Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.

Quote from: jroa on October 13, 2015, 06:52:38 AM

Then why are you people even bringing up artillery in a thread about snipers?  You people seem like you are dodging and evading because you can't come up with proof of your Round Earth Theory.  It is sad, sometimes.

Just because you can't account for everything, doesn't mean you don't account for anything.  As stated earlier, the Coriolis effect would affect the location of impact by nearly a mile.  If I can account for it, I will.

Quote from: TexasH on October 13, 2015, 06:58:20 AM

Quote from: jroa on October 13, 2015, 06:52:38 AM

Then why are you people even bringing up artillery in a thread about snipers?  You people seem like you are dodging and evading because you can't come up with proof of your Round Earth Theory.  It is sad, sometimes.

Just because you can't account for everything, doesn't mean you don't account for anything.  As stated earlier, the Coriolis effect would affect the location of impact by nearly a mile.  If I can account for it, I will.

For all you know, the calculation is what made the round be so far off, and the forward observer/spotter is cancelling this by giving corrections.  I do not see how this is proof about anything.

Quote from: jroa on October 13, 2015, 07:04:54 AM

Quote from: TexasH on October 13, 2015, 06:58:20 AM

Quote from: jroa on October 13, 2015, 06:52:38 AM

Then why are you people even bringing up artillery in a thread about snipers?  You people seem like you are dodging and evading because you can't come up with proof of your Round Earth Theory.  It is sad, sometimes.

Just because you can't account for everything, doesn't mean you don't account for anything.  As stated earlier, the Coriolis effect would affect the location of impact by nearly a mile.  If I can account for it, I will.

For all you know, the calculation is what made the round be so far off, and the forward observer/spotter is cancelling this by giving corrections.  I do not see how this is proof about anything.

I am not seeing where it was stated on how far the target was missed and in what direction.  Did the initial impacts after the adjustment miss their targets by nearly a mile in the direction the adjustment was made?

Quote from: TexasH on October 13, 2015, 07:19:30 AM

Quote from: jroa on October 13, 2015, 07:04:54 AM

Quote from: TexasH on October 13, 2015, 06:58:20 AM

Quote from: jroa on October 13, 2015, 06:52:38 AM

Then why are you people even bringing up artillery in a thread about snipers?  You people seem like you are dodging and evading because you can't come up with proof of your Round Earth Theory.  It is sad, sometimes.

Just because you can't account for everything, doesn't mean you don't account for anything.  As stated earlier, the Coriolis effect would affect the location of impact by nearly a mile.  If I can account for it, I will.

For all you know, the calculation is what made the round be so far off, and the forward observer/spotter is cancelling this by giving corrections.  I do not see how this is proof about anything.

I am not seeing where it was stated on how far the target was missed and in what direction.  Did the initial impacts after the adjustment miss their targets by nearly a mile in the direction the adjustment was made?

I used to be a forward observer in the Marine Corps, and I can assure you that sometimes Artillery would be a kilometer or more off target, even when they have exact coordinates.  Once again, I ask how this information is in any way relevant to the shape of the Earth?

Quote from: jroa on October 13, 2015, 07:30:36 AM

Quote from: TexasH on October 13, 2015, 07:19:30 AM

Quote from: jroa on October 13, 2015, 07:04:54 AM

Quote from: TexasH on October 13, 2015, 06:58:20 AM

Quote from: jroa on October 13, 2015, 06:52:38 AM

Then why are you people even bringing up artillery in a thread about snipers?  You people seem like you are dodging and evading because you can't come up with proof of your Round Earth Theory.  It is sad, sometimes.

Just because you can't account for everything, doesn't mean you don't account for anything.  As stated earlier, the Coriolis effect would affect the location of impact by nearly a mile.  If I can account for it, I will.

For all you know, the calculation is what made the round be so far off, and the forward observer/spotter is cancelling this by giving corrections.  I do not see how this is proof about anything.

I am not seeing where it was stated on how far the target was missed and in what direction.  Did the initial impacts after the adjustment miss their targets by nearly a mile in the direction the adjustment was made?

I used to be a forward observer in the Marine Corps, and I can assure you that sometimes Artillery would be a kilometer or more off target, even when they have exact coordinates.  Once again, I ask how this information is in any way relevant to the shape of the Earth?

I am aware of the inaccuracies of artillery.  I even stated this earlier.  I don't see the point of restating what we have both agreed on.  There are many factors that affect the trajectory, wind speed and direction, air density, etc...  If we don't need to take Coriolis Effect into account as you suppose, why has it been adjusted for for 70+ years?  At some point, the guys that are making the calculations are going to notice that the rounds are landing in a location that is off by the amount they adjusted for and realize the adjustment isn't necessary.

Quote from: TexasH on October 13, 2015, 08:12:21 AM

Quote from: jroa on October 13, 2015, 07:30:36 AM

Quote from: TexasH on October 13, 2015, 07:19:30 AM

Quote from: jroa on October 13, 2015, 07:04:54 AM

Quote from: TexasH on October 13, 2015, 06:58:20 AM

Quote from: jroa on October 13, 2015, 06:52:38 AM

Then why are you people even bringing up artillery in a thread about snipers?  You people seem like you are dodging and evading because you can't come up with proof of your Round Earth Theory.  It is sad, sometimes.

Just because you can't account for everything, doesn't mean you don't account for anything.  As stated earlier, the Coriolis effect would affect the location of impact by nearly a mile.  If I can account for it, I will.

For all you know, the calculation is what made the round be so far off, and the forward observer/spotter is cancelling this by giving corrections.  I do not see how this is proof about anything.

I am not seeing where it was stated on how far the target was missed and in what direction.  Did the initial impacts after the adjustment miss their targets by nearly a mile in the direction the adjustment was made?

I used to be a forward observer in the Marine Corps, and I can assure you that sometimes Artillery would be a kilometer or more off target, even when they have exact coordinates.  Once again, I ask how this information is in any way relevant to the shape of the Earth?

I am aware of the inaccuracies of artillery.  I even stated this earlier.  I don't see the point of restating what we have both agreed on.  There are many factors that affect the trajectory, wind speed and direction, air density, etc...  If we don't need to take Coriolis Effect into account as you suppose, why has it been adjusted for for 70+ years?  At some point, the guys that are making the calculations are going to notice that the rounds are landing in a location that is off by the amount they adjusted for and realize the adjustment isn't necessary.

70+ years and they still can't hit the target on the first shot.  And this proves the Earth is round how?

Well, I guess this is the wrong thread to talk about this with you people since you have already admitted that they are not very accurate.

I see that now that I have defeated your people, you change the subject.  Typical roundie.

Coriolis and Einstein's theory of relativity contradict each other. Einstein proposed relative motion to account for why the Michelson-Morely experiment failed. This was a major experiment conducted to prove earths rotation. Einstein stated that no optical experiment can be conducted to detect earths movement. So everything you guys are saying contradicts relativity. The Linear Aircraft Model as defined by NASA operates under the "flat, non-rotating earth assumption" because of relative motion, so they claim. An explantion needs to be provided as to why those experiments to detect earths movement failed, yet there is somehow coriolis? It makes no sense.

Yendor, an insect riding on a bullet wouldn't be able to see the rotation if the Earth.  If you were in a car going 50 miles per hour and you shoot a gun facing backwards then the bullet will be traveling 50 miles per hour slower then normal relative to the ground, and if you shoot it forwards then it will be going 50 miles per hour faster then normal relative to the ground.  Relative to the car though the bullet's speed is normal in both instances  Simelarly, shooting a gun east and west are the same as far as the bullet's speed goes.  It will hit a target to the east with the same speed as a target to the west.

Great point here with the bullet being fired from the car and it's relative speeds going forward and backwards. So, the earth is the car and the plane is the bullet. If the earth is rotating at 1,000mph(just a general number) and a plane is shot out (takes off) in the earth's forward direction(west to east) at 500mph(just a general number), how do pilots land on North/South runways. Based on the car?bullet example above, the plane is moving 1000mph faster than its normal relative speed to the earth(1000 + 500 = 1500mph). In order to match the runway speed of the earth moving at 1000mph from west to east, wouldn't the pilot have to reduce speed to near zero(0)? Based on the same example, if you shot the plane towards the back of the earths directional movement, wouldn't it it travel at -500mph, since the speed would be 1000mph slower than its normal relative speed?

They might need to factor in wind speed and distance. Bullets shoot in a straight line so there is no curvature to factor unless you are confusing fiction with reality as seen in the movie Wanted.

The point is that snipers are not the magically accurate super computing shooters that the OP makes them out to be.  Otherwise, they would not need to make adjustments for followup shots.

Quote from: Swiftly Tilting Planet on September 21, 2015, 01:22:51 PM

So are Flat Earthers saying that military snipers and gun manufactures are in on the "conspiracy" too?

" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

If you watch the video you referenced above, starting at 0:44 second, The guy say that when the bullet leaves the barrel of the gun it is actually leaving the surface of the Earth. He goes on to say when the bullet leaves the barrel, the Earth is still rotating and the bullet is not rotating with the Earth. The Earth will actually rotate out from underneath the bullet as it is in flight.

How can this be true? The bullet has to rotate with the Earth because the atmosphere rotates with the Earth and it will carry the bullet along with it. At least that's what I've been told. If you can believe that a bullet doesn't have to rotate with the Earth, then why does an airplane have to rotate with the Earth and a bullet doesn't. Seriously, what is the difference? Following this logic, a plane should be able to take off and head north and the pilot should be able to watch the Earth rotate under him. Could you please explain this to me?

Quote from: mikeman7918 on October 06, 2015, 07:34:11 AM

Quote from: Yendor on October 05, 2015, 04:46:31 PM

If you watch the video you referenced above, starting at 0:44 second, The guy say that when the bullet leaves the barrel of the gun it is actually leaving the surface of the Earth. He goes on to say when the bullet leaves the barrel, the Earth is still rotating and the bullet is not rotating with the Earth. The Earth will actually rotate out from underneath the bullet as it is in flight.

How can this be true? The bullet has to rotate with the Earth because the atmosphere rotates with the Earth and it will carry the bullet along with it. At least that's what I've been told. If you can believe that a bullet doesn't have to rotate with the Earth, then why does an airplane have to rotate with the Earth and a bullet doesn't. Seriously, what is the difference? Following this logic, a plane should be able to take off and head north and the pilot should be able to watch the Earth rotate under him. Could you please explain this to me?

The guy in the video didn't really explain it very well and you are right in assuming that the bullet moves with the atmosphere and stays in motion just as it did before it left the barrel, the Coriolis effect is apparent strange motion of an object from a rotating frame of reference.  If you and a friend sit on a spinning platform and you try to throw a ball to him then common experience states that you should throw the ball towards him but because the platform is spinning from your frame of reference the ball will appear to swerve in it's trajectory and your friend wouldn't catch the ball.  If you want him to catch it then you have to aim to the side of your friend and the ball will swerve and he will catch it.  The same thimg happens on Earth, but it's not as extreme because Earth has a rotation period of 24 hours which means that the effect rarely pronounces it's self, but it's noticeable for things like bullets and hurricanes that move rather fast relative to Earth's surface.

"The guy on the video didn't really explain it very well"...have you looked on the internet, it is full of the same kind of BS exactly the way he describes it. The Coriolis effect is not real or we could see the Earth moving under an airplane. The Earth is not rotating at all, it is stationary. The coriolis effect is an imaginary fairy tale science has invented to try and fool us again. Don't buy into this nonsense.

Quote from: 29silhouette on October 07, 2015, 08:29:53 PM

Quote from: Yendor on October 05, 2015, 04:46:31 PM

If you can believe that a bullet doesn't have to rotate with the Earth, then why does an airplane have to rotate with the Earth and a bullet doesn't. Seriously, what is the difference?

If you understood the differences between a bullet and an airplane, then it would all be much less confusing for you.

Tell me funny guy, what is it about substituting a plane for the bullet that confuses you? In this discussion, they both can fly over the Earth at certain altitudes. They both can fly straight north, they both can fly at certain speeds and the both can hit a target straight away. If the fairyfly can see the Earth rotate under him while he rides on the bullet, why can't a pilot see the Earth rotate while he flies the plane? I'll await your answer.

So are Flat Earthers saying that military snipers and gun manufactures are in on the "conspiracy" too?

" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

So are Flat Earthers saying that military snipers and gun manufactures are in on the "conspiracy" too?

" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

Quote from: Swiftly Tilting Planet on September 21, 2015, 01:22:51 PM

So are Flat Earthers saying that military snipers and gun manufactures are in on the "conspiracy" too?

" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

Yeah, the Coriolis effect didn't affect the snipers the week before, but they come back a week later and all of the sudden the Coriolis effect bothers them? If the Coriolis is so huge, you'd think it would be an automatic adjustment. That it would be taken into account without question, without thought. by snipers. But this guy says it is always forgotten by snipers. This is nothing but a propaganda film.

The "Paris Gun"
With all the scientific calculations and engineering problems engendered by this project, the research of Coriolis was reviewed by Professor von Eberhardt, and an additional adjustment made. Having been advised that the projected firing site was in the forest of Crépy-en-Laonnois, near Laon, and the target Paris, he calculated the distance between the two as 67.6 miles. The firing vector was close enough to a north-south axis, bringing the Coriolis Effect into play. Coriolis and von Eberhardt knew that Laon and Paris were traveling at different speeds. Although each rotated once in 24 hours, Laon was farther from the equator than Paris and thus moving somewhat slower in miles per hour. A point on the equator travels at 1041.66 mph.

Eberhardt estimated a rotational speed of 567.126 mph at Paris on the 49th parallel, and 555.55 mph at Laon on the 48th parallel. An adjustment of 11.576 mph, or .003215 miles per second, had to be provided for in the laying of the gun.

The final calculations were assembled. To achieve the required muzzle velocity, a chamber pressure of 59,000 pounds per square inch had to be reached. Flight time was predicted at 176 seconds. This called for an easterly correction of 0.5659 miles or roughly 995.984 yards to compensate for the differing rotational speeds of gun and target. On March 23, 1918 everything was ready to go.

From Military History, World War I Weapons: Germany’s Big Guns

Quote from: Swiftly Tilting Planet on September 21, 2015, 01:22:51 PM

So are Flat Earthers saying that military snipers and gun manufactures are in on the "conspiracy" too?

" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

Yeah, the Coriolis effect didn't affect the snipers the week before, but they come back a week later and all of the sudden the Coriolis effect bothers them? If the Coriolis is so huge, you'd think it would be an automatic adjustment. That it would be taken into account without question, without thought. by snipers. But this guy says it is always forgotten by snipers. This is nothing but a propaganda film.

Quote from: physical observer on February 21, 2017, 12:08:48 AM

Quote from: Swiftly Tilting Planet on September 21, 2015, 01:22:51 PM

So are Flat Earthers saying that military snipers and gun manufactures are in on the "conspiracy" too?

" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

Yeah, the Coriolis effect didn't affect the snipers the week before, but they come back a week later and all of the sudden the Coriolis effect bothers them? If the Coriolis is so huge, you'd think it would be an automatic adjustment. That it would be taken into account without question, without thought. by snipers. But this guy says it is always forgotten by snipers. This is nothing but a propaganda film.

Yes, the Coriolis effect has only a very slight effect at 1000 yds, but make that over 67 miles and it's a different story. The Germans in the First World seemed to think it was important enough to consider in long range artillery calculations.

Quote

The "Paris Gun"
With all the scientific calculations and engineering problems engendered by this project, the research of Coriolis was reviewed by Professor von Eberhardt, and an additional adjustment made. Having been advised that the projected firing site was in the forest of Crépy-en-Laonnois, near Laon, and the target Paris, he calculated the distance between the two as 67.6 miles. The firing vector was close enough to a north-south axis, bringing the Coriolis Effect into play. Coriolis and von Eberhardt knew that Laon and Paris were traveling at different speeds. Although each rotated once in 24 hours, Laon was farther from the equator than Paris and thus moving somewhat slower in miles per hour. A point on the equator travels at 1041.66 mph.

Eberhardt estimated a rotational speed of 567.126 mph at Paris on the 49th parallel, and 555.55 mph at Laon on the 48th parallel. An adjustment of 11.576 mph, or .003215 miles per second, had to be provided for in the laying of the gun.

The final calculations were assembled. To achieve the required muzzle velocity, a chamber pressure of 59,000 pounds per square inch had to be reached. Flight time was predicted at 176 seconds. This called for an easterly correction of 0.5659 miles or roughly 995.984 yards to compensate for the differing rotational speeds of gun and target. On March 23, 1918 everything was ready to go.

From Military History, World War I Weapons: Germany’s Big Guns

Still, I don't suppose you'll take any notice!

Quote from: rabinoz on February 21, 2017, 03:30:59 AM

Quote from: physical observer on February 21, 2017, 12:08:48 AM

Quote from: Swiftly Tilting Planet on September 21, 2015, 01:22:51 PM

So are Flat Earthers saying that military snipers and gun manufactures are in on the "conspiracy" too?

" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

Yeah, the Coriolis effect didn't affect the snipers the week before, but they come back a week later and all of the sudden the Coriolis effect bothers them? If the Coriolis is so huge, you'd think it would be an automatic adjustment. That it would be taken into account without question, without thought. by snipers. But this guy says it is always forgotten by snipers. This is nothing but a propaganda film.

Yes, the Coriolis effect has only a very slight effect at 1000 yds, but make that over 67 miles and it's a different story. The Germans in the First World seemed to think it was important enough to consider in long range artillery calculations.

Quote

The "Paris Gun"
With all the scientific calculations and engineering problems engendered by this project, the research of Coriolis was reviewed by Professor von Eberhardt, and an additional adjustment made. Having been advised that the projected firing site was in the forest of Crépy-en-Laonnois, near Laon, and the target Paris, he calculated the distance between the two as 67.6 miles. The firing vector was close enough to a north-south axis, bringing the Coriolis Effect into play. Coriolis and von Eberhardt knew that Laon and Paris were traveling at different speeds. Although each rotated once in 24 hours, Laon was farther from the equator than Paris and thus moving somewhat slower in miles per hour. A point on the equator travels at 1041.66 mph.

Eberhardt estimated a rotational speed of 567.126 mph at Paris on the 49th parallel, and 555.55 mph at Laon on the 48th parallel. An adjustment of 11.576 mph, or .003215 miles per second, had to be provided for in the laying of the gun.

The final calculations were assembled. To achieve the required muzzle velocity, a chamber pressure of 59,000 pounds per square inch had to be reached. Flight time was predicted at 176 seconds. This called for an easterly correction of 0.5659 miles or roughly 995.984 yards to compensate for the differing rotational speeds of gun and target. On March 23, 1918 everything was ready to go.

From Military History, World War I Weapons: Germany’s Big Guns

Still, I don't suppose you'll take any notice!

The article: "The firing vector was close enough to a north-south axis, bringing the Coriolis Effect into play."

It has been proven with scientific observations, the Coriolis effect does not exist.

Water flows in both directions north and south of the equator. It all depends on which side of the sink you pour the water, and how you face the water outlets in a toilet.

 I have done the experiment in my own kitchen sink!

Your article is just propaganda BS to save the dying spherical earth claims. I have taken shooting lessons from several Marine sniper friends, and they NEVER have mentioned the Coriolis effect when setting up for a kill.

It has been proven with scientific observations, the Coriolis effect does not exist. Water flows in both directions north and south of the equator. It all depends on which side of the sink you pour the water, and how you face the water outlets in a toilet. I have done the experiment in my own kitchen sink!

Quote from: physical observer on February 22, 2017, 05:04:51 AM

It has been proven with scientific observations, the Coriolis effect does not exist. Water flows in both directions north and south of the equator. It all depends on which side of the sink you pour the water, and how you face the water outlets in a toilet. I have done the experiment in my own kitchen sink!

This nonsense again?  We all know the sink/toilet/bathtub "swirling water" demo of Coriolis Effect is bunk!  You've proven NOTHING.  These guys, on the other hand, set up a more controlled experiment, you should check it out.