People on skateboards.

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #690 on: December 04, 2015, 10:20:36 PM »
Just why didn't we have someone of Sceptimatic's brilliance teamed with Papa Legba's stubbornness come into the world in time to save these folk from such foolishness?  And, of course, all the rocket engineers for thinking their rockets might work.
Just as well the rockets themselves are so ignorant of Sceptimatic's theories that they just carry on working.
What an idiotic post. Is it supposed to be clever?
Quite, just as idiotic as the OP from Papa Legba and the "hypotheses" that Sceptimatic sprouts!
Really, how are we to take Papa Legba's OP that states:
"Here is a thread for satanic sci-fi cultists to post photos/videos of people on skateboards that they think somehow prove that rockets will function in a vacuum. .... Whatever; knock yourselves out, psychos!"
Stating outright that any who disagrees is a "satanic sci-fi cultist" and a "psycho".

Yes I call it idiotic to expect a rational argument after that!

To win an argument with a genius is hard.
To win an argument with an idiot is impossible.
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance or stupidity.

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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #691 on: December 05, 2015, 12:08:23 PM »
To win an argument with an idiot is impossible.

Quite; which is why I just take the piss out of you fuckwits now.

How's things in Victorian England btw?

Is the Crimean war still on?

Who cares, you useless fraud?

You keep pretending you're not one of JroweCesspit's puppeteers while we all read this:

Momentum, conservation of.

The end. 

Turn off the lights and lock the thread.

Funny that; because I know of no 'engineer' who does not understand that if no motion can be produced, then all talk of momentum is irrelevant.

Nor do I know of any 'engineer' who is unaware that back-pressure is impossible to sustain in an infinite vacuum.

But then again, all the 'engineers' I know are people who make Engines.

Mathematical smatterers like computer programmers do not count.

Here is your idea of 'engineering': 11000110100111011010110110100110100001001101010...

No need for Newton, Joules, Thomson, nor anything but fantasy bullshit in your line of work...

But hey; if REAL engineering & physics offends you, just 'lock the thread & turn off the lights', eh?

Cos that wouldn't be either censorship or trolling or just plain ignorance, would it... 'Engy Baby'?

Hey, 'Engy'; WHERE ARE YOU?

WE THOUGHT YOU WERE A MOD?

COME ON & MODERATE US, LIAR!


Yeah; still waiting for that 'cool calm logical moderation', Mr. 'Engineer' who somehow does not understand even Newton 1...
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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markjo

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #692 on: December 05, 2015, 12:36:34 PM »
Funny that; because I know of no 'engineer' who does not understand that if no motion can be produced, then all talk of momentum is irrelevant.
I know of no engineer who thinks that rockets can't work in a vacuum

Nor do I know of any 'engineer' who is unaware that back-pressure is impossible to sustain in an infinite vacuum.
How many 'engineers' do you actually know?

But then again, all the 'engineers' I know are people who make Engines.
Do any of those 'engineers' make rocket engines or jet engines?

Mathematical smatterers like computer programmers do not count.
???  Are you saying that engineers don't use maths or computers?  Do you even know what engineering is?

I'm beginning to think that this is Papa Legba's idea of an 'engineer':
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #693 on: December 05, 2015, 12:50:03 PM »
I know of no engineer who thinks that rockets can't work in a vacuum

Funny that, cos every single genuine engineer I've talked to on the subject has said 'Yeah; good point' before just getting on with their lives...

Because - unlikely as it may seem to you psychopathic shpayze-tards - NOBODY CARES ABOUT THE SHAPE OF THE EARTH OR WHAT HAPPENS IN SPACE.


NO-ONE CARES, OKAY?

IT'S ALL BULLSHIT...
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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sokarul

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #694 on: December 05, 2015, 12:53:27 PM »
No they didn't.
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

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markjo

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #695 on: December 05, 2015, 01:06:28 PM »
I know of no engineer who thinks that rockets can't work in a vacuum

Funny that, cos every single genuine engineer I've talked to on the subject has said 'Yeah; good point' before just getting on with their lives...
I'd like to meet some of these "genuine engineers" that you're talking to.

Because - unlikely as it may seem to you psychopathic shpayze-tards - NOBODY CARES ABOUT THE SHAPE OF THE EARTH OR WHAT HAPPENS IN SPACE.
Aerospace engineers care.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #696 on: December 05, 2015, 01:15:22 PM »
Aerospace engineers care.

INCORRECT.
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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inquisitive

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Mainframes

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #698 on: December 05, 2015, 01:43:55 PM »
What's with the Victorian England comment?
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance or stupidity.

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rabinoz

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #699 on: December 06, 2015, 08:00:25 PM »
Funny that; because I know of no 'engineer' who does not understand that if no motion can be produced, then all talk of momentum is irrelevant.
Nor do I know of any 'engineer' who is unaware that back-pressure is impossible to sustain in an infinite vacuum.

Funny that!  The massive amount of burnt fuel goes right, the rocket goes left - plenty of motion can and is produced.
"back-pressure is impossible to sustain in an infinite vacuum"  Sure!
But, whatever the ambient pressure, that burnt fuel right at the exhaust plane of the nozzle is NOT A VACUUM!  It will rapidly expand into the vacuum, but NOT in ZERO time!  That is what the rocket is "pushing on"!  it is interesting that the static thrust equation fro a rocket always has a term for the ambient pressure as in:
As well as the
mass flow rate term "(mass flow rate) x (exhaust velocity)" term there is the
pressure difference term (exhaust pressure - ambient pressure) x (area of exhaust nozzle).

This might be from from NASA, but the result is well accepted and can be found in many places!  So if we keep getting more thrust as the ambient pressure falls, at what point does it "magically" turn into a "vacuum" and suddenly go Ga Ga - no NOT Lady Gaga!
At sea level the atmospheric pressure is 1 atm.  Does a rocket continue to work till:
 at 10,000 m about 0.240 atm,
 at 20,000 m about 0.057 atm,
 at 50,000 m about 0.00079 atm,
    at 100 km about 6.25e-7 atm,
    at 200 km about 3.90e-13 atm and
    at 500 km about 9.53e-32 atm.
remember, the thrust keeps INCREASING as the ambient pressure falls, so, where is the magic point where the rocket engine "suddenly" fails to work?  BTW the Saturn F-1 engine has a thrust of about 680,000 kg and an exit nozzle area of about 9.8 m^2 - so a thrust of about 69,500 kg/m^2.  And we we are told that that is from PUSHING ON TH AIR - you have very strong air over there! LOL

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TheEngineer

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #700 on: December 06, 2015, 10:15:32 PM »
Funny that; because I know of no 'engineer' who does not understand that if no motion can be produced, then all talk of momentum is irrelevant.
No motion is produced?  Hmm, that's a new one.

Quote
Nor do I know of any 'engineer' who is unaware that back-pressure is impossible to sustain in an infinite vacuum.
I'm sure you don't know many 'engineers'.

Quote
But then again, all the 'engineers' I know are people who make Engines.
Well, most of the engineers that I know, don't make engines.  Some design them, but not many make them.

Quote
Mathematical smatterers like computer programmers do not count.

Here is your idea of 'engineering': 11000110100111011010110110100110100001001101010...
No, my idea of engineering is graduating magna cum laude with a Bachelor of Science degree in mechanical engineering.  Then getting a job as a rocket scientist.  Well, technically, as a missile scientist.

Quote
But hey; if REAL engineering & physics offends you, just 'lock the thread & turn off the lights', eh?
Yep.  If I had had my mod powers restored at the time I would have locked the thread.  But, alas, we are 36 pages deep into this now.

Quote
Cos that wouldn't be either censorship or trolling or just plain ignorance, would it... 'Engy Baby'?
No, no and no.

Quote
Hey, 'Engy'; WHERE ARE YOU?
I solved the problem on the first page.  I figured you idiots would like to argue again for another 200 pages.

Quote
Yeah; still waiting for that 'cool calm logical moderation', Mr. 'Engineer'
My moderation is far from cool or calm.  I prefer to be dictatorial and arrogant.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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Master_Evar

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #701 on: December 07, 2015, 12:11:22 AM »
Hopefully this time my explanation gets through...

Imagine we had an electric piston in space, with infinite energy from solar power. Now, do you agree that if we extend the piston, the base and the piston rod will both move in opposite directions?
Explain about this electric piston and base? what do you mean by base?
It is simple. We have a box or something housing the piston rod, this housing is what I call the base. The piston rod is, well, the rod being pushed out of the housing. It is electrically driven, as it will make my explanation easier later on. Is it clear enough?
Is the piston attached to the box?...explain it all because you're not making sense.

I'll help you out.
There is a box. Now tell me about your electrically driven piston inside this box and how the piston works in that box.
*sigh* I don't know why it's this hard to understand:
http://pasteboard.co/2Cyeg83S.png
(The picture doesn't want to work using (img)http://pasteboard.co/2Cyeg83S.png(/img)(I replaced the ] with ) here.)

Running away, sceptimatic?
You're not explaining what's supposed to be happening and how it proves space rocket movement.
*sigh*...

I have not gotten there yet, idiot. Now, are able to imagine that we have a piston like the one I on the picture that is in space?
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

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sceptimatic

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #702 on: December 07, 2015, 01:03:06 AM »
Hopefully this time my explanation gets through...

Imagine we had an electric piston in space, with infinite energy from solar power. Now, do you agree that if we extend the piston, the base and the piston rod will both move in opposite directions?
Explain about this electric piston and base? what do you mean by base?
It is simple. We have a box or something housing the piston rod, this housing is what I call the base. The piston rod is, well, the rod being pushed out of the housing. It is electrically driven, as it will make my explanation easier later on. Is it clear enough?
Is the piston attached to the box?...explain it all because you're not making sense.

I'll help you out.
There is a box. Now tell me about your electrically driven piston inside this box and how the piston works in that box.
*sigh* I don't know why it's this hard to understand:
http://pasteboard.co/2Cyeg83S.png
(The picture doesn't want to work using (img)http://pasteboard.co/2Cyeg83S.png(/img)(I replaced the ] with ) here.)

Running away, sceptimatic?
You're not explaining what's supposed to be happening and how it proves space rocket movement.
*sigh*...

I have not gotten there yet, idiot. Now, are able to imagine that we have a piston like the one I on the picture that is in space?
Make some sense because you're losing me.

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Master_Evar

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #703 on: December 07, 2015, 01:10:45 AM »
Hopefully this time my explanation gets through...

Imagine we had an electric piston in space, with infinite energy from solar power. Now, do you agree that if we extend the piston, the base and the piston rod will both move in opposite directions?
Explain about this electric piston and base? what do you mean by base?
It is simple. We have a box or something housing the piston rod, this housing is what I call the base. The piston rod is, well, the rod being pushed out of the housing. It is electrically driven, as it will make my explanation easier later on. Is it clear enough?
Is the piston attached to the box?...explain it all because you're not making sense.

I'll help you out.
There is a box. Now tell me about your electrically driven piston inside this box and how the piston works in that box.
*sigh* I don't know why it's this hard to understand:
http://pasteboard.co/2Cyeg83S.png
(The picture doesn't want to work using (img)http://pasteboard.co/2Cyeg83S.png(/img)(I replaced the ] with ) here.)

Running away, sceptimatic?
You're not explaining what's supposed to be happening and how it proves space rocket movement.
*sigh*...

I have not gotten there yet, idiot. Now, are able to imagine that we have a piston like the one I on the picture that is in space?
Make some sense because you're losing me.
Okay, another question I have to ask first: are you able to use your imagination? If not, then I can't possibly explain this to you.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

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sceptimatic

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #704 on: December 07, 2015, 01:34:24 AM »
Hopefully this time my explanation gets through...

Imagine we had an electric piston in space, with infinite energy from solar power. Now, do you agree that if we extend the piston, the base and the piston rod will both move in opposite directions?
Explain about this electric piston and base? what do you mean by base?
It is simple. We have a box or something housing the piston rod, this housing is what I call the base. The piston rod is, well, the rod being pushed out of the housing. It is electrically driven, as it will make my explanation easier later on. Is it clear enough?
Is the piston attached to the box?...explain it all because you're not making sense.

I'll help you out.
There is a box. Now tell me about your electrically driven piston inside this box and how the piston works in that box.
*sigh* I don't know why it's this hard to understand:
http://pasteboard.co/2Cyeg83S.png
(The picture doesn't want to work using (img)http://pasteboard.co/2Cyeg83S.png(/img)(I replaced the ] with ) here.)

Running away, sceptimatic?
You're not explaining what's supposed to be happening and how it proves space rocket movement.
*sigh*...

I have not gotten there yet, idiot. Now, are able to imagine that we have a piston like the one I on the picture that is in space?
Make some sense because you're losing me.
Okay, another question I have to ask first: are you able to use your imagination? If not, then I can't possibly explain this to you.
Just get on with it,, or don't. Either way is fine by me.

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Master_Evar

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #705 on: December 07, 2015, 01:45:41 AM »
Just get on with it,, or don't. Either way is fine by me.
Imagine that there is a piston in space that function like I told you earlier. Now, if we extend this piston, both the piston base and the piston rod will move apart from each other, right?
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

*

ronxyz

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #706 on: December 07, 2015, 01:50:59 AM »
Well...
Ever seen FAIL videos where people get slammed in the face by the gun after firing a shot? That's caused by conservation of momentum.

The force that the explosion used on the bullet has an equal and opposite reaction force back towards the gun.

That's why the gum slams back.

The same CoM applies in vacuum where if you fire a bullet, you would physically be pushed back because you are not attached to anything, so the movement will actually be more significant in space.
Imagine the gas rocket as a huge gun firing trillions of gas particles into space, although each pushes the spaceship the opposite direction a tiny amount, together they make it move.

(And yes I know guns don't work in space cuz there's no oxygen and explosion and stuff, but I'm just using it as an example.)

EDIT:
Actually guns can work in space cuz they come with their own oxydiser, as it turns out ;)
http://www.livescience.com/18588-shoot-gun-space.html
[/quote
There is no recoil until the bullet leaves the barrel, thus proving papa post.

If the Earth is a ball why don't we fall off the bottom?

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sceptimatic

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #707 on: December 07, 2015, 01:54:23 AM »
Just get on with it,, or don't. Either way is fine by me.
Imagine that there is a piston in space that function like I told you earlier. Now, if we extend this piston, both the piston base and the piston rod will move apart from each other, right?
I don't  know what you mean by piston base.

Fully describe what you're saying so it becomes clear.

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Master_Evar

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #708 on: December 07, 2015, 02:08:15 AM »
Just get on with it,, or don't. Either way is fine by me.
Imagine that there is a piston in space that function like I told you earlier. Now, if we extend this piston, both the piston base and the piston rod will move apart from each other, right?
I don't  know what you mean by piston base.

Fully describe what you're saying so it becomes clear.

I posted a fucking picture. Look at it.
http://pasteboard.co/2Cyeg83S.png
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

*

sceptimatic

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #709 on: December 07, 2015, 02:52:28 AM »
Just get on with it,, or don't. Either way is fine by me.
Imagine that there is a piston in space that function like I told you earlier. Now, if we extend this piston, both the piston base and the piston rod will move apart from each other, right?
I don't  know what you mean by piston base.

Fully describe what you're saying so it becomes clear.

I posted a fucking picture. Look at it.
http://pasteboard.co/2Cyeg83S.png
Ok, so the electric motors push the piston and the housing apart from each other.
Ok fair enough, now what?

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rabinoz

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #710 on: December 07, 2015, 03:30:50 AM »
Well...
Ever seen FAIL videos where people get slammed in the face by the gun after firing a shot? That's caused by conservation of momentum.

The force that the explosion used on the bullet has an equal and opposite reaction force back towards the gun.

That's why the gum slams back.

The same CoM applies in vacuum where if you fire a bullet, you would physically be pushed back because you are not attached to anything, so the movement will actually be more significant in space.
Imagine the gas rocket as a huge gun firing trillions of gas particles into space, although each pushes the spaceship the opposite direction a tiny amount, together they make it move.

(And yes I know guns don't work in space cuz there's no oxygen and explosion and stuff, but I'm just using it as an example.)

EDIT:
Actually guns can work in space cuz they come with their own oxydiser, as it turns out ;)
http://www.livescience.com/18588-shoot-gun-space.html
[/quote
There is no recoil until the bullet leaves the barrel, thus proving papa post.
FAIL!
Well, NO!  The recoil starts as soon as the bullet starts accelerating!  Leaving the barrel has no particular significance.  What that does to poor Papa is really not my problem.

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Master_Evar

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #711 on: December 07, 2015, 03:48:41 AM »
Just get on with it,, or don't. Either way is fine by me.
Imagine that there is a piston in space that function like I told you earlier. Now, if we extend this piston, both the piston base and the piston rod will move apart from each other, right?
I don't  know what you mean by piston base.

Fully describe what you're saying so it becomes clear.

I posted a fucking picture. Look at it.
http://pasteboard.co/2Cyeg83S.png
Ok, so the electric motors push the piston and the housing apart from each other.
Ok fair enough, now what?
Now, imagine that on this housing we had an automated piece of machinery that, after the piston has extended, could weld an extra piece to the piston so it could extend further. This would also push the housing further, although as it is more massive it won't be pushed as much. Doesn't sound impossible, right? Then, imagine that we also had a piece of machinery that could melt down material from a reserve and mold it into new pieces, that could be welded onto the piston. So we can extend the piston really far now, but the housing is pretty heavy when it is fully loaded so it won't get pushed far. But, as it get's emptied and the piston gets more massive, it will start being pushed more, right?
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

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sircool

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #712 on: December 07, 2015, 11:26:23 AM »
Our old friend Inertia will end this debate :D
If it's flat, that would be very interesting for science

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sceptimatic

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #713 on: December 07, 2015, 12:38:46 PM »
Just get on with it,, or don't. Either way is fine by me.
Imagine that there is a piston in space that function like I told you earlier. Now, if we extend this piston, both the piston base and the piston rod will move apart from each other, right?
I don't  know what you mean by piston base.

Fully describe what you're saying so it becomes clear.

I posted a fucking picture. Look at it.
http://pasteboard.co/2Cyeg83S.png
Ok, so the electric motors push the piston and the housing apart from each other.
Ok fair enough, now what?
Now, imagine that on this housing we had an automated piece of machinery that, after the piston has extended, could weld an extra piece to the piston so it could extend further. This would also push the housing further, although as it is more massive it won't be pushed as much. Doesn't sound impossible, right? Then, imagine that we also had a piece of machinery that could melt down material from a reserve and mold it into new pieces, that could be welded onto the piston. So we can extend the piston really far now, but the housing is pretty heavy when it is fully loaded so it won't get pushed far. But, as it get's emptied and the piston gets more massive, it will start being pushed more, right?
I honestly have no clue what you're  getting at. I've already explained what would happen so welding bits on to whatever isn't going to change anything.

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Master_Evar

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #714 on: December 07, 2015, 11:25:44 PM »
Just get on with it,, or don't. Either way is fine by me.
Imagine that there is a piston in space that function like I told you earlier. Now, if we extend this piston, both the piston base and the piston rod will move apart from each other, right?
I don't  know what you mean by piston base.

Fully describe what you're saying so it becomes clear.

I posted a fucking picture. Look at it.
http://pasteboard.co/2Cyeg83S.png
Ok, so the electric motors push the piston and the housing apart from each other.
Ok fair enough, now what?
Now, imagine that on this housing we had an automated piece of machinery that, after the piston has extended, could weld an extra piece to the piston so it could extend further. This would also push the housing further, although as it is more massive it won't be pushed as much. Doesn't sound impossible, right? Then, imagine that we also had a piece of machinery that could melt down material from a reserve and mold it into new pieces, that could be welded onto the piston. So we can extend the piston really far now, but the housing is pretty heavy when it is fully loaded so it won't get pushed far. But, as it get's emptied and the piston gets more massive, it will start being pushed more, right?
I honestly have no clue what you're  getting at. I've already explained what would happen so welding bits on to whatever isn't going to change anything.
I am not done yet, so please stop evading. Do you agree with what I have written so far, and can you imagine it?
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

*

sceptimatic

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #715 on: December 08, 2015, 12:37:39 AM »
Just get on with it,, or don't. Either way is fine by me.
Imagine that there is a piston in space that function like I told you earlier. Now, if we extend this piston, both the piston base and the piston rod will move apart from each other, right?
I don't  know what you mean by piston base.

Fully describe what you're saying so it becomes clear.

I posted a fucking picture. Look at it.
http://pasteboard.co/2Cyeg83S.png
Ok, so the electric motors push the piston and the housing apart from each other.
Ok fair enough, now what?
Now, imagine that on this housing we had an automated piece of machinery that, after the piston has extended, could weld an extra piece to the piston so it could extend further. This would also push the housing further, although as it is more massive it won't be pushed as much. Doesn't sound impossible, right? Then, imagine that we also had a piece of machinery that could melt down material from a reserve and mold it into new pieces, that could be welded onto the piston. So we can extend the piston really far now, but the housing is pretty heavy when it is fully loaded so it won't get pushed far. But, as it get's emptied and the piston gets more massive, it will start being pushed more, right?
I honestly have no clue what you're  getting at. I've already explained what would happen so welding bits on to whatever isn't going to change anything.
I am not done yet, so please stop evading. Do you agree with what I have written so far, and can you imagine it?
No I can't. It makes no real sense.
It's like me telling to imagine that I've pushed some spaghetti through a tube and then added another strand to the back of it, then another, etc. It makes no rational sense to do what you're saying.

You need to go for another analogy.

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Master_Evar

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #716 on: December 08, 2015, 02:02:44 AM »
Just get on with it,, or don't. Either way is fine by me.
Imagine that there is a piston in space that function like I told you earlier. Now, if we extend this piston, both the piston base and the piston rod will move apart from each other, right?
I don't  know what you mean by piston base.

Fully describe what you're saying so it becomes clear.

I posted a fucking picture. Look at it.
http://pasteboard.co/2Cyeg83S.png
Ok, so the electric motors push the piston and the housing apart from each other.
Ok fair enough, now what?
Now, imagine that on this housing we had an automated piece of machinery that, after the piston has extended, could weld an extra piece to the piston so it could extend further. This would also push the housing further, although as it is more massive it won't be pushed as much. Doesn't sound impossible, right? Then, imagine that we also had a piece of machinery that could melt down material from a reserve and mold it into new pieces, that could be welded onto the piston. So we can extend the piston really far now, but the housing is pretty heavy when it is fully loaded so it won't get pushed far. But, as it get's emptied and the piston gets more massive, it will start being pushed more, right?
I honestly have no clue what you're  getting at. I've already explained what would happen so welding bits on to whatever isn't going to change anything.
I am not done yet, so please stop evading. Do you agree with what I have written so far, and can you imagine it?
No I can't. It makes no real sense.
It's like me telling to imagine that I've pushed some spaghetti through a tube and then added another strand to the back of it, then another, etc. It makes no rational sense to do what you're saying.

You need to go for another analogy.
Yup, it's exactly like the spaghetti thing you brought up. Obviously you could imagine that spaghetti thing, so you definitely can imagine it. We have a machinery like the one I am describing. Now, does it work as I have told you? If not, explain why.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

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sceptimatic

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #717 on: December 08, 2015, 03:04:56 AM »
Just get on with it,, or don't. Either way is fine by me.
Imagine that there is a piston in space that function like I told you earlier. Now, if we extend this piston, both the piston base and the piston rod will move apart from each other, right?
I don't  know what you mean by piston base.

Fully describe what you're saying so it becomes clear.

I posted a fucking picture. Look at it.
http://pasteboard.co/2Cyeg83S.png
Ok, so the electric motors push the piston and the housing apart from each other.
Ok fair enough, now what?
Now, imagine that on this housing we had an automated piece of machinery that, after the piston has extended, could weld an extra piece to the piston so it could extend further. This would also push the housing further, although as it is more massive it won't be pushed as much. Doesn't sound impossible, right? Then, imagine that we also had a piece of machinery that could melt down material from a reserve and mold it into new pieces, that could be welded onto the piston. So we can extend the piston really far now, but the housing is pretty heavy when it is fully loaded so it won't get pushed far. But, as it get's emptied and the piston gets more massive, it will start being pushed more, right?
I honestly have no clue what you're  getting at. I've already explained what would happen so welding bits on to whatever isn't going to change anything.
I am not done yet, so please stop evading. Do you agree with what I have written so far, and can you imagine it?
No I can't. It makes no real sense.
It's like me telling to imagine that I've pushed some spaghetti through a tube and then added another strand to the back of it, then another, etc. It makes no rational sense to do what you're saying.

You need to go for another analogy.
Yup, it's exactly like the spaghetti thing you brought up. Obviously you could imagine that spaghetti thing, so you definitely can imagine it. We have a machinery like the one I am describing. Now, does it work as I have told you? If not, explain why.
Regardless of what you've said, you are  not moving anywhere except against each object.

You still do not have any leverage but you can't seem to see that.

Think about it really carefully and clearly.
Down on the ground, in atmosphere, every push has leverage and your body has useful mass to use in moving an object due to that mass having leverage with either, the ground by use of feet or by atmospheric pressure upon that body's mass, also creating a leverage.

Now think carefully about what I'm about to explain.

If you were to run at a sumo wrestler, you would be using the ground and your feet, plus body muscles aided by atmosphere to charge at that wrestler.
Once you hit that wrestler, you will maybe slightly move him but you will probably be absorbed by his bulk/mass and then catapulted back because his feet and mass that is clamped to the ground by atmospheric pressure upon his mass, is his leverage against your mass thrown at him.

If you were standing in front of each other and used your arms to push each other away, then you would be the one that was pushed away.

Now take that into your vacuum of space, or near vacuum as we are told.
In that space, assuming you could live happily floating, or how the silly scientists depict it, you have body mass each but it means nothing.
You are no different than the sumo in what you can do against him or he can do against you. Only the look is different.

So take a run at the sumo now and what happens?
The sensible thought is: you can run. You can't move , except to move your arms and feet; flapping them about with no movement in any direction gained.
Same goes for sumo man.

So what about if you were both face to face with bent elbows, palm to palm with each other.

Ok, you can now push off each other, right?
Wrong.

Remember, nobody's mass has any gain because there are no leverage points in your space for either person to create a resistant force against the other.

All you both have, are bent arms ready to push against each other, but as I've explained, your mass and his are meaningless in the nothingness of your space.

So you push against him and he pushes against you. What you see are both of your arms outstretching and that's your lot.
You end up fingertip to fingertip with no more movement because the only leverage you both has was counteracting both your bodies.

Now you can sit and argue that mass is relevant in your space and give out all kinds of magical reasons, but you common sense should really kick in and realise how silly it all is and how silly space actually is.

You should come to the conclusion that rockets to space are not feasible, so something else must be happening. Make your own mind up ... or, you stick to your space rockets and such. It means nothing to me because what I'm typing here is for the benefit of those who can actually think for themselves.

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #718 on: December 08, 2015, 03:18:36 AM »
Quote
So you push against him and he pushes against you. What you see are both of your arms outstretching and that's your lot.
You end up fingertip to fingertip with no more movement because the only leverage you both has was counteracting both your bodies.
Are you suggesting that if you and a sumo kicked away from each other as hard as you possibly could the both of you would instantly stop moving away from each other as you lost physical contact?

So if I shot a bullet in space, would the bullet go from 600m/s to 0m/s the instant it left the barrel?

This is neither intuitive or correct according to all of physics.
If you move fast enough, everything appears flat

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sceptimatic

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #719 on: December 08, 2015, 03:26:50 AM »
Quote
So you push against him and he pushes against you. What you see are both of your arms outstretching and that's your lot.
You end up fingertip to fingertip with no more movement because the only leverage you both has was counteracting both your bodies.
Are you suggesting that if you and a sumo kicked away from each other as hard as you possibly could the both of you would instantly stop moving away from each other as you lost physical contact?

So if I shot a bullet in space, would the bullet go from 600m/s to 0m/s the instant it left the barrel?

This is neither intuitive or correct according to all of physics.
You can't push hard or soft in your space. You have no leverage to do so. You go nowhere.

If you had your hands on a wall and pushed against that wall, you would push yourself backwards, because that wall creates a barrier for you. A immovable barrier.
If that wall was on wheels, it would create a barrier but a move-able one yet it would create a resistance to your push due to it's mass that is acted on it by atmospheric pressure.

Put that wall in space and do it and all you do is push yourself back by your own arms in exact unison with pushing the wall in the opposite direction.
The problem is, there's no effort gained either way.
You have no leverage to push the wall into space, nor has the wall any resistance to allow you to propel yourself backwards with your arm push.
It's a stale mate. You end up touching the wall with your finger tips and cannot do anything else.

As for your gun. It simply wouldn't work.