Explaining quantom mechanics to flat earthers

  • 19 Replies
  • 7327 Views
*

mikeman7918

  • 5431
  • +0/-0
  • Round Earther
Explaining quantom mechanics to flat earthers
« on: August 09, 2015, 11:07:24 PM »
Explaining something as counteractive as quantum mechanics is difficult, and explaining anything to a flat earther is difficult.  Combining the two makes for one formidable challenge, so here goes:

The first thing you must realize is that you have to learn to think outside of classical Newtonian mechanics.  Your brain is wired to survive on this world we find ourselves in and that does not require understanding the behavior of things as a quantum scale, so expect that this idea will challenge your way of thinking.  Everything seems to have a definite position and velocity, behave in a single easy to predict way, and the act of observing something doesn't seem to effect it.  When you get down to a quantum scale all these things you think you know are wrong, which seems insane but bear with me and remember that your brain is not wired to understand this.

Quantum objects move in a way that you cannot predict with certainty, you can only say the probability of it being in a certain place at a certain time.  Basically the particle "sniffs out" every single potability and then settles on one once it is observed.  It should be noted that when I say "observed" I mean that it is interacted with in such a way that it's possible to determine it's position.  The different possible locations of the particle form a wave pattern that can interfere with it's self as seen in the double slit experiment, which produces an interference paturn even if the photons, electrons, or any other fundamental particle are fired one at a time.  A way of thinking of this that I find helpful is a speck of dirt in a rain drop: at first it's all in one place and then it spreads out like a wave when it hits the ground, the dirt is more likely to be in the crests of the wave because there is more water there.

Another drastic revision that needs to be made to your classical way of thinking is about the certainty in an object's position and velocity.  In a nutshell Heisenberg's uncertainty principal states that the more you know about an object's position the less you can know about it's velocity and visa versa.  If you wanted to know the position and velocity of, say, an electron you would do that by firing a photon at it and seeing how it's altered.  The accuracy in which you can measure the position of the electron with this method is based on the wavelength you fire at it because your accuracy is always within one wavelength of that light.  The problem however is that wavelength is inversely proportional to the energy of the photon and the higher the energy is the more it disturbs the velocity of the electron.  All other experiments you could possibly preform on the electron are like this, it's not just a technological limitation but a fundamental law of the universe.  We know this because shooting light through a slit and making the slit thinner will make the light smear out when it gets thin enough because the small slit means that the low uncertainty in position (because we know that the photon is in that small slit) will make the uncertainty in velocity rise, causing the light to change directions and smear out.

Something that is commonly associated with quantum mechanics is the fact that things can have multiple states and collapses into one when observed, I will explain that in more detail.  The double slit experiment is the perfect example of this, because a particle goes through both slits, one slit, the other slit, and none of the slits at the same time as the probability wave passes.  The path that the particle finally settles upon is undefined.  If you try to measure a particle to see which slit it goes through then that will disturb it enough to collapse the quantum wave form and then the particles behave like particles and hit the screen in a way that you would expect if you put particles through the double slits, but removing the measurement devices causes the interference pattern to return.

Quantum entanglement is another interesting topic.  There is a property of all particles called "spin", the particle is not technically rotating but the analogy is still a good one.  Every particle has a set spin "speed" that's intrinsic and impossible to change, however the direction of the spin can change.  Photons have a spin of one and if you create two photons together in a process you know will produce photons with a combined spin of zero then those photons are now entangled.  Being quantum objects their spin is uncertain until measured, and so they are a superposition of both spin up and spin down at the same time.  If you measure one of the photons and it's spin up then you immediately know that the other one is spin down without measuring it which means that it's superposition has been collapsed, and if it's measured it will indeed have spin down.  Basically one photon collapsed the superposition of another without communicating with it, and this doesn't violate spacial relativity because classical information such as a message cannot be transmitted instantaneously this way.  You could argue that the spin of the photons was decided at the moment of their creation, but there are statistical experiments that have disproved this.

Anyway, if you have any questions feel free to post them, although I probably didn't have to tell you that.  I tried to be as concise as possible and explain this in simple terms, so this does not represent all that people know about quantum mechanics.
I am having a video war with Jeranism.
See the thread about it here.

*

mikeman7918

  • 5431
  • +0/-0
  • Round Earther
Re: Explaining quantom mechanics to flat earthers
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2015, 12:53:19 PM »
Bump

Seriously, are flat earthers afraid to learn about science or something?
I am having a video war with Jeranism.
See the thread about it here.

?

tappet

  • 2162
  • +0/-0
Re: Explaining quantom mechanics to flat earthers
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2015, 01:39:28 PM »
Bump

Seriously, are flat earthers afraid to learn about science or something?
Are all Mormons up to speed with quantum mechanics, or is it just you, you know the 17 year old with assbergers who has a lot of experience in film animation? LOL.


*

Misero

  • 1261
  • +0/-0
  • Of course it's flat. It looks that way up close.
Re: Explaining quantom mechanics to flat earthers
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2015, 01:46:10 PM »
And this is how to debunk an entire scientific theory the flat earther way.
I am the worst moderator ever.

Sometimes I wonder: "Why am  I on this site?"
Then I look at threads about clouds not existing and I go back to posting and lurking. Lurk moar.

*

mikeman7918

  • 5431
  • +0/-0
  • Round Earther
Re: Explaining quantom mechanics to flat earthers
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2015, 01:59:23 PM »
Are all Mormons up to speed with quantum mechanics, or is it just you, you know the 17 year old with assbergers who has a lot of experience in film animation? LOL.

You really like to generalize, don't you.  You must not have enough experience with people to know that if you generalize you are wrong most of the time.

Perhaps you should read the OP and actually try to understand the theories that you are blindly rejecting.  100 years ago people would think you were mad if you told them about what you are doing right now: reading a message on an internet forum on a machine that can do logic.  The same logic applies to quantum mechanics, everybody thinks that they are absurd when first hearing about them but when you learn about them you figure out that there is no way that it can be false and at the same time have the world be as we experience it.
I am having a video war with Jeranism.
See the thread about it here.

?

tappet

  • 2162
  • +0/-0
Re: Explaining quantom mechanics to flat earthers
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2015, 11:20:10 PM »
Are all Mormons up to speed with quantum mechanics, or is it just you, you know the 17 year old with assbergers who has a lot of experience in film animation? LOL.

You really like to generalize, don't you.  You must not have enough experience with people to know that if you generalize you are wrong most of the time.


I guess by the age of 17 I will have gained lots of experience like you.

*

Mainframes

  • 2088
  • +0/-0
Re: Explaining quantom mechanics to flat earthers
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2015, 11:36:22 PM »
Perhaps he just really likes spending his time learning about things and how stuff works; basically the opposite to most flat earthers.....
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance or stupidity.

?

tappet

  • 2162
  • +0/-0
Re: Explaining quantom mechanics to flat earthers
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2015, 03:03:59 AM »
Perhaps he just really likes spending his time learning about things and how stuff works; basically the opposite to most flat earthers.....

At 17 years of age I was learning about girls, but I guess you lot finished with girls at a younger age and moved on to the important stuff like quantum mechanics.

?

guv

  • 1132
  • +0/-0
Re: Explaining quantom mechanics to flat earthers
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2015, 04:16:35 AM »
Perhaps he just really likes spending his time learning about things and how stuff works; basically the opposite to most flat earthers.....

At 17 years of age I was learning about girls, but I guess you lot finished with girls at a younger age and moved on to the important stuff like quantum mechanics.


Tits wheels trouble. How long did take.

*

Misero

  • 1261
  • +0/-0
  • Of course it's flat. It looks that way up close.
Re: Explaining quantom mechanics to flat earthers
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2015, 05:34:09 AM »
And again, this is how to disprove an entire theory the FE way.
I am the worst moderator ever.

Sometimes I wonder: "Why am  I on this site?"
Then I look at threads about clouds not existing and I go back to posting and lurking. Lurk moar.

*

mikeman7918

  • 5431
  • +0/-0
  • Round Earther
Re: Explaining quantom mechanics to flat earthers
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2015, 11:34:52 AM »
At 17 years of age I was learning about girls, but I guess you lot finished with girls at a younger age and moved on to the important stuff like quantum mechanics.

Who's to say I am not learning about girls?  I am doing that, but I just don't talk about it here.  If you must know I have been dating someone and as you might suspect the situation is horrifically complicated, but why can't I have a hobby?
I am having a video war with Jeranism.
See the thread about it here.

*

mikeman7918

  • 5431
  • +0/-0
  • Round Earther
Re: Explaining quantom mechanics to flat earthers
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2015, 04:27:21 PM »
*Bump*

Explaining quantum mechanics to people who can't comprehend classical mechanics is certainly hard, but I think even a flat earther could understand my explanation.  With all the talk recently about quantum mechanics I thought I would bring back this thread.
I am having a video war with Jeranism.
See the thread about it here.

*

JohnTitor

  • 308
  • +0/-0
Re: Explaining quantom mechanics to flat earthers
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2015, 04:44:01 PM »
A quick caveat, as the addition of knowledge from the future might help this. What you term the uncertainty principle may be true only in limited dimensions. One of the reasons, beyond technological limitation, for it is the fact that at the quantum level, particles get closer and closer to not existing in the dimensions you're observing. They have a velocity, or a position, but those are dteermines by behavior in higher dimensions: you can learn one, but in doing so you erase its other trait from the dimension you're observing.
Theoretically, if it were possible to observer all twenty six dimensions, you might be able to get a far more accurate reading on both position and velocity, though there is still debate in my time as to what the likely error would be. Uncertainty may still hold, it's far from certain, but there is one possible loophole.
Quantum theory, as it stands in your time, is half a theory. It's direct observations made in lower dimensions, with very little focus on reconciliation or on why what you observe happens. It's how all theories start, but several aspects are wrong, because dimensional laws aren't taken into account.

*

mikeman7918

  • 5431
  • +0/-0
  • Round Earther
Re: Explaining quantom mechanics to flat earthers
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2015, 05:33:26 PM »
A quick caveat, as the addition of knowledge from the future might help this. What you term the uncertainty principle may be true only in limited dimensions. One of the reasons, beyond technological limitation, for it is the fact that at the quantum level, particles get closer and closer to not existing in the dimensions you're observing. They have a velocity, or a position, but those are dteermines by behavior in higher dimensions: you can learn one, but in doing so you erase its other trait from the dimension you're observing.
Theoretically, if it were possible to observer all twenty six dimensions, you might be able to get a far more accurate reading on both position and velocity, though there is still debate in my time as to what the likely error would be. Uncertainty may still hold, it's far from certain, but there is one possible loophole.
Quantum theory, as it stands in your time, is half a theory. It's direct observations made in lower dimensions, with very little focus on reconciliation or on why what you observe happens. It's how all theories start, but several aspects are wrong, because dimensional laws aren't taken into account.

You are just flat out contradicting quantum theory.

This is Heisenberg's uncertainty principal:
  [nb]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle[/nb]

you cannot know everything about a particle's position or velocity because there would be no solution to the uncertainty relation because of the zero multiplicative property.
I am having a video war with Jeranism.
See the thread about it here.

*

JohnTitor

  • 308
  • +0/-0
Re: Explaining quantom mechanics to flat earthers
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2015, 12:26:24 AM »
you cannot know everything about a particle's position or velocity because there would be no solution to the uncertainty relation because of the zero multiplicative property.

Which is true: in the only dimensions we can measure, and the only ones that could have been taken into account in this time. I think that formula still relies on the Planck system: a value that only makes sense over three spatial dimensions.
My knowledge of Planck isn't perfect, but I think it relates to the smallest thing that can meaningfully exist; I could be completely wrong, he's outdated in my time. However, as I've said before, the smallest thing that can exist would have quantum mass over all dimensions: Planck is only concerned with three.

*

mikeman7918

  • 5431
  • +0/-0
  • Round Earther
Re: Explaining quantom mechanics to flat earthers
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2015, 10:22:41 AM »
My knowledge of Planck isn't perfect, but I think it relates to the smallest thing that can meaningfully exist; I could be completely wrong, he's outdated in my time. However, as I've said before, the smallest thing that can exist would have quantum mass over all dimensions: Planck is only concerned with three.

You (understandably) got Planck's constant mixed up with the Plank length.  The Planck length is the smallest thing we could measure if string theory turned out to be correct and Planck's constant is the relation between the wavelength and the energy of a particle like a photon.  Max Planck was actually a string theorist so he assumed that there were 7 more curled up dimensions to calculate things like Planck length.  Planck's constant is actually known via measurement, so there is no doubt that it is what it is.
I am having a video war with Jeranism.
See the thread about it here.

*

JohnTitor

  • 308
  • +0/-0
Re: Explaining quantom mechanics to flat earthers
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2015, 11:15:43 AM »
You (understandably) got Planck's constant mixed up with the Plank length.  The Planck length is the smallest thing we could measure if string theory turned out to be correct and Planck's constant is the relation between the wavelength and the energy of a particle like a photon.  Max Planck was actually a string theorist so he assumed that there were 7 more curled up dimensions to calculate things like Planck length.  Planck's constant is actually known via measurement, so there is no doubt that it is what it is.

Thank you for the correction; there is little discussion of Planck in my time. Even his string theory model sounds outdated (the Planck length may have lead to the quantum mass however, I'm not sure. Mass is more important than length when it comes to existence; mass is actually the definition of existence).
Recall that particles exist in more than just our three dimensions, however: the energy of a photon is more than what you can directly measure (in this time). Your result is still limited to three dimensions, where I never questioned it. Why would the Planck constant, as you describe it, hold over dimensions where the energy has not been taken.

In my time there is a study of what's called Yoneya Rotation (after Tamiaki Yoneya, I don't know if he's known at the moment) which measures properties of quantum objects over multiple dimensions by setting up a torque and 'twisting', and reflections of properties of higher dimensions could be read.
Do you know of anything similar to that? String theory seems like it's very primitive in this time, but I don't know.

*

mikeman7918

  • 5431
  • +0/-0
  • Round Earther
Re: Explaining quantom mechanics to flat earthers
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2015, 12:31:40 PM »
You (understandably) got Planck's constant mixed up with the Plank length.  The Planck length is the smallest thing we could measure if string theory turned out to be correct and Planck's constant is the relation between the wavelength and the energy of a particle like a photon.  Max Planck was actually a string theorist so he assumed that there were 7 more curled up dimensions to calculate things like Planck length.  Planck's constant is actually known via measurement, so there is no doubt that it is what it is.

Thank you for the correction; there is little discussion of Planck in my time. Even his string theory model sounds outdated (the Planck length may have lead to the quantum mass however, I'm not sure. Mass is more important than length when it comes to existence; mass is actually the definition of existence).
Recall that particles exist in more than just our three dimensions, however: the energy of a photon is more than what you can directly measure (in this time). Your result is still limited to three dimensions, where I never questioned it. Why would the Planck constant, as you describe it, hold over dimensions where the energy has not been taken.

In my time there is a study of what's called Yoneya Rotation (after Tamiaki Yoneya, I don't know if he's known at the moment) which measures properties of quantum objects over multiple dimensions by setting up a torque and 'twisting', and reflections of properties of higher dimensions could be read.
Do you know of anything similar to that? String theory seems like it's very primitive in this time, but I don't know.

I think you might be thinking of the Planck mass, which is about as heavy as a grain of sand (pretty ridiculous in the quantum scale) and it's reduced to the observed particle masses via relativistic effects.  It's hard to say how primitive string theory is because nobody really knows what all there is to it, but the math behind it is mostly incomplete and mostly just approximations.  String theory is yet to be proven, but it certainly looks promising.

In string theory particle properties are determined by the vibration patterns of strings and the possible vibration patterns are governed by the shape of the extra dimensions.  Position in extra dimensions causing properties is not even being considered and if it's the case then it would mean that string theory is false.
I am having a video war with Jeranism.
See the thread about it here.

*

JohnTitor

  • 308
  • +0/-0
Re: Explaining quantom mechanics to flat earthers
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2015, 01:44:06 PM »
I think you might be thinking of the Planck mass, which is about as heavy as a grain of sand (pretty ridiculous in the quantum scale) and it's reduced to the observed particle masses via relativistic effects.  It's hard to say how primitive string theory is because nobody really knows what all there is to it, but the math behind it is mostly incomplete and mostly just approximations.  String theory is yet to be proven, but it certainly looks promising.
Quantum mass is certainly not related to Planck mass in that case, there are many lighter things than a grain of sand. Think of it as the mass of a photon: I know you don't believe photons have mass, but that should be an indication of how small the mass is.
I can promise you, from all I've heard your string theory is very primitive. Much of the maths behind it relies on too many assumptions, many of which false. i suspect the calculations are, broadly speaking, correct, and once assumptions are corrected for, the truth should be arrived at. I'm not certain, but I think one of the major results came from the realization that what you call the Higgs field is synonymous with a spatial dimension: to exist in space is to have mass.

Quote
In string theory particle properties are determined by the vibration patterns of strings and the possible vibration patterns are governed by the shape of the extra dimensions.  Position in extra dimensions causing properties is not even being considered and if it's the case then it would mean that string theory is false.
It's not the position in those dimensions that matters, it's the mass or shape of the particle in those dimensions that is important. This could be viewed as the shape of the related dimensions, from our lower dimensional perspective: from our perspective those dimensions would not exist except for the 'curled' portion directly related to an observed object.
All objects exist in all dimensions, properties determined by their behavior and mass and design in each of those dimensions. (On a side note, this is also tied to dark matter: the gravitational pull on a large scale comes from matter that exists in higher dimensions. This is also how my time machine works: a resonance, similar to Yoneya rotation, pushes an object in a direction: if done properly, this direction is the time dimension).

If our world was a flat plane, it wouldn't exist. Everything must have depth: an atom, for example, would not exist, and by observation we can see it is highly unlikely a 2-D analogue exists: or, if it does, it could not exist in three dimensional space. Similarly, there are twenty six dimensions total, not three: so actually everything expands into those other dimensions, even if we don't see it.
That's flawed as a justification, but I hope it explains the idea.

Re: Explaining quantom mechanics to flat earthers
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2015, 10:06:38 PM »
Perhaps he just really likes spending his time learning about things and how stuff works; basically the opposite to most flat earthers.....

At 17 years of age I was learning about girls, but I guess you lot finished with girls at a younger age and moved on to the important stuff like quantum mechanics.

I managed to learn about astronomy and physics and have 5 kids - girls and science aren't mutually exclusive. (And especially not when you date a fellow astronomy major...)