Why the Lie?

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on July 09, 2015, 09:09:10 AM

Quote from: jroa on July 09, 2015, 09:06:04 AM

Quote from: hoyhoy5 on July 09, 2015, 07:58:37 AM

Quote from: jroa on July 09, 2015, 07:24:52 AM

What jet airplane flus high enough for you or I to see the curvature of the Earth?  Sounds like you roundies are trying to pass misinformation off as facts again, like we can't see through the lies.

I see. The only argument you guys have is that it "does not look round, therefore must be flat". And when exactly did we pass misinformstion as a fact?

The poster right before me claimed that you can see the curvature of the Earth from a jet.  Any commercial pilot will tell you this is not true.

Given a sufficient FOV the curvature is measurable from a jet.

Measurable, or viewable?  Flopsinator claimed he could see curvature from a jet.  Quit trying to cover up his dishonesty.

It's viewable from 12000 meters height, that I can tell you.

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on July 09, 2015, 09:09:10 AM

Quote from: jroa on July 09, 2015, 09:06:04 AM

Quote from: hoyhoy5 on July 09, 2015, 07:58:37 AM

Quote from: jroa on July 09, 2015, 07:24:52 AM

What jet airplane flus high enough for you or I to see the curvature of the Earth?  Sounds like you roundies are trying to pass misinformation off as facts again, like we can't see through the lies.

I see. The only argument you guys have is that it "does not look round, therefore must be flat". And when exactly did we pass misinformstion as a fact?

The poster right before me claimed that you can see the curvature of the Earth from a jet.  Any commercial pilot will tell you this is not true.

Given a sufficient FOV the curvature is measurable from a jet.

Measurable, or viewable?  Flopsinator claimed he could see curvature from a jet.  Quit trying to cover up his dishonesty.

According to this paper the curvature of the earth can be seen from  as low as 20,000 feet.   http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf   I've never been convinced that it's easy to even see the horizon clearly because of the fuzziness.    When you get to a hundred miles up, the curvature is obvious.   If someone claims they can see curvature at 35,000 ft,   it's going to be very very slight.

I wouldn't call them dishonest however.

Quote from: jroa on July 09, 2015, 09:06:04 AM

Quote from: hoyhoy5 on July 09, 2015, 07:58:37 AM

Quote from: jroa on July 09, 2015, 07:24:52 AM

What jet airplane flus high enough for you or I to see the curvature of the Earth?  Sounds like you roundies are trying to pass misinformation off as facts again, like we can't see through the lies.

I see. The only argument you guys have is that it "does not look round, therefore must be flat". And when exactly did we pass misinformstion as a fact?

The poster right before me claimed that you can see the curvature of the Earth from a jet.  Any commercial pilot will tell you this is not true.  Next, you people will try to convince me that you can see the horizon curve at the beach or from the top of a mountain. 

You lose credibility when you blatantly lie.

You are connecting two different things, saying that "because one is a lie the other one must be too". That's not how it works. Crediblity lost has nothing to do with the validity of the information. And you CAN see the Horizon at a beach. How else would ships dissapear bottom first on a flat Earth? Optical illusion? Give me a break.

Ships disappear from the bottom up because of perspective.  Small swells in the ocean that are relatively close block your view of part of a ship that is much farther, and therefore smaller.

Ships disappear from the bottom up because of perspective.  Small swells in the ocean that are relatively close block your view of part of a ship that is much farther, and therefore smaller.

Not if the small swells are lower than your eye level. Swells (below eye level or not) don't stay at the same place, either, unlike the horizon.

If you disagree, can you provide a sketch showing what it is you're trying to say? You'll also need to explain why the horizon, if it's caused by these things, doesn't move.

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on July 09, 2015, 09:09:10 AM

Quote from: jroa on July 09, 2015, 09:06:04 AM

Quote from: hoyhoy5 on July 09, 2015, 07:58:37 AM

Quote from: jroa on July 09, 2015, 07:24:52 AM

What jet airplane flus high enough for you or I to see the curvature of the Earth?  Sounds like you roundies are trying to pass misinformation off as facts again, like we can't see through the lies.

I see. The only argument you guys have is that it "does not look round, therefore must be flat". And when exactly did we pass misinformstion as a fact?

The poster right before me claimed that you can see the curvature of the Earth from a jet.  Any commercial pilot will tell you this is not true.

Given a sufficient FOV the curvature is measurable from a jet.

Measurable, or viewable?

Both.

Quit trying to cover up his dishonesty.

Who's going to cover up yours?

Quote from: jroa on July 09, 2015, 09:38:56 AM

Ships disappear from the bottom up because of perspective.  Small swells in the ocean that are relatively close block your view of part of a ship that is much farther, and therefore smaller.

Not if the small swells are lower than your eye level. Swells (below eye level or not) don't stay at the same place, either, unlike the horizon.

If you disagree, can you provide a sketch showing what it is you're trying to say? You'll also need to explain why the horizon, if it's caused by these things, doesn't move.

It's the average of the swells, not a single swell.  And the horizon is always at eye level and far away things tend to meet the horizon, like swells and boats.  Is this an elementary perspective class?

Quote from: Alpha2Omega on July 09, 2015, 11:52:35 AM

Quote from: jroa on July 09, 2015, 09:38:56 AM

Ships disappear from the bottom up because of perspective.  Small swells in the ocean that are relatively close block your view of part of a ship that is much farther, and therefore smaller.

Not if the small swells are lower than your eye level. Swells (below eye level or not) don't stay at the same place, either, unlike the horizon.

If you disagree, can you provide a sketch showing what it is you're trying to say? You'll also need to explain why the horizon, if it's caused by these things, doesn't move.

It's the average of the swells, not a single swell.  And the horizon is always at eye level and far away things tend to meet the horizon, like swells and boats.  Is this an elementary perspective class?

Does your "elementary perspective" apply to an observation of a ship from another ship at sea lets say at a beaufort scale of zero ?

Quote from: Alpha2Omega on July 09, 2015, 11:52:35 AM

Quote from: jroa on July 09, 2015, 09:38:56 AM

Ships disappear from the bottom up because of perspective.  Small swells in the ocean that are relatively close block your view of part of a ship that is much farther, and therefore smaller.

Not if the small swells are lower than your eye level. Swells (below eye level or not) don't stay at the same place, either, unlike the horizon.

If you disagree, can you provide a sketch showing what it is you're trying to say? You'll also need to explain why the horizon, if it's caused by these things, doesn't move.

It's the average of the swells, not a single swell.  And the horizon is always at eye level and far away things tend to meet the horizon, like swells and boats.  Is this an elementary perspective class?

Maybe it needs to be. Can you draw a sketch showing how you think swells, or "the average of the swells", whatever that means, can behave as you claim they do?

Are these swells, or "the average of the swells", whatever that means, near or far away? Earlier you said they were "relatively close", now they're "far away". Which is it?

Here it is:

Ships disappear from the bottom up because of perspective.  Small swells in the ocean that are relatively close block your view of part of a ship that is much farther, and therefore smaller.

A relatively close swell that's below your eye level is going to appear to cover the deck and superstructure of a ship that's above your eye level if the ship is far away on a flat earth? A picture would help because I just don't get what you're saying. Please illustrate what you mean by "the average of the swells" and why it would never move, too, in either the same figure or a different one, whichever is easier. Thanks!

*Waits for a semantic-driven derailment and/or avoiding the question at hand by jroa*

Let's see a diagram, jroa. No more handwaving or semantics, just show us the goods. If this is so elementary, as you put it, it shouldn't be hard to sketch, right?

And please, no excuses about not having the time to do it. If you have time to post, you have time to draw a sub-5 minute sketch in paint.

Is it just me or can they not come up with a reason as to why the evil government would cover up the earth;
or how they ever would manage it financially;
or how ships always disappear bottom first.

Either that or everybody has forgotten that this post exists and i am the last one to reply to this.

Why do you people need a diagram?  Are you having a problem visualizing a big far away object being blocked from sight by a closer smaller object?  Hold your thumb up and close one eye.  You will simply be amazed at what your little thumb can block from your field of view.  Mine can block my neighbors entire car.

I feel like I am teaching a perspective class to a bunch of 1st graders. 

Why do you people need a diagram?  Are you having a problem visualizing a big far away object being blocked from sight by a closer smaller object?  Hold your thumb up and close one eye.  You will simply be amazed at what your little thumb can block from your field of view.  Mine can block my neighbors entire car.

I feel like I am teaching a perspective class to a bunch of 1st graders. 

Wrong. If you actually see any video of a ship going below the Horizon line, you will notice that it goes over the Horizon at a bigger rate than it gets smaller. I will link you to a video. Notice how the ship, having gone past the horizon, would still have a size big enough not to be blocked by the small dips in the water. Yet, it is blocked by something, I wonder what 

#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">! No longer available

Are you saying there are no closer swells in front of that ship?

Why do you people need a diagram?  Are you having a problem visualizing a big far away object being blocked from sight by a closer smaller object?  Hold your thumb up and close one eye.  You will simply be amazed at what your little thumb can block from your field of view.  Mine can block my neighbors entire car.

I feel like I am teaching a perspective class to a bunch of 1st graders. 

I'd like the diagram because I can't visualize how a nearby object below eye level is going to block any part of a far-away object that is at or above eye level.

Are you saying there are no closer swells in front of that ship?

I'm saying that these swells are negligibe to how the ship disappears bottom first. In your hypothesis, the ship is blocked bottom first due to these swells. But your hypothesis depends on the ship getting smaller in reference to those swells. In fact, the ship gets smaller as it approaches the horizon line. But it is still big enough relative to these swells, so that if it were blocked bottom first solely due to the swells, it would have to be a lot smallee than it is shown in the video, implying that the horizon line would be much farther.

So are we back on the perspective argument concerning the swells again.  I seem to remember another thread that even jroa's diagram provided showed that no swell on a flat Earth would cover something taller than you from a perspective point higher than the swell. 
Meaning, if you are standing at 21 meters height, looking at something 150 meters tall with a swell of 20 meters high in between you and the 100 meter object could possibly block your view. 
So unless the swell is taller than your vantage point during he observation, it cannot block something taller than it.
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=63369.80#.VaFPvl9VhHw
But jroa claimed victory after saying the human eye could not distinguish the small amount that the swell could not block.  Afterwards, though he did not respond to my explanation on how waves work, I did show how a reported 20 meter swell would only be 10 meters above the shoreline and 10 meters below it.  Kind of how waves work if there is water deep enough for the trough, otherwise the top of the wave will crest as it becomes unstable.

So are we back on the perspective argument concerning the swells again.  I seem to remember another thread that even jroa's diagram provided showed that no swell on a flat Earth would cover something taller than you from a perspective point higher than the swell. 
Meaning, if you are standing at 21 meters height, looking at something 150 meters tall with a swell of 20 meters high in between you and the 100 meter object could possibly block your view. 
So unless the swell is taller than your vantage point during he observation, it cannot block something taller than it.
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=63369.80#.VaFPvl9VhHw
But jroa claimed victory after saying the human eye could not distinguish the small amount that the swell could not block.  Afterwards, though he did not respond to my explanation on how waves work, I did show how a reported 20 meter swell would only be 10 meters above the shoreline and 10 meters below it.  Kind of how waves work if there is water deep enough for the trough, otherwise the top of the wave will crest as it becomes unstable.

If you are remembering what I think you are, then my diagram actually proved my side. 

Quote from: Mikey T. on July 11, 2015, 10:55:13 AM

So are we back on the perspective argument concerning the swells again.  I seem to remember another thread that even jroa's diagram provided showed that no swell on a flat Earth would cover something taller than you from a perspective point higher than the swell. 
Meaning, if you are standing at 21 meters height, looking at something 150 meters tall with a swell of 20 meters high in between you and the 100 meter object could possibly block your view. 
So unless the swell is taller than your vantage point during he observation, it cannot block something taller than it.
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=63369.80#.VaFPvl9VhHw
But jroa claimed victory after saying the human eye could not distinguish the small amount that the swell could not block.  Afterwards, though he did not respond to my explanation on how waves work, I did show how a reported 20 meter swell would only be 10 meters above the shoreline and 10 meters below it.  Kind of how waves work if there is water deep enough for the trough, otherwise the top of the wave will crest as it becomes unstable.

If you are remembering what I think you are, then my diagram actually proved my side.

No, because it doesn't explain why objects disappear bortom first the further away they travel along the same sea level, it only explains how objects obscure objects at ANY distance, not exclusively at longer distances.

Nope, I re read the surrounding posts and you even admitted that it would not have obscured the far object completely.  Your claim to victory was that the difference was so small that the human eye couldn't detect it, yet you were called out on that too but never responded. 
If you vantage point is above the object  that may obstruct your view of t=something farther away, and the farther away object is larger than both of you, then the farther away object would not be blocked.

Quote from: jroa on July 11, 2015, 04:54:42 AM

Why do you people need a diagram?  Are you having a problem visualizing a big far away object being blocked from sight by a closer smaller object?  Hold your thumb up and close one eye.  You will simply be amazed at what your little thumb can block from your field of view.  Mine can block my neighbors entire car.

I feel like I am teaching a perspective class to a bunch of 1st graders. 

I'd like the diagram because I can't visualize how a nearby object below eye level is going to block any part of a far-away object that is at or above eye level.

No diagram yet?

Same reason the Illuminati does anything. For its entertainment.

They are laughing at you right now, you Round Earth fools.

Same reason the Illuminati made the world believe in Einstein, even though his Special Relativity was rubbish.

So he could build them bombs.

They want you to believe in a round earth, to drive a wedge between the Europe, Russia and the Americas. Round earthers are less united. They are not all on the same plane. And so far, its working. Russia and America's cold wars. Europeans disdain for Americas on Youtube. The list goes on.

Same reason the Illuminati does anything. For its entertainment.

They are laughing at you right now, you Round Earth fools.

Same reason the Illuminati made the world believe in Einstein, even though his Special Relativity was rubbish.

So he could build them bombs.

They want you to believe in a round earth, to drive a wedge between the Europe, Russia and the Americas. Round earthers are less united. They are not all on the same plane. And so far, its working. Russia and America's cold wars. Europeans disdain for Americas on Youtube. The list goes on.

Illuminati is a joke, and that part about being less United... Tell me about how "United" people were before they knew that the earth was round.

You dont get it do you. Humans have never been united, and the Illuminati wants to keep it that way.

The only way the Illuminati wants them united, is a one world UN government forcing them to do things.

Quote from: GreatandWiseTrixie on July 12, 2015, 11:06:24 AM

Same reason the Illuminati does anything. For its entertainment.

They are laughing at you right now, you Round Earth fools.

Same reason the Illuminati made the world believe in Einstein, even though his Special Relativity was rubbish.

So he could build them bombs.

They want you to believe in a round earth, to drive a wedge between the Europe, Russia and the Americas. Round earthers are less united. They are not all on the same plane. And so far, its working. Russia and America's cold wars. Europeans disdain for Americas on Youtube. The list goes on.

Illuminati is a joke, and that part about being less United... Tell me about how "United" people were before they knew that the earth was round.

Tell me how united flat earther's are, that dosen't even have a generally accepted anything, except flat earth.

Why do you people need a diagram?  Are you having a problem visualizing a big far away object being blocked from sight by a closer smaller object?  Hold your thumb up and close one eye.  You will simply be amazed at what your little thumb can block from your field of view.  Mine can block my neighbors entire car.

I feel like I am teaching a perspective class to a bunch of 1st graders. 

Yes Jroa, but the swells are below your eye level. Try putting your thumb on the floor and seeing what you can cover. Or better yet, set a box down below eye level.  Does it cover up your neighbors' car then? No! It just doesn't work for the same reason I can still see my neighbors' trees even though there's a 5 foot fence in the way

Quote from: jroa on July 11, 2015, 04:54:42 AM

Why do you people need a diagram?  Are you having a problem visualizing a big far away object being blocked from sight by a closer smaller object?  Hold your thumb up and close one eye.  You will simply be amazed at what your little thumb can block from your field of view.  Mine can block my neighbors entire car.

I feel like I am teaching a perspective class to a bunch of 1st graders. 

Yes Jroa, but the swells are below your eye level. Try putting your thumb on the floor and seeing what you can cover. Or better yet, set a box down below eye level.  Does it cover up your neighbors' car then? No! It just doesn't work for the same reason I can still see my neighbors' trees even though there's a 5 foot fence in the way

When observing the ocean from a beach, there are swells all the way up to eye level.  Please, try harder to troll. 

Quote from: RoundEarthFact on July 14, 2015, 12:24:12 AM

Quote from: jroa on July 11, 2015, 04:54:42 AM

Why do you people need a diagram?  Are you having a problem visualizing a big far away object being blocked from sight by a closer smaller object?  Hold your thumb up and close one eye.  You will simply be amazed at what your little thumb can block from your field of view.  Mine can block my neighbors entire car.

I feel like I am teaching a perspective class to a bunch of 1st graders. 

Yes Jroa, but the swells are below your eye level. Try putting your thumb on the floor and seeing what you can cover. Or better yet, set a box down below eye level.  Does it cover up your neighbors' car then? No! It just doesn't work for the same reason I can still see my neighbors' trees even though there's a 5 foot fence in the way

When observing the ocean from a beach, there are swells all the way up to eye level. 

Ships disappear from the bottom up because of perspective.  Small swells in the ocean that are relatively close block your view of part of a ship that is much farther, and therefore smaller.

Small swells, remember?

Your post, quoted here was immediately followed by a clarification of "small".

Not if the small swells are lower than your eye level. Swells (below eye level or not) don't stay at the same place, either, unlike the horizon.

If you disagree, can you provide a sketch showing what it is you're trying to say? You'll also need to explain why the horizon, if it's caused by these things, doesn't move.

Are the swells at sea going to adjust for your eye level? How would they know? What if you're standing next to someone taller or shorter?

Also, there was no requirement for the observer to be standing on a beach.

Did you discover this flaw with your argument when you tried to draw the illustration of perspective? That was the idea.

Still nothing on why the distant horizon doesn't move, either.

Please, try harder to troll. 

You're a moderator on this forum and you're requesting people to troll? We know you engage in it yourself - it's about your only form of argument - but, really?

No wonder attempts at discussion are such a disaster here.

"Troll harder" is not a request; it is a statement, or an accusation.  Is this you first time on the interwebs? 

"Troll harder" is not a request; it is a statement, or an accusation.  Is this you first time on the interwebs?

It's stated as a request, therefore it can and should be treated as a request. If you're acting as moderator, then it seems that saying, "stop trolling", "trolling is against the T&C" or some such that actually explicitly says what you mean would be more appropriate than explicitly saying the exact opposite and making users guess what you "really" mean. This is meant as an observation, not a dispute, in case that's not clear to you.

Where's your drawing showing how an ocean swell lower than your eye level can cover a ship that is higher than your eye level due to perspective? I didn't think it's ready for public display yet, is it? Do you have any idea when it will be ready? 

Ladies please , no cat fighting you might break a nail.

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