Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.

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Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« on: September 21, 2015, 01:22:51 PM »

So are Flat Earthers saying that military snipers and gun manufactures are in on the "conspiracy" too?

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Serulian

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2015, 02:22:38 PM »
They might need to factor in wind speed and distance. Bullets shoot in a straight line so there is no curvature to factor unless you are confusing fiction with reality as seen in the movie Wanted.

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mikeman7918

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2015, 03:20:52 PM »
They might need to factor in wind speed and distance. Bullets shoot in a straight line so there is no curvature to factor unless you are confusing fiction with reality as seen in the movie Wanted.

It's not curvature that they are accounting for, it's the Coriolis effect which proves that Earth rotates.
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Serulian

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2015, 04:50:27 PM »
I already said they might need to factor in the wind. How does wind direction prove round Earth theory? In any case, if a sniper has to make adjustments for clockwise and counter clockwise wind that would disrupt his shot, he might not be the best person for the task. He should move closer or send a drone or something.

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Constellator

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2015, 05:12:04 PM »
The wind and the Coriolis effect are separate factors; the sniper has to account for both in conjunction. And whether or not these skills are actually useful in combat is irrelevant. What matters is whether or not the Coriolis effect can change the apparent trajectory of a bullet.

Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2015, 05:16:09 PM »
I already said they might need to factor in the wind. How does wind direction prove round Earth theory? In any case, if a sniper has to make adjustments for clockwise and counter clockwise wind that would disrupt his shot, he might not be the best person for the task. He should move closer or send a drone or something.

Except snipers and long-range sharpshooters ALL have to do this. So are you saying that they are all bad?

And if we fired from a drone or robot long distance, *they* would have to be programmed to take this effect into account as well, or they would miss.

And it's not that they are just taking the wind into account (they do that too) because the wind can blow from any direction, but the coriolis effect is different for different latitudes, and it's always in a specific direction for the Northern hemisphere, and in the opposite specific direction for the Southern hemisphere.

This is what I mean by denial of facts and reality. Long-range sharpshooters ALL do this. They admit to doing this, they talk about it, they teach others about it. So either the Earth spins, or they are ALL in on this huge conspiracy.

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Serulian

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2015, 06:19:06 PM »
If I where to picture a leprechaun standing in front of my target when I pulled the trigger and doing so improved my accuracy, would that prove the existence of leprechauns to you? What if I trained others to do the same and they all had similar results?

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mikeman7918

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2015, 09:11:55 PM »
If I where to picture a leprechaun standing in front of my target when I pulled the trigger and doing so improved my accuracy, would that prove the existence of leprechauns to you? What if I trained others to do the same and they all had similar results?

If I picture a dog in front of my target then my accuracy doesn't improve.  Does this disprove the existence of dogs?

If a scenario like the one you speak if were real then it could be hypothesized that psychology has to do with it and it might be something placebo related.

In the case of sniping if you don't account for the Coriolis effect then the bullet misses it's target by a consistant amount which perfectly matches predictions of what it should be assuming a round Earth.
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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2015, 09:37:34 PM »
If I where to picture a leprechaun standing in front of my target when I pulled the trigger and doing so improved my accuracy, would that prove the existence of leprechauns to you? What if I trained others to do the same and they all had similar results?

See, stuff like this. It's not so much that you all lack critical thinking skills...it's just that...you're all doing it wrong.

This isn't about some magic blue feather that makes sharp-shooters and snipers better marksmen, this is a verifiable fact that we know works AND we understand HOW and WHY it works.

It's yet another piece of evidence, that, taken with many, many other verifiable facts, combined with observations (we've seen a round Earth from space, we can see the other planets are round through any telescope, we can see the shadow of the Moon curve, etc, etc...) all add up to one conclusion - the Earth is a ball. It spins. We live on it.

(BTW, I was in JROTC in high school in Germany in the mid-80's (dad was stationed at Augsburg). I won a Marksman medal in Summer Camp, so I'm a bit familiar with this stuff, though not an expert...but my instructor taught us about this effect...unless, HE was in one the conspiracy as well...)

But, just for arguments sake - if there was verifiable proof that putting a Leprechaun in front of a target ALWAYS improved marksmanship. And the same people - all around the world - short worse without it, it wouldn't be proof that Leprechauns existed, but it would be proof that there was a statistically verifiable and repeatable effect at work there. Even if it was just that marking your target with a visible green sign improved aim.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2015, 07:57:34 PM »
Do you know why snipers have spotters?  Because no matter how many calculations they do, they still need someone to look through a spotter scope to tell them how far off their shot was.  Think about it. 

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mikeman7918

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2015, 10:16:26 PM »
Do you know why snipers have spotters?  Because no matter how many calculations they do, they still need someone to look through a spotter scope to tell them how far off their shot was.  Think about it.

And the spotters all seem to agree that accounting for the Coriolis effect increases acuracy.
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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2015, 11:57:36 PM »
Do you know why snipers have spotters?  Because no matter how many calculations they do, they still need someone to look through a spotter scope to tell them how far off their shot was.  Think about it.

Spotters help adjust for effects that are difficult to calculate like wind over a long distance shot or to improve issues with sight alignment. It still doesn't negate the fact that Coriolanus effect must be accounted for.
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Son of Orospu

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2015, 02:42:58 AM »
The point is that snipers are not the magically accurate super computing shooters that the OP makes them out to be.  Otherwise, they would not need to make adjustments for followup shots. 

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Master_Evar

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2015, 02:53:21 AM »
The point is that snipers are not the magically accurate super computing shooters that the OP makes them out to be.  Otherwise, they would not need to make adjustments for followup shots.

And how does that in any way contribute to the point that snipers take the Coriolis effect into account when sniping?

And no, nowhere does the OP imply that snipers are super accurate in any way.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

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guv

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2015, 05:05:51 AM »
Forward observer for the drop shorts must have more balls than brains, both sides are sending crap your way. The Paris gun had no forward observer and it still hit Paris.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2015, 02:19:07 PM »
The point is that snipers are not the magically accurate super computing shooters that the OP makes them out to be.  Otherwise, they would not need to make adjustments for followup shots.

And how does that in any way contribute to the point that snipers take the Coriolis effect into account when sniping?

And no, nowhere does the OP imply that snipers are super accurate in any way.

If they make many calculations and adjustments to their optics and still miss, then how does this prove the Coriolis effect?   Can you prove they would miss more often if they did not calculate for the Coriolis effect? 

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Yendor

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2015, 04:46:31 PM »

So are Flat Earthers saying that military snipers and gun manufactures are in on the "conspiracy" too?

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If you watch the video you referenced above, starting at 0:44 second, The guy say that when the bullet leaves the barrel of the gun it is actually leaving the surface of the Earth. He goes on to say when the bullet leaves the barrel, the Earth is still rotating and the bullet is not rotating with the Earth. The Earth will actually rotate out from underneath the bullet as it is in flight.

How can this be true? The bullet has to rotate with the Earth because the atmosphere rotates with the Earth and it will carry the bullet along with it. At least that's what I've been told. If you can believe that a bullet doesn't have to rotate with the Earth, then why does an airplane have to rotate with the Earth and a bullet doesn't. Seriously, what is the difference? Following this logic, a plane should be able to take off and head north and the pilot should be able to watch the Earth rotate under him. Could you please explain this to me?
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Master_Evar

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2015, 12:11:01 AM »
The point is that snipers are not the magically accurate super computing shooters that the OP makes them out to be.  Otherwise, they would not need to make adjustments for followup shots.

And how does that in any way contribute to the point that snipers take the Coriolis effect into account when sniping?

And no, nowhere does the OP imply that snipers are super accurate in any way.

If they make many calculations and adjustments to their optics and still miss, then how does this prove the Coriolis effect?   Can you prove they would miss more often if they did not calculate for the Coriolis effect?

They take the coriolis effect into account? If it was not a real thing they'd literally miss deliberately without knowing it every time they took a shot, unless they were not accurate so the bullet veered off the wanted trajectory and actually hit the target  because of that. (This is for snipers at great distances where the coriolis effect may change the trajectory a few inches to the side)

It makes no sense to take the coriolis effect into account if it made the sniper miss more shots.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

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mikeman7918

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2015, 07:34:11 AM »
If you watch the video you referenced above, starting at 0:44 second, The guy say that when the bullet leaves the barrel of the gun it is actually leaving the surface of the Earth. He goes on to say when the bullet leaves the barrel, the Earth is still rotating and the bullet is not rotating with the Earth. The Earth will actually rotate out from underneath the bullet as it is in flight.

How can this be true? The bullet has to rotate with the Earth because the atmosphere rotates with the Earth and it will carry the bullet along with it. At least that's what I've been told. If you can believe that a bullet doesn't have to rotate with the Earth, then why does an airplane have to rotate with the Earth and a bullet doesn't. Seriously, what is the difference? Following this logic, a plane should be able to take off and head north and the pilot should be able to watch the Earth rotate under him. Could you please explain this to me?

The guy in the video didn't really explain it very well and you are right in assuming that the bullet moves with the atmosphere and stays in motion just as it did before it left the barrel, the Coriolis effect is apparent strange motion of an object from a rotating frame of reference.  If you and a friend sit on a spinning platform and you try to throw a ball to him then common experience states that you should throw the ball towards him but because the platform is spinning from your frame of reference the ball will appear to swerve in it's trajectory and your friend wouldn't catch the ball.  If you want him to catch it then you have to aim to the side of your friend and the ball will swerve and he will catch it.  The same thimg happens on Earth, but it's not as extreme because Earth has a rotation period of 24 hours which means that the effect rarely pronounces it's self, but it's noticeable for things like bullets and hurricanes that move rather fast relative to Earth's surface.
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Yendor

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2015, 11:30:33 AM »
If you watch the video you referenced above, starting at 0:44 second, The guy say that when the bullet leaves the barrel of the gun it is actually leaving the surface of the Earth. He goes on to say when the bullet leaves the barrel, the Earth is still rotating and the bullet is not rotating with the Earth. The Earth will actually rotate out from underneath the bullet as it is in flight.

How can this be true? The bullet has to rotate with the Earth because the atmosphere rotates with the Earth and it will carry the bullet along with it. At least that's what I've been told. If you can believe that a bullet doesn't have to rotate with the Earth, then why does an airplane have to rotate with the Earth and a bullet doesn't. Seriously, what is the difference? Following this logic, a plane should be able to take off and head north and the pilot should be able to watch the Earth rotate under him. Could you please explain this to me?

The guy in the video didn't really explain it very well and you are right in assuming that the bullet moves with the atmosphere and stays in motion just as it did before it left the barrel, the Coriolis effect is apparent strange motion of an object from a rotating frame of reference.  If you and a friend sit on a spinning platform and you try to throw a ball to him then common experience states that you should throw the ball towards him but because the platform is spinning from your frame of reference the ball will appear to swerve in it's trajectory and your friend wouldn't catch the ball.  If you want him to catch it then you have to aim to the side of your friend and the ball will swerve and he will catch it.  The same thimg happens on Earth, but it's not as extreme because Earth has a rotation period of 24 hours which means that the effect rarely pronounces it's self, but it's noticeable for things like bullets and hurricanes that move rather fast relative to Earth's surface.

"The guy on the video didn't really explain it very well"...have you looked on the internet, it is full of the same kind of BS exactly the way he describes it. The Coriolis effect is not real or we could see the Earth moving under an airplane. The Earth is not rotating at all, it is stationary. The coriolis effect is an imaginary fairy tale science has invented to try and fool us again. Don't buy into this nonsense.
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
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mikeman7918

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2015, 12:04:02 PM »
"The guy on the video didn't really explain it very well"...have you looked on the internet, it is full of the same kind of BS exactly the way he describes it. The Coriolis effect is not real or we could see the Earth moving under an airplane. The Earth is not rotating at all, it is stationary. The coriolis effect is an imaginary fairy tale science has invented to try and fool us again. Don't buy into this nonsense.

Imaginary things do not alter the trajectories of bullets and change the way weather systems work.
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Jadyyn

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2015, 12:24:06 PM »
Coriolis Effect - easy to explain:
  • If the flight time of a bullet is say 10 sec (whatever)
  • If you are shooting directly at a target due north of you (N velocity component of bullet)
  • If you or that target is not moving sideways
  • Result - you hit the target exactly in 10 sec
  • If the flight time of a bullet is say 10 sec (whatever)
  • If you are shooting directly at a target due north of you (N velocity component of bullet)
  • If you or that target is moving sideways (there is an E-W velocity component to the bullet)
  • Result - you miss the target
  • You must LEAD the target to hit it - i.e. you must shoot where it WILL BE in 10 sec, not where it is now
On a sphere or disk, all the above are still true - the physics is the same.

The E-W velocity component is due to the spin.

On a stationary sphere or disk, you will hit the target. On a spinning sphere or disk, you will miss unless you lead.
“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” W.C. Fields.
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Yendor

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2015, 01:14:39 PM »
Coriolis Effect - easy to explain:
  • If the flight time of a bullet is say 10 sec (whatever)
  • If you are shooting directly at a target due north of you (N velocity component of bullet)
  • If you or that target is not moving sideways
  • Result - you hit the target exactly in 10 sec
  • If the flight time of a bullet is say 10 sec (whatever)
  • If you are shooting directly at a target due north of you (N velocity component of bullet)
  • If you or that target is moving sideways (there is an E-W velocity component to the bullet)
  • Result - you miss the target
  • You must LEAD the target to hit it - i.e. you must shoot where it WILL BE in 10 sec, not where it is now
On a sphere or disk, all the above are still true - the physics is the same.

The E-W velocity component is due to the spin.

On a stationary sphere or disk, you will hit the target. On a spinning sphere or disk, you will miss unless you lead.

What is your point? Do you want me to pick one? I pick the flat Earth does not spin so there is no Coriolis effect.
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
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Master_Evar

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2015, 01:27:35 AM »
  • If the flight time of a bullet is say 10 sec (whatever)
  • If you are shooting directly at a target due north of you (N velocity component of bullet)
  • If you or that target is moving sideways (there is an E-W velocity component to the bullet)
  • Result - you miss the target
  • You must LEAD the target to hit it - i.e. you must shoot where it WILL BE in 10 sec, not where it is now

Only true if both are moving at different speeds relative to each other.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2015, 02:25:51 AM »
Coriolis Effect - easy to explain:
On a stationary sphere or disk, you will hit the target. On a spinning sphere or disk, you will miss unless you lead.

Something moves through the air on a sideways rotating round earth and of course its movement IS absolute (as we would see the earth pass under it) and this flying object would in NO way inherit the rotating movement (and any movement would be relative to that) ... that is impossible ...

Something moves through the air on a upwards accelerating flat earth (the explanation for "gravity" according to the flat earth wiki) and of course its movement is NOT absolute (as we would than see it sink towards the ground) and this flying object in EVERY way inherits the upward movement (and any movement is relative to that) ... that is obvious ...

Flat Earth logic ... *sighs*

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Jadyyn

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2015, 04:54:59 AM »
a) My point is - I am trying to explain the Coriolis Effect in a manner that even a 5th grader can understand.

b) You CAN'T pick just one because both apply to the Earth and use the laws of physics.
  • When trying to hit something moving sideways, you do have to LEAD it to hit it on the Flat Earth don't you?
  • You do have rotating things on the Flat Earth don't you?
  • Lead + Rotation = Coriolis Effect
c) I understand relative motion. I was just trying to keep it simple. The different relative motion was implied.
“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” W.C. Fields.
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Master_Evar

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2015, 05:07:35 AM »
a) My point is - I am trying to explain the Coriolis Effect in a manner that even a 5th grader can understand.

b) You CAN'T pick just one because both apply to the Earth and use the laws of physics.
  • When trying to hit something moving sideways, you do have to LEAD it to hit it on the Flat Earth don't you?
  • You do have rotating things on the Flat Earth don't you?
  • Lead + Rotation = Coriolis Effect
c) I understand relative motion. I was just trying to keep it simple. The different relative motion was implied.

My bad, rushed to reply and didn't read properly.

The best way even a fifth-grader or younger would understand is to tell them to throw a ball to someone  else when you are both on a merry-go-round.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2015, 08:29:53 PM »
If you can believe that a bullet doesn't have to rotate with the Earth, then why does an airplane have to rotate with the Earth and a bullet doesn't. Seriously, what is the difference?
If you understood the differences between a bullet and an airplane, then it would all be much less confusing for you.

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Yendor

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2015, 09:36:45 AM »
If you can believe that a bullet doesn't have to rotate with the Earth, then why does an airplane have to rotate with the Earth and a bullet doesn't. Seriously, what is the difference?
If you understood the differences between a bullet and an airplane, then it would all be much less confusing for you.

Tell me funny guy, what is it about substituting a plane for the bullet that confuses you? In this discussion, they both can fly over the Earth at certain altitudes. They both can fly straight north, they both can fly at certain speeds and the both can hit a target straight away. If the fairyfly can see the Earth rotate under him while he rides on the bullet, why can't a pilot see the Earth rotate while he flies the plane? I'll await your answer.
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mikeman7918

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Re: Long Range Snipers & the Coriolis Effect.
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2015, 10:51:24 AM »
Yendor, an insect riding on a bullet wouldn't be able to see the rotation if the Earth.  If you were in a car going 50 miles per hour and you shoot a gun facing backwards then the bullet will be traveling 50 miles per hour slower then normal relative to the ground, and if you shoot it forwards then it will be going 50 miles per hour faster then normal relative to the ground.  Relative to the car though the bullet's speed is normal in both instances  Simelarly, shooting a gun east and west are the same as far as the bullet's speed goes.  It will hit a target to the east with the same speed as a target to the west.

You clearly don't understand the Coriolis effect, the effect is caused because the bullet travels on (more or less) a strait line, while you and the Earth are rotating slowly.  This causes the bullet to spear to curve up or down a tiny bit.  It isn't really curving, it just appears to be because you and the Earth are rotating.  If you want I could give you some videos that explain this concept really well.  I know that bullets don't really travel in a strait line, they drop due to gravity and are effected by the air.  The Coriolis effect does still noticeably effect the bullet so it needs to be accounted for even though it's not the only factor to account for.

Bullets and airplanes differ in two key ways in this case.

Firstly, airplanes don't generally account for the Coriolis effect because they do not need their trajectory to be precise as that of a bullet, planes have a large margin of error in their flight path while bullets need to be within an inch or so if their intended path.

Secondly, airplanes are controlled by a pilot, while a bullet cannot control it's self in flight.  When shooting a bullet you have to come up with it's trajectory and account for all forces acting on it before you fire because after you fire there is nothing you can do to change the bullet's trajectory.  Airplanes on the other hand can correct for whatever causes them to deviate from their flight path.  If an airplane starts slowly pitching down then the pilot simply pulls up and sets trim to compensate, it doesn't matter if this pitch is caused by the Coriolis effect, the shifting of weight on the plane, turbulence, or a mythical creature messing with the aerodynamics.  The plane can adapt to it's situation while a bullet can not.
I am having a video war with Jeranism.
See the thread about it here.