I'm convinced, FET is right - Yendor

BJ1234,

That's right, up is away from the ground and down is towards the ground. I can't argue with that. Is there a point you are trying to make here?

Yendor

BJ1234,

That's right, up is away from the ground and down is towards the ground. I can't argue with that. Is there a point you are trying to make here?

Yendor

So tell me, where you came up with what I bolded in your post?  Who said that there is no up or down on the earth?
Also, tell me how it is impossible for it to work on a globe with gravity?  If down is towards the ground and up is away, that means on a globe, down is towards the center of the globe and up is away from the center.

BJ1234,

You see I don't believe there is a thing called gravity holding people to the Earth. I believe you stick to the ground because you weigh more than the atmosphere, so you are forced down to Earth. Just like anything lighter then the atmosphere will float away. So, because of this these is no bottom to the Earth and if there was the people would have to be held to the ground and the blood would probably rush to there heads. Now I know you don't believe this and you think i'm probably nuts. But for now I think this is how it is.

Yendor

BJ1234,

You see I don't believe there is a thing called gravity holding people to the Earth. I believe you stick to the ground because you weigh more than the atmosphere, so you are forced down to Earth. Just like anything lighter then the atmosphere will float away. So, because of this these is no bottom to the Earth and if there was the people would have to be held to the ground and the blood would probably rush to there heads. Now I know you don't believe this and you think i'm probably nuts. But for now I think this is how it is.

Yendor

So what causes 'weight'? 

29silhouette,

"What causes weight"

For me it is probably eating too much and not much exercise. Weight is caused by atoms which make up matter. The more heavy matter is the more it weighs and the more it wants to stay on the ground. Water doesn't work the same way because of buoyancy. I'm a little heavy so I can float on the water better then someone skinny and who weighs less. This is how I see it working.

Yendor

29silhouette,

"What causes weight"

For me it is probably eating too much and not much exercise. Weight is caused by atoms which make up matter. The more heavy matter is the more it weighs and the more it wants to stay on the ground. Water doesn't work the same way because of buoyancy. I'm a little heavy so I can float on the water better then someone skinny and who weighs less. This is how I see it working.

Yendor

How do you explain something like a hot air balloon floating in the air?  It obviously weighs more than air.  Why does it float?

The more heavy matter is the more it weighs and the more it wants to stay on the ground.

What makes it 'heavy'?

Also, did you understand each point in my last post about the plane, or are you still thinking about it?

29silhouette,

Because if the air is hotter then the air around it, the balloon will rise up just like magic. The hot air is simply lighter then the colder air. See, I'm back to weight again.

I'm sorry I did not answer your post. I was getting worn down from answering all the other post. I'm working on my brakes right now and when I get a chance I will answer it...promise.
Yendor

29silhouette,

Because if the air is hotter then the air around it, the balloon will rise up just like magic. The hot air is simply lighter then the colder air. See, I'm back to weight again.

I'm sorry I did not answer your post. I was getting worn down from answering all the other post. I'm working on my brakes right now and when I get a chance I will answer it...promise.
Yendor

This is from your earlier post.

Wow.  Which of the following sentences doesn't make sense to you?

A.  A plane sitting on the runway is moving with the surface and the atmosphere, which in this case is 1000mph, but has a surface speed of 0mph.

    a. See, this is where I don’t understand you can say this and believe it. You say the surface is moving 1000mph, then you say the surface speed is 0mph. Maybe where you live, but around here the surface is going 0mph and most of the time the atmosphere blows in any direction. Sometime hard and sometime soft.

B.  A plane taking off and accelerating to 1000mph in the direction of Earth's rotation is moving an additional 1000mph (from the perspective of someone in space stationary watching the land below move by at 1000mph), but has a surface speed of 1000mph (hence it stays aloft via lift generated by the air moving past the wings).

   a. Yea, I’ve heard that perspective thing before. How do you know what it would look like from space, have you been there. From my perspective the surface is not spinning and how can anyone think the atmosphere is spinning with it going 1000mph. If the Earth was spinning like you say it would have been thrown away from the Earth many years ago.
   b. If a plane goes up and flies 1000mph then it is flying 1000mph. It doesn’t matter in which direction it flies. When they launch a rocket, you don’t hear them say, “the rocket is now going 800knots in respect to the earth going 1000mph.” I know about lift, I use to work for L3 corporation, ever heard of them?
C.  A plane taking off and accelerating to 1000mph in the opposite direction of Earth's rotation still has a surface speed of 1000mph, which means air is moving past the wings.  (it would appear stationary to the person in space while the surface below it moves by)

   a. I think I answered this above
D.  A plane taking off in a north or south direction has a 1000mph surface speed in the direction of travel, and is still moving west to east with the surface and atmosphere, which would be a west/east surface speed of 0mph.
   
a. Tell me this, If a plane is traveling 1000mph, going N->S, and the air around it is also going 1000mph W->E,(because the Earth spins that fast), would the pilot have to be constantly making course correction because the 1000mph wind would have a tendency to blow the plane east. I want you to really think about what 1000mph wind would feel like to a plane.

I’m sorry I didn’t get back with you sooner.
Yendor

From my perspective the surface is not spinning and how can anyone think the atmosphere is spinning with it going 1000mph. If the Earth was spinning like you say it would have been thrown away from the Earth many years ago. .
Yendor

You're forgetting a major factor. The centripetal force pushing an object away from the surface of spinning earth is around 0.03m/s2, whereas the force of gravity pulling closer to the surface is 9.81m/s2.

The force of gravity is over two orders of magnitude more powerful than centripetal force generated by earths spin. And this is at the equator. Centripetal force gets smaller and smaller the closer you get to the poles.

Quote from: Yendor on June 22, 2015, 12:05:28 PM

From my perspective the surface is not spinning and how can anyone think the atmosphere is spinning with it going 1000mph. If the Earth was spinning like you say it would have been thrown away from the Earth many years ago. .
Yendor

You're forgetting a major factor. The centripetal force pushing an object away from the surface of spinning earth is around 0.03m/s2, whereas the force of gravity pulling closer to the surface is 9.81m/s2.

The force of gravity is over two orders of magnitude more powerful than centripetal force generated by earths spin. And this is at the equator. Centripetal force gets smaller and smaller the closer you get to the poles.

Mainframes,

From Wikipedia:
The  Earth's centrifugal force counteracts the Earth's gravity to a small degree – up to a maximum of 0.3% at the Equator.
However, I don't believe the Earth is spinning so this is a moot point.

Yendor

I've mixed no frame of reference up. I can only realistically go by one frame of reference and that's by me being on the ground.

I'll make this easier for you people.
I'm on the ground and allegedly travelling at approx, 1000mph on your pathetic made up globe.
A plane on the tarmac is doing exactly the same.
I look at the plane and see it standing still.
The pilot of the planes sees me standing still.

 Ok, the plane takes off and flies against the rotation.....

Boom. You did it again. Stop mixing up your frames.

If you even consider that a rotating earth has jack shit to do with the plane, you have mixed up your frames. End of story.

29silhouette,
 See, I'm back to weight again.

So you really don't know.

This is from your earlier post.

Wow.  Which of the following sentences doesn't make sense to you?

A.  A plane sitting on the runway is moving with the surface and the atmosphere, which in this case is 1000mph, but has a surface speed of 0mph.

    a. See, this is where I don’t understand you can say this and believe it. You say the surface is moving 1000mph, then you say the surface speed is 0mph. Maybe where you live, but around here the surface is going 0mph and most of the time the atmosphere blows in any direction. Sometime hard and sometime soft.

B.  A plane taking off and accelerating to 1000mph in the direction of Earth's rotation is moving an additional 1000mph (from the perspective of someone in space stationary watching the land below move by at 1000mph), but has a surface speed of 1000mph (hence it stays aloft via lift generated by the air moving past the wings).

   a. Yea, I’ve heard that perspective thing before. How do you know what it would look like from space, have you been there. From my perspective the surface is not spinning and how can anyone think the atmosphere is spinning with it going 1000mph. If the Earth was spinning like you say it would have been thrown away from the Earth many years ago.
   b. If a plane goes up and flies 1000mph then it is flying 1000mph. It doesn’t matter in which direction it flies. When they launch a rocket, you don’t hear them say, “the rocket is now going 800knots in respect to the earth going 1000mph.” I know about lift, I use to work for L3 corporation, ever heard of them?
C.  A plane taking off and accelerating to 1000mph in the opposite direction of Earth's rotation still has a surface speed of 1000mph, which means air is moving past the wings.  (it would appear stationary to the person in space while the surface below it moves by)

   a. I think I answered this above
D.  A plane taking off in a north or south direction has a 1000mph surface speed in the direction of travel, and is still moving west to east with the surface and atmosphere, which would be a west/east surface speed of 0mph.
   
a. Tell me this, If a plane is traveling 1000mph, going N->S, and the air around it is also going 1000mph W->E,(because the Earth spins that fast), would the pilot have to be constantly making course correction because the 1000mph wind would have a tendency to blow the plane east. I want you to really think about what 1000mph wind would feel like to a plane.

I’m sorry I didn’t get back with you sooner.
Yendor

So none of them make any sense to you.  Ok, I didn't see that coming. 

A.  You're standing on a runway looking at a plane.  It's sitting there.  It's surface speed (the speed it's moving in relation to the surface) is zero.  The surface, air, plane, and you, are all moving 1000mph though.

b.  One rotation every 24hrs isn't going to through much off when there's more pull holding things to it.  Also, if you are suggesting you worked in a field that has something to do with all of this, then how do you have this much trouble comprehending a couple objects in motion?

C.  You didn't really answer it above, you only showed you don't understand it.

D.  If the surface is moving 1000mph E to W, and the air is matching that speed, and the plane is also matching that same E to W speed (all three are moving the same speed in relation to each other) while it travels N to S, then do some very simple math and let us know how much cross-wind it would be experiencing.

I'm probably going to regret this,  but here goes nothing. 

Yendor.   

From your frame of reference,  you are standing still.   You and everything around you is just relative to you, if the wind is blowing, then it's relative to you and where you are standing on the earth.   The sun rises in the east and sets in the west,  You are staying still,  the sun is moving not you.  That's your frame of reference,   You get into a plane and fly north south east west wherever you like, all motion is relative to that same frame of reference.   As far as you can ever tell,  the earth is not moving,  the sun, moon and stars are moving, not you,  not in your frame of reference.

That's it,  that's all you ever need to know.   

Except for one tiny little detail....   from the sun's frame of reference, it's the thing that isn't moving, it's the earth that is spinning instead, and it's because the earth is spinning we see the sun rise in the east and set in the west.   So from the sun's frame of reference you are spinning at 1000 mph at the equator,  can you feel it?  No you can't,  is there some experiment you could do to prove the earth is spinning,   yes, lots,   simplest is probably the foucault pendulum.  But that's another topic.

If you launch a rocket into space,  then the rotation of the earth is important,  it gives you an extra 1000 mph for free,  but down here in the atmosphere where everything is moving together you can't tell.

Hang about it get's scarier.   In the sun's frame of reference,  the earth orbits once per year, and is moving at 66,000 mph in orbit around the sun.  Do we feel it or notice it in any way, Nope, we see that the sun's path through the sky varies because of the axis being tilted, and this causes the seasons,  but,  that's it.

The orbital speed of planets can be a useful thing for sending spacecraft to outer planets,  by swinging past a planet in the same direction the planet is orbiting, we can get a gravity assist,  sometimes called a gravity slingshot, that get's us extra velocity for free.

Quote from: Mainframes on June 22, 2015, 03:30:22 PM

Quote from: Yendor on June 22, 2015, 12:05:28 PM

From my perspective the surface is not spinning and how can anyone think the atmosphere is spinning with it going 1000mph. If the Earth was spinning like you say it would have been thrown away from the Earth many years ago. .
Yendor

You're forgetting a major factor. The centripetal force pushing an object away from the surface of spinning earth is around 0.03m/s2, whereas the force of gravity pulling closer to the surface is 9.81m/s2.

The force of gravity is over two orders of magnitude more powerful than centripetal force generated by earths spin. And this is at the equator. Centripetal force gets smaller and smaller the closer you get to the poles.

Mainframes,

From Wikipedia:
The  Earth's centrifugal force counteracts the Earth's gravity to a small degree – up to a maximum of 0.3% at the Equator.
However, I don't believe the Earth is spinning so this is a moot point.

Yendor

Yes, I think you'll find that 0.3% of 9.81m/s² is about 0.03 m/s²......

To all you REers,   
I can't believe all the time you guys are spending so much time trying to convince me the world is actually spinning. I never expected that.

Everyone says, "from my frame of reference", I realize that. I don't live in outer space. That means things happening on Earth can very well effect me. I can feel the wind on a windy day. I can feel the ground move during Earth quakes. But, you tell me I can't feel the Earth spin and the air moving past me because I live on the Earth. Why shouldn't I be able to fly over the Earth going north or south and see stationary things on Earth below moving .288 mph east? I'm not attached to the earth while flying over. How come I can travel in a plane west or east the same distance and return back home the same amount of time. Someone mentioned the foucault pendulum. I've read it is hard to set up, has to be reset all the time and it uses a device that has to kick it to actually keep it moving. How does one know the kick is not causing it to rotate too. And how come it can sense the spin of the Earth and I can't. It has the same frame of reference as I do. I should be able to stand in one spot and see the earth spin around me. How about  Airy's failure experiment. That shows the Earth must not be spinning. Yes I am technical and i have spent many months developing products for the government that I know ended up on the scrap heap. And as a contractor you very seldom know what the purpose of the product is or were it is used. All you are given is a sales order, the spec. sheets, and a list of all the Mil specs you have to abide by and you only have one contact person between the customer and you. So yes I believe the government can pull off almost anything they want and not nearly as many people involved as you would think. I can go on and on about this, but until i'm in space looking down at the Earth something inside keeps telling me the Earth does not spin as you guys believe it does.

Yendor

Guys, Yendor is trolling, and scepti is trolling. Go argue with Jrowe, he actually believes his BS.

Everyone says, "from my frame of reference", I realize that. I don't live in outer space. That means things happening on Earth can very well effect me. I can feel the wind on a windy day. I can feel the ground move during Earth quakes. But, you tell me I can't feel the Earth spin and the air moving past me because I live on the Earth. Why shouldn't I be able to fly over the Earth going north or south and see stationary things on Earth below moving .288 mph east? I'm not attached to the earth while flying over. How come I can travel in a plane west or east the same distance and return back home the same amount of time.

That's simple: an object in motion stays in motion.  You are currently moving as Earth is rotating and going around the Sun, and if you lift off the ground then you are still moving.  It's like throwing a ball in a moving car, the car is moving and while the ball is in the air it's not in any way attached with the car yet it does not go flying back and crashing through the back window.

 Yes I am technical and i have spent many months developing products for the government that I know ended up on the scrap heap.

Yup, sounds like a typical Government contractor to me.

To all you REers,   
I can't believe all the time you guys are spending so much time trying to convince me the world is actually spinning. I never expected that.

Everyone says, "from my frame of reference", I realize that. I don't live in outer space. That means things happening on Earth can very well effect me. I can feel the wind on a windy day. I can feel the ground move during Earth quakes. But, you tell me I can't feel the Earth spin and the air moving past me because I live on the Earth. Why shouldn't I be able to fly over the Earth going north or south and see stationary things on Earth below moving .288 mph east? I'm not attached to the earth while flying over.

The atmosphere is also in your reference frame. It is also spinning with the ground. So yes, you are "attached ". If the atmosphere was stationary while the surface is spinning as you suggest, it would be a very windy day.

The fact of the matter is: you can't observe the spin because it's not in your reference frame. Not even if you leave the surface. You're still spinning. The only way you can observe it is by doing a very specific experiment, or going to another frame, like outer space.

The atmosphere is also in your reference frame. It is also spinning with the ground. So yes, you are "attached ". If the atmosphere was stationary while the surface is spinning as you suggest, it would be a very windy day.

The fact of the matter is: you can't observe the spin because it's not in your reference frame. Not even if you leave the surface. You're still spinning. The only way you can observe it is by doing a very specific experiment, or going to another frame, like outer space.

Dog, woof woof. Let's say for the sake of argument, that the earth is round but stationary, then problem solved! The issue with centrifical force should be saved for later because flat/round/hollow/etc + stationary/spinning are mutually exclusive for argumentative sake.

All of the other evidence like Eratosthenes experiment, circumnavigation, etc can be remedied by either a flat circle or sphere. However a sphere has two axis end points, whereas a 2d circle has just one axis end point. So, the real proof of pudding is to observe that there is or is not a south pole axis. If earth was a globe, you would see two different astronomical charts. These two astronomical charts of southern sky and northern sky have existed for millenniums. You would not see a completely different star landscape in south than north if earth is flat.

http://astro.wsu.edu/worthey/astro/html/im-sky/celestial-sphere-2.jpg

Quote from: Dog on June 23, 2015, 10:41:02 PM

The atmosphere is also in your reference frame. It is also spinning with the ground. So yes, you are "attached ". If the atmosphere was stationary while the surface is spinning as you suggest, it would be a very windy day.

The fact of the matter is: you can't observe the spin because it's not in your reference frame. Not even if you leave the surface. You're still spinning. The only way you can observe it is by doing a very specific experiment, or going to another frame, like outer space.

Dog, woof woof. Let's say for the sake of argument, that the earth is round but stationary, then problem solved! The issue with centrifical force should be saved for later because flat/round/hollow/etc + stationary/spinning are mutually exclusive for argumentative sake.

All of the other evidence like Eratosthenes experiment, circumnavigation, etc can be remedied by either a flat circle or sphere. However a sphere has two axis end points, whereas a 2d circle has just one axis end point. So, the real proof of pudding is to observe that there is or is not a south pole axis. If earth was a globe, you would see two different astronomical charts. These two astronomical charts of southern sky and northern sky have existed for millenniums. You would not see a completely different star landscape in south than north if earth is flat.

http://astro.wsu.edu/worthey/astro/html/im-sky/celestial-sphere-2.jpg

If the Earth were not spinning, other issues would arise in our everyday world.

I think he was asking you to stay on topic, Dog, and not wander off in another direction as you do when you are so often defeated.

I think he was asking you to stay on topic, Dog, and not wander off in another direction as you do when you are so often defeated.

The topic is "I'm convinced FET is right". I'm making a post showing why he is undoubtedly wrong.
Deal with it.

You going to ban me again for stating too many facts? Because i still haven't broken any rules. It wouldn't surprise me.
3...2....1....

Dog sounds like he is daring me to make him a marter.  However, we are professionals around here.  You will have to do worse than that in order for me to ban you again. 

Dog sounds like he is daring me to make him a marter.  However, we are professionals around here.  You will have to do worse than that in order for me to ban you again.

It's martyr.

Quote from: jroa on June 24, 2015, 07:41:27 PM

Dog sounds like he is daring me to make him a marter.  However, we are professionals around here.  You will have to do worse than that in order for me to ban you again.

It's martyr.

Not when you are typing on an LG tablet with auto correct enabled.  Are you gunning for a ban as well?

Quote from: Alpha2Omega on June 24, 2015, 08:54:42 PM

Quote from: jroa on June 24, 2015, 07:41:27 PM

Dog sounds like he is daring me to make him a marter.  However, we are professionals around here.  You will have to do worse than that in order for me to ban you again.

It's martyr.

Not when you are typing on an LG tablet with auto correct enabled.  Are you gunning for a ban as well?

I didn't know that helping correct one's English was a banning offense....?

Quote from: jroa on June 25, 2015, 06:55:37 PM

Quote from: Alpha2Omega on June 24, 2015, 08:54:42 PM

Quote from: jroa on June 24, 2015, 07:41:27 PM

Dog sounds like he is daring me to make him a marter.  However, we are professionals around here.  You will have to do worse than that in order for me to ban you again.

It's martyr.

Not when you are typing on an LG tablet with auto correct enabled.  Are you gunning for a ban as well?

I didn't know that helping correct one's English was a banning offense....?

I did not know you had such a hard time staying on topic.  Oh, wait, yes I did. 

I didn't know that helping correct one's English was a banning offense....?

Anything is a banning offense when it comes to jroa. I've experienced it first hand. I've been thinking about bringing it up to the Administrator recently.

Don't be surprised if I don't post for a while after this...