The sun, the universe, and other logical phallacies with the FE.

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Rayzor

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Re: The sun, the universe, and other logical phallacies with the FE.
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2015, 10:45:49 PM »
James is the only current planist I know of who proposes the sun and moon are discs. It's hardly representative of the movement.

You might want to change the wiki then, because it clearly seems to imply that that's the widely held model. Many FE'ers on the forum seem to agree as well.

What model do you adhere to, Mr. Ski?


I don't have control of the wiki, nor do I know who is espousing currently as I visit only infrequently these days. I only know that of the members of good standing that I am aware of, James is the only one that holds the sun and moon to be discs.

Prominent flat earther,  Rowbotham  thought the moon was a transparent luminous body,    Eric Dubay thinks the moon is a disk.   misconceptions and dumb ideas of all types abound within the flat earth community.

Some posters on here thought  the moon was below the clouds,  others think the sun is just a few thousand miles away.   
 
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Re: The sun, the universe, and other logical phallacies with the FE.
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2015, 02:31:45 AM »

Antonin is clearly a young earth creationist as he doesn't accept evolution.


This is a blanket statement which may be true of Antonin but it is certainly not true for me. I don't subscribe to either.

Both beliefs, and that's what they are, beliefs, are tantamount to religion.

Are you guys talking about evolution within a specific species or evolution from say an ape to a man?

Both are the same process, the only distinction is scale.

If the latter I can honestly call you people raving mad

Do you call 98% of the scientific community raving mad?

there is exactly ZERO evidence of cross species evolution

That is completely untrue. There is tons of evidence, you just choose to ignore it.

it's like a dog evolving in to a cat!

You don't really understand evolution, do you?


I know of one researcher that examined and questioned the generally accepted model of evolution in great detail, and that was the late Lloyd Pie. His presentations on human origins are very compelling. Not saying this is irrefutable proof of anything, but it throws up legitimate questions on evolution.

Whilst I agree that evolution is most likely a true occurrence within a species like a giraffe probably has a long neck because the ones that had the longest necks could reach the taller trees and survive so over time the shorter necked ones died out but the notion that an ape can evolve in to an entirely different species is a whole other ball game and not a question of scale.

The 98% of scientists that believe in evolution have a vested interest in their "belief" namely their tenure. You know what happens to scientists that challenge the doctrines don't you? No more pay-cheque  :-X

If you know of evidence that irrefutably proves cross species evolution then please share it. This is a genuine request as the research I have done suggests there is a missing link and Darwin himself is quoted as saying.....

"WHY, if species have descended from other species by insensibly fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined?
Innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?
Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links?
Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory".(Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species, pp. 172, 280)

Darwin said, quite rightly that there should be "innumerable transitional forms" As far as I know there have been found exactly ZERO.

Another interesting quote from the man himself

“To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree.”

Don't get me wrong, the notion of creationism in my opinion is just as absurd.

I keep an open mind on the matter. Accepting either theory with no proof is religious insanity IMO especially when there are other compelling theories out there.  ;)


Re: The sun, the universe, and other logical phallacies with the FE.
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2015, 05:41:38 AM »
James is the only current planist I know of who proposes the sun and moon are discs. It's hardly representative of the movement.
jroa has proposed this, though his arguments are usually rather, urhmm, shall we say fluid?

As the "movement" these days seems to consist of about 4 people, then I'd say it represents quite a large proportion of it.
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kman

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Re: The sun, the universe, and other logical phallacies with the FE.
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2015, 08:47:24 AM »
I know of one researcher that examined and questioned the generally accepted model of evolution in great detail, and that was the late Lloyd Pie. His presentations on human origins are very compelling. Not saying this is irrefutable proof of anything, but it throws up legitimate questions on evolution.

Are you talking abou the "Aliens mated with humans" guy? You can't seriously believe in that.

Whilst I agree that evolution is most likely a true occurrence within a species like a giraffe probably has a long neck because the ones that had the longest necks could reach the taller trees and survive so over time the shorter necked ones died out but the notion that an ape can evolve in to an entirely different species is a whole other ball game and not a question of scale.

Why exactly is it a whole other ball game? Lets look at the giraffe example:

So the ancestor of the giraffe, and ones with longer necks survived, blah blah blah, you know how it goes. But lets say that the ecosystem is changing, it used to consist of scrubs, but know it's mostly tall trees and grass. Some of the proto-giraffe population evolves longer necks to eat leaves from the trees, but some of the giraffes evolve to eat the grass, and don't need a longer neck.The proto-giraffes who are growing necks also have physiological changes. The heart gets stronger to pump blood up to the neck, the stomach changes to process leaves, and soon, the whole animal is different. It has a different body, a different skeleton, and a different lifestyle. It can't mate with the proto-giraffes that ate grass, and we have 2 completely different species. Why is that so hard to fathom?


The 98% of scientists that believe in evolution have a vested interest in their "belief" namely their tenure. You know what happens to scientists that challenge the doctrines don't you? No more pay-cheque  :-X

Challenging the doctrine is exactly what science is. It happens all the time with no one losing pay or prestige. For example, the scientific community used to believe that dinosaurs were slow, cold blooded lizards. People challenged that view, and the doctrine shifted to what it is today. No one was harmed, it was just science.

Additionally, all the rich creationists are more than willing to hand out dough to anyone disproving evolution.

If you know of evidence that irrefutably proves cross species evolution then please share it. This is a genuine request as the research I have done suggests there is a missing link and Darwin himself is quoted as saying.....

"WHY, if species have descended from other species by insensibly fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined?
Innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?
Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links?
Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory".(Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species, pp. 172, 280)

Darwin said, quite rightly that there should be "innumerable transitional forms" As far as I know there have been found exactly ZERO.

Lol, that is completely false. We have discovered a lot more fossils since darwin, and we actually have thousands of traditional forms, if you care to do any research. The evolution of horses is fairly well documented, along with the evolution of whales. We have transitional forms for a lot of the hominid lineage, along with Sarcopterygian to tetrapod, therapods to avian therapods, and quite a lot others, if you care to use google.


“To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree.”


This is a much cited quote that requires some context. He actually goes on to say

"Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself first originated; but I may remark that several facts make me suspect that any sensitive nerve may be rendered sensitive to light, and likewise to those coarser vibrations of the air which produce sound. (Darwin 1872, 143-144)"

In fact, now a days we have a good understanding of how the eye evolved, and have evidence of intermediate forms in nature.

especially when there are other compelling theories out there.  ;)

Such as? I've only really had exposure to creationism and evolution, I haven't heard of any alternatives.
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Re: The sun, the universe, and other logical phallacies with the FE.
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2015, 10:54:48 PM »
The 98% of scientists that believe in evolution have a vested interest in their "belief" namely their tenure. You know what happens to scientists that challenge the doctrines don't you? No more pay-cheque  :-X
Yes, they may lose their jobs. Going against a Theory supported by the entire field of biology tends to harm one's credibility. But hey, it isn't easy resisting outside pressure, which is why some of the greatest scientists who changed their fields faced staunch criticism and even abuse. People like Galileo, Darwin, and Einstein had to convince others, despite prevailing public and scientific opinions, that they were right. And they did, because their arguments had validity which convinced even those who opposed them.

Creationism is the remainder of what was once commonly accepted belief. It lingers even after being put to rest because some of those of religious faith refuse to accept that it is wrong.

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If you know of evidence that irrefutably proves cross species evolution then please share it.
I can't provide you with irrefutable proof because there is no proof that you will accept. That doesn't mean that there isn't strong evidence which is only explicable through evolution. There is.

But for me, the existence of a phylogenetic tree based upon genes themselves is conclusive. Not only is there fossil evidence of creatures with functional features in a transitional state between dinosaur and avian, and aquatic and terrestrial life, the genes themselves support a branching model of common descent.

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"WHY, if species have descended from other species by insensibly fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined?
Innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?
Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links?
Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory".(Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species, pp. 172, 280)

Why indeed? Perhaps if you were to read the rest of the chapter in which he addresses the very questions you so selectively quote, you might find your answer...
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/origin/chapter6.html
"To sum up, I believe that species come to be tolerably well-defined objects, and do not at any one period present an inextricable chaos of varying and intermediate links: firstly, because new varieties are very slowly formed, for variation is a very slow process, and natural selection can do nothing until favourable variations chance to occur, and until a place in the natural polity of the country can be better filled by some modification of some one or more of its inhabitants. And such new places will depend on slow changes of climate, or on the occasional immigration of new inhabitants, and, probably, in a still more important degree, on some of the old inhabitants becoming slowly modified, with the new forms thus produced and the old ones acting and reacting on each other. So that, in any one region and at any one time, we ought only to see a few species presenting slight modifications of structure in some degree permanent; and this assuredly we do see."

But also keep in mind that while Darwin's insight into evolution was revolutionary and astoundingly thorough, he wasn't right about every part of it. Darwin's initial foray isn't representative of modern thought.

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Darwin said, quite rightly that there should be "innumerable transitional forms" As far as I know there have been found exactly ZERO.
Tiktaalik.

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Another interesting quote from the man himself

“To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree.”
Yet again, you cite at a quote which you obviously haven't read in its original context, because you aren't actually researching Evolution itself. All you are doing is reading what the opposition presents you. In this case, those who provided you with the quote deliberately omitted the rest of the paragraph:
"When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei, as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certainly the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself originated; but I may remark that, as some of the lowest organisms, in which nerves cannot be detected, are capable of perceiving light, it does not seem impossible that certain sensitive elements in their sarcode should become aggregated and developed into nerves, endowed with this special sensibility."

Re: The sun, the universe, and other logical phallacies with the FE.
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2015, 08:50:21 AM »

Are you talking abou the "Aliens mated with humans" guy? You can't seriously believe in that.

That is a part of the theory yes and supposedly occurred much later on but AFAIK Lloyd Pie does not delve into this too much. He merely points out the problems with evolution. His presentation "Everything you know is wrong" is extremely compelling, especially regarding the apparent sudden leaps in evolution and the absurdities of the ape to man theory.

His starchild skull presentation is also very interesting.

Genetic modification is the crux of the theory and there is compelling evidence to support it.

Again I'm not saying this is what I believe so don't try to insult or belittle me as the middleman but if you don't know the theory in its entirety you cannot make an informed judgement on its validity. To dismiss it without even considering it because of the word "alien" would be childish.

The theory has been called "interventionism" or "the interference theory"

I am not one to blindly accept any theory but I do like to know them all instead of settling on the one the state shoves down my throat.


Challenging the doctrine is exactly what science is.

You must be kidding. The doctrine is whatever the state say it is and doctrine of evolution is here to stay. This is called scientism and it is a religion equalling creationism.

Here's another truth that science WILL NOT accept.

Cannabis cures cancer.

And a truth that most people never even consider.

Taxation IS slavery.

Lol, that is completely false. We have discovered a lot more fossils since darwin, and we actually have thousands of traditional forms, if you care to do any research. The evolution of horses is fairly well documented, along with the evolution of whales. We have transitional forms for a lot of the hominid lineage, along with Sarcopterygian to tetrapod, therapods to avian therapods, and quite a lot others, if you care to use google.

Funny how Darwin never found any and even commented on the lack thereof and then WHAM all of a sudden we start finding them left right and centre. A little convenient IMO.


This is a much cited quote that requires some context. He actually goes on to say

"Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself first originated; but I may remark that several facts make me suspect that any sensitive nerve may be rendered sensitive to light, and likewise to those coarser vibrations of the air which produce sound. (Darwin 1872, 143-144)"

Creationism is the remainder of what was once commonly accepted belief. It lingers even after being put to rest because some of those of religious faith refuse to accept that it is wrong.

How do you know? I doubt creationism as touted by the religions of the world but I can't say it is wrong and neither can you, unless you are an all knowing GOD???

All you are doing is reading what the opposition presents you. In this case, those who provided you with the quote deliberately omitted the rest of the paragraph:
"When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei, as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certainly the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself originated; but I may remark that, as some of the lowest organisms, in which nerves cannot be detected, are capable of perceiving light, it does not seem impossible that certain sensitive elements in their sarcode should become aggregated and developed into nerves, endowed with this special sensibility."

Seems all you are doing presenting what the opposition presents you too. Notice the subtle changes of words between yours and Kman versions? I've underlined them for you. Which version is the true Darwin quote?

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kman

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Re: The sun, the universe, and other logical phallacies with the FE.
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2015, 09:56:44 AM »

That is a part of the theory yes and supposedly occurred much later on but AFAIK Lloyd Pie does not delve into this too much. He merely points out the problems with evolution. His presentation "Everything you know is wrong" is extremely compelling, especially regarding the apparent sudden leaps in evolution and the absurdities of the ape to man theory.


Care to summarize some of his points?

His starchild skull presentation is also very interesting.

Not really. The starchild skull has human DNA, and that has been proven several times by several sources. It was simply from a child with hydrocephalus

Genetic modification is the crux of the theory and there is compelling evidence to support it.

Such as?

You must be kidding. The doctrine is whatever the state say it is and doctrine of evolution is here to stay. This is called scientism and it is a religion equalling creationism.

You're not responding to my points, your just reasserting. Just because you said something doesn't mean it's true.

Here's another truth that science WILL NOT accept.

Cannabis cures cancer.

There is evidence that cannabis can help combat certain types of cancer. Cannabis can also help alleviate some symptoms related to cancer. It doesn't mean it can cure cancer; you can't just smoke a joint and have the cancer disappear.

And these findings were made by real members of the scientific community; as far as I can tell they haven't been blacklisted.

Taxation IS slavery.

Ok...? What does this have to do with anything? Or are you just standing on your soapbox?

Funny how Darwin never found any and even commented on the lack thereof and then WHAM all of a sudden we start finding them left right and centre. A little convenient IMO.

It wasn't all of a sudden, it was over 150 years of slow, hard work by paleontologists. Do you think the fossils are fake or something?

And is there anything specific about the transitional fossils that you care to discuss, or are you just going to dismiss them out of hand?

How do you know? I doubt creationism as touted by the religions of the world but I can't say it is wrong and neither can you, unless you are an all knowing GOD???

Noah's ark is impossible. Intelligent design is probably not true, but you're right, there is no way of knowing.

Seems all you are doing presenting what the opposition presents you too. Notice the subtle changes of words between yours and Kman versions? I've underlined them for you. Which version is the true Darwin quote?

I don't know, it's possible that there are multiple editions. Read the book yourself. The point still stands.
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The Ellimist

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Re: The sun, the universe, and other logical phallacies with the FE.
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2015, 04:16:42 PM »
I am not one to blindly accept any theory but I do like to know them all instead of settling on the one the state shoves down my throat.
The "state" only teaches theories that have been proven to be true. If alternative theories are valid, why aren't they being taught?

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You must be kidding. The doctrine is whatever the state say it is and doctrine of evolution is here to stay. This is called scientism and it is a religion equalling creationism.
LOL what? No prominent government is interested in anything scientific unless it's nuclear. Scientism isn't even a word.

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Cannabis cures cancer.
LOL then how did Bob Marley die of melanoma?

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Taxation IS slavery.
This has what to do with science?

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Funny how Darwin never found any and even commented on the lack thereof and then WHAM all of a sudden we start finding them left right and centre. A little convenient IMO.
They didn't just start popping up, see kman's comment

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How do you know? I doubt creationism as touted by the religions of the world but I can't say it is wrong and neither can you, unless you are an all knowing GOD???
You can't say it's right either, and if you can't say it's right, it might as well be wrong. All the evidence says humans evolved from apes, and nothing implies that humans were specifically engineered by God or aliens.
Additionally, we cannot entirely rule out the nefarious effects of demons, spirits, gnomes, and wizards on our society's ability to comprehend our flat earth as it really is. 

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homo superior

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Re: The sun, the universe, and other logical phallacies with the FE.
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2015, 04:49:12 PM »
Cannabis cures cancer.

Yeah, no evidence support this. It helps with pain management, which can help improve the living conditions of people suffering from cancer. That's all we really know for now.

Re: The sun, the universe, and other logical phallacies with the FE.
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2015, 08:41:04 AM »
The "state" only teaches theories that have been proven to be true. If alternative theories are valid, why aren't they being taught?


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LOL what? No prominent government is interested in anything scientific unless it's nuclear. Scientism isn't even a word.

It appears you answered your own question.

From the Oxford English dictionary: Scientism: Thought or expression regarded as characteristic of scientists. Excessive belief in the power of scientific knowledge and techniques.


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LOL then how did Bob Marley die of melanoma?

Smoking the stuff will not work. You need to process it into oil and take it orally. I've seen it work.

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This has what to do with science?

Nothing. I was highlighting that most people go through life without even questioning the simple fact that taxation is slavery. The confiscation of a percentage of the product of ones labour under threat of violence, carefully indoctrinated from generation to generation.

This simple logic alludes almost everyone. Also most people don't realise that the national debt of their country is mathematically impossible to pay back and will increase exponentially to the absolute detriment of our children.

They don't come out and tell you this though do they? What else don't they tell you?

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They didn't just start popping up, see kman's comment

They must've. See Darwins quote.

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You can't say it's right either, and if you can't say it's right, it might as well be wrong. All the evidence says humans evolved from apes, and nothing implies that humans were specifically engineered by God or aliens.

That's some weird logic there pal. And the missing link is where?

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The Ellimist

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Re: The sun, the universe, and other logical phallacies with the FE.
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2015, 02:27:09 PM »
It appears you answered your own question.
No, I didn't answer my own question. My question was why aren't alternative theories taught if they aren't valid? The simple answer is because they aren't valid. Governments may not care about science as much as they should (I over-exaggerated), but they don't want kids to be taught bullshit in school.
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From the Oxford English dictionary: Scientism: Thought or expression regarded as characteristic of scientists. Excessive belief in the power of scientific knowledge and techniques.
How does the government display any of these characteristics?

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Smoking the stuff will not work. You need to process it into oil and take it orally. I've seen it work.
Then go make millions off it, if it's true. Or give it away for free. Anything than just asserting it cures cancer.

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Nothing.

Then it's irrelevant.

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They must've. See Darwins quote.
See kman's quote.
It wasn't all of a sudden, it was over 150 years of slow, hard work by paleontologists.
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That's some weird logic there pal
How? If you can't prove something true, then it probably isn't. Heck if you can't prove it, it definitely isn't science

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And the missing link is where?
We don't know. It might not have fossilized and it could just be gone. Doesn't matter anyways, it's not as if the entire theory is based on one fossil, there's a lot more evidence in favor of it.

Additionally, we cannot entirely rule out the nefarious effects of demons, spirits, gnomes, and wizards on our society's ability to comprehend our flat earth as it really is. 

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Misero

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Re: The sun, the universe, and other logical phallacies with the FE.
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2015, 02:35:38 PM »
So, dead cells from a cannabis plant can kill and remove cancerous cells with no damage to the body?
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