There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.

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Yendor

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Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #90 on: June 18, 2015, 12:32:10 PM »
Come on Mr. Dog, I understand when you throw a ball up in a moving car you can catch it. This is not what i'm talking about. Simply tell me why I can't catch that same ball if I throw it up while on on the back of a jet plane, flying in the sky. The conditions are the same as the Earth only NOT relative to the Earth because of the planes height above the Earth, same speed and same direction, (west to east). Also, the plane is flying in the Earth's atmosphere on a very calm day, so it would feel the same atmosphere as a person feels on Earth, hardly any breeze at all. Please explain your answer in layman's terms.

Is the plane going the same speed as the Earth (464 m/s) in the same direction as the Earth is spinning?


Yes, Mr Dog. The plane is exactly simulating the Earth in all regards. In fact you could say it is geostationary. Only it is not in space. it is in the atmosphere. Because the person is riding on the back of the plane, they would be in the same system as they would be as if they were on the ground on a fine day. They should be able to stand up and walk around the plane's back without even falling down or be blown off by the wind. The samme as we do on Earth. Can you picture what I mean and do you think my assessment is correct?

Airplanes, with very few exceptions, can't hover, which is what you're describing. If you're on top of, say, a hovering V-22 Osprey, then, sure, you could stand up and walk around on top of it (presuming you can avoid the downwash and turbulence from the props, and the plane was steady enough). Why wouldn't you be able to do that?

Traditional fixed-wing aircraft generate the lift they need to stay aloft by flying through the air at high speed. If airspeed is zero, the plane falls out of the sky because there's no lift, so what you describe can't happen (absent a headwind strong enough to be above stall speed); even if the groundspeed is zero, your airspeed must be well above it.

You can stand and walk around in an open basket suspended below a hot-air balloon while aloft. Because those do hover if there's no wind, as you describe. You're riding along, suspended in the air, over a fixed spot on Earth. If there is wind, you move slowly over the Earth along with it.


Alpha2Omega,

You must have missed it when I said the plane was going the same speed as the Earth, around 1000 mph. In other words the plane was staying in sync with the Earth. Similar to a  DirecTV satellite, only in Earth's atmosphere.

No, I didn't miss that. It would be staying over a single spot on the surface. Isn't that "hovering"?

Quote
By matching Earth's speed and direction and because the atmosphere is going along with the Earth's spin, it should feel no different on the back of the plane as it does standing on Earth any normal calm day. Simply please tell me if you agree or not.

Since the surface of the Earth, the aircraft, and the air are all traveling in the same direction at the same speed, there's no relative motion between them, so no airflow above and below the airplane's wings, so the airplane's wings can develop no lift. How does it stay aloft?

I do not agree that the scenario you describe is possible with a conventional airplane, so the question is moot. I do agree that, at least in principle, this would be possible with a levitating platform like a hovercraft of some type, or aerostat (e.g. hot-air balloon); in those cases, then yes, you can stand and walk around. This is assuming no practical limitations like stability, or a helicopter's downwash.

Alpha2Omega,
Great, now we are getting somewhere. Your answer,

 "Since the surface of the Earth, the aircraft, and the air are all traveling in the same direction at the same speed, there's no relative motion between them, so no airflow above and below the airplane's wings, so the airplane's wings can develop no lift. How does it stay aloft?"

I certainly agree with you, there would be no relative motion. the plane would definitely not stay aloft. infact it wouldn't get off the ground.

However I'm still a little confused. I've see planes take off and land my whole life and I'm pretty sure some of them have gone the same speed as the earth, (1000 mph), the same direction as the Earth spinning and in the same Earth's atmosphere and I'm very sure their wings develope lift because I see them land.

Could any of this mean the Earth is not spinning at all and just sitting still? It must be or the planes we see everyday wouldn't be worth much if they can't fly.

Thanks for your honest answer. I've enjoyed our conversing.
Yendor
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
                              George Orwell

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Jet Fission

  • 519
  • NASA shill
Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #91 on: June 18, 2015, 12:46:40 PM »
Come on Mr. Dog, I understand when you throw a ball up in a moving car you can catch it. This is not what i'm talking about. Simply tell me why I can't catch that same ball if I throw it up while on on the back of a jet plane, flying in the sky. The conditions are the same as the Earth only NOT relative to the Earth because of the planes height above the Earth, same speed and same direction, (west to east). Also, the plane is flying in the Earth's atmosphere on a very calm day, so it would feel the same atmosphere as a person feels on Earth, hardly any breeze at all. Please explain your answer in layman's terms.

Is the plane going the same speed as the Earth (464 m/s) in the same direction as the Earth is spinning?


Yes, Mr Dog. The plane is exactly simulating the Earth in all regards. In fact you could say it is geostationary. Only it is not in space. it is in the atmosphere. Because the person is riding on the back of the plane, they would be in the same system as they would be as if they were on the ground on a fine day. They should be able to stand up and walk around the plane's back without even falling down or be blown off by the wind. The samme as we do on Earth. Can you picture what I mean and do you think my assessment is correct?

Airplanes, with very few exceptions, can't hover, which is what you're describing. If you're on top of, say, a hovering V-22 Osprey, then, sure, you could stand up and walk around on top of it (presuming you can avoid the downwash and turbulence from the props, and the plane was steady enough). Why wouldn't you be able to do that?

Traditional fixed-wing aircraft generate the lift they need to stay aloft by flying through the air at high speed. If airspeed is zero, the plane falls out of the sky because there's no lift, so what you describe can't happen (absent a headwind strong enough to be above stall speed); even if the groundspeed is zero, your airspeed must be well above it.

You can stand and walk around in an open basket suspended below a hot-air balloon while aloft. Because those do hover if there's no wind, as you describe. You're riding along, suspended in the air, over a fixed spot on Earth. If there is wind, you move slowly over the Earth along with it.


Alpha2Omega,

You must have missed it when I said the plane was going the same speed as the Earth, around 1000 mph. In other words the plane was staying in sync with the Earth. Similar to a  DirecTV satellite, only in Earth's atmosphere.

No, I didn't miss that. It would be staying over a single spot on the surface. Isn't that "hovering"?

Quote
By matching Earth's speed and direction and because the atmosphere is going along with the Earth's spin, it should feel no different on the back of the plane as it does standing on Earth any normal calm day. Simply please tell me if you agree or not.

Since the surface of the Earth, the aircraft, and the air are all traveling in the same direction at the same speed, there's no relative motion between them, so no airflow above and below the airplane's wings, so the airplane's wings can develop no lift. How does it stay aloft?

I do not agree that the scenario you describe is possible with a conventional airplane, so the question is moot. I do agree that, at least in principle, this would be possible with a levitating platform like a hovercraft of some type, or aerostat (e.g. hot-air balloon); in those cases, then yes, you can stand and walk around. This is assuming no practical limitations like stability, or a helicopter's downwash.

Alpha2Omega,
Great, now we are getting somewhere. Your answer,

 "Since the surface of the Earth, the aircraft, and the air are all traveling in the same direction at the same speed, there's no relative motion between them, so no airflow above and below the airplane's wings, so the airplane's wings can develop no lift. How does it stay aloft?"

I certainly agree with you, there would be no relative motion. the plane would definitely not stay aloft. infact it wouldn't get off the ground.

However I'm still a little confused. I've see planes take off and land my whole life and I'm pretty sure some of them have gone the same speed as the earth, (1000 mph), the same direction as the Earth spinning and in the same Earth's atmosphere and I'm very sure their wings develope lift because I see them land.

Could any of this mean the Earth is not spinning at all and just sitting still? It must be or the planes we see everyday wouldn't be worth much if they can't fly.

Thanks for your honest answer. I've enjoyed our conversing.
Yendor

The answer to your question is one you seem to be skipping over every time we answer.

The plane is already moving 1000mph since it is moving with the Earth on the ground. When it takes off, it doesn't matter whether it's going 1000mph in any direction, it's going to be moving 1000mph relative to Earth's surface. It's that simple. Since the rotation of Earth doesn't accelerate or decelerate, any object which is on the planet will not be magically stop moving if it jumps into the air, in the same way if you jump inside of a train that is not decelerating or accelerating, you will land on the same spot- you won't stop moving relative to the ground.
To a flat earth theorist, being a "skeptic" is to have confirmation bias.
Just because I'm a genius doesn't mean I know everything.

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mikeman7918

  • 5431
  • Round Earther
Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #92 on: June 18, 2015, 12:48:07 PM »
Alpha2Omega,
Great, now we are getting somewhere. Your answer,

 "Since the surface of the Earth, the aircraft, and the air are all traveling in the same direction at the same speed, there's no relative motion between them, so no airflow above and below the airplane's wings, so the airplane's wings can develop no lift. How does it stay aloft?"

I certainly agree with you, there would be no relative motion. the plane would definitely not stay aloft. infact it wouldn't get off the ground.

However I'm still a little confused. I've see planes take off and land my whole life and I'm pretty sure some of them have gone the same speed as the earth, (1000 mph), the same direction as the Earth spinning and in the same Earth's atmosphere and I'm very sure their wings develope lift because I see them land.

Could any of this mean the Earth is not spinning at all and just sitting still? It must be or the planes we see everyday wouldn't be worth much if they can't fly.

Thanks for your honest answer. I've enjoyed our conversing.
Yendor

An airplane taking off is not moving with the exact same velocity as the Earth, it's moving a little bit faster or slower or in a slightly different direction.  If an airplane is taking off going 200 miles per hour then it's velocity is 100 miles per hour different from the velocity of the Earth.  Try going in a moving train/plane/car and throwing a paper airplane in any direction, it will still fly just fine.
I am having a video war with Jeranism.
See the thread about it here.

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Yendor

  • 1676
Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #93 on: June 18, 2015, 01:14:46 PM »
Alpha2Omega,
Great, now we are getting somewhere. Your answer,

 "Since the surface of the Earth, the aircraft, and the air are all traveling in the same direction at the same speed, there's no relative motion between them, so no airflow above and below the airplane's wings, so the airplane's wings can develop no lift. How does it stay aloft?"

I certainly agree with you, there would be no relative motion. the plane would definitely not stay aloft. infact it wouldn't get off the ground.

However I'm still a little confused. I've see planes take off and land my whole life and I'm pretty sure some of them have gone the same speed as the earth, (1000 mph), the same direction as the Earth spinning and in the same Earth's atmosphere and I'm very sure their wings develope lift because I see them land.

Could any of this mean the Earth is not spinning at all and just sitting still? It must be or the planes we see everyday wouldn't be worth much if they can't fly.

Thanks for your honest answer. I've enjoyed our conversing.
Yendor

An airplane taking off is not moving with the exact same velocity as the Earth, it's moving a little bit faster or slower or in a slightly different direction.  If an airplane is taking off going 200 miles per hour then it's velocity is 100 miles per hour different from the velocity of the Earth.  Try going in a moving train/plane/car and throwing a paper airplane in any direction, it will still fly just fine.

Mr. Mikeman I agree with everything you wrote. But tell me this, If there was a way to pull an airplane up off the ground a few hundred feet and have it maintained the exact speed as the Earth spinning, going the same direction, (W to E), could you throw that paper airplane out the window and it would fly just fine. Now I realize you can't easily open a window, let's just pretend we had to break it out. I'm under the impression that if all conditions, relative to the Earth, are the same then the paper airplane will fly just fine. What do you think?
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
                              George Orwell

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Jet Fission

  • 519
  • NASA shill
Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #94 on: June 18, 2015, 01:21:53 PM »
Alpha2Omega,
Great, now we are getting somewhere. Your answer,

 "Since the surface of the Earth, the aircraft, and the air are all traveling in the same direction at the same speed, there's no relative motion between them, so no airflow above and below the airplane's wings, so the airplane's wings can develop no lift. How does it stay aloft?"

I certainly agree with you, there would be no relative motion. the plane would definitely not stay aloft. infact it wouldn't get off the ground.

However I'm still a little confused. I've see planes take off and land my whole life and I'm pretty sure some of them have gone the same speed as the earth, (1000 mph), the same direction as the Earth spinning and in the same Earth's atmosphere and I'm very sure their wings develope lift because I see them land.

Could any of this mean the Earth is not spinning at all and just sitting still? It must be or the planes we see everyday wouldn't be worth much if they can't fly.

Thanks for your honest answer. I've enjoyed our conversing.
Yendor

An airplane taking off is not moving with the exact same velocity as the Earth, it's moving a little bit faster or slower or in a slightly different direction.  If an airplane is taking off going 200 miles per hour then it's velocity is 100 miles per hour different from the velocity of the Earth.  Try going in a moving train/plane/car and throwing a paper airplane in any direction, it will still fly just fine.

Mr. Mikeman I agree with everything you wrote. But tell me this, If there was a way to pull an airplane up off the ground a few hundred feet and have it maintained the exact speed as the Earth spinning, going the same direction, (W to E), could you throw that paper airplane out the window and it would fly just fine.

By definition, the plane would not be moving at all. If something is literally moving the same speed as the ground is, well then that means you're standing still relative to the ground.

So, the plane would be falling from the sky very quickly.

But why does the plane have to be in the air? If the plane isn't moving relative to the ground, then why can't the plane just be sitting on the runway with the window open? Or better yet, why does there have to be a plane at all in that case? Your question makes little sense.

To a flat earth theorist, being a "skeptic" is to have confirmation bias.
Just because I'm a genius doesn't mean I know everything.

Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #95 on: June 18, 2015, 01:23:44 PM »
Alpha2Omega,
Great, now we are getting somewhere. Your answer,

 "Since the surface of the Earth, the aircraft, and the air are all traveling in the same direction at the same speed, there's no relative motion between them, so no airflow above and below the airplane's wings, so the airplane's wings can develop no lift. How does it stay aloft?"

I certainly agree with you, there would be no relative motion. the plane would definitely not stay aloft. infact it wouldn't get off the ground.

However I'm still a little confused. I've see planes take off and land my whole life and I'm pretty sure some of them have gone the same speed as the earth, (1000 mph), the same direction as the Earth spinning and in the same Earth's atmosphere and I'm very sure their wings develope lift because I see them land.

Could any of this mean the Earth is not spinning at all and just sitting still? It must be or the planes we see everyday wouldn't be worth much if they can't fly.

Thanks for your honest answer. I've enjoyed our conversing.
Yendor

An airplane taking off is not moving with the exact same velocity as the Earth, it's moving a little bit faster or slower or in a slightly different direction.  If an airplane is taking off going 200 miles per hour then it's velocity is 100 miles per hour different from the velocity of the Earth.  Try going in a moving train/plane/car and throwing a paper airplane in any direction, it will still fly just fine.

Mr. Mikeman I agree with everything you wrote. But tell me this, If there was a way to pull an airplane up off the ground a few hundred feet and have it maintained the exact speed as the Earth spinning, going the same direction, (W to E), could you throw that paper airplane out the window and it would fly just fine. Now I realize you can't easily open a window, let's just pretend we had to break it out. I'm under the impression that if all conditions, relative to the Earth, are the same then the paper airplane will fly just fine. What do you think?
I don't know if other people have this confusion but I certainly do. Do you mean the plane is moving at 1000mph relative to the Earth or not? Because if it is not relative, then as has been mentioned, the plane cannot fly as it is not moving, relative to the Earth.

?

Tom

Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #96 on: June 18, 2015, 01:48:40 PM »
I don't know if other people have this confusion but I certainly do. Do you mean the plane is moving at 1000mph relative to the Earth or not? Because if it is not relative, then as has been mentioned, the plane cannot fly as it is not moving, relative to the Earth.


The RE-believers believe that the earth, the atmosphere and everything in it is rotating at the same speed. But of course the higher you fly the faster you go.

They cannot prove it. That's why it's called a belief.

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Jet Fission

  • 519
  • NASA shill
Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #97 on: June 18, 2015, 01:52:03 PM »
I don't know if other people have this confusion but I certainly do. Do you mean the plane is moving at 1000mph relative to the Earth or not? Because if it is not relative, then as has been mentioned, the plane cannot fly as it is not moving, relative to the Earth.


The RE-believers believe that the earth, the atmosphere and everything in it is rotating at the same speed. But of course the higher you fly the faster you go.

They cannot prove it. That's why it's called a belief.

Nice to know you have no idea how southern circumpolar stars work on a flat Earth.

Also what do you mean "the higher you fly the higher you go?" And what does that have to do with a round Earth?
To a flat earth theorist, being a "skeptic" is to have confirmation bias.
Just because I'm a genius doesn't mean I know everything.

*

Yendor

  • 1676
Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #98 on: June 18, 2015, 01:55:55 PM »
Alpha2Omega,
Great, now we are getting somewhere. Your answer,

 "Since the surface of the Earth, the aircraft, and the air are all traveling in the same direction at the same speed, there's no relative motion between them, so no airflow above and below the airplane's wings, so the airplane's wings can develop no lift. How does it stay aloft?"

I certainly agree with you, there would be no relative motion. the plane would definitely not stay aloft. infact it wouldn't get off the ground.

However I'm still a little confused. I've see planes take off and land my whole life and I'm pretty sure some of them have gone the same speed as the earth, (1000 mph), the same direction as the Earth spinning and in the same Earth's atmosphere and I'm very sure their wings develope lift because I see them land.

Could any of this mean the Earth is not spinning at all and just sitting still? It must be or the planes we see everyday wouldn't be worth much if they can't fly.

Thanks for your honest answer. I've enjoyed our conversing.
Yendor

An airplane taking off is not moving with the exact same velocity as the Earth, it's moving a little bit faster or slower or in a slightly different direction.  If an airplane is taking off going 200 miles per hour then it's velocity is 100 miles per hour different from the velocity of the Earth.  Try going in a moving train/plane/car and throwing a paper airplane in any direction, it will still fly just fine.

Mr. Mikeman I agree with everything you wrote. But tell me this, If there was a way to pull an airplane up off the ground a few hundred feet and have it maintained the exact speed as the Earth spinning, going the same direction, (W to E), could you throw that paper airplane out the window and it would fly just fine.

By definition, the plane would not be moving at all. If something is literally moving the same speed as the ground is, well then that means you're standing still relative to the ground.

So, the plane would be falling from the sky very quickly.

But why does the plane have to be in the air? If the plane isn't moving relative to the ground, then why can't the plane just be sitting on the runway with the window open? Or better yet, why does there have to be a plane at all in that case? Your question makes little sense.



Thank you Jet Fission for your answer. I agree with you, to a casual observer it does make little sense. Let me explain. Your answer is the exact answer I was looking for because most believe the Earth is spinning and the atmosphere is spinning along with the Earth. You see, I don't believe this. Because you believe a plane sitting on the runway is the same as a plane flying 1000 mph, the same speed as the Earth, going west to east and flying in the same atmosphere we breath everyday would be in essence the same as sitting on the run way. Now really think about this, I'm sure you've watched jet planes take off and land alot of times. I would venture to say many planes have flown 1000 mph, probably the exact same speed as the Earth spinning. I'm sure they have done this flying west to east and we know they fly in the Earth's atmosphere. You have to realize this. So tell me again why these planes will fall from the sky.
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
                              George Orwell

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Dog

  • 1162
  • Literally a dog
Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #99 on: June 18, 2015, 01:56:56 PM »
Mr. Mikeman I agree with everything you wrote. But tell me this, If there was a way to pull an airplane up off the ground a few hundred feet and have it maintained the exact speed as the Earth spinning, going the same direction, (W to E), could you throw that paper airplane out the window and it would fly just fine. Now I realize you can't easily open a window, let's just pretend we had to break it out. I'm under the impression that if all conditions, relative to the Earth, are the same then the paper airplane will fly just fine. What do you think?

If it "maintained the exact speed as the Earth spinning, going the same direction" then the plane is not moving relative to the ground. It's just floating. If your plane can hover, so it doesn't crash, then yeah the paper airplane you throw out the window will fly just fine. Why wouldn't it? It would be the same as throwing a paper airplane while standing on the ground.

But of course the higher you fly the faster you go.

And why would you think that....?

?

Tom

Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #100 on: June 18, 2015, 02:06:43 PM »
I don't know if other people have this confusion but I certainly do. Do you mean the plane is moving at 1000mph relative to the Earth or not? Because if it is not relative, then as has been mentioned, the plane cannot fly as it is not moving, relative to the Earth.


The RE-believers believe that the earth, the atmosphere and everything in it is rotating at the same speed. But of course the higher you fly the faster you go.

They cannot prove it. That's why it's called a belief.

Nice to know you have no idea how southern circumpolar stars work on a flat Earth.

Also what do you mean "the higher you fly the higher you go?" And what does that have to do with a round Earth?

Prove it! Be aware that your argument has been debunked several times already. Just, do a search on this and the other forum.

The higher you are on a ball the longer the distance you have travel to keep up with the ball.

There is no point to discuss all these things over and over again. Just do your own long distance observations or choose the theory you like most.

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Dog

  • 1162
  • Literally a dog
Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #101 on: June 18, 2015, 02:07:33 PM »
Thank you Jet Fission for your answer. I agree with you, to a casual observer it does make little sense. Let me explain. Your answer is the exact answer I was looking for because most believe the Earth is spinning and the atmosphere is spinning along with the Earth. You see, I don't believe this. Because you believe a plane sitting on the runway is the same as a plane flying 1000 mph, the same speed as the Earth, going west to east and flying in the same atmosphere we breath everyday would be in essence the same as sitting on the run way. Now really think about this, I'm sure you've watched jet planes take off and land alot of times. I would venture to say many planes have flown 1000 mph, probably the exact same speed as the Earth spinning. I'm sure they have done this flying west to east and we know they fly in the Earth's atmosphere. You have to realize this. So tell me again why these planes will fall from the sky.

- Not flying, hovering. If your plane is stationary or hovering, only then is it going the same speed as the Earth.
- If a plane is flying relative to the Earth 1000 mph, then it's not going the same speed as the Earth anymore.

Let's take a step back and go to the outer reference frame. You are now floating in space and you see two planes on Earth.

For the plane sitting on the runway or hovering above the runway you see:   An airplane on the surface of the Earth (or hovering above it), and the surface is rotating at 1000 mph. So the plane, in the outer space frame, is going 1000 mph. On the ground it wouldn't be moving.

For the plane taking off and going 1000 mph soon after you see: An airplane moving above the surface of the Earth. If it's going W->E then the plane looks like it's going 2000 mph, because the surface is already going 1000 mph and the plane is going 1000 mph faster than that, so the velocities add.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 02:09:41 PM by Dog »

Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #102 on: June 18, 2015, 02:14:28 PM »
Come on Mr. Dog, I understand when you throw a ball up in a moving car you can catch it. This is not what i'm talking about. Simply tell me why I can't catch that same ball if I throw it up while on on the back of a jet plane, flying in the sky. The conditions are the same as the Earth only NOT relative to the Earth because of the planes height above the Earth, same speed and same direction, (west to east). Also, the plane is flying in the Earth's atmosphere on a very calm day, so it would feel the same atmosphere as a person feels on Earth, hardly any breeze at all. Please explain your answer in layman's terms.

Is the plane going the same speed as the Earth (464 m/s) in the same direction as the Earth is spinning?


Yes, Mr Dog. The plane is exactly simulating the Earth in all regards. In fact you could say it is geostationary. Only it is not in space. it is in the atmosphere. Because the person is riding on the back of the plane, they would be in the same system as they would be as if they were on the ground on a fine day. They should be able to stand up and walk around the plane's back without even falling down or be blown off by the wind. The samme as we do on Earth. Can you picture what I mean and do you think my assessment is correct?

Airplanes, with very few exceptions, can't hover, which is what you're describing. If you're on top of, say, a hovering V-22 Osprey, then, sure, you could stand up and walk around on top of it (presuming you can avoid the downwash and turbulence from the props, and the plane was steady enough). Why wouldn't you be able to do that?

Traditional fixed-wing aircraft generate the lift they need to stay aloft by flying through the air at high speed. If airspeed is zero, the plane falls out of the sky because there's no lift, so what you describe can't happen (absent a headwind strong enough to be above stall speed); even if the groundspeed is zero, your airspeed must be well above it.

You can stand and walk around in an open basket suspended below a hot-air balloon while aloft. Because those do hover if there's no wind, as you describe. You're riding along, suspended in the air, over a fixed spot on Earth. If there is wind, you move slowly over the Earth along with it.


Alpha2Omega,

You must have missed it when I said the plane was going the same speed as the Earth, around 1000 mph. In other words the plane was staying in sync with the Earth. Similar to a  DirecTV satellite, only in Earth's atmosphere.

No, I didn't miss that. It would be staying over a single spot on the surface. Isn't that "hovering"?

Quote
By matching Earth's speed and direction and because the atmosphere is going along with the Earth's spin, it should feel no different on the back of the plane as it does standing on Earth any normal calm day. Simply please tell me if you agree or not.

Since the surface of the Earth, the aircraft, and the air are all traveling in the same direction at the same speed, there's no relative motion between them, so no airflow above and below the airplane's wings, so the airplane's wings can develop no lift. How does it stay aloft?

I do not agree that the scenario you describe is possible with a conventional airplane, so the question is moot. I do agree that, at least in principle, this would be possible with a levitating platform like a hovercraft of some type, or aerostat (e.g. hot-air balloon); in those cases, then yes, you can stand and walk around. This is assuming no practical limitations like stability, or a helicopter's downwash.

Alpha2Omega,
Great, now we are getting somewhere. Your answer,

 "Since the surface of the Earth, the aircraft, and the air are all traveling in the same direction at the same speed, there's no relative motion between them, so no airflow above and below the airplane's wings, so the airplane's wings can develop no lift. How does it stay aloft?"

I certainly agree with you, there would be no relative motion. the plane would definitely not stay aloft. infact it wouldn't get off the ground.

However I'm still a little confused.

Yes, we know. We're trying to help. We need you to help, too, if we're going to make any progress.

Quote
I've see planes take off and land my whole life and I'm pretty sure some of them have gone the same speed as the earth, (1000 mph), the same direction as the Earth spinning and in the same Earth's atmosphere and I'm very sure their wings develope lift because I see them land.

Could any of this mean the Earth is not spinning at all and just sitting still?

No. It means you need to pick a frame of reference and stay with it. You're flitting between ECI (Earth-Centered Inertial, i.e. centered on the center of the Earth and not spinning) and topocentric (centered on a fixed point on the surface, and using its local level and north for reference; this frame is spinning and moving in a circle wrt ECI) frames. It looks like you're trying to confuse everyone, and succeeding only in confusing yourself and maybe a few of the other flat-earthers (presuming that you actually do believe what you're saying and aren't just being a jackass).

Pick one, but only one, frame of reference and stay with it. If you do, the conundrum you're trying to create vanishes.

Quote
It must be or the planes we see everyday wouldn't be worth much if they can't fly.

If you're considering the 1000 mi/hr circumferential speed of the Earth at the Equator, you're using ECI. Fine. A plane taking off starts at 1000 mi/hr (not moving wrt the ground or the air in our scenario) and increases its speed by 1000 mi/hr flying eastward; it now has a circumferential speed of 2000 mi/hr (it started at 1000 mi/hr and increased its speed by 1000 mi/hr, remember? 1000 mi/hr + 1000 mi/hr = 2000 mi/hr) while the air around it and the ground below remains at 1000 mi/hr; its airspeed and ground speed are 1000 mi/hr (2000 mi/hr - 1000 mi/hr).

If you prefer to work in topocentric coordinates (most people do), the plane starts at zero mi/hr relative to the ground, takes off and increases its speed by 1000 mi/hr flying eastward. The air around it and the ground are still at zero, so its airspeed and ground speed are 1000 mi/hr. You ignore the rotational speed of the Earth when working in topocentric coordinates.

It's not hard to understand unless you want it to be.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

*

Jet Fission

  • 519
  • NASA shill
Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #103 on: June 18, 2015, 02:19:40 PM »
Because you believe a plane sitting on the runway is the same as a plane flying 1000 mph,

No, I don't, if you mean relative to the ground. A plane sitting on the runway is moving 0mph relative to the ground, which is what we commonly use to measure speed. When you drive a car you don't measure the speed your travelling +-the rotational speed of Earth, because that doesn't matter. You measure your speed relative to the ground.

It wouldn't make much sense to factor in your speed relative to the universe when it comes to these things. You could factor in the speed of Earth orbiting the Sun, the Sun orbiting the Milky Way, and the speed of the Milky Way through the universe. You'd get a number in the tens of millions. A completely pointless number.

No. On Earth, we measure speed relative to the ground because it makes sense.

I would venture to say many planes have flown 1000 mph, probably the exact same speed as the Earth spinning. I'm sure they have done this flying west to east and we know they fly in the Earth's atmosphere. You have to realize this. So tell me again why these planes will fall from the sky.

Again. They are already moving 1000mph on the ground, because they are spinning with the Earth. When they take off, they take off with that already 1000mph of velocity that isn't factored in any ground speed indicator. If a plane is moving 1000mph west to east then the plane would be moving 1000mph relative to the ground, and 2000mph if you factor in the rotation of Earth. If a plane is moving 1000mph from east to west it is moving 1000mph relative to the ground, but 0mph if you factor in the rotation of Earth. It will still be moving 1000mph though, and still arrive at its destination.

But if you formulate the question like you did: "If there was a way to pull an airplane up off the ground a few hundred feet and have it maintained the exact speed as the Earth spinning, going the same direction" then you literally mean the plane is moving 0mph relative to the ground. In which case, the plane would fall from the sky.

Now, if you mean that it maintained 1000mph plus Earth's rotation, then of course it would still fly. It would be moving 1000mph relative to the ground of course, and 2000mph if you factor in the rotation of Earth. But either way, it's moving 1000mph through the air (not factoring in winds and such). If you throw a paper airplane out the window the behavior won't be any different if you were moving any other direction- you're still just moving 1000mph.


To a flat earth theorist, being a "skeptic" is to have confirmation bias.
Just because I'm a genius doesn't mean I know everything.

*

Jet Fission

  • 519
  • NASA shill
Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #104 on: June 18, 2015, 02:23:21 PM »
I don't know if other people have this confusion but I certainly do. Do you mean the plane is moving at 1000mph relative to the Earth or not? Because if it is not relative, then as has been mentioned, the plane cannot fly as it is not moving, relative to the Earth.


The RE-believers believe that the earth, the atmosphere and everything in it is rotating at the same speed. But of course the higher you fly the faster you go.

They cannot prove it. That's why it's called a belief.

Nice to know you have no idea how southern circumpolar stars work on a flat Earth.

Also what do you mean "the higher you fly the higher you go?" And what does that have to do with a round Earth?

Prove it! Be aware that your argument has been debunked several times already. Just, do a search on this and the other forum.

The higher you are on a ball the longer the distance you have travel to keep up with the ball.

There is no point to discuss all these things over and over again. Just do your own long distance observations or choose the theory you like most.

Prove what? I didn't even make an argument?

Why would you want to "keep up" with the rotation of the planet? Do you mean if you're on a mountain, you would be moving faster than if you were at sea level? Yeah, you would move a little faster, in the same way all of us acknowledge that the rotation speed at the equator is faster than that on the poles.... so what?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 02:29:48 PM by Jet Fission »
To a flat earth theorist, being a "skeptic" is to have confirmation bias.
Just because I'm a genius doesn't mean I know everything.

*

Yendor

  • 1676
Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #105 on: June 18, 2015, 02:44:31 PM »
Come on Mr. Dog, I understand when you throw a ball up in a moving car you can catch it. This is not what i'm talking about. Simply tell me why I can't catch that same ball if I throw it up while on on the back of a jet plane, flying in the sky. The conditions are the same as the Earth only NOT relative to the Earth because of the planes height above the Earth, same speed and same direction, (west to east). Also, the plane is flying in the Earth's atmosphere on a very calm day, so it would feel the same atmosphere as a person feels on Earth, hardly any breeze at all. Please explain your answer in layman's terms.

Is the plane going the same speed as the Earth (464 m/s) in the same direction as the Earth is spinning?


Yes, Mr Dog. The plane is exactly simulating the Earth in all regards. In fact you could say it is geostationary. Only it is not in space. it is in the atmosphere. Because the person is riding on the back of the plane, they would be in the same system as they would be as if they were on the ground on a fine day. They should be able to stand up and walk around the plane's back without even falling down or be blown off by the wind. The samme as we do on Earth. Can you picture what I mean and do you think my assessment is correct?

Airplanes, with very few exceptions, can't hover, which is what you're describing. If you're on top of, say, a hovering V-22 Osprey, then, sure, you could stand up and walk around on top of it (presuming you can avoid the downwash and turbulence from the props, and the plane was steady enough). Why wouldn't you be able to do that?

Traditional fixed-wing aircraft generate the lift they need to stay aloft by flying through the air at high speed. If airspeed is zero, the plane falls out of the sky because there's no lift, so what you describe can't happen (absent a headwind strong enough to be above stall speed); even if the groundspeed is zero, your airspeed must be well above it.

You can stand and walk around in an open basket suspended below a hot-air balloon while aloft. Because those do hover if there's no wind, as you describe. You're riding along, suspended in the air, over a fixed spot on Earth. If there is wind, you move slowly over the Earth along with it.


Alpha2Omega,

You must have missed it when I said the plane was going the same speed as the Earth, around 1000 mph. In other words the plane was staying in sync with the Earth. Similar to a  DirecTV satellite, only in Earth's atmosphere.

No, I didn't miss that. It would be staying over a single spot on the surface. Isn't that "hovering"?

Quote
By matching Earth's speed and direction and because the atmosphere is going along with the Earth's spin, it should feel no different on the back of the plane as it does standing on Earth any normal calm day. Simply please tell me if you agree or not.

Since the surface of the Earth, the aircraft, and the air are all traveling in the same direction at the same speed, there's no relative motion between them, so no airflow above and below the airplane's wings, so the airplane's wings can develop no lift. How does it stay aloft?

I do not agree that the scenario you describe is possible with a conventional airplane, so the question is moot. I do agree that, at least in principle, this would be possible with a levitating platform like a hovercraft of some type, or aerostat (e.g. hot-air balloon); in those cases, then yes, you can stand and walk around. This is assuming no practical limitations like stability, or a helicopter's downwash.

Alpha2Omega,
Great, now we are getting somewhere. Your answer,

 "Since the surface of the Earth, the aircraft, and the air are all traveling in the same direction at the same speed, there's no relative motion between them, so no airflow above and below the airplane's wings, so the airplane's wings can develop no lift. How does it stay aloft?"

I certainly agree with you, there would be no relative motion. the plane would definitely not stay aloft. infact it wouldn't get off the ground.

However I'm still a little confused.

Yes, we know. We're trying to help. We need you to help, too, if we're going to make any progress.

Quote
I've see planes take off and land my whole life and I'm pretty sure some of them have gone the same speed as the earth, (1000 mph), the same direction as the Earth spinning and in the same Earth's atmosphere and I'm very sure their wings develope lift because I see them land.

Could any of this mean the Earth is not spinning at all and just sitting still?

No. It means you need to pick a frame of reference and stay with it. You're flitting between ECI (Earth-Centered Inertial, i.e. centered on the center of the Earth and not spinning) and topocentric (centered on a fixed point on the surface, and using its local level and north for reference; this frame is spinning and moving in a circle wrt ECI) frames. It looks like you're trying to confuse everyone, and succeeding only in confusing yourself and maybe a few of the other flat-earthers (presuming that you actually do believe what you're saying and aren't just being a jackass).

Pick one, but only one, frame of reference and stay with it. If you do, the conundrum you're trying to create vanishes.

Quote
It must be or the planes we see everyday wouldn't be worth much if they can't fly.

If you're considering the 1000 mi/hr circumferential speed of the Earth at the Equator, you're using ECI. Fine. A plane taking off starts at 1000 mi/hr (not moving wrt the ground or the air in our scenario) and increases its speed by 1000 mi/hr flying eastward; it now has a circumferential speed of 2000 mi/hr (it started at 1000 mi/hr and increased its speed by 1000 mi/hr, remember? 1000 mi/hr + 1000 mi/hr = 2000 mi/hr) while the air around it and the ground below remains at 1000 mi/hr; its airspeed and ground speed are 1000 mi/hr (2000 mi/hr - 1000 mi/hr).

If you prefer to work in topocentric coordinates (most people do), the plane starts at zero mi/hr relative to the ground, takes off and increases its speed by 1000 mi/hr flying eastward. The air around it and the ground are still at zero, so its airspeed and ground speed are 1000 mi/hr. You ignore the rotational speed of the Earth when working in topocentric coordinates.

It's not hard to understand unless you want it to be.


Mr, Dog and Mr. Alpha20mega,

I see your points and I agree. However, I'm not talking about relative to the Earth. I'm talking about syncronized to the Earth. Like a Geosyncronized satellite only in flying in Earths atmosphere. My plane has a sight cross hair and is set on the statue of Liberty. This cross hair is tied into the planes controls and the plane is going the same speed and direction(W to E) as the Earth below. The planes should be going around 1000 mph, feeling only mild air flow similar to what would be on Earth, only up in the sky. Or it would come crashing down. What do you think?
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
                              George Orwell

?

Tom

Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #106 on: June 18, 2015, 03:02:59 PM »
I don't know if other people have this confusion but I certainly do. Do you mean the plane is moving at 1000mph relative to the Earth or not? Because if it is not relative, then as has been mentioned, the plane cannot fly as it is not moving, relative to the Earth.


The RE-believers believe that the earth, the atmosphere and everything in it is rotating at the same speed. But of course the higher you fly the faster you go.

They cannot prove it. That's why it's called a belief.

Nice to know you have no idea how southern circumpolar stars work on a flat Earth.

Also what do you mean "the higher you fly the higher you go?" And what does that have to do with a round Earth?

Prove it! Be aware that your argument has been debunked several times already. Just, do a search on this and the other forum.

The higher you are on a ball the longer the distance you have travel to keep up with the ball.

There is no point to discuss all these things over and over again. Just do your own long distance observations or choose the theory you like most.

Prove what? I didn't even make an argument?

Why would you want to "keep up" with the rotation of the planet? Do you mean if you're on a mountain, you would be moving faster than if you were at sea level? Yeah, you would move a little faster, in the same way all of us acknowledge that the rotation speed at the equator is faster than that on the poles.... so what?

You asked a question and I reply.
Why are you acting so aggressively?

I stop this conversation. Believe what you want. Good luck!

*

Dog

  • 1162
  • Literally a dog
Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #107 on: June 18, 2015, 03:03:20 PM »
Mr, Dog and Mr. Alpha20mega,

I see your points and I agree. However, I'm not talking about relative to the Earth. I'm talking about syncronized to the Earth. Like a Geosyncronized satellite only in flying in Earths atmosphere. My plane has a sight cross hair and is set on the statue of Liberty. This cross hair is tied into the planes controls and the plane is going the same speed and direction(W to E) as the Earth below. The planes should be going around 1000 mph, feeling only mild air flow similar to what would be on Earth, only up in the sky. Or it would come crashing down. What do you think?

If you're not talking about relative to the Earth (as if you were observing from space) like you say, and it's "syncronized to the Earth" moving at 1000mph in W->E direction, then to someone on the ground the plane is floating. It's syncronized with the ground, which means it's floating over one spot, and that spot is moving at 1000 mph.

Again, I feel like this was a really good way to put it, read it again carefully:
Let's take a step back and go to the outer reference frame. You are now floating in space and you see two planes on Earth.

For the plane sitting on the runway or hovering above the runway you see:   An airplane on the surface of the Earth (or hovering above it), and the surface is rotating at 1000 mph. So the plane, in the outer space frame, is going 1000 mph. On the ground it wouldn't be moving.

For the plane taking off and going 1000 mph soon after you see: An airplane moving above the surface of the Earth. If it's going W->E then the plane looks like it's going 2000 mph, because the surface is already going 1000 mph and the plane is going 1000 mph faster than that, so the velocities add.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 03:05:18 PM by Dog »

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Jet Fission

  • 519
  • NASA shill
Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #108 on: June 18, 2015, 03:05:50 PM »
I don't know if other people have this confusion but I certainly do. Do you mean the plane is moving at 1000mph relative to the Earth or not? Because if it is not relative, then as has been mentioned, the plane cannot fly as it is not moving, relative to the Earth.


The RE-believers believe that the earth, the atmosphere and everything in it is rotating at the same speed. But of course the higher you fly the faster you go.

They cannot prove it. That's why it's called a belief.

Nice to know you have no idea how southern circumpolar stars work on a flat Earth.

Also what do you mean "the higher you fly the higher you go?" And what does that have to do with a round Earth?

Prove it! Be aware that your argument has been debunked several times already. Just, do a search on this and the other forum.

The higher you are on a ball the longer the distance you have travel to keep up with the ball.

There is no point to discuss all these things over and over again. Just do your own long distance observations or choose the theory you like most.

Prove what? I didn't even make an argument?

Why would you want to "keep up" with the rotation of the planet? Do you mean if you're on a mountain, you would be moving faster than if you were at sea level? Yeah, you would move a little faster, in the same way all of us acknowledge that the rotation speed at the equator is faster than that on the poles.... so what?

You asked a question and I reply.
Why are you acting so aggressively?

I stop this conversation. Believe what you want. Good luck!

Then don't use that "argument" if you can't even prove it.
To a flat earth theorist, being a "skeptic" is to have confirmation bias.
Just because I'm a genius doesn't mean I know everything.

*

Yendor

  • 1676
Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #109 on: June 18, 2015, 03:18:46 PM »
Mr, Dog and Mr. Alpha20mega,

I see your points and I agree. However, I'm not talking about relative to the Earth. I'm talking about syncronized to the Earth. Like a Geosyncronized satellite only in flying in Earths atmosphere. My plane has a sight cross hair and is set on the statue of Liberty. This cross hair is tied into the planes controls and the plane is going the same speed and direction(W to E) as the Earth below. The planes should be going around 1000 mph, feeling only mild air flow similar to what would be on Earth, only up in the sky. Or it would come crashing down. What do you think?

If you're not talking about relative to the Earth (as if you were observing from space) like you say, and it's "syncronized to the Earth" moving at 1000mph in W->E direction, then to someone on the ground the plane is floating. It's syncronized with the ground, which means it's floating over one spot, and that spot is moving at 1000 mph.

Again, I feel like this was a really good way to put it, read it again carefully:
Let's take a step back and go to the outer reference frame. You are now floating in space and you see two planes on Earth.

For the plane sitting on the runway or hovering above the runway you see:   An airplane on the surface of the Earth (or hovering above it), and the surface is rotating at 1000 mph. So the plane, in the outer space frame, is going 1000 mph. On the ground it wouldn't be moving.

For the plane taking off and going 1000 mph soon after you see: An airplane moving above the surface of the Earth. If it's going W->E then the plane looks like it's going 2000 mph, because the surface is already going 1000 mph and the plane is going 1000 mph faster than that, so the velocities add.



Sir,

What you say, "If you're not talking about relative to the Earth (as if you were observing from space) like you say, and it's "syncronized to the Earth" moving at 1000mph in W->E direction, then to someone on the ground the plane is floating. It's syncronized with the ground, which means it's floating over one spot, and that spot is moving at 1000 mph." is correct. This is the way I look at it. It sound like you think the plane would crash by saying it is floating, correct.
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
                              George Orwell

*

Dog

  • 1162
  • Literally a dog
Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #110 on: June 18, 2015, 03:22:18 PM »
Mr, Dog and Mr. Alpha20mega,

I see your points and I agree. However, I'm not talking about relative to the Earth. I'm talking about syncronized to the Earth. Like a Geosyncronized satellite only in flying in Earths atmosphere. My plane has a sight cross hair and is set on the statue of Liberty. This cross hair is tied into the planes controls and the plane is going the same speed and direction(W to E) as the Earth below. The planes should be going around 1000 mph, feeling only mild air flow similar to what would be on Earth, only up in the sky. Or it would come crashing down. What do you think?

If you're not talking about relative to the Earth (as if you were observing from space) like you say, and it's "syncronized to the Earth" moving at 1000mph in W->E direction, then to someone on the ground the plane is floating. It's syncronized with the ground, which means it's floating over one spot, and that spot is moving at 1000 mph.

Again, I feel like this was a really good way to put it, read it again carefully:
Let's take a step back and go to the outer reference frame. You are now floating in space and you see two planes on Earth.

For the plane sitting on the runway or hovering above the runway you see:   An airplane on the surface of the Earth (or hovering above it), and the surface is rotating at 1000 mph. So the plane, in the outer space frame, is going 1000 mph. On the ground it wouldn't be moving.

For the plane taking off and going 1000 mph soon after you see: An airplane moving above the surface of the Earth. If it's going W->E then the plane looks like it's going 2000 mph, because the surface is already going 1000 mph and the plane is going 1000 mph faster than that, so the velocities add.



Sir,

What you say, "If you're not talking about relative to the Earth (as if you were observing from space) like you say, and it's "syncronized to the Earth" moving at 1000mph in W->E direction, then to someone on the ground the plane is floating. It's syncronized with the ground, which means it's floating over one spot, and that spot is moving at 1000 mph." is correct. This is the way I look at it. It sound like you think the plane would crash by saying it is floating, correct.

Yes, this is correct. A floating plane (moving 1000 mph if viewed from outer space), will crash. Unless it is a V-22 Osprey or Harrier.

Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #111 on: June 18, 2015, 04:08:25 PM »
Mr, Dog and Mr. Alpha20mega,

I see your points and I agree. However, I'm not talking about relative to the Earth. I'm talking about syncronized to the Earth. Like a Geosyncronized satellite only in flying in Earths atmosphere. My plane has a sight cross hair and is set on the statue of Liberty. This cross hair is tied into the planes controls and the plane is going the same speed and direction(W to E) as the Earth below. The planes should be going around 1000 mph, feeling only mild air flow similar to what would be on Earth, only up in the sky. Or it would come crashing down. What do you think?

That 1000 mi/hr (approximately) tangential speed you cite is at the equator. At New York's latitude, this would be about 760 mi/hr, but whatever.

Airplanes can't hover[nb]Ignoring very unusual special cases like the Osprey.[/nb], which is what you describe. It will crash. How many times does this need to be repeated?

Quote
It's not hard to understand unless you want it to be.

You must want to not understand. What point are you trying to make here? The only thing that's becoming apparent is you're being (intentionally, I hope) extremely dense.
 
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

*

Yendor

  • 1676
Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #112 on: June 18, 2015, 04:22:09 PM »
Mr, Dog and Mr. Alpha20mega,

I see your points and I agree. However, I'm not talking about relative to the Earth. I'm talking about syncronized to the Earth. Like a Geosyncronized satellite only in flying in Earths atmosphere. My plane has a sight cross hair and is set on the statue of Liberty. This cross hair is tied into the planes controls and the plane is going the same speed and direction(W to E) as the Earth below. The planes should be going around 1000 mph, feeling only mild air flow similar to what would be on Earth, only up in the sky. Or it would come crashing down. What do you think?

If you're not talking about relative to the Earth (as if you were observing from space) like you say, and it's "syncronized to the Earth" moving at 1000mph in W->E direction, then to someone on the ground the plane is floating. It's syncronized with the ground, which means it's floating over one spot, and that spot is moving at 1000 mph.

Again, I feel like this was a really good way to put it, read it again carefully:
Let's take a step back and go to the outer reference frame. You are now floating in space and you see two planes on Earth.

For the plane sitting on the runway or hovering above the runway you see:   An airplane on the surface of the Earth (or hovering above it), and the surface is rotating at 1000 mph. So the plane, in the outer space frame, is going 1000 mph. On the ground it wouldn't be moving.

For the plane taking off and going 1000 mph soon after you see: An airplane moving above the surface of the Earth. If it's going W->E then the plane looks like it's going 2000 mph, because the surface is already going 1000 mph and the plane is going 1000 mph faster than that, so the velocities add.



Sir,

What you say, "If you're not talking about relative to the Earth (as if you were observing from space) like you say, and it's "syncronized to the Earth" moving at 1000mph in W->E direction, then to someone on the ground the plane is floating. It's syncronized with the ground, which means it's floating over one spot, and that spot is moving at 1000 mph." is correct. This is the way I look at it. It sound like you think the plane would crash by saying it is floating, correct.

Yes, this is correct. A floating plane (moving 1000 mph if viewed from outer space), will crash. Unless it is a V-22 Osprey or Harrier.

Ok, we've established something. Simply tell me this, have you ever been in a plane going 1000 mph, have you seen jet planes take off and land, do you believe a military jet can take off go to 1000 mph and travel W->E and safely land back on the runway? If you answer Yes to most of these questions, then tell me why our discussed plane would crash if was simply observed from outer space.
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
                              George Orwell

*

Yendor

  • 1676
Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #113 on: June 18, 2015, 04:41:51 PM »
Mr, Dog and Mr. ,Alpha20mega

I see your points and I agree. However, I'm not talking about relative to the Earth. I'm talking about syncronized to the Earth. Like a Geosyncronized satellite only in flying in Earths atmosphere. My plane has a sight cross hair and is set on the statue of Liberty. This cross hair is tied into the planes controls and the plane is going the same speed and direction(W to E) as the Earth below. The planes should be going around 1000 mph, feeling only mild air flow similar to what would be on Earth, only up in the sky. Or it would come crashing down. What do you think?


That 1000 mi/hr (approximately) tangential speed you cite is at the equator. At New York's latitude, this would be about 760 mi/hr, but whatever.

Airplanes can't hover[nb]Ignoring very unusual special cases like the Osprey.[/nb], which is what you describe. It will crash. How many times does this need to be repeated?

Quote
It's not hard to understand unless you want it to be.

You must want to not understand. What point are you trying to make here? The only thing that's becoming apparent is you're being (intentionally, I hope) extremely dense.
 

Alpha20mega,

Sir, I assure you I'm not being dense. I admit i'm not real educated in physics, but I do know some other things. My point to this dicsussion is me trying to wrap my head around the belief, of some, the Earth is spinning. This is something I can't fathem and i'm only offering a scenario the best way I can. I'm hoping someone can explain, my given scenario, in terms I can understand why people like you guys can believe the Earth actually does spin. I'm not looking for quotes from books or what you were taught in school, just good old common sense answers. Because I like common sense.
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
                              George Orwell

*

The Ellimist

  • 538
  • "Let us play a game, Crayak."
Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #114 on: June 18, 2015, 05:00:11 PM »
Mr, Dog and Mr. Alpha20mega,

I see your points and I agree. However, I'm not talking about relative to the Earth. I'm talking about syncronized to the Earth. Like a Geosyncronized satellite only in flying in Earths atmosphere. My plane has a sight cross hair and is set on the statue of Liberty. This cross hair is tied into the planes controls and the plane is going the same speed and direction(W to E) as the Earth below. The planes should be going around 1000 mph, feeling only mild air flow similar to what would be on Earth, only up in the sky. Or it would come crashing down. What do you think?

If you're not talking about relative to the Earth (as if you were observing from space) like you say, and it's "syncronized to the Earth" moving at 1000mph in W->E direction, then to someone on the ground the plane is floating. It's syncronized with the ground, which means it's floating over one spot, and that spot is moving at 1000 mph.

Again, I feel like this was a really good way to put it, read it again carefully:
Let's take a step back and go to the outer reference frame. You are now floating in space and you see two planes on Earth.

For the plane sitting on the runway or hovering above the runway you see:   An airplane on the surface of the Earth (or hovering above it), and the surface is rotating at 1000 mph. So the plane, in the outer space frame, is going 1000 mph. On the ground it wouldn't be moving.

For the plane taking off and going 1000 mph soon after you see: An airplane moving above the surface of the Earth. If it's going W->E then the plane looks like it's going 2000 mph, because the surface is already going 1000 mph and the plane is going 1000 mph faster than that, so the velocities add.



Sir,

What you say, "If you're not talking about relative to the Earth (as if you were observing from space) like you say, and it's "syncronized to the Earth" moving at 1000mph in W->E direction, then to someone on the ground the plane is floating. It's syncronized with the ground, which means it's floating over one spot, and that spot is moving at 1000 mph." is correct. This is the way I look at it. It sound like you think the plane would crash by saying it is floating, correct.

Yes, this is correct. A floating plane (moving 1000 mph if viewed from outer space), will crash. Unless it is a V-22 Osprey or Harrier.

Ok, we've established something. Simply tell me this, have you ever been in a plane going 1000 mph, have you seen jet planes take off and land, do you believe a military jet can take off go to 1000 mph and travel W->E and safely land back on the runway? If you answer Yes to most of these questions, then tell me why our discussed plane would crash if was simply observed from outer space.
It really isn't that hard to get. A plane that takes off and goes 1000mph is actually going 1000mph faster than the Earth. If your plane is just sitting there, it is going 1000mph along with everything else. If it is going 1000mph in the air, it is not moving in the air. If a plane is not moving in the air......
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 05:10:46 PM by The Ellimist »
Additionally, we cannot entirely rule out the nefarious effects of demons, spirits, gnomes, and wizards on our society's ability to comprehend our flat earth as it really is. 

Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #115 on: June 18, 2015, 05:32:02 PM »
Mr, Dog and Mr. ,Alpha20mega

I see your points and I agree. However, I'm not talking about relative to the Earth. I'm talking about syncronized to the Earth. Like a Geosyncronized satellite only in flying in Earths atmosphere. My plane has a sight cross hair and is set on the statue of Liberty. This cross hair is tied into the planes controls and the plane is going the same speed and direction(W to E) as the Earth below. The planes should be going around 1000 mph, feeling only mild air flow similar to what would be on Earth, only up in the sky. Or it would come crashing down. What do you think?


That 1000 mi/hr (approximately) tangential speed you cite is at the equator. At New York's latitude, this would be about 760 mi/hr, but whatever.

Airplanes can't hover[nb]Ignoring very unusual special cases like the Osprey.[/nb], which is what you describe. It will crash. How many times does this need to be repeated?

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It's not hard to understand unless you want it to be.

You must want to not understand. What point are you trying to make here? The only thing that's becoming apparent is you're being (intentionally, I hope) extremely dense.
 

Alpha20mega,

Sir, I assure you I'm not being dense.

I assure you you are. The question is whether it's an act or not.

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I admit i'm not real educated in physics, but I do know some other things. My point to this dicsussion is me trying to wrap my head around the belief, of some, the Earth is spinning. This is something I can't fathem and i'm only offering a scenario the best way I can. I'm hoping someone can explain, my given scenario, in terms I can understand why people like you guys can believe the Earth actually does spin. I'm not looking for quotes from books or what you were taught in school, just good old common sense answers. Because I like common sense.

What is it that you don't understand that's already been explained?
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Mikey T.

  • 3545
Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #116 on: June 18, 2015, 07:09:25 PM »
I know someone has said this already, but you do realize that aircraft measure air speed, that is to say speed through the air.  The relative motion thing is what is confusing you right now. 
Also someone mentioned the higher you go the faster you are traveling.  This is somewhat true if you are holding a stationary spot above a rotating sphere.  The further you are from the center the faster you are going to maintain that same line to the center.  The problem is that is completely unrelated to what the discussion is about and it still is a failure of seeing the relative speed.  The atmosphere is moving with the spin of the Earth, for the most part.  It is still all relative to ground level though.  so if you are on the surface at the equator you are moving relative to the axis of rotation, at 1000 mph.  This is ignoring the revolution of the Earth around the Sun and the Revolution of the Sun around the galactic center. 

But that is also not something we should be getting off onto right now.  Back to what I explained about the train scenario, and yes jroa I use it because it is somewhat valid and i know you have no refutation for it therefore you want to dismiss it.  Anyway, the Earth is moving at a constant speed in relation to the rotation.  You, the plane, the air are all moving with that rotation.  It isn't starting, stopping, drastically accelerating or decelerating.  What you "feel" as motion while in a jet, a plane, a car,a train, etc. is the change in velocity.  Be it vector (direction) or speed.  If you are moving at a constant rate, in the same direction, you will not feel the motion because you are moving with it.
The hovering plane scenario is well, whatever we will go with it.  It is hovering above the statue of liberty.  From a frame of reference from the surface of the Earth it is sitting still.  From a frame of reference that is not moving with the Earth it is moving with the Earth.  If it were hovering above the surface, you could walk around on it easily because it is not moving through the air.  It is moving with the air.  Airplanes, once again, measure speed through the air or over the ground.  That is your frame of reference, if it is moving at 1000 mph airspeed, it is moving throught the air at 1000 mph.  The air is moving with the Earth therefore if it is moving in the same direction as the rotation of the Earth, then from a frame of reference outside the rotation of the Earth it is moving 2000 mph with the Earth turning under it at 1000 mph.  Relative to the Earth it is moving 1000mph.  Lets use 500 mph instead for a second time through.  plane, flying at 500 mph with the rotation of the Earth, from an observation point outside of the rotation of the Earth is traveling at 1500 mph, from the ground it is 500 mph, the Earth from outside is moving at 1000 mph the plane adds 500 mph equals 1500 mph.  From the ground 500 mph because the observation point is moving at 1000 mph with it.

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Rayzor

  • 12111
  • Looking for Occam
Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #117 on: June 18, 2015, 07:37:42 PM »
All things considered,  Yendor has managed to derail a thread that would have been a good debate.   What's more he trolled mercilessly with responses so stupid that it hurts to think at that level.   
I say it's time for Yendor to piss off and go back to feeding the pigs.   Everyone is now wise to the act.

I'm still waiting for a response to "The higher you climb the further you can see."



Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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Dog

  • 1162
  • Literally a dog
Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #118 on: June 18, 2015, 11:39:10 PM »
My point to this dicsussion is me trying to wrap my head around the belief, of some, the Earth is spinning.

That's the thing, you don't have to. Because of relative motion, you can completely forget about the fact that you, the atmospere, and Earth are all spinning at ludicrous speed. When you're in a car going down the highway with cruise control(constant velocity), do you try to "wrap your head around" how the highway speed effects the donut on your center console? No. Because it's irrelevant and not in your reference frame.

Ok, we've established something. Simply tell me this, have you ever been in a plane going 1000 mph, have you seen jet planes take off and land, do you believe a military jet can take off go to 1000 mph and travel W->E and safely land back on the runway? If you answer Yes to most of these questions, then tell me why our discussed plane would crash if was simply observed from outer space.

Because that's not the same plane. The plane we observed from outer space was hovering. Remember? It was only 9 posts ago.

If a plane "takes off and goes to 1000 mph in a W->E direction" it's not floating anymore. It's also not synchronized with the Earth anymore. It's going faster than the surface, so it's going faster than 1000mph, 2000mph to be exact.

You're confusing 2 planes. Read this again slowly. If you get confused and want to make another post, READ IT AGAIN.

Let's take a step back and go to the outer reference frame. You are now floating in space and you see two planes on Earth.

For a plane sitting on the runway (or hovering above the runway) you see:   An airplane on the surface of the Earth (or hovering above it), and the surface is rotating at 1000 mph. So the plane, in the outer space frame, is going 1000 mph because it's stuck to the surface which is moving that fast. On the ground it wouldn't be moving.

For a plane taking off and going 1000 mph soon after you see:   An airplane moving above the surface of the Earth. If it's going W->E then the plane looks like it's going 2000 mph, because the surface is already going 1000 mph and the plane is going 1000 mph faster than that. This plane is not hovering.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 11:46:45 PM by Dog »

Re: There is absolutely no proof of a globe earth. Period.
« Reply #119 on: June 19, 2015, 02:54:45 AM »
Foucault Pendulum is evidence the earth is rotating. They are latitude dependent, which is only possible on a round earth.

The sun does not appear to get smaller as it gets further away. Only possible if it's a great distance away.
No its evidence there is torque occuring at the pivot point , the same as any other movement & pivot point .
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