Poll

Do you consider Chess

To be just a game?
To be a reflection on life?
To have a deeper, more mystical meaning?
To be fundamental to understanding how a person deals with situations that arise?
To be principally a scientific conceptual idea based on numbers and probabilities?

Chess

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Chess
« on: June 18, 2015, 04:04:44 AM »
Greetings!

I thought this poll might be an interesting question to ask. I am a bit of Chess enthusiast, myself. And I have always wondered how other people regard the game. I realise, of course, that more people OUTSIDE the United States play the game than IN it. But, for all of you who do play, I would be curious, what is the perspective you have on the game? Do post your thoughts here, and answer the poll. Thanks.

I personally regard the game as both deeply mystical on one level, and on another level, intensely mathematical. I mean, I get how it can be a commentary on life and all that. I think that any of the answers would have been understandable. But to me, those two answers just seem to fit the bill a little better than the other three.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 04:10:23 AM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

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mathsman

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Re: Chess
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2015, 04:51:03 AM »
I notice that someone has voted for the fifth option involving probabilities. For the life of me I can't think what the probabilities in chess are.

Re: Chess
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2015, 05:01:47 AM »
MATHS, actually, that was me, that voted for two options, both Option 3 and 5. 5 may not be worded well. The probabilities in Chess rely on how likely it is that a player will see a particular move and act on it, as opposed to making another, less beneficial move. Chess is a combination of strategic moves and what we call "tempo moves". A "tempo move' is simply a move that keeps the game going, but adds nothing in the way of strategy to the board, and does not advance the game at all, as such.

So the likelyhood of whether a player will see a strategic move versus a tempo move and make it is what makes the game mathematical. Furthermore, as you are no doubt aware, computers are programmed to play Chess based on algorithmic formulae. I do not know the procedure, but there have been computers that have defeated reigning Chess Champions, and have been defeated by them. This would appear to indicate that the computer can be made approximately as strong as a human player.

There is yet more behind the whole math thing, but it gets very detailed, and FAR past the point of my comprehension. My maths skills probably aren't much better than about 9th Grade at this point. I always struggled with the subject.

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Itchy_Arris

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Re: Chess
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2015, 05:49:03 AM »
I play online chess. It needs very deep thinking but there's nothing mystical about it.

Having said that watching Kasparov at his peak had an unworldly vibe!
What goes up, must come down.

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mathsman

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Re: Chess
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2015, 06:07:36 AM »
Yaakov, I have to disagree with you about that. What you are describing is skill. Probabilities arise when there is incomplete information or the element of chance. A player chooses the best move according to their ability to see ahead and consider all of the possibilities.
Consider a strong club player playing against a beginner - the club player will always win (unless the beginner happens to be a prodigy); the difference in the skill level guarantees it.
Now consider a game between two players of near-equal ability. Over a short series of games the outcome may be in some (but not much) doubt but over a longer series of games the better player will emerge as the victor. This, of course, assumes that the players are sound in mind and body and don't make too many silly mistakes.
As for chess computers, once again this is a matter of skill; a two-fold skill: the ability of the programmer to produce software to play the game and the also their ability to assess the software through a chess-player's eyes. Chess computers have to work in a quasi-mathematical way because they can't work any other way. We don't work mathematically. Even mathematicians don't work mathematically. A chess player (or a mathematician) can have a flash of insight a 'eureka' moment if you will, a computer can't. Having mentioned the 'eureka' moment I should point out that the people who get them most often tend to be the people who have put in the most work (again, the most skilled).
Chess is a game of complete information and pure skill. That is its joy. It doesn't care where a person is from, what colour their skin, what religion, how rich their parents were etc. If you win at the chess board it is because in that game you were the better player.
If you want probabilities in a game try backgammon. I thoroughly recommend it.

Re: Chess
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2015, 06:26:34 AM »
Well, probabilities would be introduced to Backgammon by virtue of the dice, I suppose. I was taught how to play MANY many years ago when I was just a young boy, but I only played a few games, and don't know how to play at all today. You are right, I suppose, at least when you are dealing with good players in Chess. I was thinking in terms of probabilities because I was thinking for players across the board, in terms of all strengths. Clearly, a beginning player is going to miss some of those good moves, and make a bad move, or a not as good move. I'm not sure if I am making sense. I guess all I am saying is that you get a player who is likely to pass up some chances to kick some ass and take some names. For his opponent, that introduces an element of the unknown into the game in the sense that one would normally go into it assuming that enemy would always make the best move possible, but in this circumstance, that would not always be true.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Chess
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2015, 08:32:06 AM »
Chess is a great thinking game. It's a game that requires no luck, only mistakes of thought or observation, based on the mental state of the person's involved.

There are many variations of a first move in chess but there are usually only a few general first moves that the experts will play.
The way to scupper an expert...or take them out of their comfort zone, is to start off in a way that they don't expect, but being mindful of the sucker punches.
Then go aggressive in trying to sacrifice piece for piece which can take them out of their comfort zone.
I'm fairly good at chess but I haven't played for a long time. I prefer the long game rather than the short game. Speed chess irritates me.

Anyone who wants to pit their wits against me is welcome. I'm not saying I'm a genius at it, I'm simply saying that I can play it and give the best a game.

Re: Chess
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2015, 08:40:06 AM »
Hey, Skepti, if we can find a way to do it, I'm up for a game or two. I used to be damned good, but VERY rusty now. So give me a few days to refresh my skills. But maybe next week we can play if we can find a way to do so online or something.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Chess
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2015, 08:52:25 AM »
Hey, Skepti, if we can find a way to do it, I'm up for a game or two. I used to be damned good, but VERY rusty now. So give me a few days to refresh my skills. But maybe next week we can play if we can find a way to do so online or something.
Yeah, no problem, just let me know if you find a good internet board and I'll jump onto it and away we go. I'm rusty myself so we're both having to sharpen up. It'll be a good way to get back into it and maybe we can get a tournament going with the people on this forum or something; in time.

Re: Chess
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2015, 09:31:48 AM »
Ok, Skepti. Give me a day or two to look into the matter, and I shall get back to you by PM.

Re: Chess
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2015, 10:03:42 AM »
A cranky chess site for a cranky forum

http://www.chessvariants.org/

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Itchy_Arris

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Re: Chess
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2015, 10:23:37 AM »
Chess.com is good' that's where I play. It gives tutorials and scenarios as well as one-on-ones and comps.

I hear redhotpawn.com is good too.
What goes up, must come down.

Re: Chess
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2015, 11:25:53 AM »
Chess, ultimately, is just a game. However, like many things, the applications can vary. The way of thinking you have to develop to play chess at a high standard can inform how you think in all kinds of situations: to be always thinking a handful of moves ahead, to be keeping track of every likely outcome (I believe those are the probabilities referred to: high-class players have to be thinking about what their opponent will do, which they can't know for certain), that kind of skill is universally relevant.

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Pongo

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Re: Chess
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2015, 11:59:30 AM »
I personally regard the game as both deeply mystical on one level, and on another level, intensely mathematical.

What exactly do you find mystical about chess?

Re: Chess
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2015, 12:09:24 PM »
Its hard to explain, PONGO, but Chess is, on one hand, a deep reflection on a person's overall approach to existence. I tend to take a very military approach to everything in my life. When I play Chess, I play to destroy the other person's mind. It's the one thing where Bobby Fischer and I agreed. The man was one FUCKED up dude, but on that he was quite correct. When one plays the game, one focuses on the 64 squares of the board. There is nothing else to the universe. That is all. Strictly 64 squares and 32 pieces. That is it. If a person is a piece of protoplasm at your feet, then you haven't done your job well. It is honed, hard logic. I like that. I suppose the option could have been merged with option 2. Or perhaps its just option 2 but more intense. I think you get my meaning though.

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Pongo

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Re: Chess
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2015, 12:23:47 PM »
Its hard to explain, PONGO, but Chess is, on one hand, a deep reflection on a person's overall approach to existence. I tend to take a very military approach to everything in my life. When I play Chess, I play to destroy the other person's mind. It's the one thing where Bobby Fischer and I agreed. The man was one FUCKED up dude, but on that he was quite correct. When one plays the game, one focuses on the 64 squares of the board. There is nothing else to the universe. That is all. Strictly 64 squares and 32 pieces. That is it. If a person is a piece of protoplasm at your feet, then you haven't done your job well. It is honed, hard logic. I like that. I suppose the option could have been merged with option 2. Or perhaps its just option 2 but more intense. I think you get my meaning though.

I still don't see how that's "mystical."  How do you define "mystical?"

Re: Chess
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2015, 09:55:04 AM »
Chess is our game. I first handed down the knowledge of chess about 1546 years ago, and it is still played and discussed today because of its vast complexity. It is a reflection of the holiness of my realm, and the simplicity yet deep complexity of the whole of creation.

I need to check up on my current chess match with Shiva. It has been 6456 years since her last move... I hope everything is well with her.

I will check on that. Be back shortly, my children.

Re: Chess
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2015, 05:57:39 AM »
Chess is our game. I first handed down the knowledge of chess about 1546 years ago, and it is still played and discussed today because of its vast complexity. It is a reflection of the holiness of my realm, and the simplicity yet deep complexity of the whole of creation.

I need to check up on my current chess match with Shiva. It has been 6456 years since her last move... I hope everything is well with her.

I will check on that. Be back shortly, my children.

Shut up, God, you suck!

Re: Chess
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2015, 05:59:33 AM »

I need to check up on my current chess match with Shiva. It has been 6456 years since her last move... I hope everything is well with her.

I will check on that. Be back shortly, my children.

This dumbass does not even know that Shiva is a male god.


Re: Chess
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2015, 09:50:19 AM »
Shiva is both male and female, and has been identifying as female of late. I don't ask why.

My child, what arrogance compels you to question the word of the almighty? Do you have a seat in the heavens? A telescope into the world of the Gods? You are nothing but a single-celled organism to us, and you're lucky that I do not punish your insolence with a mighty lightning storm against your home. Yes, I do know where you live.

Now, I must get back to my chess match. If anyone wants to discuss advanced strategy, or perhaps help me win my game against Shiva... it would be much appreciated, and you would possibly be rewarded.

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Conker

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Re: Chess
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2015, 02:52:03 AM »
Chess is a game. As any game, it is ultimatelly a mathematical construct, in this case a canvas of cells and pieces that move acording to rules. Historically, it was meant as a representation of war itself, as the pieces defend their king. When the king dies, the game is over. Diferent people, like in any game, will make diferent decisions on a game. I don't understand the last option at all. So, I guess you could say its all of them, but just like any other game. Hex, dnd, Squares, Sudoku, Tetris, Call of Duty.
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Itchy_Arris

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Re: Chess
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2015, 04:13:43 AM »
So, who wants a game?

I am krunner at chess.com
What goes up, must come down.

Re: Chess
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2015, 04:34:35 AM »
So, who wants a game?

I am krunner at chess.com

I'll play you after I've had today, and three more days after it, to work on my skills.

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Itchy_Arris

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Re: Chess
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2015, 08:50:56 AM »
So, who wants a game?

I am krunner at chess.com

I'll play you after I've had today, and three more days after it, to work on my skills.

Don't worry about playing me, I'm rubbish. I haven't played for about a year.
What goes up, must come down.

Re: Chess
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2015, 09:02:00 AM »
Well, the reason I'm taking the extra time is to complete a week's worth of training in preparation for some matches with another person here. Being as I'm uncertain how good he is, I wanted to brush up. I haven't played regularly in some time. So I've spent the time playing the computer and analysing games. Best way to win, I figure.

Re: Chess
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2015, 01:03:29 PM »
Shiva is both male and female, and has been identifying as female of late. I don't ask why.

My child, what arrogance compels you to question the word of the almighty? Do you have a seat in the heavens? A telescope into the world of the Gods? You are nothing but a single-celled organism to us, and you're lucky that I do not punish your insolence with a mighty lightning storm against your home. Yes, I do know where you live.

Now, I must get back to my chess match. If anyone wants to discuss advanced strategy, or perhaps help me win my game against Shiva... it would be much appreciated, and you would possibly be rewarded.

No, he is male. He just likes to wear women's clothes to fool idiots like you. He is laughing his ass hard about your advances.

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FalseProphet

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Re: Chess
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2015, 10:58:13 AM »
AND he knows nothing about the history of chess.

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Misero

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Re: Chess
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2015, 03:21:19 PM »
What did I have for breakfast? Do you not want to prove your existence to us all?
I am the worst moderator ever.

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Then I look at threads about clouds not existing and I go back to posting and lurking. Lurk moar.

unreal game
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2015, 10:02:47 AM »
Chess is just a game. 

There is no counter-point to the real world whereby EVERYTHING is held in suspended animation while 1 person takes his sweet time planning his next move.  In reality, nothing waits for an actor to make his move. 

Anybody who thinks chess is a reflection of reality demonstrates to the world his inability to handle/recognize the real world before his very eyes.