Nothing that keeps us on the ground.

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Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« on: July 06, 2015, 11:39:36 AM »
What exactly keeps us on the ground without gravity? What force keeps us from flying in to space and beyond when we jump?

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hoyhoy5

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Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2015, 08:14:18 PM »
What exactly keeps us on the ground without gravity? What force keeps us from flying in to space and beyond when we jump?

Those are two entirely different questions.
To the first one: I guess that, excluding gravity, one of the only forces that would be acting upon us would be air pressure. But not only is it relatively negligibe compared to gravity, but air pressure depends on gravity to exist.

To the second one: gravity is what keeps us from jumping and flying to outer space.
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Rayzor

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Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2015, 08:24:17 PM »
What exactly keeps us on the ground without gravity? What force keeps us from flying in to space and beyond when we jump?

Well,  seeing as there are no flat earthers around prepared to answer your question,  I'll give you the two standard answers.

Version1.   Density.   You are heavier than air,  so you stay on the ground,   while a helium balloon is less dense and it rises.
Version2.   Universal Acceleration,  or UA for short,   this theory proposes that the earth is accelerating upwards at a constant acceleration of 1G, which keeps you on the ground.

That's the main two versions,  there are probably others.


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Master_Evar

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Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2015, 06:48:52 AM »
Nothing that makes sense. Atmospheric pressure doesn't press things in one specific direction (i.e. down) so it doesn't actually prss us to the ground. And buoyancy (Which is what FE:s mean when they say pressure) only works if there is gravity. Universal acceleration is the only thing that makes some slight sense.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

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Rayzor

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Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2015, 09:46:55 PM »
What the flat earthers are still out to lunch?

Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2015, 02:18:46 PM »
What exactly keeps us on the ground without gravity? What force keeps us from flying in to space and beyond when we jump?

Well,  seeing as there are no flat earthers around prepared to answer your question,  I'll give you the two standard answers.

Version1.   Density.   You are heavier than air,  so you stay on the ground,   while a helium balloon is less dense and it rises.
Version2.   Universal Acceleration,  or UA for short,   this theory proposes that the earth is accelerating upwards at a constant acceleration of 1G, which keeps you on the ground.

That's the main two versions,  there are probably others.

But if we jump we would be faster than the earth and if nothing forces us down, then we would fly to space and beyond.

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Conker

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Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2015, 02:55:48 PM »
What exactly keeps us on the ground without gravity? What force keeps us from flying in to space and beyond when we jump?

Well,  seeing as there are no flat earthers around prepared to answer your question,  I'll give you the two standard answers.

Version1.   Density.   You are heavier than air,  so you stay on the ground,   while a helium balloon is less dense and it rises.
Version2.   Universal Acceleration,  or UA for short,   this theory proposes that the earth is accelerating upwards at a constant acceleration of 1G, which keeps you on the ground.

That's the main two versions,  there are probably others.

But if we jump we would be faster than the earth and if nothing forces us down, then we would fly to space and beyond.

Read again. The earth is accelerating in the FE UA hypothesis.
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Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2015, 07:55:24 PM »
What exactly keeps us on the ground without gravity? What force keeps us from flying in to space and beyond when we jump?

Well,  seeing as there are no flat earthers around prepared to answer your question,  I'll give you the two standard answers.

Version1.   Density.   You are heavier than air,  so you stay on the ground,   while a helium balloon is less dense and it rises.
Version2.   Universal Acceleration,  or UA for short,   this theory proposes that the earth is accelerating upwards at a constant acceleration of 1G, which keeps you on the ground.

That's the main two versions,  there are probably others.

But if we jump we would be faster than the earth and if nothing forces us down, then we would fly to space and beyond.

Read again. The earth is accelerating in the FE UA hypothesis.

I can get that we wouldn't fly to space if we jump with UA. But doesn't that mean airplanes would smack into the earth because they fly mostly horizontal? Like they need to fly at a constant angle to accelerate up just as fast as the earth accelerates up. And i don't see many airplanes flying at an angle on cruising altitude. Am i missing something here or is it simply not possible to fly completely horizontal on a flat earth?

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Rayzor

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Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2015, 08:38:50 PM »
What exactly keeps us on the ground without gravity? What force keeps us from flying in to space and beyond when we jump?

Well,  seeing as there are no flat earthers around prepared to answer your question,  I'll give you the two standard answers.

Version1.   Density.   You are heavier than air,  so you stay on the ground,   while a helium balloon is less dense and it rises.
Version2.   Universal Acceleration,  or UA for short,   this theory proposes that the earth is accelerating upwards at a constant acceleration of 1G, which keeps you on the ground.

That's the main two versions,  there are probably others.

But if we jump we would be faster than the earth and if nothing forces us down, then we would fly to space and beyond.

Read again. The earth is accelerating in the FE UA hypothesis.

I can get that we wouldn't fly to space if we jump with UA. But doesn't that mean airplanes would smack into the earth because they fly mostly horizontal? Like they need to fly at a constant angle to accelerate up just as fast as the earth accelerates up. And i don't see many airplanes flying at an angle on cruising altitude. Am i missing something here or is it simply not possible to fly completely horizontal on a flat earth?

Relative to the earth,  they in fact would smack into the earth if they stopped flying.   They would drop exactly like a rock.   So in one sense you are correct, they have to keep flying.   Under the UA theory everything is accelerating upwards at 1g including the air.   So yes, it is possible to fly horizontal on a flat earth.   

The round earth argument.
The problems with UA are more subtle,   UA can't explain gravitational variations,  like the measured gravity at the poles.  Or gravitational surveys used in mineral exploration.  The other thing that can't be explained by UA is tidal effects,  tides depend on the gravitational field diverging,  that is on a sphere if you look at the gravitational  field lines they radiate outwards,  on a flat earth under UA there is no divergence, so tidal forces are impossible on a flat earth under UA.     



Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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hoyhoy5

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Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2015, 09:43:28 PM »
Nothing that makes sense. Atmospheric pressure doesn't press things in one specific direction (i.e. down) so it doesn't actually prss us to the ground. And buoyancy (Which is what FE:s mean when they say pressure) only works if there is gravity. Universal acceleration is the only thing that makes some slight sense.

Alright, pressure is acting all upon us, from all directions. But say you are at 5 meters floating on the ground, for the sake of argument, since we're ignoring gravity here anyway. Wouldn't the hundreds of kilometers of atmosphere above you overcome the pressure pushing you from below, negating any buoyant effects, even from objects lighter than air? Enlighten me in this question.
When in doubt, remember RELM:
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Rayzor

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Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2015, 10:57:57 PM »
Nothing that makes sense. Atmospheric pressure doesn't press things in one specific direction (i.e. down) so it doesn't actually prss us to the ground. And buoyancy (Which is what FE:s mean when they say pressure) only works if there is gravity. Universal acceleration is the only thing that makes some slight sense.

Alright, pressure is acting all upon us, from all directions. But say you are at 5 meters floating on the ground, for the sake of argument, since we're ignoring gravity here anyway. Wouldn't the hundreds of kilometers of atmosphere above you overcome the pressure pushing you from below, negating any buoyant effects, even from objects lighter than air? Enlighten me in this question.

If there was a difference in pressure between underneath you and on top of you then the air would flow from high pressure to low pressure and equalize.    To stay aloft and defeat gravity you would need to have a giant blower underneath you big enough to create a blast of air travelling at your terminal velocity. 

On the other hand if you could increase your surface area,  and decrease your terminal velocity,  say  with a big parachute?   

Or if you just wanted lift  like a hovercraft you would need much less pressure.   A difference of 1 psi over an area of 10 ft by 10 ft  would lift a weight of 100*144 = 14,400 lbs  or over 6 tons.

The standard atmosphere pressure and density gradient you can look up on google,  but you'll find it's pretty much zero over 30 km high.

Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2015, 07:28:08 AM »
Nothing that makes sense. Atmospheric pressure doesn't press things in one specific direction (i.e. down) so it doesn't actually prss us to the ground. And buoyancy (Which is what FE:s mean when they say pressure) only works if there is gravity. Universal acceleration is the only thing that makes some slight sense.

Alright, pressure is acting all upon us, from all directions. But say you are at 5 meters floating on the ground, for the sake of argument, since we're ignoring gravity here anyway. Wouldn't the hundreds of kilometers of atmosphere above you overcome the pressure pushing you from below, negating any buoyant effects, even from objects lighter than air? Enlighten me in this question.
You have an excellent chance of understanding denpressure by the way you are typing. I'm not sure what model you follow but if it's the mainstream model, then I think you will be changing your mind soon enough if you keep thinking on these lines.

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Master_Evar

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Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2015, 07:41:48 AM »
Nothing that makes sense. Atmospheric pressure doesn't press things in one specific direction (i.e. down) so it doesn't actually prss us to the ground. And buoyancy (Which is what FE:s mean when they say pressure) only works if there is gravity. Universal acceleration is the only thing that makes some slight sense.

Alright, pressure is acting all upon us, from all directions. But say you are at 5 meters floating on the ground, for the sake of argument, since we're ignoring gravity here anyway. Wouldn't the hundreds of kilometers of atmosphere above you overcome the pressure pushing you from below, negating any buoyant effects, even from objects lighter than air? Enlighten me in this question.

No, because the air below would get pushed up by the ground beneath. Air pressure is equal in every direction, if you push something it will push back (Every action has a reaction), so the air is pushing down on you, and you are pushing the air below you, and the air below you is pushing the ground. And thanks to that stated law (action/reaction) above, the ground will push back onto the aire above it, and that air will push you up, and you will push back the air above you. It doesn't matter how much air you have above you, because you will push it back with equal force (and with buoyancy, the air below you will actually push you up a little stronger, because you are removing air from a different area when you are in the atmosphere. The weight of the air (Explains why gravity is needed) will get pushed up, and will try to push back down. The only way to make space is to push you back up). If you are dense enough, you will fall, but if you are less dense than the air, you will float up, becuase the air pushed away weighs more than the less-dense-than-air object. It's like a scale, you could say.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

?

hoyhoy5

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  • Irrational disbelief is not critically thinking.
Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2015, 08:26:06 AM »
Nothing that makes sense. Atmospheric pressure doesn't press things in one specific direction (i.e. down) so it doesn't actually prss us to the ground. And buoyancy (Which is what FE:s mean when they say pressure) only works if there is gravity. Universal acceleration is the only thing that makes some slight sense.

Alright, pressure is acting all upon us, from all directions. But say you are at 5 meters floating on the ground, for the sake of argument, since we're ignoring gravity here anyway. Wouldn't the hundreds of kilometers of atmosphere above you overcome the pressure pushing you from below, negating any buoyant effects, even from objects lighter than air? Enlighten me in this question.

No, because the air below would get pushed up by the ground beneath. Air pressure is equal in every direction, if you push something it will push back (Every action has a reaction), so the air is pushing down on you, and you are pushing the air below you, and the air below you is pushing the ground. And thanks to that stated law (action/reaction) above, the ground will push back onto the aire above it, and that air will push you up, and you will push back the air above you. It doesn't matter how much air you have above you, because you will push it back with equal force (and with buoyancy, the air below you will actually push you up a little stronger, because you are removing air from a different area when you are in the atmosphere. The weight of the air (Explains why gravity is needed) will get pushed up, and will try to push back down. The only way to make space is to push you back up). If you are dense enough, you will fall, but if you are less dense than the air, you will float up, becuase the air pushed away weighs more than the less-dense-than-air object. It's like a scale, you could say.

Let me see if I understood, along with Razor's comment. Air pressure decreases as you go higher to space, because it is not anymore compressed into some tiny space. So, if I were 5 meters off the ground, the pressure per cubic meter below me would be higher than the pressure per cubic meter above me. But there's a lot more cubic meters above me than below me. So, the pressure (and/or weight?) of all the air above pushes me to the ground, which in turn, as you described, I push the air back in equal force. You said that due to the buoyancy effect I would actually push the air a bit more that the equal force, is that due to the difference in pressure? Didn't you say that air pressure acts euqualy on all directions before? And Razor also said something regarding the equalization of pressure. Can you please describe more thoroughly, if that's possible? Or recomend a video for me? Sorry for my ignorance.
When in doubt, remember RELM:
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Master_Evar

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Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2015, 09:22:09 AM »
Nothing that makes sense. Atmospheric pressure doesn't press things in one specific direction (i.e. down) so it doesn't actually prss us to the ground. And buoyancy (Which is what FE:s mean when they say pressure) only works if there is gravity. Universal acceleration is the only thing that makes some slight sense.

Alright, pressure is acting all upon us, from all directions. But say you are at 5 meters floating on the ground, for the sake of argument, since we're ignoring gravity here anyway. Wouldn't the hundreds of kilometers of atmosphere above you overcome the pressure pushing you from below, negating any buoyant effects, even from objects lighter than air? Enlighten me in this question.

No, because the air below would get pushed up by the ground beneath. Air pressure is equal in every direction, if you push something it will push back (Every action has a reaction), so the air is pushing down on you, and you are pushing the air below you, and the air below you is pushing the ground. And thanks to that stated law (action/reaction) above, the ground will push back onto the aire above it, and that air will push you up, and you will push back the air above you. It doesn't matter how much air you have above you, because you will push it back with equal force (and with buoyancy, the air below you will actually push you up a little stronger, because you are removing air from a different area when you are in the atmosphere. The weight of the air (Explains why gravity is needed) will get pushed up, and will try to push back down. The only way to make space is to push you back up). If you are dense enough, you will fall, but if you are less dense than the air, you will float up, becuase the air pushed away weighs more than the less-dense-than-air object. It's like a scale, you could say.

Let me see if I understood, along with Razor's comment. Air pressure decreases as you go higher to space, because it is not anymore compressed into some tiny space. So, if I were 5 meters off the ground, the pressure per cubic meter below me would be higher than the pressure per cubic meter above me. But there's a lot more cubic meters above me than below me. So, the pressure (and/or weight?) of all the air above pushes me to the ground, which in turn, as you described, I push the air back in equal force. You said that due to the buoyancy effect I would actually push the air a bit more that the equal force, is that due to the difference in pressure? Didn't you say that air pressure acts euqualy on all directions before? And Razor also said something regarding the equalization of pressure. Can you please describe more thoroughly, if that's possible? Or recomend a video for me? Sorry for my ignorance.

If you put your hand in a bucket of water, the water level rises. This means that even though you pushed the water down (by putting you hand in the bucket), some of it is pushed up. The same applies to the atmosphere, we are pushing our bodyvolume of air up. But this effect works the other way around as well; when the air above us is pushing down on us, it pushes us up as well, more than it pushes us down. This is because the atmospheric matter is attracted to the ground (due to gravity, matter is attracted to matter) and it wants to be as close to the ground as possible (or as low down as possible) but because or bodies are in the way, it tries to push us up away from the ground to make space for itself. If gravity didn't exist, buoyancy wouldn't work and less dense matter, like helium, wouldn't float up.

As i wrote, it kinda works like a scale. If you put weighs on both sides, both sides will try to push down towards the ground, so both objects are trying to push the other object up, but the heavier weight wins.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 09:27:23 AM by Master_Evar »
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

*

Salviati

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Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2015, 11:40:07 AM »
Alright, pressure is acting all upon us, from all directions. But say you are at 5 meters floating on the ground, for the sake of argument, since we're ignoring gravity here anyway. Wouldn't the hundreds of kilometers of atmosphere above you overcome the pressure pushing you from below, negating any buoyant effects, even from objects lighter than air? Enlighten me in this question.

The explanation of this fact was discovered by Archimedes of Syracuse, Sicily, more than two centuries b.C., and is so simple even a child can understand it. It works both for liquids (e.g. water) and gases (e.g. air).



The figure is explicative enough. Anyway, let's begin with some facts. Pressure acts in all directions. Pressure depends by the height of the column of air or water above us (scuba divers know that if they are twenty meters deep the pressure is double respect if they are ten meters deep).

Let's say for sake of debate that the atmosphere is hundred kilometers high. There is an object buoyant in the air. Let's say it's one meter tall. Well then, on top of it (from above to below) there is the pressure of hundred kilometers of air. On bottom of it (from below to above) there is the pressure of hundred kilometers of air PLUS ONE METER. This is the key concept! The pressure from below is bigger than the one from above, due the dimension of the object, and this principle is universal, it works for every object immersed in a fluid.

If we want to say it more exactly, let's say that the force exerted by the fluid from below to above is equal to the weight of the fluid removed by the object (e.g., if the object is one cubic meter it removes one cubic meter of air or water, depending where it is immersed).

The case of the helium balloon. Let's say it is one cubic meter in volume, that is it removes one cubic meter of air. One cubic meter of air weighs about one kilogram, and then the balloon get a force from below to above equal to a kilogram. But the helium is lighter than air, and the entire balloon (the wrapping and the helium inside) weighs say half a kilogram.

And now let's put it all together.

Gravity attracts the balloon with a force of half a kilogram (because the balloon weighs half a kilogram); the atmosphere pushes the balloon from below to above with a force of a kilogram (because it removes one cubic meter of air that weighs one kilogram).

Net result: the balloon get pushed from below with a force of half a kilogram, and it goes up.

If the object has a density bigger than air... well, i strongly hope you can elaborate it yourself.

Let me add that believing gravity doesn't exist and we stay on the ground due to the atmospheric pressure is really a shame.

Bye.
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sceptimatic

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Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2015, 11:54:45 AM »
Alright, pressure is acting all upon us, from all directions. But say you are at 5 meters floating on the ground, for the sake of argument, since we're ignoring gravity here anyway. Wouldn't the hundreds of kilometers of atmosphere above you overcome the pressure pushing you from below, negating any buoyant effects, even from objects lighter than air? Enlighten me in this question.

The explanation of this fact was discovered by Archimedes of Syracuse, Sicily, more than two centuries b.C., and is so simple even a child can understand it. It works both for liquids (e.g. water) and gases (e.g. air).



The figure is explicative enough. Anyway, let's begin with some facts. Pressure acts in all directions. Pressure depends by the height of the column of air or water above us (scuba divers know that if they are twenty meters deep the pressure is double respect if they are ten meters deep).

Let's say for sake of debate that the atmosphere is hundred kilometers high. There is an object buoyant in the air. Let's say it's one meter tall. Well then, on top of it (from above to below) there is the pressure of hundred kilometers of air. On bottom of it (from below to above) there is the pressure of hundred kilometers of air PLUS ONE METER. This is the key concept! The pressure from below is bigger than the one from above, due the dimension of the object, and this principle is universal, it works for every object immersed in a fluid.

If we want to say it more exactly, let's say that the force exerted by the fluid from below to above is equal to the weight of the fluid removed by the object (e.g., if the object is one cubic meter it removes one cubic meter of air or water, depending where it is immersed).

The case of the helium balloon. Let's say it is one cubic meter in volume, that is it removes one cubic meter of air. One cubic meter of air weighs about one kilogram, and then the balloon get a force from below to above equal to a kilogram. But the helium is lighter than air, and the entire balloon (the wrapping and the helium inside) weighs say half a kilogram.

And now let's put it all together.

Gravity attracts the balloon with a force of half a kilogram (because the balloon weighs half a kilogram); the atmosphere pushes the balloon from below to above with a force of a kilogram (because it removes one cubic meter of air that weighs one kilogram).

Net result: the balloon get pushed from below with a force of half a kilogram, and it goes up.

If the object has a density bigger than air... well, i strongly hope you can elaborate it yourself.

Let me add that believing gravity doesn't exist and we stay on the ground due to the atmospheric pressure is really a shame.

Bye.
Nice explanation for most part. It's such a shame you had to add gravity into it. Anyone with a brain SHOULD be able to see that gravity is not needed.

?

Master_Evar

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Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2015, 12:10:30 PM »
Alright, pressure is acting all upon us, from all directions. But say you are at 5 meters floating on the ground, for the sake of argument, since we're ignoring gravity here anyway. Wouldn't the hundreds of kilometers of atmosphere above you overcome the pressure pushing you from below, negating any buoyant effects, even from objects lighter than air? Enlighten me in this question.

The explanation of this fact was discovered by Archimedes of Syracuse, Sicily, more than two centuries b.C., and is so simple even a child can understand it. It works both for liquids (e.g. water) and gases (e.g. air).



The figure is explicative enough. Anyway, let's begin with some facts. Pressure acts in all directions. Pressure depends by the height of the column of air or water above us (scuba divers know that if they are twenty meters deep the pressure is double respect if they are ten meters deep).

Let's say for sake of debate that the atmosphere is hundred kilometers high. There is an object buoyant in the air. Let's say it's one meter tall. Well then, on top of it (from above to below) there is the pressure of hundred kilometers of air. On bottom of it (from below to above) there is the pressure of hundred kilometers of air PLUS ONE METER. This is the key concept! The pressure from below is bigger than the one from above, due the dimension of the object, and this principle is universal, it works for every object immersed in a fluid.

If we want to say it more exactly, let's say that the force exerted by the fluid from below to above is equal to the weight of the fluid removed by the object (e.g., if the object is one cubic meter it removes one cubic meter of air or water, depending where it is immersed).

The case of the helium balloon. Let's say it is one cubic meter in volume, that is it removes one cubic meter of air. One cubic meter of air weighs about one kilogram, and then the balloon get a force from below to above equal to a kilogram. But the helium is lighter than air, and the entire balloon (the wrapping and the helium inside) weighs say half a kilogram.

And now let's put it all together.

Gravity attracts the balloon with a force of half a kilogram (because the balloon weighs half a kilogram); the atmosphere pushes the balloon from below to above with a force of a kilogram (because it removes one cubic meter of air that weighs one kilogram).

Net result: the balloon get pushed from below with a force of half a kilogram, and it goes up.

If the object has a density bigger than air... well, i strongly hope you can elaborate it yourself.

Let me add that believing gravity doesn't exist and we stay on the ground due to the atmospheric pressure is really a shame.

Bye.
Nice explanation for most part. It's such a shame you had to add gravity into it. Anyone with a brain SHOULD be able to see that gravity is not needed.

Give us the maths, skip the gravitational constant and set up an equation that can predict the outcome of sinking an object in water. Otherwise you cannot prove that gravity is not needed.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

*

Rayzor

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Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2015, 10:50:51 PM »
Nice explanation for most part. It's such a shame you had to add gravity into it. Anyone with a brain SHOULD be able to see that gravity is not needed.

Won't work without gravity, so obvious,  even you should see that.   
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2015, 06:58:45 PM »
What exactly keeps us on the ground without gravity? What force keeps us from flying in to space and beyond when we jump?

Well,  seeing as there are no flat earthers around prepared to answer your question,  I'll give you the two standard answers.

Version1.   Density.   You are heavier than air,  so you stay on the ground,   while a helium balloon is less dense and it rises.
Version2.   Universal Acceleration,  or UA for short,   this theory proposes that the earth is accelerating upwards at a constant acceleration of 1G, which keeps you on the ground.

That's the main two versions,  there are probably others.

But if we jump we would be faster than the earth and if nothing forces us down, then we would fly to space and beyond.

Read again. The earth is accelerating in the FE UA hypothesis.

I can get that we wouldn't fly to space if we jump with UA. But doesn't that mean airplanes would smack into the earth because they fly mostly horizontal? Like they need to fly at a constant angle to accelerate up just as fast as the earth accelerates up. And i don't see many airplanes flying at an angle on cruising altitude. Am i missing something here or is it simply not possible to fly completely horizontal on a flat earth?


Version2.   Universal Acceleration,  or UA for short,   this theory proposes that the earth is accelerating upwards at a constant acceleration of 1G, which keeps you on the ground.
There is no deference to weight of an object do to mass of the earth and that of an acceleration of 1G hence the endless argument.
We take flat earth model moving at an acceleration of 1G we go to the outer edge to the ice wall, it can hold the water in, but how does it hold in the atmosphere that can flow over it.
no plaice for ships to fall off, if such plaice existsed, there would be no oceans all the water would be gone.
The earth is so massive that it holds every thing to gather as we see it, no edge no wall needed to hold things in.
Then there is the south pole station occupied since 1956 how can this be.
The the universe has no obligation to makes sense to you.
The earth is a globe.

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hello_there

  • 253
  • Round Earther
Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2015, 01:30:15 AM »
The explanation of this fact was discovered by Archimedes of Syracuse, Sicily, more than two centuries b.C., and is so simple even a child can understand it. It works both for liquids (e.g. water) and gases (e.g. air).



The figure is explicative enough. Anyway, let's begin with some facts. Pressure acts in all directions. Pressure depends by the height of the column of air or water above us (scuba divers know that if they are twenty meters deep the pressure is double respect if they are ten meters deep).

Let's say for sake of debate that the atmosphere is hundred kilometers high. There is an object buoyant in the air. Let's say it's one meter tall. Well then, on top of it (from above to below) there is the pressure of hundred kilometers of air. On bottom of it (from below to above) there is the pressure of hundred kilometers of air PLUS ONE METER. This is the key concept! The pressure from below is bigger than the one from above, due the dimension of the object, and this principle is universal, it works for every object immersed in a fluid.

If we want to say it more exactly, let's say that the force exerted by the fluid from below to above is equal to the weight of the fluid removed by the object (e.g., if the object is one cubic meter it removes one cubic meter of air or water, depending where it is immersed).

The case of the helium balloon. Let's say it is one cubic meter in volume, that is it removes one cubic meter of air. One cubic meter of air weighs about one kilogram, and then the balloon get a force from below to above equal to a kilogram. But the helium is lighter than air, and the entire balloon (the wrapping and the helium inside) weighs say half a kilogram.

And now let's put it all together.

Gravity attracts the balloon with a force of half a kilogram (because the balloon weighs half a kilogram); the atmosphere pushes the balloon from below to above with a force of a kilogram (because it removes one cubic meter of air that weighs one kilogram).

Net result: the balloon get pushed from below with a force of half a kilogram, and it goes up.

If the object has a density bigger than air... well, i strongly hope you can elaborate it yourself.

Let me add that believing gravity doesn't exist and we stay on the ground due to the atmospheric pressure is really a shame.

Bye.

Salviati Actually that formula only works for incompressible fluid, but the explanation is absolutely correct. Here is the formula if you want to consider compressible fluid and (for some reason) consider the fact that gravity reduces slightly if you go higher.
http://imageshack.com/a/img538/6514/5WzBHo.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img538/9707/AzM5k5.jpg

Nice explanation for most part. It's such a shame you had to add gravity into it. Anyone with a brain SHOULD be able to see that gravity is not needed.

sceptimatic Bouyant force exist from the fact that dp/dz >< 0, and gravity plays a role in there. Here is the derivation
http://imageshack.com/a/img673/2559/TuNfyS.jpg

If you are really sure that gravity should not be in the formula, then show me your formula and the derivation.

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Salviati

  • 147
  • What is my Personal Text?
Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2015, 02:58:00 AM »

Salviati Actually that formula only works for incompressible fluid, but the explanation is absolutely correct. Here is the formula if you want to consider compressible fluid and (for some reason) consider the fact that gravity reduces slightly if you go higher.
http://imageshack.com/a/img538/6514/5WzBHo.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img538/9707/AzM5k5.jpg

Nice explanation for most part. It's such a shame you had to add gravity into it. Anyone with a brain SHOULD be able to see that gravity is not needed.

sceptimatic Bouyant force exist from the fact that dp/dz >< 0, and gravity plays a role in there. Here is the derivation
http://imageshack.com/a/img673/2559/TuNfyS.jpg

If you are really sure that gravity should not be in the formula, then show me your formula and the derivation.

Thank you for the formulas, very interesting, i saved them.

Consider however that they contains triple integrals, and here we are on a forum of flat earthers... :-)
Q: Why do you think the Earth is round?
A: Look out the window!

Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2015, 12:34:03 AM »
So wait, why can't we go to space again? Does the universe accelerate more the higher we go or something? It does not look like space travel is impossible and seeing that so many FE's say that NASA and all other space agencies are all lying companies to "brainwash" us. However it is never said why space travel is impossible.

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Quail

  • 132
  • I can't sea gull.
Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2015, 12:01:06 PM »
So wait, why can't we go to space again? Does the universe accelerate more the higher we go or something? It does not look like space travel is impossible and seeing that so many FE's say that NASA and all other space agencies are all lying companies to "brainwash" us. However it is never said why space travel is impossible.
Flat Earthers think that space travel is impossible because they have only seen dumbed down or unexplained references to space and space travel in mainstream media, so they obviously think it's impossible as they never research further due to the prejudice they have gained from mainstream media, and therefore never received any explanations.

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Mike Mazzone

  • 50
  • Proud Flat Earther
Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2015, 04:26:17 PM »
One word, density.  Here's a recent youtube video describing the concept of density being mislabeled as "gravity".

" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">
My Flat Earth Youtube Statement

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Conker

  • 1557
  • Official FES jerk / kneebiter
Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2015, 05:45:51 PM »
One word, density.  Here's a recent youtube video describing the concept of density being mislabeled as "gravity".

" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">

A pair of same sized balls, one of iron, and the other of lead, fall at the same rate. Gallileo's simple thought experiment proves that gravitational acceleration is not dependant on mass.
This is not a joke society.
Quote from: OpenedEyes
You shouldn't be allowed to talk on a free discussion forum.

Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2015, 03:39:44 AM »
One word, density.  Here's a recent youtube video describing the concept of density being mislabeled as "gravity".

" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">

A pair of same sized balls, one of iron, and the other of lead, fall at the same rate. Gallileo's simple thought experiment proves that gravitational acceleration is not dependant on mass.


And this disproves space travel? It may prove why we are on the ground, but not disprove space travel. As far as i am concerned we can still make a big rocket, go out of the atmosphere, maybe land on the moon, take some pictures, and come back using a parachute where we use buoyant force to safely land on the ground. Sounds simple enough.

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Yendor

  • 1676
Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2015, 01:15:47 PM »

And this disproves space travel? It may prove why we are on the ground, but not disprove space travel. As far as i am concerned we can still make a big rocket, go out of the atmosphere, maybe land on the moon, take some pictures, and come back using a parachute where we use buoyant force to safely land on the ground. Sounds simple enough.
[/quote]

Flopsinator.

QUESTION:

What is one power or belief that would convince you that humans will never go in outer space, If you've never heard of NASA in any way shape or form?
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
                              George Orwell

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pax

  • 61
Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2015, 02:03:46 PM »
Nice explanation for most part. It's such a shame you had to add gravity into it. Anyone with a brain SHOULD be able to see that gravity is not needed.

Won't work without gravity, so obvious,  even you should see that.

I'm going to point out and keep tally of each time a FEer abandons a thread when asked to provide, explain, or disprove a mathematical proposition. Here, it has been shown that the gravitational constant is required. Thread abandoned.

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Yendor

  • 1676
Re: Nothing that keeps us on the ground.
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2015, 02:36:20 PM »
Nice explanation for most part. It's such a shame you had to add gravity into it. Anyone with a brain SHOULD be able to see that gravity is not needed.

Won't work without gravity, so obvious,  even you should see that.

I'm going to point out and keep tally of each time a FEer abandons a thread when asked to provide, explain, or disprove a mathematical proposition. Here, it has been shown that the gravitational constant is required. Thread abandoned.

They have to do that, because that is all they know starting at an early age and the internet is packed full of it. Just ask them to open their minds. That really throws them off. They've lost that ability...if they ever had it.
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
                              George Orwell