Plastic RF Filters are possible - proof to Rayzor

Quote from: BJ1234 on August 15, 2015, 06:37:12 PM

Quote from: jroa on August 15, 2015, 05:16:03 PM

Would someone please explain the difference between series and parallel for BJ1234?

Please show where there are 4 capacitors connected in series would you?  If you could draw the current path, that would be great.

I am on my phone, so I can't draw right now, but remove the inductors and you will see that the caps are in series.  It is not rocket science.

OK, so you remove the inductors.  Tell me, how are the 4 capacitors now I'm series?  I see two sets of two series capacitors.  One of which has a resistor in parallel with it.

Dude, we are discussing RF filters, and now I have to give a lesson on basic series cicuits.  Really?  What do you not understand about it?  The current that flows through one set of caps is the same current that flows through the other set, or, in other words, they are in series.  The inductors are in parallel.  Please, Mikey or Rayzor, conferm this so this idiot will shut up.

Dude, we are discussing RF filters, and now I have to give a lesson on basic series cicuits.  Really?  What do you not understand about it?  The current that flows through one set of caps is the same current that flows through the other set, or, in other words, they are in series.  The inductors are in parallel.  Please, Mikey or Rayzor, conferm this so this idiot will shut up.

The caps in the signal path are in series  and the inductance is in parallel.  It's a pi network.  The caps in the ground path look like just DC blocking.   I doubt they contribute anything much to the filtering.

I've got a better idea,  since we have a professional RF filter designer on the forum,  namely Yendor,   why don't we let Yendor do the calculations and tell us the cut off frequency,  output impedance etc..

Thanks.  Now the big kids can discuss big kid stuff. 

Quote from: jroa on August 15, 2015, 08:41:51 PM

Dude, we are discussing RF filters, and now I have to give a lesson on basic series cicuits.  Really?  What do you not understand about it?  The current that flows through one set of caps is the same current that flows through the other set, or, in other words, they are in series.  The inductors are in parallel.  Please, Mikey or Rayzor, conferm this so this idiot will shut up.

The caps in the signal path are in series  and the inductance is in parallel.  It's a pi network.  The caps in the ground path look like just DC blocking.   I doubt they contribute anything much to the filtering.

I've got a better idea,  since we have a professional RF filter designer on the forum,  namely Yendor,   why don't we let Yendor do the calculations and tell us the cut off frequency,  output impedance etc..

When you design filters the customer will tell you the information you need in order to design a filter for him. That includes things, What is he trying to do. Allow all frequencies to pass until a  certain frequency is reached. The designer then knows the customer wants a low pass filter. If the opposite is true where he wants all low frequencies to be blocked to a certain frequencies then that would be a high pass filter. If he wants only a certain range of frequencies to pass then that would be a band pass filter. If he wants all frequencies to pass and only a certain range of frequencies to be blocked that would be a notch filter or band stop. The customer has to give the cut off frequencies, the pass band frequencies, range of frequencies he wants to pass or reject. The pass band ripple, usually at the -3db point. The pass band or reject band frequency range has to be known to decide how many sections the filter has to have. The designer has to know the of attenuation the filter has to achieve. Filters can't be designed to cover the entire frequency band, so often times there are come backs when the filter reaches it's limits and then another filter has to be added in series with the primary filter to filter out the come backs. The more sections added to a filter the wider it becomes and the insertion loss increases. Sometimes the filter skirts become so wide because of the number of section a low pass or high pass filters or both have to be added. Filter designing is nothing but a bunch of compromises because physics is what it is. Not only is insertion loss a big worry, you have to worry about the VSWR in the pass band. The VSWR, usually called return loss, has to be low enough or it will subtract too much from the RF power. Depending on the frequency and other factors, the designer has to decide what type of filter the customer needs, Chebyshev or butterworth because each one has different characteristics. I can go on but this is enough. there are filter calculators on the internet  that will design filters for you. We mostly used Eagle software. You know, filter design was not really my specialty. I only designed filters when I didn't have other things to do. I was actually hired as a digital design engineer. I would mostly design computer controlled tunable filter networks or RF switch matrices.

Paragraphs are your friend.

Paragraphs are your friend.

Just trying to teach you something crab man. It takes a lot of words to get through that thick skull of yours. My pleasure.

Quote from: Rayzor on August 15, 2015, 10:56:46 PM

Quote from: jroa on August 15, 2015, 08:41:51 PM

Dude, we are discussing RF filters, and now I have to give a lesson on basic series cicuits.  Really?  What do you not understand about it?  The current that flows through one set of caps is the same current that flows through the other set, or, in other words, they are in series.  The inductors are in parallel.  Please, Mikey or Rayzor, conferm this so this idiot will shut up.

The caps in the signal path are in series  and the inductance is in parallel.  It's a pi network.  The caps in the ground path look like just DC blocking.   I doubt they contribute anything much to the filtering.

I've got a better idea,  since we have a professional RF filter designer on the forum,  namely Yendor,   why don't we let Yendor do the calculations and tell us the cut off frequency,  output impedance etc..

When you design filters the customer will tell you the information you need in order to design a filter for him. That includes things, What is he trying to do. Allow all frequencies to pass until a  certain frequency is reached. The designer then knows the customer wants a low pass filter. If the opposite is true where he wants all low frequencies to be blocked to a certain frequencies then that would be a high pass filter. If he wants only a certain range of frequencies to pass then that would be a band pass filter. If he wants all frequencies to pass and only a certain range of frequencies to be blocked that would be a notch filter or band stop. The customer has to give the cut off frequencies, the pass band frequencies, range of frequencies he wants to pass or reject. The pass band ripple, usually at the -3db point. The pass band or reject band frequency range has to be known to decide how many sections the filter has to have. The designer has to know the of attenuation the filter has to achieve. Filters can't be designed to cover the entire frequency band, so often times there are come backs when the filter reaches it's limits and then another filter has to be added in series with the primary filter to filter out the come backs. The more sections added to a filter the wider it becomes and the insertion loss increases. Sometimes the filter skirts become so wide because of the number of section a low pass or high pass filters or both have to be added. Filter designing is nothing but a bunch of compromises because physics is what it is. Not only is insertion loss a big worry, you have to worry about the VSWR in the pass band. The VSWR, usually called return loss, has to be low enough or it will subtract too much from the RF power. Depending on the frequency and other factors, the designer has to decide what type of filter the customer needs, Chebyshev or butterworth because each one has different characteristics. I can go on but this is enough. there are filter calculators on the internet  that will design filters for you. We mostly used Eagle software. You know, filter design was not really my specialty. I only designed filters when I didn't have other things to do. I was actually hired as a digital design engineer. I would mostly design computer controlled tunable filter networks or RF switch matrices.

Ok,   so what's the cut-off frequency and  input output impedances for the design we are discussing?

Once again, you are not understanding what was written. Your reading comprehension lacks severely.
Rayzor was asking you about non-conductive antenna and RF filters.  You then went on and gave an example of a plastic RF filter that is electroplated with copper and silver.  Which, to me, supports his claim that non-conductive antenna and RF filters are not available.  Unless you are claiming that copper and silver are non-conductive.

They can be simply made from rectified charged ceramic . But that technology is way beyond your pay bracket. 

OK, jroa, how could all the capacitors in this circuit have the same current going through them?
Let us start from the bottom left and work our way to the top left.  Capacitors will be labels C1 thru C4 starting at the bottom left and working around counter clockwise.

Let us assume that all junctions split the current equally for ease of seeing things.

-Current X enters and splits off into L1, R, and C1.  The current going through C1 is X/3.  It appears that this is the current flowing through all the capacitors according to your statement that all the capacitors are in series.

-Current X/3 then gets split at the next junction point.  So between L2 and C2.  Current flowing through C2 is X/6. 

-Current X/6 then joins up with current from the resistor, which was X/3.  So this current is now X/2.

-Current is now split between going off to the right and through L3.  Which is now X/4.

Now to the upper right.

-Current X/4 from the right joins the current X/4 from L3.  So we have X/2 back there which is flowing through C3.

-So X/2 through C3 now joins up with current X/6 from L2.  We now have a current of 2X/3 flowing through C4.

-This then joins up with the current X/3 from L1.  This brings us back to a current of X.

So now we have the currents flowing through the capacitors.
C1 = X/3
C2 = X/6
C3 = X/2
C4 = 2X/3

So tell me, why would you claim that all the capacitors have the same current flowing through them?
Oh wait, thats right, you are ignoring all the other components in the circuit.  Silly me, I guess we don't need inductors or a resistor in this circuit.

Quote from: BJ1234 on August 11, 2015, 04:29:06 PM

Once again, you are not understanding what was written. Your reading comprehension lacks severely.
Rayzor was asking you about non-conductive antenna and RF filters.  You then went on and gave an example of a plastic RF filter that is electroplated with copper and silver.  Which, to me, supports his claim that non-conductive antenna and RF filters are not available.  Unless you are claiming that copper and silver are non-conductive.

They can be simply made from rectified charged ceramic . But that technology is way beyond your pay bracket. 

Strange, I just did a google search of the term rectified charged ceramic, and all that is turning up is a bunch of links for porcelain and other types of tiles.  Could you supply more information about this technology?

The caps are not in parallel, they are in series, idiot.  Rayzor confirmed this.  I suppose that you think you are smarter than a couple of engineers who do this for a living.  Maybe we can now discuss the RF circuit that everyone else is discussing?  Or, maybe we can just hear your hair brained ideas about what is and what is not a series circuit?

The caps are not in parallel, they are in series, idiot.  Rayzor confirmed this.  I suppose that you think you are smarter than a couple of engineers who do this for a living.  Maybe we can now discuss the RF circuit that everyone else is discussing?  Or, maybe we can just hear your hair brained ideas about what is and what is not a series circuit?

I have never said they were in parallel.  I have just mentioned that they are not in series.  I have also shown why I believe this.  All you have don is ad hominems and assertions.  Also, from what I have read, Rayzor did not say that ALL the caps are in series, just the ones in the signal.  You also might need to go back to basic electronics class and relearn some things.  Because you seem to think that this circuit is a series circuit, when it is clearly not.

you guys are really into this filter stuff. I only mentioned TVI filters as an example of filters made without metal enclosures. Have fun.

L

Quote from: jroa on August 17, 2015, 03:25:48 AM

The caps are not in parallel, they are in series, idiot.  Rayzor confirmed this.  I suppose that you think you are smarter than a couple of engineers who do this for a living.  Maybe we can now discuss the RF circuit that everyone else is discussing?  Or, maybe we can just hear your hair brained ideas about what is and what is not a series circuit?

I have never said they were in parallel.  I have just mentioned that they are not in series.  I have also shown why I believe this.  All you have don is ad hominems and assertions.  Also, from what I have read, Rayzor did not say that ALL the caps are in series, just the ones in the signal.  You also might need to go back to basic electronics class and relearn some things.  Because you seem to think that this circuit is a series circuit, when it is clearly not.

Let me dumb this down so that maybe you can understand.  Think about having a resistor in line with the positive and negative side of a dc circuit.  The two resistors would be in series, even though they are in opposite polarities.  Same thing here, dummy.  Please, challenge my basic electrical knowledge some more. 

L

Quote from: BJ1234 on August 17, 2015, 06:08:10 AM

Quote from: jroa on August 17, 2015, 03:25:48 AM

The caps are not in parallel, they are in series, idiot.  Rayzor confirmed this.  I suppose that you think you are smarter than a couple of engineers who do this for a living.  Maybe we can now discuss the RF circuit that everyone else is discussing?  Or, maybe we can just hear your hair brained ideas about what is and what is not a series circuit?

I have never said they were in parallel.  I have just mentioned that they are not in series.  I have also shown why I believe this.  All you have don is ad hominems and assertions.  Also, from what I have read, Rayzor did not say that ALL the caps are in series, just the ones in the signal.  You also might need to go back to basic electronics class and relearn some things.  Because you seem to think that this circuit is a series circuit, when it is clearly not.

Let me dumb this down so that maybe you can understand.  Think about having a resistor in line with the positive and negative side of a dc circuit.  The two resistors would be in series, even though they are in opposite polarities.  Same thing here, dummy.  Please, challenge my basic electrical knowledge some more. 

Can you dumb it down even more by sketching a diagram? You start by describing a resistor (singular) in a DC circuit and then ask whether "the two resistors" are in series. Which two resistors (plural)?

Did you mean like this? It shows a resistor (singular) in line with the positive and negative sides of a DC circuit, as described.



Or, did, you mean a resistor connected to the positive side of a DC circuit then connected in series to another resistor which is then connected to the negative side of the circuit?

This is why schematic drawings are better than descriptions.

At any rate, even if the latter is what you really mean, can you explain what this has to do with the filter circuit in question, which is not a simple series circuit since it has multiple branches?

Since you apparently don't know, a series circuit is "An electric circuit connected so that current passes through each circuit element in turn without branching." You seem to either have missed the "without branching" part, or not know what it means.

You claim that you have a degree in electronics, don't you? Didn't they teach you this most basic of information about circuit analysis? If you paid tuition for this degree, you seriously need to consider a lawsuit against whatever "institution" took your money in exchange for an apparently meaningless piece of paper. If you went on the GI Bill, they need to be investigated as a diploma mill.

None of the current that flows through any inductor also flows through any other inductor.  This means that the inductors are parallel with respect to each other.  Current that flows through any cap also flows through other caps.  This means they are in series with respect to each other.  The resistor is in series with two caps and in parallel to the other two.  This is basic electronics.  Now, can we get back on topic now that you have had your electrical lesson?

None of the current that flows through any inductor also flows through any other inductor.  This means that the inductors are parallel with respect to each other. 

No, because the voltages across L1, L2, and L3 are different. At DC, all the current flows through L1 and none through L2 and L3 since the capacitive reactance is infinity. If there is an AC component it gets more complex (get it?), but you still have different voltages across all three inductors. By definition, elements in parallel have the same voltage across them, therefore they are not in parallel.

Current that flows through any cap also flows through other caps. 

Nope, sorry. You're just wrong here, too.

Go back and re-read BJ1234's post, please. Some of the current flowing flowing through C1 (using his nomenclature) does not flow through C2 and C3 since it flows through the middle inductor, L2, instead.

This means they are in series with respect to each other. 

Nope. Since there is a node between C1 & C2, they by definition, are not in series. See Common DC Circuit Theory Terms (partway down the page) if you're unfamiliar with the terminology. They apply to AC circuits also, but DC is easier to grasp.

In fact, since there are no two elements without a node between them, then none of them are in series.

The resistor is in series with two caps and in parallel to the other two. 

Nope. Sorry. The inductor, L2, between C1 and C2 and between C3 and C4 forms another branch, which invalidates both assertions. The nodes between the resistor and the load further invalidates the former.

This is basic electronics. 

Now it is.

Now, can we get back on topic now that you have had your electrical lesson?

Since the electrical lesson we've gotten from you so far is "jroa's lack of understanding of basic circuits", then we see that pretty well. Now that your lack of understanding has been clearly demonstrated, we can move on if you want. Since the topic was Yendor's assertion that RF Filters could be made out of nonconductive materials, and he's already thrown in the towel on that, there's not much left to discuss, unless you want to give other examples of what you don't know about circuit analysis.

Here's the circuit in question again, for reference.

Alpha, I didn't throw in the towel, I won. I showed you plastic RF filters made from plastic and then electroplated to provide grounding and shielding. What else is there, I proved my point. Just because you can't comprehend it, doesn't mean I threw in the towel. You know, you can look there things up on the internet the same as me. Good luck next time.

Alpha, you are thinking in terms of a purely parallel or series circuits.  This is a combination circuit, meaning that individual components are in series or in parallel to other components.  All of the inductors are in parallel with respect to each other, because none of the current that flows through any inductor also flows through another inductor.  All of the caps are in series with respect to each other because some of the current that flows through one does in fact flow through others.  You have to look at how the components interact with each other in order to figure out if they are connected in series or parallel.

Alpha, I didn't throw in the towel, I won. I showed you plastic RF filters made from plastic and then electroplated to provide grounding and shielding. What else is there, I proved my point. Just because you can't comprehend it, doesn't mean I threw in the towel. You know, you can look there things up on the internet the same as me. Good luck next time.

I've run out of troll food, and they say don't feed the trolls anyway,   I'm not bothered to point out yet again why you were wrong,  but I am surprised you still think non-conductive plastic antennas and filters will work.   Last time you blamed old-age and failing memory.   I'll go one step further and say that you are completely out of your tiny mind.

If you want to restart the whole debate,   please feel free to once again look like a clown,  you choose.

I'm still waiting on the filter calculations.

Quote from: Yendor on August 17, 2015, 02:44:06 PM

Alpha, I didn't throw in the towel, I won. I showed you plastic RF filters made from plastic and then electroplated to provide grounding and shielding. What else is there, I proved my point. Just because you can't comprehend it, doesn't mean I threw in the towel. You know, you can look there things up on the internet the same as me. Good luck next time.

I've run out of troll food, and they say don't feed the trolls anyway,   I'm not bothered to point out yet again why you were wrong,  but I am surprised you still think non-conductive plastic antennas and filters will work.   Last time you blamed old-age and failing memory.   I'll go one step further and say that you are completely out of your tiny mind.

If you want to restart the whole debate,   please feel free to once again look like a clown,  you choose.

I'm still waiting on the filter calculations.

You know Rayzor, You have to have one of the thickest skulls with the smallest brain on this forum. You can't point out nothing because you are completely wrong about everything as usual. You must be old with dementia because You haven't the slightest idea what I've been talking about on this whole post. Everything I said must have flown over your head. You don't read what I say because you can't comprehend. You have quoted me on things I never said, you don't even know what electroplated plastic is or plastic antennas that have an outside wire conductor. You didn't even know you can make circuits on fiberglass or phenolic material. You are just an old dumb ass who knows how to pull the right strings on people. But you know, I like you anyway. I'm glad we can still be friends. So go ahead and call me a clown if it makes you feel better about yourself. You need all the help you can get. I'd love to know you in person, we could drink a beer together. No, I certainly do not want to restart the whole debate again, You have worn me out on this one.

Quote from: Rayzor on August 17, 2015, 07:40:47 PM

Quote from: Yendor on August 17, 2015, 02:44:06 PM

Alpha, I didn't throw in the towel, I won. I showed you plastic RF filters made from plastic and then electroplated to provide grounding and shielding. What else is there, I proved my point. Just because you can't comprehend it, doesn't mean I threw in the towel. You know, you can look there things up on the internet the same as me. Good luck next time.

I've run out of troll food, and they say don't feed the trolls anyway,   I'm not bothered to point out yet again why you were wrong,  but I am surprised you still think non-conductive plastic antennas and filters will work.   Last time you blamed old-age and failing memory.   I'll go one step further and say that you are completely out of your tiny mind.

If you want to restart the whole debate,   please feel free to once again look like a clown,  you choose.

I'm still waiting on the filter calculations.

You know Rayzor, You have to have one of the thickest skulls with the smallest brain on this forum. You can't point out nothing because you are completely wrong about everything as usual. You must be old with dementia because You haven't the slightest idea what I've been talking about on this whole post. Everything I said must have flown over your head. You don't read what I say because you can't comprehend. You have quoted me on things I never said, you don't even know what electroplated plastic is or plastic antennas that have an outside wire conductor. You didn't even know you can make circuits on fiberglass or phenolic material. You are just an old dumb ass who knows how to pull the right strings on people. But you know, I like you anyway. I'm glad we can still be friends. So go ahead and call me a clown if it makes you feel better about yourself. You need all the help you can get. I'd love to know you in person, we could drink a beer together. No, I certainly do not want to restart the whole debate again, You have worn me out on this one.

I was adding it up the other day,   Since my first computer design in 1983,  I've designed over 500 circuit boards,  including quite a few microwave stripline boards on teflon substrate,  I must be doing something wrong because I haven't yet managed to make one from NON CONDUCTIVE materials,  although I did do a design years ago with conductive ink on flexible substrate.  Back in the early days I used to work on a light table with bishop graphics stick on's and everything was hand taped at 4x size, then photographically reduced.   Those were fun days.   These days I just email cad files to China,  more efficient but, not as much fun.

I'm sorry that you got made to look like a complete fool,  I  suspect you got momentarily taken in by scepti and his sound==light stupidity,  and I was a bit unkind in some of my comments.   Next time you are in Australia,  drop me a line and I will shout you a beer ( or two ),  and I'll explain what NON CONDUCTIVE means.   

Alpha, you are thinking in terms of a purely parallel or series circuits. 

Yes. These are called "parallel" circuits and "series" circuits, though. The "purely" qualifier is redundant.

This is a combination circuit, meaning that individual components are in series or in parallel to other components. 

Not one of the components in the circuit under discussion is in parallel or series with another component.

All of the inductors are in parallel with respect to each other, because none of the current that flows through any inductor also flows through another inductor. 

Is that what you think "parallel circuit" means? It's not. You might want to brush up on the basics again. If you do, you'll find that, by definition, the voltage across all branches of a parallel circuit is the same, which is not the case here because of the capacitors between them, which are voltage dividers, and the resistor which bypasses L2.

All of the caps are in series with respect to each other because some of the current that flows through one does in fact flow through others. 

Because there is a node between every pair of components, none are in series. Recall from your electronics training that the current through all elements in a series circuit must be identical. Since the current branches between any pair of elements, this cannot be true.

You have to look at how the components interact with each other in order to figure out if they are connected in series or parallel.

Yes. In this case, none are.

As is often the case, the Wikipedia article sums it up nicely, with citations.

Components of an electrical circuit or electronic circuit can be connected in many different ways. The two simplest of these are called series and parallel and occur very frequently. Components connected in series are connected along a single path, so the same current flows through all of the components.[1][2] Components connected in parallel are connected so the same voltage is applied to each component.[3]

A circuit composed solely of components connected in series is known as a series circuit; likewise, one connected completely in parallel is known as a parallel circuit.

In a series circuit, the current through each of the components is the same, and the voltage across the circuit is the sum of the voltages across each component.[1] In a parallel circuit, the voltage across each of the components is the same, and the total current is the sum of the currents through each component.[3]

1. Resnick et al. (1966), Chapter 32, Example 1.
2. Smith, R.J. (1966), page 21.
3. Resnick et al. (1966), Chapter 32, Example 4.

References

Resnick, Robert and Halliday, David (1966), Physics, Vol I and II, Combined edition, Wiley International Edition, Library of Congress Catalog Card No. 66-11527
Smith, R.J. (1966), Circuits, Devices and Systems, Wiley International Edition, New York. Library of Congress Catalog Card No. 66-17612

As far as I know, this hasn't changed since the '60s.

Quote from: Yendor on August 18, 2015, 05:16:30 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on August 17, 2015, 07:40:47 PM

Quote from: Yendor on August 17, 2015, 02:44:06 PM

Alpha, I didn't throw in the towel, I won. I showed you plastic RF filters made from plastic and then electroplated to provide grounding and shielding. What else is there, I proved my point. Just because you can't comprehend it, doesn't mean I threw in the towel. You know, you can look there things up on the internet the same as me. Good luck next time.

I've run out of troll food, and they say don't feed the trolls anyway,   I'm not bothered to point out yet again why you were wrong,  but I am surprised you still think non-conductive plastic antennas and filters will work.   Last time you blamed old-age and failing memory.   I'll go one step further and say that you are completely out of your tiny mind.

If you want to restart the whole debate,   please feel free to once again look like a clown,  you choose.

I'm still waiting on the filter calculations.

You know Rayzor, You have to have one of the thickest skulls with the smallest brain on this forum. You can't point out nothing because you are completely wrong about everything as usual. You must be old with dementia because You haven't the slightest idea what I've been talking about on this whole post. Everything I said must have flown over your head. You don't read what I say because you can't comprehend. You have quoted me on things I never said, you don't even know what electroplated plastic is or plastic antennas that have an outside wire conductor. You didn't even know you can make circuits on fiberglass or phenolic material. You are just an old dumb ass who knows how to pull the right strings on people. But you know, I like you anyway. I'm glad we can still be friends. So go ahead and call me a clown if it makes you feel better about yourself. You need all the help you can get. I'd love to know you in person, we could drink a beer together. No, I certainly do not want to restart the whole debate again, You have worn me out on this one.

I was adding it up the other day,   Since my first computer design in 1983,  I've designed over 500 circuit boards,  including quite a few microwave stripline boards on teflon substrate,  I must be doing something wrong because I haven't yet managed to make one from NON CONDUCTIVE materials,  although I did do a design years ago with conductive ink on flexible substrate.  Back in the early days I used to work on a light table with bishop graphics stick on's and everything was hand taped at 4x size, then photographically reduced.   Those were fun days.   These days I just email cad files to China,  more efficient but, not as much fun.

I'm sorry that you got made to look like a complete fool,  I  suspect you got momentarily taken in by scepti and his sound==light stupidity,  and I was a bit unkind in some of my comments.   Next time you are in Australia,  drop me a line and I will shout you a beer ( or two ),  and I'll explain what NON CONDUCTIVE means.   

Rayzor,
You know, we must be near the same age because you and I have a lot in common as far a careers go. I spent my last three years of high school going to a vocation school Where I studied electronics. The electronics I studied back then was vacuum tube theory. We had an aluminum chassis we used to build the circuit in and Greenlee punches to knock out where the tube sockets went. I didn't study  transistor theory until Tech school in the Navy. One of the early companies I worked for, we did pc boards the same way. I would actually draw the circuit on grid paper, I'm talking digital circuits not RF, and we had one guy who would actually layout the circuit 1:1, using a light table. He would put red and blue tape over the actual traces I drew because he could not read a schematic. He would then, with photograph filters, make the two sides and blow them up 4:1. We used a local company who would make the boards. We didn't do plated through holes, we had to drill out all the pads an run a 'Z' wire from one side to the other. With much hard work, I finally persuaded the company to purchase a PET Commodore computer and a Houston Graphics plotter and then I could do the pc boards myself and them send them out to be professionally made. Yes, electronics was fun back then because you could actually see the components and they had actual leads you could solder to. We built miniature switched filter banks. The switches were PIN diodes and were so small you couldn't see them without a microscope. At K&L we did the same as you. We didn't do strip line, we only did micro strip on teflon double sided boards. After the boards where made we would send them out to be gold plated. Okay that's enough about me.

I'd love to visit  Australia, but I'm afraid standing on my head all the time, I'd get headaches. But seriously though, I hear horror stories about all the snakes there. Snakes scare me, Where I live, we have no native poisonous snakes. So we don't worry about them. I can't imagine having to watch where I step all the time. And yes, I'd love to share a beer with you, I'n fact I'm having one now. Cheers mate. (isn't that what you guys say?)

Alpha, the circuit is neither a series nor a parallel circuit.  It is a combination, or compound circuit.  In other words, some of the components are arranged in series with respect to other components, and some are arranged in parallel.  You keep insisting that, for example, all of the parallel components must have the same voltage.  This is only true for a purely parallel circuit, but not when there are series components mixed in with the parallel components.  Here, have a little read about combination circuits and learn something. 

When analyzing combination circuits, it is critically important to have a solid understanding of the concepts that pertain to both series circuits and parallel circuits. Since both types of connections are used in combination circuits, the concepts associated with both types of circuits apply to the respective parts of the circuit.

As Rayzor already mentioned, the filter circuit in question is a type of Chebyshev PI filter, which is a combination circuit, because some of the components are in series and some are in parallel.  Here is the definition for a basic PI filter.  The definition is the circuit in its most basic form, and the filter in question has extra components added, but it is the same circuit none the less. 

A PI filter is a filter that has a series element and two parallel elements connected in the shape of the Greek letter PI.

Here is an expanded version of the PI filter.  You will notice that this example only has the series component on one leg of the input. 



You claim that the capacitors on the positive side of the input are not in series with the ones in the negative side.  Dude, you make me feel dumber every time I read something that you write to make yourself sound like you know anything about electricity.  Here is an example of a circuit that has resistors in the positive and negative side, as well as in between.  Please, do a little bit of studying before you show any more of your ignorance.



I only have a bachelor's electrical degree, but I do have a friend who has a masters in EE, has a PE certification, and is only a dissertation away from his doctorate, from what I remember him telling me in the past.  If you want, I can have him send me an email confirming what I have said and either post it here with his name and email blocked out, or forward it directly to you without blocking his name or email, if you don't mind giving me your email address. 

Quote from: Yendor on August 18, 2015, 05:16:30 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on August 17, 2015, 07:40:47 PM

Quote from: Yendor on August 17, 2015, 02:44:06 PM

Alpha, I didn't throw in the towel, I won. I showed you plastic RF filters made from plastic and then electroplated to provide grounding and shielding. What else is there, I proved my point. Just because you can't comprehend it, doesn't mean I threw in the towel. You know, you can look there things up on the internet the same as me. Good luck next time.

I've run out of troll food, and they say don't feed the trolls anyway,   I'm not bothered to point out yet again why you were wrong,  but I am surprised you still think non-conductive plastic antennas and filters will work.   Last time you blamed old-age and failing memory.   I'll go one step further and say that you are completely out of your tiny mind.

If you want to restart the whole debate,   please feel free to once again look like a clown,  you choose.

I'm still waiting on the filter calculations.

You know Rayzor, You have to have one of the thickest skulls with the smallest brain on this forum. You can't point out nothing because you are completely wrong about everything as usual. You must be old with dementia because You haven't the slightest idea what I've been talking about on this whole post. Everything I said must have flown over your head. You don't read what I say because you can't comprehend. You have quoted me on things I never said, you don't even know what electroplated plastic is or plastic antennas that have an outside wire conductor. You didn't even know you can make circuits on fiberglass or phenolic material. You are just an old dumb ass who knows how to pull the right strings on people. But you know, I like you anyway. I'm glad we can still be friends. So go ahead and call me a clown if it makes you feel better about yourself. You need all the help you can get. I'd love to know you in person, we could drink a beer together. No, I certainly do not want to restart the whole debate again, You have worn me out on this one.

I was adding it up the other day,   Since my first computer design in 1983,  I've designed over 500 circuit boards,  including quite a few microwave stripline boards on teflon substrate,  I must be doing something wrong because I haven't yet managed to make one from NON CONDUCTIVE materials,  although I did do a design years ago with conductive ink on flexible substrate.  Back in the early days I used to work on a light table with bishop graphics stick on's and everything was hand taped at 4x size, then photographically reduced.   Those were fun days.   These days I just email cad files to China,  more efficient but, not as much fun.

I'm sorry that you got made to look like a complete fool,  I  suspect you got momentarily taken in by scepti and his sound==light stupidity,  and I was a bit unkind in some of my comments.   Next time you are in Australia,  drop me a line and I will shout you a beer ( or two ),  and I'll explain what NON CONDUCTIVE means.   

Define conductive ? Then define ferrous & non ferrous ? Then if I can be bothered ,we can discuss charged particals .electrical & magnetic field Configuration.

Alpha, the circuit is neither a series nor a parallel circuit.  It is a combination, or compound circuit.  In other words, some of the components are arranged in series with respect to other components, and some are arranged in parallel.  You keep insisting that, for example, all of the parallel components must have the same voltage.  This is only true for a purely parallel circuit, but not when there are series components mixed in with the parallel components.  Here, have a little read about combination circuits and learn something. 

Quote from: http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/circuits/Lesson-4/Combination-Circuits

When analyzing combination circuits, it is critically important to have a solid understanding of the concepts that pertain to both series circuits and parallel circuits. Since both types of connections are used in combination circuits, the concepts associated with both types of circuits apply to the respective parts of the circuit.

Since you're fond of quoting out of context, let's see what the section that paragraph came from really says:

Previously in Lesson 4, it was mentioned that there are two different ways to connect two or more electrical devices together in a circuit. They can be connected by means of series connections or by means of parallel connections. When all the devices in a circuit are connected by series connections, then the circuit is referred to as a series circuit. When all the devices in a circuit are connected by parallel connections, then the circuit is referred to as a parallel circuit. A third type of circuit involves the dual use of series and parallel connections in a circuit; such circuits are referred to as compound circuits or combination circuits. The circuit depicted [below] is an example of the use of both series and parallel connections within the same circuit. In this case, light bulbs A and B are connected by parallel connections and light bulbs C and D are connected by series connections. This is an example of a combination circuit.

When analyzing combination circuits, it is critically important to have a solid understanding of the concepts that pertain to both series circuits and parallel circuits. Since both types of connections are used in combination circuits, the concepts associated with both types of circuits apply to the respective parts of the circuit. The main concepts associated with series and parallel circuits are organized in the [tables] below.

Series Circuits

• The current is the same in every resistor; this current is equal to that in the battery.
• The sum of the voltage drops across the individual resistors is equal to the voltage rating of the battery.
• The overall resistance of the collection of resistors is equal to the sum of the individual resistance values,
  R_tot = R₁ + R₂ + R₃ + ...

Parallel Circuits

• The voltage drop is the same across each parallel branch.
• The sum of the current in each individual branch is equal to the current outside the branches.
• The equivalent or overall resistance of the collection of resistors is given by the equation
  1/R_eq = 1/R₁ + 1/R₂ + 1/R₃ ...

Can you point to any two components that are in series in the filter circuit we're discussing, using the correct definition for series circuit? The one from the reference you cited will suffice. Note the first concept in the Series Circuit table, with bolding added.

"You keep insisting that, for example, all of the parallel components must have the same voltage."

It's not just me. See the references cited in my previous response, or, even better, it's in bold in the Parallel Circuits table from the reference you provided.

By the way, I searched the page you cite for the word "pure" as in "pure serial circuit" and "pure parallel circuit" or "purely parallel circuit" and came up empty. They talk about serial circuits and parallel circuits without further qualification, and define them exactly as I (and everyone else I've read except you) do.

As Rayzor already mentioned, the filter circuit in question is a type of Chebyshev PI filter, which is a combination circuit, because some of the components are in series and some are in parallel.  Here is the definition for a basic PI filter.  The definition is the circuit in its most basic form, and the filter in question has extra components added, but it is the same circuit none the less. 

Quote from: http://www.calculatoredge.com/electronics/ch%20pi%20high%20pass.htm

A PI filter is a filter that has a series element and two parallel elements connected in the shape of the Greek letter PI.

That's a rather informal description of the PI circuit. Not everything published on the Internet is strictly correct; if what you're reading matters, cross-checking against other reliable sources is prudent.

Here is an expanded version of the PI filter.  You will notice that this example only has the series component on one leg of the input. 

There are no series components according to the definition of a series circuit. This is easy to show:

Assuming the signal source is on the left and load is on the right, and inductors L₁, L₂, and L₃ and capacitors C₁ and C₂ in the circuit above all have finite, non-zero impedance, then some of the current that passes through C₁ will pass through L₂ and the remainder will pass through C₂. Remember, The current is the same in every [element] (from your reference). Since the current through C₁ and C₂ are not equal, they cannot be in series. Note that C₁ and L₂ aren't a series circuit, either, because their currents are also different.

Similarly, the inductors are not in parallel because the voltage at the node between C₁ and C₂ must be lower than the signal voltage because of the voltage drop due to the current through the impedance of C₁ (Ohm's Law and all that). Ergo, the voltage across L₂ is less than the voltage across L₁ and the characteristic that the voltage drop is the same across each parallel branch (from your reference) fails.

You claim that the capacitors on the positive side of the input are not in series with the ones in the negative side. 

Given the necessary characteristic of a series circuit from your reference[nb]I keep harping on this because you seem to ignore my references. Maybe you'll be willing to learn from your own.[/nb] that the current is the same in every resistor, go back and review the analysis provided by BJ1234 a few days ago shows a different current through each capacitor. Since this characteristic is absent, the capacitors are not in series. Period. This should not be that hard to understand.

Note that that current through each element being equal is a necessary, but not sufficient, requirement to determine that elements are in series. Since that requirement isn't met, however, the elements are categorically not in series.

<Snarky ad-hom .>  Here is an example of a circuit that has resistors in the positive and negative side, as well as in between.  Please, do a little bit of studying before you show any more of your ignorance.

Image of circuit with resistors in series with battery.

I think all would agree that that's an example of a series circuit. Do you have a point?

I only have a bachelor's electrical degree, but I do have a friend who has a masters in EE, has a PE certification, and is only a dissertation away from his doctorate, from what I remember him telling me in the past.  If you want, I can have him send me an email confirming what I have said and either post it here with his name and email blocked out, or forward it directly to you without blocking his name or email, if you don't mind giving me your email address.

Please do. Just post the correspondence here with the ID redacted. I don't want to pester your friend, and doubt he wants to be "investigated" by some member of the Flat Earth Society forums. There would be no practical way to truly verify what you claim he says is really from who you say he is without a meeting in person or, perhaps, involving other parties, and I don't intend to do that.

If possible, can he include reference(s) to scholarly or professional publication(s), or college textbook(s) that support what you are saying; that would be better than giving me a name and email address.
 

Haha