Designing a Flat Earth Map

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Designing a Flat Earth Map
« on: September 02, 2015, 11:23:21 AM »
Hello.

For those who haven't read my introduction, I'm Claire. I seek to develop a Flat Earth model and show that this is indeed a feasible theory. Whether or not I'm successful remains to be seen, but one important first step will be a working map.

(Once the map is done, it will be possible to draw things like the Coriolis Force and star movements etc, to see if there is a visible pattern).

Of course, it may turn out that this is an impossible aim. Round Earth projections are certainly inaccurate. For that reason, I am starting from scratch. To do this, I will be using air flight times, and a compass (of the geometrical variety). From this, I can sketch out possible relationships between multiple cities: and from that, position landmasses in a way that works on a flat surface.

To do this, I will need your help. My internet is unfortunately very slow, and I am attending a university, which uses up much of my time.
All I need from you is links. I want to start with New York, as it has multiple airports, and it's as good an origin as any.

At minimum, please suggest certain cities I could fly to. At most, what I will do with those cities is look up the flight times to and from New York with respect to them: both is necessary. if they are particularly different, the value is useless: jet streams would be to blame. If the time taken is similar, however, we can assume distance is the prime variable. If you have the time, if you could provide this information as well, I would be very grateful.

This may not be practical. I hope it will be, however.
Here for the scientific development of a Flat Earth model. Happy to be proven wrong, as I hope you are too.

Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2015, 12:09:04 PM »
I'm guessing your're not a cartographer?
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mikeman7918

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Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2015, 12:43:58 PM »
Good luck with your map.
I am having a video war with Jeranism.
See the thread about it here.

Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2015, 01:25:49 PM »
I'm guessing your're not a cartographer?
No, but we don't need a detailed map. This is just to determine the approximate relationships between the landmasses, and if it is possible for them to exist on a regular plane. It doesn't need to be completely accurate.
Here for the scientific development of a Flat Earth model. Happy to be proven wrong, as I hope you are too.

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sircool

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Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2015, 01:41:37 PM »
I wish you the best, and I would very much like to see it!
If it's flat, that would be very interesting for science

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LuggerSailor

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Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2015, 02:06:10 PM »
Good luck. Please bear in mind that a map (chart) is a navigation tool. If the distances on the chart are not accurate enough, there could be ships running aground or running out of fuel before they reach their destinations.
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Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2015, 02:08:32 PM »
Good luck. Please bear in mind that a map (chart) is a navigation tool. If the distances on the chart are not accurate enough, there could be ships running aground or running out of fuel before they reach their destinations.
This map isn't yet meant to navigate by. It's simply intended as a scientific aid.
Here for the scientific development of a Flat Earth model. Happy to be proven wrong, as I hope you are too.

Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2015, 02:11:44 PM »
Here are some suggestions to minimize errors:

Make sure you are using nonstop flight times. This is distinct from direct flights, which have intermediate stop(s) but keep the same flight designation. Direct flights are useless here because of the time spent taking off and landing, and on the ground.

Take the average of the outbound and return flight times to and from the same city. That should reduce error due to systematic winds.

You might want to start with NYC as a hub to test feasibility, but for completeness, you will want several so you can make a mesh. Flights among NY, LAX, SCL (Santiago, Chile), and SYD, might be interesting to compare. Maybe add some European, Asian, and South African nodes later.

Best of luck to you!
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2015, 02:16:02 PM »
You might want to start with NYC as a hub to test feasibility, but for completeness, you will want several so you can make a mesh. Flights among NY, LAX, SCL (Santiago, Chile), and SYD, might be interesting to compare. Maybe add some European, Asian, and South African nodes later.
Thank you.That was the plan, but, for example, European nodes are useless unless I have a concept of where Europe is with respect to NY.
The real problem will be direction. As far as I can see, the best case scenario is to form a base line: define two locations by their relationship, and work from there. Direction could be tricky, but existing knowledge should work well enough.

Thank you for the list of things to watch for.
Here for the scientific development of a Flat Earth model. Happy to be proven wrong, as I hope you are too.

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Master_Evar

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Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2015, 02:20:22 PM »
I'm pretty sure someone made a thread in the debate section where they used distances between cities and made triangles from them. The triangles when put together would form a bowl-shape, something that would not happen on a flat earth. You will find the same thing happening when making this map probably; you'll be missing some distances which requires a 3:d dimension to fill in, which will create multiple bowl-shapes.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2015, 02:26:55 PM »
I'm pretty sure someone made a thread in the debate section where they used distances between cities and made triangles from them. The triangles when put together would form a bowl-shape, something that would not happen on a flat earth. You will find the same thing happening when making this map probably; you'll be missing some distances which requires a 3:d dimension to fill in, which will create multiple bowl-shapes.

Perhaps, we'll see. Often long-distance measurements like that are calculated by using a RE model: it's far easier than walking it out. A bowl shape might be found if the measurements used are calculated by assuming one.
That's why I seek to use flight times. The map will no doubt be twisted compared to the ones you're used to, which could alter the 'bowl' greatly.
Here for the scientific development of a Flat Earth model. Happy to be proven wrong, as I hope you are too.

?

Master_Evar

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Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2015, 02:36:59 PM »
I'm pretty sure someone made a thread in the debate section where they used distances between cities and made triangles from them. The triangles when put together would form a bowl-shape, something that would not happen on a flat earth. You will find the same thing happening when making this map probably; you'll be missing some distances which requires a 3:d dimension to fill in, which will create multiple bowl-shapes.

Perhaps, we'll see. Often long-distance measurements like that are calculated by using a RE model: it's far easier than walking it out. A bowl shape might be found if the measurements used are calculated by assuming one.
That's why I seek to use flight times. The map will no doubt be twisted compared to the ones you're used to, which could alter the 'bowl' greatly.

No, distances are usually measured using instruments in vehicles that records the travel distance. That's how cities are initially placed on maps or models. Before the city is on a map you can't use the map to determine it's position. A lot of these distances where accurately known before gps, so it had to be measured without using models.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2015, 02:39:21 PM »
No, distances are usually measured using instruments in vehicles that records the travel distance. That's how cities are initially placed on maps or models. Before the city is on a map you can't use the map to determine it's position. A lot of these distances where accurately known before gps, so it had to be measured without using models.
It would depend on the source: and on which map is used. There are rarely straight lines from city to city.
We'll see what happens.
Here for the scientific development of a Flat Earth model. Happy to be proven wrong, as I hope you are too.

Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2015, 03:05:49 PM »
I'm pretty sure someone made a thread in the debate section where they used distances between cities and made triangles from them. The triangles when put together would form a bowl-shape, something that would not happen on a flat earth. You will find the same thing happening when making this map probably; you'll be missing some distances which requires a 3:d dimension to fill in, which will create multiple bowl-shapes.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=64289.0#.Vedx3cT3aK0
Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. ― George Carlin

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Master_Evar

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Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2015, 03:08:54 PM »
I'm pretty sure someone made a thread in the debate section where they used distances between cities and made triangles from them. The triangles when put together would form a bowl-shape, something that would not happen on a flat earth. You will find the same thing happening when making this map probably; you'll be missing some distances which requires a 3:d dimension to fill in, which will create multiple bowl-shapes.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=64289.0#.Vedx3cT3aK0

That's the one, thanks! And, the distances are based on flight routes, which is the same method as FEScientist will be using.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2015, 03:18:17 PM »
I'm pretty sure someone made a thread in the debate section where they used distances between cities and made triangles from them. The triangles when put together would form a bowl-shape, something that would not happen on a flat earth. You will find the same thing happening when making this map probably; you'll be missing some distances which requires a 3:d dimension to fill in, which will create multiple bowl-shapes.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=64289.0#.Vedx3cT3aK0

That's the one, thanks! And, the distances are based on flight routes, which is the same method as FEScientist will be using.

I remembered it because I think it's a brilliant demonstration of earth shape. It's the most basic and easy to understand and also very visual. And it works with almost any set of far enough cities with direct flights. No wonder all FEs stayed away, cause there's really no argument against that....
Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. ― George Carlin

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Serulian

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Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2015, 03:30:37 PM »
Best of luck to you Claire, I have also been working on a Flat Earth model for some time. I would love to compare when they are both finished.

I have taken the opposite approach and saved the map for last, choosing to first focus on night and day, the weather, what we perceive as gravity and so on.

Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2015, 03:50:59 PM »
I remembered it because I think it's a brilliant demonstration of earth shape. It's the most basic and easy to understand and also very visual. And it works with almost any set of far enough cities with direct flights. No wonder all FEs stayed away, cause there's really no argument against that....
That example doesn't seem to use flight times; it just uses automatically calculated distances. There is no information given on how those distances are calculated: and it's flight distances specifically so certain areas might be avoided.
I'm more concerned with times, when the flight takes a similar time both ways. We know how that's calculated, and it's verified by experience. If the flight takes the same time both ways, wind isn't a factor.
Here for the scientific development of a Flat Earth model. Happy to be proven wrong, as I hope you are too.

Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2015, 06:11:22 PM »
Hello.

For those who haven't read my introduction, I'm Claire. I seek to develop a Flat Earth model and show that this is indeed a feasible theory. Whether or not I'm successful remains to be seen, but one important first step will be a working map.

(Once the map is done, it will be possible to draw things like the Coriolis Force and star movements etc, to see if there is a visible pattern).

Of course, it may turn out that this is an impossible aim. Round Earth projections are certainly inaccurate. For that reason, I am starting from scratch. To do this, I will be using air flight times, and a compass (of the geometrical variety). From this, I can sketch out possible relationships between multiple cities: and from that, position landmasses in a way that works on a flat surface.

To do this, I will need your help. My internet is unfortunately very slow, and I am attending a university, which uses up much of my time.
All I need from you is links. I want to start with New York, as it has multiple airports, and it's as good an origin as any.

At minimum, please suggest certain cities I could fly to. At most, what I will do with those cities is look up the flight times to and from New York with respect to them: both is necessary. if they are particularly different, the value is useless: jet streams would be to blame. If the time taken is similar, however, we can assume distance is the prime variable. If you have the time, if you could provide this information as well, I would be very grateful.

This may not be practical. I hope it will be, however.

On behalf of round-earth mappers who encourage this undertaking: thank you!

A good resource for flight data is here: openflights.org
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XaeXae

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Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2015, 03:30:11 PM »
Good luck! However, lots of planes don't go to their destinations in a straight line, so you can't describe a linear relationship between flight time and distance.

Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2015, 07:34:03 AM »
Good luck! However, lots of planes don't go to their destinations in a straight line, so you can't describe a linear relationship between flight time and distance.
Thank you for the information.
Most planes do appear to take a curved route, but this is just convention. The RE map predicts a sphere, so a straight line on the sphere may end up curved when the sphere is flattened. In practise this is still a straight line.
The one grey area would be planes that try to specifically avoid certain locations, or try to fly into a jet stream. For this reason, I am looking at flights in both directions rather than just one, to minimize such interference. there may still be some flaws, but an approximate map should result. This was never going to be perfect.
Here for the scientific development of a Flat Earth model. Happy to be proven wrong, as I hope you are too.

Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2015, 09:50:49 AM »
The map project was a failure. Paris was to be placed at the intersection of two arcs with quite a difference between them.

I should make clear that this does not refute the FE model. I did make a few assumptions, and the error bars were always going to be great. It was only ever to be an approximation. There are a number of ways I could have gone wrong: and flight times were my only accessible method of verification, and were not a good one.
There's also the possibility of higher-dimensional shapes of the Earth being involved. I've seen it proposed that the world is 'tilted' in a higher dimension, which would make my strictly 2-D map meaningless.

Even so, this counts as a strike two for me. I'm working on a basis that if three major elements of my hypothesis are struck down, then that's it. No excuses, no alterations, I'll reject the FE model as requiring too many assumptions and conveniences.
Master Evar pointed out a flaw with my model of light: which I have now refined, but even so it was a major error, so counts as strike one.
Here for the scientific development of a Flat Earth model. Happy to be proven wrong, as I hope you are too.

Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2015, 05:05:11 PM »
Can you try the project with the data you already have using a globe instead of a flat map? Measure the distance between pairs of cities using a string, then compare the measured distances with the flight times.

You're on to something with your comment about the Earth being a higher-dimensional shape, but don't overthink it. You found that a flat plane (2D) doesn't work with the data you have. Next, try a sphere (3D) before worrying about anything more exotic.  Check it out. There will be some error, but if it's close, while not proof, it's more evidence that what almost everyone already knows is correct.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2015, 05:24:53 AM »
Can you try the project with the data you already have using a globe instead of a flat map? Measure the distance between pairs of cities using a string, then compare the measured distances with the flight times.

You're on to something with your comment about the Earth being a higher-dimensional shape, but don't overthink it. You found that a flat plane (2D) doesn't work with the data you have. Next, try a sphere (3D) before worrying about anything more exotic.  Check it out. There will be some error, but if it's close, while not proof, it's more evidence that what almost everyone already knows is correct.
Maybe. That would still be a terrible way to develop and so test an FE hypothesis.
Here for the scientific development of a Flat Earth model. Happy to be proven wrong, as I hope you are too.

?

Master_Evar

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Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2015, 07:54:17 AM »
Can you try the project with the data you already have using a globe instead of a flat map? Measure the distance between pairs of cities using a string, then compare the measured distances with the flight times.

You're on to something with your comment about the Earth being a higher-dimensional shape, but don't overthink it. You found that a flat plane (2D) doesn't work with the data you have. Next, try a sphere (3D) before worrying about anything more exotic.  Check it out. There will be some error, but if it's close, while not proof, it's more evidence that what almost everyone already knows is correct.
Maybe. That would still be a terrible way to develop and so test an FE hypothesis.
And this is what I mean with pseudoscience. Creating a model is done by fitting together observations and already known facts and connections. You assume from the beginning that the earth is flat, and despise of observations that proves otherwise. Sure, they are pointless if you wan't to make a flat earth model, but they are still observations, connections and facts. Despising them or blaming them on some unknown, undeveloped phenomenon is ignorant.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2015, 08:21:38 AM »
And this is what I mean with pseudoscience. Creating a model is done by fitting together observations and already known facts and connections. You assume from the beginning that the earth is flat, and despise of observations that proves otherwise. Sure, they are pointless if you wan't to make a flat earth model, but they are still observations, connections and facts. Despising them or blaming them on some unknown, undeveloped phenomenon is ignorant.
I am creating a hypothesis. In order to test a hypothesis, I must determine what it would predict, and what it would say would and would not be the case, and of course I should do so in line with current evidence.
I blame them on undeveloped phenomenon so that I may develop those phenomenon. When the model is complete, I will have a FE hypothesis. Then I may begin to test and verify or disprove.

This isn't pseudoscience. It may be an earlier stage of science than you are used to seeing, you tend to just view things at or past the peer review stage while this is the pre-hypothesis stage, but this is nonetheless science.
Here for the scientific development of a Flat Earth model. Happy to be proven wrong, as I hope you are too.

Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2015, 08:39:56 AM »
Can you try the project with the data you already have using a globe instead of a flat map? Measure the distance between pairs of cities using a string, then compare the measured distances with the flight times.

You're on to something with your comment about the Earth being a higher-dimensional shape, but don't overthink it. You found that a flat plane (2D) doesn't work with the data you have. Next, try a sphere (3D) before worrying about anything more exotic.  Check it out. There will be some error, but if it's close, while not proof, it's more evidence that what almost everyone already knows is correct.
Maybe. That would still be a terrible way to develop and so test an FE hypothesis.
Not it wouldn't.  You would be attempting to gather evidence against the null hypothesis: the earth is round.

Perhaps you should falsify round earth theory before working on alternative hypotheses?
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Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2015, 08:52:12 AM »
And this is what I mean with pseudoscience. Creating a model is done by fitting together observations and already known facts and connections. You assume from the beginning that the earth is flat, and despise of observations that proves otherwise. Sure, they are pointless if you wan't to make a flat earth model, but they are still observations, connections and facts. Despising them or blaming them on some unknown, undeveloped phenomenon is ignorant.
I am creating a hypothesis.
You've got one:  the earth is flat.  This is a falsifiable hypothesis.  The problem you face is that it's already falsified...

Quote
In order to test a hypothesis, I must determine what it would predict
It predicts the earth is flat.  Test that hypothesis.

Quote
I blame them on undeveloped phenomenon so that I may develop those phenomenon.
I'm not sure what this even means, which is probably because it's pure pseudoscience.  That is it uses sciencey sounding words, like "phenomenon", but has absolutely nothing to do with the scientific method.

Here's guidance on what a good hypothesis should be:

Quote
Hypotheses are proposed explanations for a fairly narrow set of phenomena. These reasoned explanations are not guesses of the wild or educated variety. When scientists formulate new hypotheses, they are usually based on prior experience, scientific background knowledge, preliminary observations, and logic. For example, scientists observed that alpine butterflies exhibit characteristics intermediate between two species that live at lower elevations. Based on these observations and their understanding of speciation, the scientists hypothesized that this species of alpine butterfly evolved as the result of hybridization between the two other species living at lower elevations.
Quote from: mikeman7918
a single photon can pass through two sluts

Quote from: Chicken Fried Clucker
if Donald Trump stuck his penis in me after trying on clothes I would have that date and time burned in my head.

Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2015, 09:31:55 AM »
Quote from: Jimmy
Perhaps you should falsify round earth theory before working on alternative hypotheses?

Developing a FE model that functions better than the RE would achieve just that: falisfication is rarely as direct as I've seen assumed here.

Quote
You've got one:  the earth is flat.  This is a falsifiable hypothesis.  The problem you face is that it's already falsified...
It predicts the earth is flat.  Test that hypothesis.
The Earth being flat is part of a hypothesis: what matters is what this would predict. That's what needs to be developed in order to find an accurate hypothesis.

Quote
Here's guidance on what a good hypothesis should be:
Please note that I do follow them. I take more reasonable, and often scientifically interesting areas, and examine how they would apply exclusively to an FE model: and how the subsequent implications would not be addressed or developed by the RE model.
I do use preliminary observations. You are the one arguing that I should not, it seems: you, according to the rest of your post, are of the opinion that because a cursory examination with no refinement or alteration (which may be well within the bounds of possibility) does not allow for an FE model, the FE model should be rejected. This is unscientific.
I am open to being wrong: I am one major error away from rejecting the FE model, having already acknowledged doing so twice.
However, this does not mean it is unscientific to work on a hypothesis. Every hypothesis necessarily begins undefined. No theory sprouts fully-formed into being. First you posit connections, then explanations, then formulae. A full replacement of a model is more complex than a typical hypothesis, so it will be slower going, and it can't be done in an effective piecemeal fashion because one replaced hypothesis will likely not be in line with the rest of the model: full replacement is required.

I am testing to see if the Earth is flat. To do so, I conclude what would most likely be the case to justify our observations, and what these justifications would predict. These explanations are derived from scientific knowledge: hypothesized connections, unexpected gaps, and mysteries in modern science.
When a working model is found, I will then be able to test, and so confirm or reject a hypothesis.
Just because the hypothesis I am testing is whether the Earth is flat does not make what I am doing less scientific.
Here for the scientific development of a Flat Earth model. Happy to be proven wrong, as I hope you are too.

Re: Designing a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2015, 11:20:41 AM »
Verbosity is no replacement for the scientific method.
Quote from: mikeman7918
a single photon can pass through two sluts

Quote from: Chicken Fried Clucker
if Donald Trump stuck his penis in me after trying on clothes I would have that date and time burned in my head.