who needs a theory anyway?

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brutal delux

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who needs a theory anyway?
« on: July 11, 2015, 10:24:56 AM »
When it comes to the concept of a flat earth i'm just learning to walk, i do not know the flat earth theory that explains how it all works but having trusted the earth was round for nearly all my life  without relying on what i would now consider to be sufficient proof i no longer consider a good theory to be the all its cracked up to be, preferring instead to trust in the evidence and follow it where ever it leads, my point is does flat earth need a theory that explains how it all works exactly to be accepted as a fact when there is already sufficient evidence that it really is flat and despite not having a theory as widely accepted as another theory that has a 500 year head start and unlimited resources committed to kicking the "burden of proof " can down the road far enough for one generation at a time to settle for just the theory until inter planetary travel is available to all and finally settle the debate for good.

  i think debating the other side is futile as the "how does that work" question sets a trap where you are forced to explain something that makes no sense until you look at the supporting evidence to people who cannot distinguish between fact and theory, time spent debating  only other flat earthers could ultimately bring about the only theory without flaws but flat earthers are so hopelessly outnumbered by a noisy and opposition armed with copy and paste that it will be hard to make the theory heard and therefore appreciated. i think that the greatest asset for the flat earth is irrefutable supporting evidence and if enough irrefutable physical evidence alone keeps piling up, people will be forced to accept it as truth and even if it no has a plausible explanation/theory anyone smart enough to be swayed by the body of evidence will get involved in working on the flat earth theory and slowly transfer resources from the opposing theory to this one. It makes sense to me but it is just a theory.
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Rayzor

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2015, 10:39:35 AM »
When it comes to the concept of a flat earth i'm just learning to walk, i do not know the flat earth theory that explains how it all works but having trusted the earth was round for nearly all my life  without relying on what i would now consider to be sufficient proof i no longer consider a good theory to be the all its cracked up to be, preferring instead to trust in the evidence and follow it where ever it leads, my point is does flat earth need a theory that explains how it all works exactly to be accepted as a fact when there is already sufficient evidence that it really is flat and despite not having a theory as widely accepted as another theory that has a 500 year head start and unlimited resources committed to kicking the "burden of proof " can down the road far enough for one generation at a time to settle for just the theory until inter planetary travel is available to all and finally settle the debate for good.

  i think debating the other side is futile as the "how does that work" question sets a trap where you are forced to explain something that makes no sense until you look at the supporting evidence to people who cannot distinguish between fact and theory, time spent debating  only other flat earthers could ultimately bring about the only theory without flaws but flat earthers are so hopelessly outnumbered by a noisy and opposition armed with copy and paste that it will be hard to make the theory heard and therefore appreciated. i think that the greatest asset for the flat earth is irrefutable supporting evidence and if enough irrefutable physical evidence alone keeps piling up, people will be forced to accept it as truth and even if it no has a plausible explanation/theory anyone smart enough to be swayed by the body of evidence will get involved in working on the flat earth theory and slowly transfer resources from the opposing theory to this one. It makes sense to me but it is just a theory.

How about you cough up one example of "irrefutable physical evidence".
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robintex

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2015, 10:47:50 AM »
How about a map for a start ?
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brutal delux

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2015, 11:00:43 AM »
My nephew has a working model and a photograph of Thomas the Tank Engine, would you accept this as proof that Thomas the tank engine is real?
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Rayzor

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2015, 11:05:27 AM »
My nephew has a working model and a photograph of Thomas the Tank Engine, would you accept this as proof that Thomas the tank engine is real?

Sure.
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Mikey T.

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2015, 11:12:06 AM »
well you would have more evidence than the flat Earth does.

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Misero

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2015, 11:44:22 AM »
"Working Model" would mean that there would be an explanation on how a machine has attained sentience, so yes, I would believe it is real.
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hoyhoy5

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2015, 11:54:59 AM »
When it comes to the concept of a flat earth i'm just learning to walk, i do not know the flat earth theory that explains how it all works but having trusted the earth was round for nearly all my life  without relying on what i would now consider to be sufficient proof i no longer consider a good theory to be the all its cracked up to be, preferring instead to trust in the evidence and follow it where ever it leads, my point is does flat earth need a theory that explains how it all works exactly to be accepted as a fact when there is already sufficient evidence that it really is flat and despite not having a theory as widely accepted as another theory that has a 500 year head start and unlimited resources committed to kicking the "burden of proof " can down the road far enough for one generation at a time to settle for just the theory until inter planetary travel is available to all and finally settle the debate for good.

  i think debating the other side is futile as the "how does that work" question sets a trap where you are forced to explain something that makes no sense until you look at the supporting evidence to people who cannot distinguish between fact and theory, time spent debating  only other flat earthers could ultimately bring about the only theory without flaws but flat earthers are so hopelessly outnumbered by a noisy and opposition armed with copy and paste that it will be hard to make the theory heard and therefore appreciated. i think that the greatest asset for the flat earth is irrefutable supporting evidence and if enough irrefutable physical evidence alone keeps piling up, people will be forced to accept it as truth and even if it no has a plausible explanation/theory anyone smart enough to be swayed by the body of evidence will get involved in working on the flat earth theory and slowly transfer resources from the opposing theory to this one. It makes sense to me but it is just a theory.

An unifying theory is needed because otherwise you are oeaving some pretty important phenomenon apart, where the "fact" that the Earth is flat implies in a lot of other subjects that need explaining, such as gravity, the stars, space travel, horizon, and more.

You can't leave any of that behind because then you would be scientifically partial.
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Alpha2Omega

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2015, 12:00:22 PM »
I edited the quoted text below so it could be read. Is this still what you meant to say?

When it comes to the concept of a flat earth I'm just learning to walk. I do not know the flat earth theory that explains how it all works, but having trusted the earth was round for nearly all my life without relying on what I would now consider to be sufficient proof, I no longer consider [it] a good theory [or] to be the all it's cracked up to be, preferring instead to trust in the evidence and follow it where ever it leads.

My point is, does flat earth need a theory that explains how it all works exactly to be accepted as a fact, when there is already sufficient evidence that it really is flat and despite not having a theory as widely accepted as another theory that has a 500 year head start and unlimited resources committed to kicking the "burden of proof " can down the road far enough for one generation at a time to settle for just the theory until inter planetary travel is available to all and finally settle the debate for good?

I think debating the other side is futile, as the "how does that work" question sets a trap where you are forced to explain something that makes no sense until you look at the supporting evidence to people who cannot distinguish between fact and theory. Time spent debating only other flat earthers could ultimately bring about the only theory without flaws, but flat earthers are so hopelessly outnumbered by a noisy and opposition armed with copy and paste that it will be hard to make the theory heard and therefore appreciated. I think that the greatest asset for the flat earth is irrefutable supporting evidence and if enough irrefutable physical evidence alone keeps piling up, people will be forced to accept it as truth. andEven if it no has [doesn't have] a plausible explanation/theory, anyone smart enough to be swayed by the body of evidence will get involved in working on the flat earth theory and slowly transfer resources from the opposing theory to this one. It makes sense to me but it is just a theory.

Anyway...

"sufficient evidence that it really is flat" Can you provide some of this evidence? I've never seen any.

"I think that the greatest asset for the flat earth is irrefutable supporting evidence" This would be absolutely true if any "irrefutable supporting evidence" actually existed. Your problem is that there is no evidence, irrefutable or otherwise. If you think you have some, then, by all means, pony it up!

"How does that work?" is a trap? This may be your problem; you just want to discard any irrefutable evidence that is inconsistent with your model and run with only the evidence that supports your model only (if such even exists, which, so far, none has been presented). If you're starting with the premise that the Earth is flat, then that's your working hypothesis, or model. If observations aren't consistent with your model (sunsets, to pick just one common example), and you can't explain them, then why do you think your model is better than the one that can explain them?

Your only chance to "bring about the only theory without flaws" is to let people challenge it and find its flaws, so it can be improved. It certainly is easier to argue with someone who doesn't want to find any flaws in your theory, but it's not productive at all. Sorry. If that's what you really want to do, petition whoever decides these things for permission to post in the "believers only" forum.

Your "theory" is that the Earth is flat. Your problem isn't the absence of a theory, it's the absence of any unambiguous evidence in favor of that theory. If the Earth were flat, there would be plenty of that, but, since it's not, there is none.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Dog

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2015, 12:05:35 PM »
How about you cough up one example of "irrefutable physical evidence".

Hasn't happened yet, and it isn't going to happen now.

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brutal delux

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2015, 01:14:32 PM »
facts speak for themselves, they don't always agree with the theory but facts don't change over time, the round earth theory for the workings of the universe has been amended numerous times since its inception to correct parts that don't work as a deeper understanding of the theory along with a greater technological abilety to investigate the theory against observations of the universe exposes more flaws within the theory but no one wants to believe the globe could be the flaw in the theory much like when a criminals story changes every time he is confronted with more "evidence" that  contradicts his ever growing and mind boggling version of events as the investigation grows usually resulting in the only way to prove either way for sure resting entirely on  another mysterious witness who may or may not exist and as of yey has not been found who can  support his story or the criminal just accepting that the game is up, its a fair cop and yes he did it. similar to the case of the big bang theory  which underpins the globe earth theory relying  on the  mysterious "God" particle which may or may not exist being  the mysterious witness that as of yet has not been found to support the theory or accepting that the game is up, its a fair cop, the earth is flat. but again its just theory
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Alpha2Omega

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2015, 01:46:59 PM »
facts speak for themselves, they don't always agree with the theory but facts don't change over time, the round earth theory for the workings of the universe has been amended numerous times since its inception to correct parts that don't work as a deeper understanding of the theory along with a greater technological abilety to investigate the theory against observations of the universe exposes more flaws within the theory but no one wants to believe the globe could be the flaw in the theory much like when a criminals story changes every time he is confronted with more "evidence" that  contradicts his ever growing and mind boggling version of events as the investigation grows usually resulting in the only way to prove either way for sure resting entirely on  another mysterious witness who may or may not exist and as of yey has not been found who can  support his story or the criminal just accepting that the game is up, its a fair cop and yes he did it. similar to the case of the big bang theory  which underpins the globe earth theory relying  on the  mysterious "God" particle which may or may not exist being  the mysterious witness that as of yet has not been found to support the theory or accepting that the game is up, its a fair cop, the earth is flat. but again its just theory

That was one loooooooong run-on sentence at the beginning there, hoss.

"Facts speak for themselves." If you really believe this, then why do you say the Earth is flat? Can you name even one "fact" that suggests the Earth must be flat and cannot be spherical? Your skepticism and prejudice don't count as facts.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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hoyhoy5

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2015, 01:48:28 PM »
facts speak for themselves, they don't always agree with the theory but facts don't change over time, the round earth theory for the workings of the universe has been amended numerous times since its inception to correct parts that don't work as a deeper understanding of the theory along with a greater technological abilety to investigate the theory against observations of the universe exposes more flaws within the theory but no one wants to believe the globe could be the flaw in the theory much like when a criminals story changes every time he is confronted with more "evidence" that  contradicts his ever growing and mind boggling version of events as the investigation grows usually resulting in the only way to prove either way for sure resting entirely on  another mysterious witness who may or may not exist and as of yey has not been found who can  support his story or the criminal just accepting that the game is up, its a fair cop and yes he did it. similar to the case of the big bang theory  which underpins the globe earth theory relying  on the  mysterious "God" particle which may or may not exist being  the mysterious witness that as of yet has not been found to support the theory or accepting that the game is up, its a fair cop, the earth is flat. but again its just theory

Yes, theories need changing along time to accomodate new evidence.

But the the earth will always stay round in these new theories because its already been proven round, and it being round is surely not the mistake in these theories.

(Edit: minor typo)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 02:12:14 PM by hoyhoy5 »
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Mikey T.

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2015, 02:06:35 PM »
Here, an easy fact.  The sun sets behind the horizon for a person observing from a set location.  Watching said sunset will show the sun disappear bottom first, not get smaller and smaller then disappear, or stay at the same size due to some bastardization of atmospheric refraction and then blinks out of sight due to being too far away to be seen.  It disappears bottom first.

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mikeman7918

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2015, 03:49:42 PM »
Fact: Sunsets happen and they are impossible on a flat Earth.  Look up at the sky and tell me with a strait face that Earth is flat.  I bet you can't do it.
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robintex

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2015, 06:50:15 PM »
The horizon itself is an easy way to prove the earth is not flat.Check into the flat earth and round earth details to see proof that the earth is a globe.
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

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And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

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Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

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Dog

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2015, 09:53:57 PM »
Fact: UA doesn't explain the inconsistencies of gravimetric surveys. Inconsistencies that a globe perfectly explain.

Fact: You can see the ISS orbiting. You can literally zoom in and see it detailed enough to know it's not a balloon or plane, and that it's moving insanely fast.

Fact: Coriolis effect is easily explained on a globe. On flat earth, many assumptions have to be made and hand waving is required to explain it.

Fact: Lunar eclipses are easily explained on a globe. You see where this is going....

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JimmyTheCrab

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2015, 02:41:50 AM »
My nephew has a working model and a photograph of Thomas the Tank Engine, would you accept this as proof that Thomas the tank engine is real?
A real toy, yeah.  I already accept that. 

Now come up with the same for a flat earth.
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Rayzor

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2015, 02:48:43 AM »
My nephew has a working model and a photograph of Thomas the Tank Engine, would you accept this as proof that Thomas the tank engine is real?
A real toy, yeah.  I already accept that. 

Now come up with the same for a flat earth.

NASA agents have stepped in and kidnapped the real Thomas ,  lest he be captured and tortured by flat earthers to reveal the secrets of the conspiracy.   



Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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V

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2015, 09:28:13 PM »
My nephew has a working model and a photograph of Thomas the Tank Engine, would you accept this as proof that Thomas the tank engine is real?
If the model functions correctly at 100 percent scale according to the known laws of physics, then yes.
Can you do the same for a model of the flat earth?
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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2015, 08:29:11 AM »
Fact: Sunsets happen and they are impossible on a flat Earth.  Look up at the sky and tell me with a strait face that Earth is flat.  I bet you can't do it.
How are sunsets impossible on a flat earth? The sun can still orbit the flat earth, and disappear beneath the flat earth horizon.
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JimmyTheCrab

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2015, 08:37:00 AM »
OK, I'll play with you.

There wouldn't be a horizon on a flat earth, just a limit on how far you could see due to atmospheric scattering  - which could be hundreds of kilometres away.

You might not have noticed, but it doesn't get dark everywhere on earth at once, so how can sun be orbiting to the "other side" of a flat earth?
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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2015, 09:05:32 AM »
All flat surfaces have a horizon. As for why different cities are dark at different times, some other flat earthers could explain it better than I could.
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Master_Evar

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2015, 09:19:01 AM »
All flat surfaces have a horizon. As for why different cities are dark at different times, some other flat earthers could explain it better than I could.

And according to FE:s, the sun always stays above the earth and never go below it.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

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mikeman7918

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2015, 10:57:28 AM »
How are sunsets impossible on a flat earth? The sun can still orbit the flat earth, and disappear beneath the flat earth horizon.

In case you forgot, sunsets look like this:



The Sun clearly goes below the horizon, yet because of time zones we know that the Sun is high in the sky somewhere else in the world.  The Sun also stays the same apparent size throughout the day, which makes no sense at all of the Sun's distance were really changing that much.  It's also possible for the Sun to rise and set slightly south and north of where it usually rises and sets depending on the time of year, imagine that on a flat Earth map where the Sun would be north-east of you at the time of Sunrise and north-west of you at the the of sunset, i ways that are never observed.

At night I can't see the Sun even though flat Earth "theory" states that it should still be within my line of sight.
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josan

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2015, 12:39:11 PM »
When it comes to the concept of a flat earth i'm just learning to walk, i do not know the flat earth theory that explains how it all works but having trusted the earth was round for nearly all my life  without relying on what i would now consider to be sufficient proof i no longer consider a good theory to be the all its cracked up to be, preferring instead to trust in the evidence and follow it where ever it leads, my point is does flat earth need a theory that explains how it all works exactly to be accepted as a fact when there is already sufficient evidence that it really is flat and despite not having a theory as widely accepted as another theory that has a 500 year head start and unlimited resources committed to kicking the "burden of proof " can down the road far enough for one generation at a time to settle for just the theory until inter planetary travel is available to all and finally settle the debate for good.

  i think debating the other side is futile as the "how does that work" question sets a trap where you are forced to explain something that makes no sense until you look at the supporting evidence to people who cannot distinguish between fact and theory, time spent debating  only other flat earthers could ultimately bring about the only theory without flaws but flat earthers are so hopelessly outnumbered by a noisy and opposition armed with copy and paste that it will be hard to make the theory heard and therefore appreciated. i think that the greatest asset for the flat earth is irrefutable supporting evidence and if enough irrefutable physical evidence alone keeps piling up, people will be forced to accept it as truth and even if it no has a plausible explanation/theory anyone smart enough to be swayed by the body of evidence will get involved in working on the flat earth theory and slowly transfer resources from the opposing theory to this one. It makes sense to me but it is just a theory.

Why dont you state any "irrefutable physical evidence" that you are aware of, then we can have a discussion. If you post a wall of  text from time to time then the thread goes nowhere. So state any "irrefutable physical evidence" in a simple list and then it can be discussed.

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JimmyTheCrab

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2015, 12:47:01 PM »
All flat surfaces have a horizon.
A limit of visibility yes, though on a flat earth it would be nothing like the sharp clearly defined one we get on a globe.

Quote
As for why different cities are dark at different times, some other flat earthers could explain it better than I could.
They just say the sun moves away from you until it gets too small to see.  Clearly this disregards reality.  So no, they can't explain it any better, though their arguments are well rehearsed.  Anyway, the "proper" flat earthers have pretty much all fucked off, so you better start standing on your own two feet now.  Common, you're a big boy.   :-*
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a single photon can pass through two sluts

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if Donald Trump stuck his penis in me after trying on clothes I would have that date and time burned in my head.

Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2015, 01:34:53 PM »
All flat surfaces have a horizon.
A limit of visibility yes, though on a flat earth it would be nothing like the sharp clearly defined one we get on a globe.

Quote
Why would a horizon line on a flat earth be less sharp? It would be even more sharp than the horizon line on a globe.

Boxes and flat planes, are sharper than spheres.
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The Ellimist

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2015, 02:47:53 PM »
All flat surfaces have a horizon.
A limit of visibility yes, though on a flat earth it would be nothing like the sharp clearly defined one we get on a globe.


Why would a horizon line on a flat earth be less sharp? It would be even more sharp than the horizon line on a globe.

Boxes and flat planes, are sharper than spheres.

-20/10, not even funny. Go back to the forum you came from.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 03:38:16 PM by The Ellimist »
Additionally, we cannot entirely rule out the nefarious effects of demons, spirits, gnomes, and wizards on our society's ability to comprehend our flat earth as it really is. 

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mikeman7918

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Re: who needs a theory anyway?
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2015, 03:33:53 PM »
Why would a horizon line on a flat earth be less sharp? It would be even more sharp than the horizon line on a globe.

Boxes and flat planes, are sharper than spheres.

I can't see Mount Everest from my house.  The only way to explain this on a flat Earth is that light get's blocked by the air, and that would cause the horizon to be more of a blur.  Unless you think that I actually can see mount Everest from my house, in which case you should look for Everest yourself on the horizon.
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