HF radio communications beyond LOS and the horizon

Greetings.

In my day to day job I am able to commuicate with distant radio stations beyond the horizon and out of line of sight using ground wave propagation. Wave propagation theory suggests that radio waves follow the ground and the curvature of the earth, ie the signal I am transmitting is curving around the earth to reach distant stations beyond line of sight.

Obviously this does not fit FET. Discuss.

Note I know you can transmit to stations thousands of KMs away using sky waves also, but I am talking specifically about ground waves.

Ground wave and Sky wave propagation both prove the earth is FLAT because how can a radio wave travel past the horizon if the earth is a Ball? It would just go off into space....

The ionosphere is really the Firmament, made of a Mirror-like Metal, which is why it behaves like it does.

 pRophet,

I don't know how high the antennas are, but i would think ground waves would propagate better on a flat Earth then a round one.

Yendor

Ground wave and Sky wave propagation both prove the earth is FLAT because how can a radio wave travel past the horizon if the earth is a Ball? It would just go off into space....

The ionosphere is really the Firmament, made of a Mirror-like Metal, which is why it behaves like it does.

Experiment you can do to prove waveforms follow curved topography and do not travel in straight lines:

1. Fill a bowl with water

2. Place a floating object (a ball of some sort would be most suitable) in the bowl

3. Tap the surface of the water to create ripples.

4. Observe what happens to the ripples when they reach the floating object. Does the object block the ripples or do they go around it?

Similarly ground waves follow undulations in the ground, and on a larger scale, the curvature of the earth.

Visual representation of the effect I previously described.

So, let me get this straight.  You can communicate farther than RET predicts, and your BS scientists came up with a BS answer why this is, and somehow you are trying to make the claim that this is proof for a round Earth?  Would the simplest answer not be that there is no curve and that the waves are simply moving in a straight line?  Perhaps you would believe it if a scientists told you that Santa is real too?

How does that make no sense to you?
Let me explain it for you. Radio waves extend from a point in a circle, not a straight line. A portion of a circle is a curved line, as that diagram represents.
You fail to grasp such a simple concept, jroa. This is elementary school stuff.

How does that make no sense to you?
Let me explain it for you. Radio waves extend from a point in a circle, not a straight line. A portion of a circle is a curved line, as that diagram represents.
You fail to grasp such a simple concept, jroa. This is elementary school stuff.

What about any of that would not work on a flat Earth? 

So, let me get this straight.  You can communicate farther than RET predicts,

Not sure where you got that idea from. RET predicts I can communicate as far as I can communicate. That's what I'm saying... In the FET model I would be able to transmit at shorter distances than what I can now.

I'm not even getting into solar activity and how that effects radio communications. Have yet to hear any FET explanation as to how frequency degradation differing at different locations on the earth works with a flat earth.

and your BS scientists came up with a BS answer why this is, and somehow you are trying to make the claim that this is proof for a round Earth?  Would the simplest answer not be that there is no curve and that the waves are simply moving in a straight line?  Perhaps you would believe it if a scientists told you that Santa is real too?

Do the below to prove waveforms do not travel in straight lines:

1. Fill a bowl with water

2. Place a floating object (a ball of some sort would be most suitable) in the bowl

3. Tap the surface of the water to create ripples.

4. Observe what happens to the ripples when they reach the floating object. Does the object block the ripples or do they go around it?



You can also reproduce the above results at home using water. Again radio waves do not behave like a straight line. There is a reason they are called radio waves.

Welcome to the forum pRophet.  I see you have met the flat earthers, if you want to understand how truly thick skulked they are just take a look at the links in my forum signature and realize that after seeing that some people walked away thinking that Earth was flat.  If you really want to see flat earthers backed into a corner I suggest you bring up the fact that sunsets are impossible on a flat Earth.  That's always a fun one.

Please, this is circular reasoning at its finest.  In other words, you are saying that, "If the world is round, then the only explaination for my radio waves to curve around the world is that the world is round."    Please, come back when you actually have something that proves the shape of the Earth.  Or, please explain to us why your radio signal would not propagate on a flat Earth.  I am getting tiered of the same old round Earth fallacies and you roundies demanding explanations. 

You are still holding on to that model which can't explain time zones I see.

In other words, this whole thread can be summed up with, "emf waves spread out as they travel and this cannot happen on a flat Earth."  I fail to see the logic in that claim.  Someone, please explain to us dumb flat Earthers why waves would not spread out on a flat plane. 

I agree that ground wave would work on a round earth or a flat earth, however, sky wave only makes sense on a round earth.

In other words, this whole thread can be summed up with, "emf waves spread out as they travel and this cannot happen on a flat Earth."  I fail to see the logic in that claim.  Someone, please explain to us dumb flat Earthers why waves would not spread out on a flat plane.

Have you provided the details about satellite dish installation requested elsewhere?

Quote from: jroa on June 24, 2015, 02:59:42 AM

In other words, this whole thread can be summed up with, "emf waves spread out as they travel and this cannot happen on a flat Earth."  I fail to see the logic in that claim.  Someone, please explain to us dumb flat Earthers why waves would not spread out on a flat plane.

Have you provided the details about satellite dish installation requested elsewhere?

Have you ever thought about staying on topic and not derailing threads?  Consider this your final warning. 

I agree that ground wave would work on a round earth or a flat earth, however, sky wave only makes sense on a round earth.

Please, enlighten us all on how sky waves can not work if the Earth is flat. 

Quote from: Cartesian on June 24, 2015, 04:05:35 AM

I agree that ground wave would work on a round earth or a flat earth, however, sky wave only makes sense on a round earth.

Please, enlighten us all on how sky waves can not work if the Earth is flat.

they actually work because earth is flat.

Quote from: jroa on June 24, 2015, 01:57:31 PM

Quote from: Cartesian on June 24, 2015, 04:05:35 AM

I agree that ground wave would work on a round earth or a flat earth, however, sky wave only makes sense on a round earth.

Please, enlighten us all on how sky waves can not work if the Earth is flat.

they actually work because earth is flat.

Then why do things like radar have such a limited range?

Quote from: modestman on June 24, 2015, 01:59:38 PM

Quote from: jroa on June 24, 2015, 01:57:31 PM

Quote from: Cartesian on June 24, 2015, 04:05:35 AM

I agree that ground wave would work on a round earth or a flat earth, however, sky wave only makes sense on a round earth.

Please, enlighten us all on how sky waves can not work if the Earth is flat.

they actually work because earth is flat.

Then why do things like radar have such a limited range?

Mormon knows , ask him. whatever why they have limited range it has nothing to do with round earth.

Mormon knows , ask him. whatever why they have limited range it has nothing to do with round earth.

Then why does the range increase with altitude in a way that's expected on a round Earth?

Quote from: modestman on June 24, 2015, 03:34:34 PM

Mormon knows , ask him. whatever why they have limited range it has nothing to do with round earth.

Then why does the range increase with altitude in a way that's expected on a round Earth?

Because you don't see the curvature when you increase your altitude.
I can't answer your assumptions and I know there is a rational answer to all of your question without being depends of round earth.

Because you don't see the curvature when you increase your altitude.

Wrong:


That also didn't answer my question.

I can't answer your assumptions and I know there is a rational answer to all of your question without being depends of round earth.

You can see further as you get higher up and at the same time radar has further range.  That's why radars are always on top of tall towers.  This supports round Earth.

Quote from: modestman on June 24, 2015, 01:59:38 PM

Quote from: jroa on June 24, 2015, 01:57:31 PM

Quote from: Cartesian on June 24, 2015, 04:05:35 AM

I agree that ground wave would work on a round earth or a flat earth, however, sky wave only makes sense on a round earth.

Please, enlighten us all on how sky waves can not work if the Earth is flat.

they actually work because earth is flat.

Then why do things like radar have such a limited range?

The whole point of the OP was that radio waves following the curvature or the Earth is proof that it is round.  Now, you make the claim that radio waves not following the curvature of the Earth is proof that it is round.  You roundies contradict yourselves all the time.   

By the way, boy genius, have you ever heard of over the horizon radar? 

Quote from: mikeman7918 on June 24, 2015, 03:16:32 PM

Quote from: modestman on June 24, 2015, 01:59:38 PM

Quote from: jroa on June 24, 2015, 01:57:31 PM

Quote from: Cartesian on June 24, 2015, 04:05:35 AM

I agree that ground wave would work on a round earth or a flat earth, however, sky wave only makes sense on a round earth.

Please, enlighten us all on how sky waves can not work if the Earth is flat.

they actually work because earth is flat.

Then why do things like radar have such a limited range?

The whole point of the OP was that radio waves following the curvature or the Earth is proof that it is round.  Now, you make the claim that radio waves not following the curvature of the Earth is proof that it is round.  You roundies contradict yourselves all the time.   

By the way, boy genius, have you ever heard of over the horizon radar? 

It all depends on the characteristics of the frequency/wavelength of the radar system.
Different frequencies/wavelengths are used .
Some frequencies/wavelengths are used for line of sight and are  limited by the distance to the horizon.
Other frequencies/wavelengths are used for over the horizon radar.

Another proof of the curvature of the earth is.:
Why have crow's nests on ships placed on masts that are  higher than the bridge ? If the earth was flat why would you need crow's nests on ships if it wasn't necessary to see farther the higher you go ?....Because of the curvature of the earth ?

There is a simple formula to determine the distance to the horizon dependent on the height of the observer. It is a proven fact. On a flat earth the horizon would always be at an infinite distance.

Quote from: jroa on June 24, 2015, 05:48:06 PM

Quote from: mikeman7918 on June 24, 2015, 03:16:32 PM

Quote from: modestman on June 24, 2015, 01:59:38 PM

Quote from: jroa on June 24, 2015, 01:57:31 PM

Quote from: Cartesian on June 24, 2015, 04:05:35 AM

I agree that ground wave would work on a round earth or a flat earth, however, sky wave only makes sense on a round earth.

Please, enlighten us all on how sky waves can not work if the Earth is flat.

they actually work because earth is flat.

Then why do things like radar have such a limited range?

The whole point of the OP was that radio waves following the curvature or the Earth is proof that it is round.  Now, you make the claim that radio waves not following the curvature of the Earth is proof that it is round.  You roundies contradict yourselves all the time.   

By the way, boy genius, have you ever heard of over the horizon radar? 

It all depends on the characteristics of the frequency/wavelength of the radar system.
Different frequencies/wavelengths are used .
Some frequencies/wavelengths are used for line of sight and are  limited by the distance to the horizon.
Other frequencies/wavelengths are used for over the horizon radar.

Another proof of the curvature of the earth is.:
Why have crow's nests on ships placed on masts that are  higher than the bridge ? If the earth was flat why would you need crow's nests on ships if it wasn't necessary to see farther the higher you go ?....Because of the curvature of the earth ?

There is a simple formula to determine the distance to the horizon dependent on the height of the observer. It is a proven fact. On a flat earth the horizon would always be at an infinite distance.

Why are you quoting me?  I am not the one making erroneous claims, like Mikeman does so often. 

Oh, and by the way, in the crows nest, you can see over higher waves.  Bam throws down the mike.  Lol jk

The truth of the matter is simply that earth is a globe and not a disc. There is no doubt about that.
The curvature of the earth has to be taken into account to determine the distance to the horizon that the lookout in the crow's nest can see . Same thing for the range of the radar. That is a well known fact.

Of course that is how it is in the real world but you have to realize that after all this is The Flat Earth Society.

Show me any Navy or any activity connected with oceanic navigation that uses maps based on the so-called flat earth map of the entire earth. One school of thought is that there is no flat earth map. One other is the claim that the Azimuthal Equidistant Projection of the globe is the flat earth map. Both are false representations and no way usable in the real world.

Quote from: mikeman7918 on June 24, 2015, 03:16:32 PM

Quote from: modestman on June 24, 2015, 01:59:38 PM

Quote from: jroa on June 24, 2015, 01:57:31 PM

Quote from: Cartesian on June 24, 2015, 04:05:35 AM

I agree that ground wave would work on a round earth or a flat earth, however, sky wave only makes sense on a round earth.

Please, enlighten us all on how sky waves can not work if the Earth is flat.

they actually work because earth is flat.

Then why do things like radar have such a limited range?

The whole point of the OP was that radio waves following the curvature or the Earth is proof that it is round.  Now, you make the claim that radio waves not following the curvature of the Earth is proof that it is round.  You roundies contradict yourselves all the time.   

By the way, boy genius, have you ever heard of over the horizon radar? 

OTH radar uses HF. The premise is that HF follows the curvature of the Earth (did you happen to notice the title of the topic?) so it can work beyond line of sight (LOS), which means over the horizon (OTH). Shorter wavelengths, like conventional radar, doesn't.

Aren't you the one who says he's an expert on RF communications because you have military training and degrees 'n' stuff? It's one thing to claim expertise - that's really easy to do. You'd help your cred if you actually made comments that demonstrate that you know anything about it.

The whole point of the OP was that radio waves following the curvature or the Earth is proof that it is round.  Now, you make the claim that radio waves not following the curvature of the Earth is proof that it is round.  You roundies contradict yourselves all the time.   

By the way, boy genius, have you ever heard of over the horizon radar? 

When did I say that the radar's range cut out at the horizon line?  This effect of waves bending around Earth's curvature can only go so far and it does still increase range to make the radar higher off the ground.

Quote from: inquisitive on June 24, 2015, 04:43:18 AM

Quote from: jroa on June 24, 2015, 02:59:42 AM

In other words, this whole thread can be summed up with, "emf waves spread out as they travel and this cannot happen on a flat Earth."  I fail to see the logic in that claim.  Someone, please explain to us dumb flat Earthers why waves would not spread out on a flat plane.

Have you provided the details about satellite dish installation requested elsewhere?

Have you ever thought about staying on topic and not derailing threads?  Consider this your final warning.

(just a reminder for you)