce pressure) and throw it from closed system as fast as is manageable in opposite direction needed force to be applied :).


========================
The article states: backward push produced the equivalent in forward thrust.

Information about "pushing the atmosphere" is nice, but irrelevant to jet engine principle...  (and I agree that it may be misleading, that it somehow have something to do with jet engine principle.)

The article doesn't tell anything like "atmosphere push engine forward".

=================

The EU project... well you already know my opinion about EU projects (I worked as an scientist on university I saw many results of "EU projects" from different countries... but if ask them "how you dare to present this as an result of project" they respond with "well we did best we can,we produced XXX pages of materials, we buy XXX pencils aso... so required and monitored parameters were fulfilled.". If you continue to ask about quality of that materials, they will tell you "Quality of that materials is not part of monitoring, its a matter of "responsible person""). So yes... EU project result is much less trustful even compared to wikipedia where people at least may change a mistake in text.

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PS: sorry for my English... I hope that is it understandable.
Please give me working sunset calculation that works with FE model !