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Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.

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josan

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Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« on: June 26, 2015, 01:36:26 PM »
I have seen various discussions in this forum regarding "issues" with aircraft taking off and landing on a spinning earth as opposed to a stationary earth. Majority of these "issues" are basically due to failure to comprehend  1. Relative velocity 2. Frame of reference 3. The Frame of reference in which the observer is there.

I would like to present a small comparable scenario and see how things work out there.

Experiment: A train is moving at a constant speed. A traveler inside the train operates a remote controlled helicopter/airplane and flies it  a. In the direction of train travel b. opposite to the direction of train travel. In both cases the operator flies the remote controlled toy the same distance, lets say from point A to B and from point B to A.

Now there are two observers a. One who is sitting inside the train b. One who is standing outside on a platform while the train is passing.

What is the flight time recorded by the observers?

If one is able to comprehend this experiment then the so called "issues" in the aforementioned scenario would not arise.

 
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Mikey T.

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2015, 05:42:32 PM »
Tried this type of explanation already.  It just confused them.
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mlwinfrey

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2015, 05:59:34 PM »
Quote from: Mikey T. on June 26, 2015, 05:42:32 PM
Tried this type of explanation already.  It just confused them.


HAHAHA, this absolutely killed me!  I am really curious to see what responses come back as well.  Relative motion can be a bit of a bear to fully get your head around, especially if you don't want to believe it exists.
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Ski

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2015, 07:25:12 PM »
Quote from: josan on June 26, 2015, 01:36:26 PM
I have seen various discussions in this forum regarding "issues" with aircraft taking off and landing on a spinning earth as opposed to a stationary earth. Majority of these "issues" are basically due to failure to comprehend  1. Relative velocity 2. Frame of reference 3. The Frame of reference in which the observer is there.

I've not been around much lately, so I'm not up to date on who is spewing what at the moment, but the actual flat earth believers I know by and large have a firmer grasp on relativity and frames than the typical globularist poster.

I suspect whoever said that either said it in jest or was trolling for a response or trying to besmirch the movement.
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Alpha2Omega

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2015, 09:42:07 PM »
Quote from: Ski on June 26, 2015, 07:25:12 PM
actual flat earth believers I know by and large have a firmer grasp on relativity and frames than the typical globularist poster.[Citation needed]
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Ski

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2015, 09:45:41 PM »
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Alpha2Omega

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2015, 09:50:28 PM »
Quote from: Ski on June 26, 2015, 09:45:41 PM
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=62155.msg1702445#msg1702445

Citation provided.
I see an apparently empty claim from you about understanding frames of reference in that thread, but no actual evidence of same. Can you back your claim up?

While you're at it, I'm still waiting for your "correct" formula for velocity given acceleration and time. Can you provide it, please? You were the one who said my formula was wrong. Remember?

[Edit] typo.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 09:52:53 PM by Alpha2Omega »
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guv

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2015, 10:35:02 PM »
Quote from: Alpha2Omega on June 26, 2015, 09:50:28 PM
Quote from: Ski on June 26, 2015, 09:45:41 PM
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=62155.msg1702445#msg1702445

Citation provided.
I see an apparently empty claim from you about understanding frames of reference in that thread, but no actual evidence of same. Can you back your claim up?

While you're at it, I'm still waiting for your "correct" formula for velocity given acceleration and time. Can you provide it, please? You were the one who said my formula was wrong. Remember?

[Edit] typo.



V=AT simple unless you have a flat Earth a. That could do anything.
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mikeman7918

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2015, 11:58:21 PM »
I have lost count of the number of times I have had to explain this to flat earthers.  The analogy I usually use is throwing a ball up in the air and catching it while you are in a moving car, or throwing a paper airplane in a moving car.  They behave just as they would if the car were stationary.  Many flat earthers still reuse to understand it though.
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josan

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2015, 12:23:53 AM »
Quote from: Ski on June 26, 2015, 07:25:12 PM
Quote from: josan on June 26, 2015, 01:36:26 PM
I have seen various discussions in this forum regarding "issues" with aircraft taking off and landing on a spinning earth as opposed to a stationary earth. Majority of these "issues" are basically due to failure to comprehend  1. Relative velocity 2. Frame of reference 3. The Frame of reference in which the observer is there.

I've not been around much lately, so I'm not up to date on who is spewing what at the moment, but the actual flat earth believers I know by and large have a firmer grasp on relativity and frames than the typical globularist poster.

I suspect whoever said that either said it in jest or was trolling for a response or trying to besmirch the movement.

Why does "relativity" need to come into the picture ? No need of complex stuff. Let us first deal with inertial frames and newtonian dynamics.
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josan

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2015, 12:35:55 AM »
Let me provide some numerical values in the experiment to see what answer people come up with. The constant velocity of the train is 15 m/sec . the distance between point A and B for the toy to travel is 5m . For simplicity assume the toy does not have acceleration and deceleration while take off and landing. Constant velocity of toy is 1m/sec . Now what is the flight time observed by a. Observer inside train . b. Observer on the platform
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Ski

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2015, 08:24:17 AM »
Quote from: guv on June 26, 2015, 10:35:02 PM
Quote from: Alpha2Omega on June 26, 2015, 09:50:28 PM
Quote from: Ski on June 26, 2015, 09:45:41 PM
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=62155.msg1702445#msg1702445

Citation provided.
I see an apparently empty claim from you about understanding frames of reference in that thread, but no actual evidence of same. Can you back your claim up?

While you're at it, I'm still waiting for your "correct" formula for velocity given acceleration and time. Can you provide it, please? You were the one who said my formula was wrong. Remember?

[Edit] typo.



V=AT simple unless you have a flat Earth a. That could do anything.

Actually,  v = c tanh(aT/c)



To simplify the principle point in question at the moment, you might easier use the correct velocity addition formula (incorrectly inferred here by josan as "v=a+w") and use the correct equation: v = (a + w) / (1 + aw ÷ c^2)

v = resultant velocity
w= existing velocity
a= amount of velocity added over a period of time (in this case 9.8m/s per over a second)

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Ski

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2015, 08:26:40 AM »
Quote from: josan on June 27, 2015, 12:23:53 AM
Why does "relativity" need to come into the picture ? No need of complex stuff. Let us first deal with inertial frames and newtonian dynamics.

Isn't relativity commonly and best-used to deal with FoR?    ???

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josan

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2015, 08:55:49 AM »
Quote from: Ski on June 27, 2015, 08:24:17 AM
Quote from: guv on June 26, 2015, 10:35:02 PM
Quote from: Alpha2Omega on June 26, 2015, 09:50:28 PM
Quote from: Ski on June 26, 2015, 09:45:41 PM
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=62155.msg1702445#msg1702445

Citation provided.
I see an apparently empty claim from you about understanding frames of reference in that thread, but no actual evidence of same. Can you back your claim up?

While you're at it, I'm still waiting for your "correct" formula for velocity given acceleration and time. Can you provide it, please? You were the one who said my formula was wrong. Remember?

[Edit] typo.



V=AT simple unless you have a flat Earth a. That could do anything.

Actually,  v = c tanh(aT/c)



To simplify the principle point in question at the moment, you might easier use the correct velocity addition formula (incorrectly inferred here by josan as "v=a+w") and use the correct equation: v = (a + w) / (1 + aw ÷ c^2)

v = resultant velocity
w= existing velocity
a= amount of velocity added over a period of time (in this case 9.8m/s per over a second)

I did not mention any formula at all. So what is it that I have incorrectly inferred. I have simply given an elementary level physics numerical. How hard is it to calculate simple relative velocity problem?!!
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josan

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2015, 08:57:06 AM »
If you cannot solve the problem simply say so and I will give the answer ! ;)
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29silhouette

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2015, 10:23:25 AM »
Quote from: Ski on June 26, 2015, 07:25:12 PM
Quote from: josan on June 26, 2015, 01:36:26 PM
I have seen various discussions in this forum regarding "issues" with aircraft taking off and landing on a spinning earth as opposed to a stationary earth. Majority of these "issues" are basically due to failure to comprehend  1. Relative velocity 2. Frame of reference 3. The Frame of reference in which the observer is there.

I've not been around much lately, so I'm not up to date on who is spewing what at the moment, but the actual flat earth believers I know by and large have a firmer grasp on relativity and frames than the typical globularist poster.

I suspect whoever said that either said it in jest or was trolling for a response or trying to besmirch the movement.
Does that include everyone here who claims a plane can only fly in one direction on a rotating globe?
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Alpha2Omega

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2015, 11:06:03 AM »
Quote from: Ski on June 27, 2015, 08:24:17 AM
Quote from: guv on June 26, 2015, 10:35:02 PM
Quote from: Alpha2Omega on June 26, 2015, 09:50:28 PM
Quote from: Ski on June 26, 2015, 09:45:41 PM
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=62155.msg1702445#msg1702445

Citation provided.
I see an apparently empty claim from you about understanding frames of reference in that thread, but no actual evidence of same. Can you back your claim up?

While you're at it, I'm still waiting for your "correct" formula for velocity given acceleration and time. Can you provide it, please? You were the one who said my formula was wrong. Remember?

[Edit] typo.
V=AT simple unless you have a flat Earth a. That could do anything.

Actually,  v = c tanh(aT/c)

Referring to the example in http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=62155.msg1702445#msg1702445

Q: what is the difference between v = aT and v = c tanh(aT/c) for a = 9.7755 m/s2, t = 86400 s, and c = 299,792,458 m/s?

v = aT
 = (9.7755 m/s2)(86400 s)
 = 844,603 m/s

v = c tanh(aT/c)
 = (299,792,458 m/s) tanh(844,603 m/s / 299,792,458 m/s)
 = (99,792,458 m/s) tanh(0.002817292)
 = (99,792,458 m/s) (0.002817285)
 = 844,601 m/s

A: It's down in the noise.

v = aT is perfectly adequate for the case given, especially considering the limited precision of the value for g0 of 9.8 m/s2 and variances of about 0.5% from pole to equator in the example. We don't see any difference at all unless we carry a lot more digits than are justified by the input data. There's no need to use relativistic calculations for back-of-an-envelope examples like this. Sorry.
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Dog

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2015, 03:31:46 PM »
I've given up on mathematical explanations and example explanations for relative velocities.

These days I just call them out when they switch frames of reference, because that's really all it boils down to.

"So the airplane is on the tarmac not moving." Okay.
"The airplane takes off going W." Okay.
"Okay now it's going the opposite of Earth's spin why isn't it floating!?!?" Not okay. Stick with one damn frame. Otherwise you're just making up physics on the spot.
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markjo

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2015, 05:33:24 PM »
If an airplane can take off from and land on an pitching and moving aircraft carrier at sea, then why should a spinning earth be a problem?
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Poko

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2015, 05:48:36 PM »
Quote from: markjo on June 28, 2015, 05:33:24 PM
If an airplane can take off from and land on an pitching and moving aircraft carrier at sea, then why should a spinning earth be a problem?

When you measure the speed of an aircraft, you're really saying it moves at such and such speed relative to the air around it. On a moving aircraft carrier, the air is moving backwards relative to deck. On a spinning earth, the air is not moving relative to the ground.
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Dog

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2015, 06:29:00 PM »
Quote from: markjo on June 28, 2015, 05:33:24 PM
If an airplane can take off from and land on an pitching and moving aircraft carrier at sea, then why should a spinning earth be a problem?

Because it doesn't matter that there is zero acceleration, all that matters is "ZOMG 1000mph!!!".
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Poko

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2015, 06:44:30 PM »
Quote from: Dog on June 28, 2015, 06:29:00 PM
Quote from: markjo on June 28, 2015, 05:33:24 PM
If an airplane can take off from and land on an pitching and moving aircraft carrier at sea, then why should a spinning earth be a problem?

Because it doesn't matter that there is zero acceleration, all that matters is "ZOMG 1000mph!!!".

I think what he means is that an aircraft can take off from a moving aircraft carrier and appear to float over it while an aircraft taking off from the ground can not do the same. This, of course, ignores the fact that a moving aircraft carrier is moving through the air rather than with the air.
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markjo

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2015, 09:50:38 PM »
Quote from: Poko on June 28, 2015, 05:48:36 PM
Quote from: markjo on June 28, 2015, 05:33:24 PM
If an airplane can take off from and land on an pitching and moving aircraft carrier at sea, then why should a spinning earth be a problem?

When you measure the speed of an aircraft, you're really saying it moves at such and such speed relative to the air around it. On a moving aircraft carrier, the air is moving backwards relative to deck. On a spinning earth, the air is not moving relative to the ground.
Actually, the air generally does move relative to the earth.  It's called wind, and it's pretty common phenomenon.  In fact, airport runways are generally laid out to take advantage of the prevailing winds, but it's not unusual for pilots to have to deal with cross winds on take off or landing.
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Poko

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2015, 10:12:15 PM »
Quote from: markjo on June 28, 2015, 09:50:38 PM
Quote from: Poko on June 28, 2015, 05:48:36 PM
Quote from: markjo on June 28, 2015, 05:33:24 PM
If an airplane can take off from and land on an pitching and moving aircraft carrier at sea, then why should a spinning earth be a problem?

When you measure the speed of an aircraft, you're really saying it moves at such and such speed relative to the air around it. On a moving aircraft carrier, the air is moving backwards relative to deck. On a spinning earth, the air is not moving relative to the ground.
Actually, the air generally does move relative to the earth.  It's called wind, and it's pretty common phenomenon.  In fact, airport runways are generally laid out to take advantage of the prevailing winds, but it's not unusual for pilots to have to deal with cross winds on take off or landing.

Don't pretend that you don't know what I meant. Obviously wind is the air moving relative to the ground. What I meant is that the air is not moving at rotational speeds relative to the ground. We don't see 1000 mph winds on the equator, and we certainly don't see completely still air at the poles. This is because air, for the most part, moves with the ground and wind speeds are nowhere near what we would expect if it it didn't.
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josan

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2015, 04:50:20 AM »
    The most important point in any observation is that the observer is on the earth hence that is his frame of reference he will not see things that say an observer independent of the earth system ( somewhere in space) might see.
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mikeman7918

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2015, 11:23:55 AM »
Quote from: josan on June 29, 2015, 04:50:20 AM
    The most important point in any observation is that the observer is on the earth hence that is his frame of reference he will not see things that say an observer independent of the earth system ( somewhere in space) might see.

Unfortunately, flat earthers can't comprehend the idea of having more then one frame of reference.  It probably has something to do with the fact that understanding it would make the theory they oppose become more likely.
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Dog

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2015, 12:10:55 AM »
Quote from: josan on June 29, 2015, 04:50:20 AM
    The most important point in any observation is that the observer is on the earth hence that is his frame of reference he will not see things that say an observer independent of the earth system ( somewhere in space) might see.

Frames of reference don't exist in the FE encyclopedia.

Velocity analysis goes like this: "You are standing on the ground fine, you get in a car, you go to 1000mph, why aren't you floating?!!?" or along those lines.
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Poko

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2015, 12:18:33 AM »
Quote from: Dog on June 30, 2015, 12:10:55 AM
Quote from: josan on June 29, 2015, 04:50:20 AM
    The most important point in any observation is that the observer is on the earth hence that is his frame of reference he will not see things that say an observer independent of the earth system ( somewhere in space) might see.

Frames of reference don't exist in the FE encyclopedia.

Velocity analysis goes like this: "You are standing on the ground fine, you get in a car, you go to 1000mph, why aren't you floating?!!?" or along those lines.

They might as well be saying "When you're standing still, you're not moving, but the ground is moving eastward at 1000 mph. Therefore, you should be able to stand still in Birmingham and arrive in Phoenix less than two seconds later"
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Rayzor

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2015, 12:29:48 AM »
Quote from: Poko on June 30, 2015, 12:18:33 AM
Quote from: Dog on June 30, 2015, 12:10:55 AM
Quote from: josan on June 29, 2015, 04:50:20 AM
    The most important point in any observation is that the observer is on the earth hence that is his frame of reference he will not see things that say an observer independent of the earth system ( somewhere in space) might see.

Frames of reference don't exist in the FE encyclopedia.

Velocity analysis goes like this: "You are standing on the ground fine, you get in a car, you go to 1000mph, why aren't you floating?!!?" or along those lines.

They might as well be saying "When you're standing still, you're not moving, but the ground is moving eastward at 1000 mph. Therefore, you should be able to stand still in Birmingham and arrive in Phoenix less than two seconds later"

Samuel Shenton,  was a signwriter from Dover,  who founded the modern Flat Earth Movement  1956,  after trying to patent a system whereby you would hop in an airship,  rise up and wait for a while while the earth rotated underneath you at 1000 mph,   he couldn't understand why it didn't work.   ;D

I've noticed that Flat Earthers have trouble with spatial reasoning,  so failure to grasp relative motion is not all that surprising. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Shenton    There are some interesting bits of info on Samuel Shenton in the flat earth wiki.
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charles bloomington

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Re: Airplanes taking off and landing on a spinning earth.
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2015, 01:07:30 AM »
What a bunch of blow hard try hards.Trains planes & parrot talk . Explain the inertia . Magic Gravity Ball - physical experience: " class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">
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