Flat Earth, other theories and Solipsism

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hoyhoy5

  • 72
  • Irrational disbelief is not critically thinking.
Flat Earth, other theories and Solipsism
« on: July 05, 2015, 09:41:56 PM »
First off, I wanna introduce myself, as I just recently registered in this forum. And as my fisrt contribution to it, I am going to talk not exactly about any particular argument favorable or against flat earth theory, but relative to the nature of its arguments.

Solipsism is the idea that one's mind is the only thing sure to exist. Any external stimulation or evidence could be the creation of the mind, could be a setup of some sorts or could as well be a conspiracy or simulation made into tricking the mind or some stuff of the sorts (examples might be taken from the movie series Matrix, but not expressing solipsism directly).

One particular aspect about Solipsism is that it is both irrefutable, and unprovable, as any kind of scientific experiment could easily be dismissed as another mind trick or deception. Every day or our lives we trust that all we percieve is real, in order to continue living normally.

So, how does it all connect to the Flat Earth Theory? The thing is that most arguments favorable to Flat Earth Theory (or any theory, for that matter) include some sort of fake evidence, conspiracy or mental manipulation of the masses. And indeed, these things are very feasible in our world, as proven again and again by hidden agendas and all the like.

The problem is when scientifical or audiovisual proof that Flat Earth Theory might be wrong is presented. All, with no exclusion, proofs against FE could also be dismissed as hidden agendas, fake evidence or mental manipulation, following this solipsist idea. And we would reach nowhere, as evidence contrary to "evidence manipulation" could also be evidence manipulated, and so forth.

Take for example: how can you prove George Washington existed?
Every evidence of his existence you could bring up can be dismissed by this solipsist idea, as the evidence is "fake", its all a "setup" to blind you from the "truth".

And we can never know if there really is this manipulation or not. For the most part, I make this exercise of trust in our world (altought trusting blindly in an idea or "truth" presented to you is surely bad), and try to base my opinions or what is more probable, rational and logical thinking, and science.

Repeating what I said, the point of this tread isn't exactly to prove or disprove FE, but just debating about the nature of some arguments utilized.
When in doubt, remember RELM:
Rationality, Evidence, Logic and Math.

Re: Flat Earth, other theories and Solipsism
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2015, 09:50:33 PM »
First off, I wanna introduce myself, as I just recently registered in this forum. And as my fisrt contribution to it, I am going to talk not exactly about any particular argument favorable or against flat earth theory, but relative to the nature of its arguments.

Solipsism is the idea that one's mind is the only thing sure to exist. Any external stimulation or evidence could be the creation of the mind, could be a setup of some sorts or could as well be a conspiracy or simulation made into tricking the mind or some stuff of the sorts (examples might be taken from the movie series Matrix, but not expressing solipsism directly).

One particular aspect about Solipsism is that it is both irrefutable, and unprovable, as any kind of scientific experiment could easily be dismissed as another mind trick or deception. Every day or our lives we trust that all we percieve is real, in order to continue living normally.

So, how does it all connect to the Flat Earth Theory? The thing is that most arguments favorable to Flat Earth Theory (or any theory, for that matter) include some sort of fake evidence, conspiracy or mental manipulation of the masses. And indeed, these things are very feasible in our world, as proven again and again by hidden agendas and all the like.

The problem is when scientifical or audiovisual proof that Flat Earth Theory might be wrong is presented. All, with no exclusion, proofs against FE could also be dismissed as hidden agendas, fake evidence or mental manipulation, following this solipsist idea. And we would reach nowhere, as evidence contrary to "evidence manipulation" could also be evidence manipulated, and so forth.

Take for example: how can you prove George Washington existed?
Every evidence of his existence you could bring up can be dismissed by this solipsist idea, as the evidence is "fake", its all a "setup" to blind you from the "truth".

And we can never know if there really is this manipulation or not. For the most part, I make this exercise of trust in our world (altought trusting blindly in an idea or "truth" presented to you is surely bad), and try to base my opinions or what is more probable, rational and logical thinking, and science.

Repeating what I said, the point of this tread isn't exactly to prove or disprove FE, but just debating about the nature of some arguments utilized.

The problem with FE is that there is absolutely no way to prove it. The true shape of the earth is known and there is every evidence to prove it. But the FES will just deny all of it as being fake or the product of a vast conspiracy.
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

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hoyhoy5

  • 72
  • Irrational disbelief is not critically thinking.
Re: Flat Earth, other theories and Solipsism
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2015, 09:56:21 PM »

The problem with FE is that there is absolutely no way to prove it. The true shape of the earth is known and there is every evidence to prove it. But the FES will just deny all of it as being fake or the product of a vast conspiracy.

The cheap argument that "its all a conspiracy" can always be used by them. Unfortunately. And no one can prove them right or wrong on that one.
When in doubt, remember RELM:
Rationality, Evidence, Logic and Math.

*

Poko

  • 216
Re: Flat Earth, other theories and Solipsism
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2015, 12:36:36 AM »
First off, I wanna introduce myself, as I just recently registered in this forum.

Run. Run away as fast as you can and never look back. You're not going to find a debate here. You may think you'll find a reasonable debate with one side presenting their evidence and the other side presenting their evidence, but you haven't met scepti or tappet or jrowe yet. Just go. Flee this place.
"In the fall of 1972 President Nixon announced that the rate of increase of inflation was decreasing. This was the first time a sitting president used the third derivative to advance his case for reelection." - Hugo Rossi

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 22962
Re: Flat Earth, other theories and Solipsism
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2015, 12:57:05 AM »
It's about trusting the set up you are part of. We are born to trust our parents, enough to follow a pattern set out. We are at an advantage and a disadvantage right there.
We can follow moral codes of conduct and also follow their indoctrinated view which we have to assume is correct.
So what happens when we start to see lies in our faces, either by those parents or by the media? do we accept that a few small lies are told and that's it, everything else is all above board?

Most people can accept much about what happens in life and not question it. I'd say there's very few people that show the traits that the OP is suggesting and even so, it's not specific to a flat Earth theory. All most people are doing, is theorising about a different model.

Conspiracy theorists are more largely borne from those who actually believe 100% they live on a planet - a globe and believe in space, etc, yet they simply don't believe much of what governments say.
Naturally with people who come to this forum, they immediately have it in their heads that flat Earth theorists are simply nutters who believe everything is a conspiracy and yet globalists are simply so well educated and in the know that most couldn't possibly follow a trend like this.

It's bollocks.

The truth of the matter is simple. If people don't believe something existed or exists and they haven't had physical proof that it actually did or does exist, then they have the right to question whether it did or is.
All they require is enough proof to accept beyond reasonable doubt that it did/does or didn't/doesn't exist.

The problem about a belief system is, it's all about peer pressure. It's about a force to believe or a force to disbelieve by mass opinion. It's a sort of bullying to be fair.

The saying is, tell a lie often enough and people will eventually believe it.
The truth is, so called scientists could tell you that they discovered a fire breathing dragon in a cave in some remote place in the world and many people will believe that from just that point. Many will be waiting for a joke to come of it.
If the story was told often, then most people would accept it as true. There will be pockets of people who simply brush it off as bullshit. these people will be known as nutter very soon after, because this is how belief systems are pushed onto people and how bullying tactics are employed to make anyone who thinks opposite to what mainstream media put out is soon cast off as , ODD.

Waits for the tl;dr crew.  ;D

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JerkFace

  • 10152
  • Looking for Occam
Re: Flat Earth, other theories and Solipsism
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2015, 01:03:43 AM »
It's about trusting the set up you are part of. We are born to trust our parents, enough to follow a pattern set out. We are at an advantage and a disadvantage right there.
We can follow moral codes of conduct and also follow their indoctrinated view which we have to assume is correct.
So what happens when we start to see lies in our faces, either by those parents or by the media? do we accept that a few small lies are told and that's it, everything else is all above board?

Most people can accept much about what happens in life and not question it. I'd say there's very few people that show the traits that the OP is suggesting and even so, it's not specific to a flat Earth theory. All most people are doing, is theorising about a different model.

Conspiracy theorists are more largely borne from those who actually believe 100% they live on a planet - a globe and believe in space, etc, yet they simply don't believe much of what governments say.
Naturally with people who come to this forum, they immediately have it in their heads that flat Earth theorists are simply nutters who believe everything is a conspiracy and yet globalists are simply so well educated and in the know that most couldn't possibly follow a trend like this.

It's bollocks.

The truth of the matter is simple. If people don't believe something existed or exists and they haven't had physical proof that it actually did or does exist, then they have the right to question whether it did or is.
All they require is enough proof to accept beyond reasonable doubt that it did/does or didn't/doesn't exist.

The problem about a belief system is, it's all about peer pressure. It's about a force to believe or a force to disbelieve by mass opinion. It's a sort of bullying to be fair.

The saying is, tell a lie often enough and people will eventually believe it.
The truth is, so called scientists could tell you that they discovered a fire breathing dragon in a cave in some remote place in the world and many people will believe that from just that point. Many will be waiting for a joke to come of it.
If the story was told often, then most people would accept it as true. There will be pockets of people who simply brush it off as bullshit. these people will be known as nutter very soon after, because this is how belief systems are pushed onto people and how bullying tactics are employed to make anyone who thinks opposite to what mainstream media put out is soon cast off as , ODD.

Waits for the tl;dr crew.  ;D

Here you go.   Make a choice.



Do you really think it changes the shape of the world?

Just to clarify something,  the scientific method is not a belief system.     Using your example,  if scientists  published a paper claiming that they found fire breathing dragons in a remote cave, then they would have to produce evidence and others would have to duplicate the observations for confirmation.  No doubt there would also be many scientists who would challenge the interpretations and lively debate would ensue.   Eventually the evidence would be tested over and over in different ways and fire breathing dragons accepted as fact or not depending on what the weight of evidence was.   Nobody would just accept it without solid proof.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 01:12:24 AM by Rayzor »
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 22962
Re: Flat Earth, other theories and Solipsism
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2015, 01:48:00 AM »
It's about trusting the set up you are part of. We are born to trust our parents, enough to follow a pattern set out. We are at an advantage and a disadvantage right there.
We can follow moral codes of conduct and also follow their indoctrinated view which we have to assume is correct.
So what happens when we start to see lies in our faces, either by those parents or by the media? do we accept that a few small lies are told and that's it, everything else is all above board?

Most people can accept much about what happens in life and not question it. I'd say there's very few people that show the traits that the OP is suggesting and even so, it's not specific to a flat Earth theory. All most people are doing, is theorising about a different model.

Conspiracy theorists are more largely borne from those who actually believe 100% they live on a planet - a globe and believe in space, etc, yet they simply don't believe much of what governments say.
Naturally with people who come to this forum, they immediately have it in their heads that flat Earth theorists are simply nutters who believe everything is a conspiracy and yet globalists are simply so well educated and in the know that most couldn't possibly follow a trend like this.

It's bollocks.

The truth of the matter is simple. If people don't believe something existed or exists and they haven't had physical proof that it actually did or does exist, then they have the right to question whether it did or is.
All they require is enough proof to accept beyond reasonable doubt that it did/does or didn't/doesn't exist.

The problem about a belief system is, it's all about peer pressure. It's about a force to believe or a force to disbelieve by mass opinion. It's a sort of bullying to be fair.

The saying is, tell a lie often enough and people will eventually believe it.
The truth is, so called scientists could tell you that they discovered a fire breathing dragon in a cave in some remote place in the world and many people will believe that from just that point. Many will be waiting for a joke to come of it.
If the story was told often, then most people would accept it as true. There will be pockets of people who simply brush it off as bullshit. these people will be known as nutter very soon after, because this is how belief systems are pushed onto people and how bullying tactics are employed to make anyone who thinks opposite to what mainstream media put out is soon cast off as , ODD.

Waits for the tl;dr crew.  ;D

Here you go.   Make a choice.



Do you really think it changes the shape of the world?

Just to clarify something,  the scientific method is not a belief system.     Using your example,  if scientists  published a paper claiming that they found fire breathing dragons in a remote cave, then they would have to produce evidence and others would have to duplicate the observations for confirmation.  No doubt there would also be many scientists who would challenge the interpretations and lively debate would ensue.   Eventually the evidence would be tested over and over in different ways and fire breathing dragons accepted as fact or not depending on what the weight of evidence was.   Nobody would just accept it without solid proof.
How many times have newspapers pushed a story and got the nation gossiping over it, only to play April fool's the very next day.
Yeah it's obvious that people will pretend they knew it was a joke, because people naturally don't like to be fooled so will take any opportunity to get out of it if they can.

This works for me and you as well in terms of flat v glove.
You will argue till death for what you believe because you don't want to be shown up if your belief system turns out to be wrong.
I would be the same if it turned out we did live on a globe and all was true what we were told as kids. The point is, you know in your mind that the Earth is nothing other than a globe because you bought into that and prefer to follow mass thought.
I know in my mind that the Earth is not a globe at the very least. It could be various other shapes, so I still have scope to piece it all together over time.

If I'm ever proved wrong I'd feel a twat and laugh. If people who spent their lives studying everything to do with the globe model and space found they were wrong, there would be mass depression.

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 11684
Re: Flat Earth, other theories and Solipsism
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2015, 04:07:55 AM »
How many times have newspapers pushed a story and got the nation gossiping over it, only to play April fool's the very next day.
It's almost like newspapers aren't peer-reviewed scientific journals. Who knew.

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hoyhoy5

  • 72
  • Irrational disbelief is not critically thinking.
Re: Flat Earth, other theories and Solipsism
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2015, 06:37:48 AM »
It's about trusting the set up you are part of. We are born to trust our parents, enough to follow a pattern set out. We are at an advantage and a disadvantage right there.
We can follow moral codes of conduct and also follow their indoctrinated view which we have to assume is correct.
So what happens when we start to see lies in our faces, either by those parents or by the media? do we accept that a few small lies are told and that's it, everything else is all above board?

Most people can accept much about what happens in life and not question it. I'd say there's very few people that show the traits that the OP is suggesting and even so, it's not specific to a flat Earth theory. All most people are doing, is theorising about a different model.

Conspiracy theorists are more largely borne from those who actually believe 100% they live on a planet - a globe and believe in space, etc, yet they simply don't believe much of what governments say.
Naturally with people who come to this forum, they immediately have it in their heads that flat Earth theorists are simply nutters who believe everything is a conspiracy and yet globalists are simply so well educated and in the know that most couldn't possibly follow a trend like this.

It's bollocks.

The truth of the matter is simple. If people don't believe something existed or exists and they haven't had physical proof that it actually did or does exist, then they have the right to question whether it did or is.
All they require is enough proof to accept beyond reasonable doubt that it did/does or didn't/doesn't exist.

The problem about a belief system is, it's all about peer pressure. It's about a force to believe or a force to disbelieve by mass opinion. It's a sort of bullying to be fair.

The saying is, tell a lie often enough and people will eventually believe it.
The truth is, so called scientists could tell you that they discovered a fire breathing dragon in a cave in some remote place in the world and many people will believe that from just that point. Many will be waiting for a joke to come of it.
If the story was told often, then most people would accept it as true. There will be pockets of people who simply brush it off as bullshit. these people will be known as nutter very soon after, because this is how belief systems are pushed onto people and how bullying tactics are employed to make anyone who thinks opposite to what mainstream media put out is soon cast off as , ODD.

Waits for the tl;dr crew.  ;D

Hello.
Thing is, I already knew about this stuff regarding truth, lies, social pressure and mass manipulation.

You say that, if evidence is given to you regarding the Earth being round, you would believe it with no problem. But that's exactly my point in this thread.

Any evidence provided to you guys could easily be shrugged off following the solipsist idea of hidden technology, general conspiracy and so on. Evidence would never, ever be enough to you guys. Not forgetting the fact that you can easily change the Flat Earth Theory to fit these new questions, without any cerimony.

I, personally, believe the Earth is round. Not because I can't let go of "the lie I've been told" since I was a child. When I fisrt found this forum, obviously a sliver of doubt grew in my head. But through reason, evidence, logic and what is more probable, I came to the personal conclusion that it is infinetly more probable that the Earth is round than that the Earth is flat. But then again, everything is a leap of faith.
When in doubt, remember RELM:
Rationality, Evidence, Logic and Math.

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hoyhoy5

  • 72
  • Irrational disbelief is not critically thinking.
Re: Flat Earth, other theories and Solipsism
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2015, 06:40:42 AM »
First off, I wanna introduce myself, as I just recently registered in this forum.

Run. Run away as fast as you can and never look back. You're not going to find a debate here. You may think you'll find a reasonable debate with one side presenting their evidence and the other side presenting their evidence, but you haven't met scepti or tappet or jrowe yet. Just go. Flee this place.

Yeah, I read a lot some of these topics, and can see how easily argumentation is avoided and the topic is derailed for personal offenses and accusations of blindness from the "truth". Still, I am here, and I don't know why.
When in doubt, remember RELM:
Rationality, Evidence, Logic and Math.