For unto us a child is born

It's so ridiculous the lengths that non-believers go to deny the Truth. Just think about what you are proposing... That some highly skilled, imaginative writers constructed a tale of a man that literally shook the Roman empire to its core, fulfilling 1000 years of Jewish prophecy and deceiving billions people over 2000 years later.

That in itself, would make the New Testament one of the greatest literary works of all time even if it were made-up.

Quote from: Itchy_Arris on June 11, 2015, 11:02:00 AM

Whatever went on in Sodom and Gomorrah cannot possibly be worse than the evil that took place in the 20th century. There were not 6 million people murdered, there were nowhere near that number in the whole region. And that's just the Nazi atrocities, then there's Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao.

Why did god act against Sodom and Gomorrah, but not against more recent evils?

That is a very interesting question. I have never thought that one out. I suspect he had a reason, but what it was, I don't begin to know. Why does G-d not respond to horrific shit nowadays, like he seemed to have done in the past? Perhaps he believes that we should be mature enough to do it on our own now? I don't know. I shall inquire of the Rabbi, and of my commentaries, though. That is an interesting idea.

My Goodness you people do a lot of assuming which makes you look like.... asses.

You people say "There's horrible stuff happening today" so "why doesn't God destroy things now?"

Obviously things WERE REALLY BAD in Sodom and Gomorrah, but you conclude that "I guess it never happened".

But you and I BOTH KNOW that you have no idea how bad things were at Sodom and Gomorrah, but your LACK OF FAITH closes your heart and mind to seeing the Truth. If the Bible says it was Bad, then IT WAS BAD.

And the reason God hasn't destroyed the earth yet, is because it is NOT TIME.

The Day of the Lord

Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.

Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

2 Peter 3

It's so ridiculous the lengths that non-believers go to deny the Truth. Just think about what you are proposing... That some highly skilled, imaginative writers constructed a tale of a man that literally shook the Roman empire to its core, fulfilling 1000 years of Jewish prophecy and deceiving billions people over 2000 years later.

That in itself, would make the New Testament one of the greatest literary works of all time even if it were made-up.

Jesus didn't shake the Roman Empire to its core. They executed him following some minor local unrest. No one in Rome would have even heard of him, or given a shit about him during his lifetime. It was decades after Jesus that Christianity had any effect on the Romans. Long enough for the stories to have been...well, exaggerated slightly.

It is you who is being stupid for devoting your life to an obscure preacher in the ancient middle east.

It's so ridiculous the lengths that non-believers go to deny the Truth. Just think about what you are proposing... That some highly skilled, imaginative writers constructed a tale of a man that literally shook the Roman empire to its core, fulfilling 1000 years of Jewish prophecy and deceiving billions people over 2000 years later.

That in itself, would make the New Testament one of the greatest literary works of all time even if it were made-up.

THE greatest.   Which it is either way.

It's so ridiculous the lengths that non-believers go to deny the Truth. Just think about what you are proposing... That some highly skilled, imaginative writers constructed a tale of a man that literally shook the Roman empire to its core, fulfilling 1000 years of Jewish prophecy and deceiving billions people over 2000 years later.

That in itself, would make the New Testament one of the greatest literary works of all time even if it were made-up.

It is considered one of the greatest literary works of all time, but it's not like the tale is that original. If you study comparative mythology you find similar characters all over the world. Siddhartha was known hundreds of years before Jesusbwas born. It is not difficult to construct a story that will fulfill, loosely at that, the Jewish prophecies and billions of people believing it 1000s of years later says nothing about the story being true. You might want to research Cargo Cults to understand the basic human need for religiosity.

It's so ridiculous the lengths that non-believers go to deny the Truth. Just think about what you are proposing... That some highly skilled, imaginative writers constructed a tale of a man that literally created one of the worlds largest empires, fulfilling 1000 years of Jewish prophecy and deceiving billions people over 2000 years later.

That in itself, would make the Qu'ran one of the greatest literary works of all time even if it were made-up.

Fix'd

Quote from: Yaakov ben Avraham on June 11, 2015, 09:40:14 PM

Occam's Razor. If he broke Jewish Law, Let hem kill him. If he broke Roman Law,  the Romans will. Evidently, the latter must have been the case, and the NT is just bullshit.

Occam's Razor.... Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophecies written 1000 years before his death.... OR Jesus was a liar, and the New Testament writers were liars that just so happened to correspond with over 300 prophecies written before Jesus' death.

Which makes more sense?

Quote

Jesus Christ himself said, “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me”

John 5:46

Except he didn't. Occam's Razor. Problem resolved.

It is considered one of the greatest literary works of all time, but it's not like the tale is that original. If you study comparative....

If you study any historical event, you know that the first versions of a story are the least accurate.

Given that some part of the biblical narrative is word-of-mouth, you would expect the earliest written versions of stories
to be inaccurate and distorted.

Quote from: Yaakov ben Avraham on June 11, 2015, 07:06:14 PM

It's just funny to me that you find it perfectly plausible for God to appear exactly once in history to the masses,

God did not "appear."
My only point.



20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

Well, the command that no one shall see the face of G-d and live came LATER than what you are talking about in Genesis.

Quote from: SkyPostings on June 12, 2015, 02:00:10 AM

Quote from: Yaakov ben Avraham on June 11, 2015, 07:06:14 PM

It's just funny to me that you find it perfectly plausible for God to appear exactly once in history to the masses,

God did not "appear."
My only point.



20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

Well, the command that no one shall see the face of G-d and live came LATER than what you are talking about in Genesis.

So God's word is not eternal?

For once I actually agree with atheists and agnostics. It is relatively easy to make up a story about a dude that does not exist and make him fulfill prophecies. EVEN assuming that he did exist, which is questionable, he didn't shake the Empire to its core. Christianity had very little effect on the Empire for a couple of centuries, and by the time it did, it was a far cry from what Jesus had taught, having embraced so much doctrine from the Eastern Mystery Cults.

KMAN, that gets into a very interesting topic. Occasionally, G-d has altered laws to apply to Jews that did not previously apply to people generally. For example: People generally were allowed to eat only herbs when he created people. Then they were allowed to herbs and meat when he gave laws to Noah. Then the Torah was given the Hebrews that gave us our unique set of dietary laws that affect only us.

Its hard to explain to you in this medium. But, another example is the following:

According the Jewish tradition, Abraham gave us Morning Prayer. Isaac gave us Noon Prayer. Jacob gave us Evening Prayer. During the respective life of each Patriarch, we prayed once a day, twice a day, and eventually thrice a day, and before that, we prayed only privately and individually rather than corporately.

I don't know if that helps get my point across. But in this medium it is hard to discuss logically.

Quote from: SkyPostings on June 12, 2015, 02:00:10 AM

Quote from: Yaakov ben Avraham on June 11, 2015, 07:06:14 PM

It's just funny to me that you find it perfectly plausible for God to appear exactly once in history to the masses,

God did not "appear."
My only point.
20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

Well, the command that no one shall see the face of G-d and live came LATER than what you are talking about in Genesis.

True enough.   I think "The Garden" was an Archetype of Heaven and Adam may have seen Gods face while they were walking together.
But he was immortal at the time and not yet subject to his future destiny with death.
Still.....that would not break the "rule."   Adam did die.

... having embraced so much doctrine from the Eastern Mystery Cults....

It's a mind-trap to assume anything that was "first" was copied.   
Jesus spent most of his ministry correcting error growing out of the OT.

If that facts are correct about the OT, it's truth could grow many cults
starting from Creation.  Correcting the error, is not copying the cults.

Quote from: Yaakov ben Avraham on June 12, 2015, 10:16:26 AM

... having embraced so much doctrine from the Eastern Mystery Cults....

It's a mind-trap to assume anything that was "first" was copied.   
Jesus spent most of his ministry correcting error growing out of the OT.

If that facts are correct about the OT, it's truth could grow many cults
starting from Creation.  Correcting the error, is not copying the cults.

Assuming there was any. Of course, he may have been just correcting errors in practice, rather than errors in the text itself. That is what Jews who even believe he existed would acknowledge he was doing. I myself am not so sure he even existed historically.

EVERY single religion on earth has abusive practices. Judaism is not different, then or now. Christianity today has abuses. So, if he existed at all, he may have been correcting abuses, rather than errors in doctrine. Well, good on him. He wasn't the only one. There were plenty of men like him. He just got the most copy. So?

KMAN, that gets into a very interesting topic. Occasionally, G-d has altered laws to apply to Jews that did not previously apply to people generally. For example: People generally were allowed to eat only herbs when he created people. Then they were allowed to herbs and meat when he gave laws to Noah. Then the Torah was given the Hebrews that gave us our unique set of dietary laws that affect only us.

Its hard to explain to you in this medium. But, another example is the following:

According the Jewish tradition, Abraham gave us Morning Prayer. Isaac gave us Noon Prayer. Jacob gave us Evening Prayer. During the respective life of each Patriarch, we prayed once a day, twice a day, and eventually thrice a day, and before that, we prayed only privately and individually rather than corporately.

I don't know if that helps get my point across. But in this medium it is hard to discuss logically.

Yeah, but like, why? God's laws seem kinda inconsistent and arbitrary.

You're asking me why? Sweet G-d, if I knew why, I would be G-d, which, in spite of my occasionally arrogant nature, I most certainly am not! I can't answer that one.

For a child is born unto us,
"A son is given unto us;
And the government is upon his shoulder;
And his name is called
aPele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;
6That the government may be increased, And of peace there be no end,
Upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom,
To establish it, and to uphold it
Through justice and through righteousness From henceforth even for ever.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this."

Isaiah 9:5-6 JPS 1917

The passage refers to a yet unborn prince who will bring about world peace, which Jesus failed to do, thus disqualifying himself from being the Jewish Messiah.

Moshiach/ Maschiach?

There are several different ways of interpreting Isaiah 9:5-6, but none of them have to do with Yeshu.

There are several different ways of interpreting Isaiah 9:5-6, but none of them have to do with Yeshu.

I believe he is yet to come.

Quote from: Yaakov ben Avraham on June 09, 2015, 09:14:16 AM

For a child is born unto us,
"A son is given unto us;
And the government is upon his shoulder;
And his name is called
aPele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;
6That the government may be increased, And of peace there be no end,
Upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom,
To establish it, and to uphold it
Through justice and through righteousness From henceforth even for ever.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this."

Isaiah 9:5-6 JPS 1917

The passage refers to a yet unborn prince who will bring about world peace, which Jesus failed to do, thus disqualifying himself from being the Jewish Messiah.

Moshiach/ Maschiach?

Can't you see that the bible is all about local disputes and grievances in the East Med? It's nothing to do with "world peace".

Quote from: Yaakov ben Avraham on June 12, 2015, 09:58:23 PM

There are several different ways of interpreting Isaiah 9:5-6, but none of them have to do with Yeshu.

I believe he is yet to come.

I am inclined to agree.

Quote from: stealthflight on June 12, 2015, 10:21:52 PM

Quote from: Yaakov ben Avraham on June 12, 2015, 09:58:23 PM

There are several different ways of interpreting Isaiah 9:5-6, but none of them have to do with Yeshu.

I believe he is yet to come.

I am inclined to agree.

What's he waiting for?

Quote from: Yaakov ben Avraham on June 13, 2015, 05:26:20 AM

Quote from: stealthflight on June 12, 2015, 10:21:52 PM

Quote from: Yaakov ben Avraham on June 12, 2015, 09:58:23 PM

There are several different ways of interpreting Isaiah 9:5-6, but none of them have to do with Yeshu.

I believe he is yet to come.

I am inclined to agree.

What's he waiting for?

He's busy.  Well, I hear he drinks a lot.....but let's leave it at busy, shall we?