Poll

Were the Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings necessary?

Yes, they were necessary to get Imperial Japan to surrender and end World War II
No, they were not necessary to Imperial Japan's surrender

Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings

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Scroto Gaggins

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2015, 01:37:15 AM »
Considering the Japanese were already trying to engage in peace talks before the atomic bombs were dropped, I'd say no.

Can you cite a source? I haven't heard of this before

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#Attempts_to_deal_with_the_Soviet_Union

Yea, from what I've read of that section of the article, it seems like the Japanese government (or parts of it) rejected unconditional surrender in these talks, meaning all or most of the Japanese government was in favor of continous warfare. In fact, from that section:

Quote from: Minister of Foreign Affairs Shigenori Tōgō
His Majesty the Emperor, mindful of the fact that the present war daily brings greater evil and sacrifice upon the peoples of all the belligerent powers, desires from his heart that it may be quickly terminated. But so long as England and the United States insist upon unconditional surrender, the Japanese Empire has no alternative but to fight on with all its strength for the honor and existence of the Motherland.

Quote from: Minister of Foreign Affairs Shigenori Tōgō
Although the directing powers, and the government as well, are convinced that our war strength still can deliver considerable blows to the enemy, we are unable to feel absolutely secure peace of mind ... Please bear particularly in mind, however, that we are not seeking the Russians' mediation for anything like an unconditional surrender.

 I don't see how this invalidates the use of the bombs to end the war

Everything you've said here is false. Japan was in talks about surrender with the US, and were willing to. The only side that had a problem with these talks were the Americans who wanted to use Hiroshima and Nagasaki as guiena pigs for their first real attempts at using an atomic weapon on human beings. America provoked Japan into Pearl Harbor to begin with, so WWII was mostly their fault anyways.

Japan wasn't unwillingly to surrender with conditions, they are actually an extremely peaceful country... probably the most peaceful on Earth. That's why they immediately outlawed war after WWII.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_9_of_the_Japanese_Constitution

America could learn a thing or two from Japan.
Wasn't that clause forced on them as part of the treaty?
They are taking the hobbits to Isengard.

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2015, 05:44:11 AM »
Considering the Japanese were already trying to engage in peace talks before the atomic bombs were dropped, I'd say no.

Can you cite a source? I haven't heard of this before

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#Attempts_to_deal_with_the_Soviet_Union

Yea, from what I've read of that section of the article, it seems like the Japanese government (or parts of it) rejected unconditional surrender in these talks, meaning all or most of the Japanese government was in favor of continous warfare. In fact, from that section:

Quote from: Minister of Foreign Affairs Shigenori Tōgō
His Majesty the Emperor, mindful of the fact that the present war daily brings greater evil and sacrifice upon the peoples of all the belligerent powers, desires from his heart that it may be quickly terminated. But so long as England and the United States insist upon unconditional surrender, the Japanese Empire has no alternative but to fight on with all its strength for the honor and existence of the Motherland.

Quote from: Minister of Foreign Affairs Shigenori Tōgō
Although the directing powers, and the government as well, are convinced that our war strength still can deliver considerable blows to the enemy, we are unable to feel absolutely secure peace of mind ... Please bear particularly in mind, however, that we are not seeking the Russians' mediation for anything like an unconditional surrender.

 I don't see how this invalidates the use of the bombs to end the war

Everything you've said here is false. Japan was in talks about surrender with the US, and were willing to. The only side that had a problem with these talks were the Americans who wanted to use Hiroshima and Nagasaki as guiena pigs for their first real attempts at using an atomic weapon on human beings. America provoked Japan into Pearl Harbor to begin with, so WWII was mostly their fault anyways.

Japan wasn't unwillingly to surrender with conditions, they are actually an extremely peaceful country... probably the most peaceful on Earth. That's why they immediately outlawed war after WWII.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_9_of_the_Japanese_Constitution

America could learn a thing or two from Japan.
Wasn't that clause forced on them as part of the treaty?

Yes, it was.

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Art Corvelay

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2015, 08:28:31 AM »
Once again. You're both wrong. It wasn't... And even if it was, that clause is still around today. Far after any treaty was ever made.

You should really learn something about history instead of posting nonsense. You realize people are reading these threads wanting accurate information, yes? Then, please provide it. There was no "you can't have war" clause as part of Japan's surrender. They were forced to have a limited military, but that's it... and even that has expired. The fact is, far after WW2, Japan still chooses to be peaceful and anti-war. And America is still starting wars over oil and land. Compare the two.

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WallE

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2015, 09:20:40 AM »
The Americans gave a ultimatum to Japan before throwing the bombs, which they allegedly refuted. But it could have been a wrong translation of the answer given by them. In fact Truman really wanted to throw the bombs. As Molotov remarked: it was actually a message for us. Well that's politics...

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2015, 10:01:15 AM »
I've never heard such bulls--- in my life, but then, talk to any survivor of Japanese hellships, or the Comfort Women, or extremely brutally treated POWs, or... You are talking about a country that was a feudal state run by Samurai until 1868. Yes. The "No War" clause was forced upon them by the surrender document written up by General MacArthur.

If you still think that the Japanese were glorious peaceniks, ask anyone who lived through the Rape of Nanking (modern spelling Nanjing) and see just how peaceful the Japanese were.

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Art Corvelay

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2015, 10:16:43 AM »
I've never heard such bulls--- in my life, but then, talk to any survivor of Japanese hellships, or the Comfort Women, or extremely brutally treated POWs, or... You are talking about a country that was a feudal state run by Samurai until 1868. Yes. The "No War" clause was forced upon them by the surrender document written up by General MacArthur.

If you still think that the Japanese were glorious peaceniks, ask anyone who lived through the Rape of Nanking (modern spelling Nanjing) and see just how peaceful the Japanese were.

Yaakov, just because you make things up doesn't mean it's true. I really expected more from you, Yaakov. Regardless, you're missing the point. There were conditions, but that's not one of them. Let's say you are correct (you're not, but whatever), the treaty is practically irrelevant now and the Japanese are allowed to wage war and have an army... yet they still don't. And you still think they're a warmongering country? Get a grip with reality, you brain-washed American psycho. The history books are generous to you in America, huh?

What really prompted the clause in their constitution outlawing War as a means of resolving conflicts and expansion was that America, despite the fact that Japan was trying to surrender, still dropped a-bombs on Japan and killed countless people. It was a terrible tragedy. Japan has seen the horrors of war, and wishes no longer to be a part of it.

Now all we need is someone to a-bomb several American cities, and then hopefully they'll learn something and change their warmongering ways. Great tragedy and loss creates change, and America will continue to wage wars of expansion and greed until they've suffered a terrible tragedy because of their actions (like Japan)... hopefully something like that happens soon.  I can think of several good targets.

Have you even read this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Instrument_of_Surrender

Please. Please. Please. Do not make uninformed posts. It's tedious and boring. I expected much more from you, Jew.

Quote from: wikipedia
The source of the pacifist clause is disputed. According to the Allied Supreme Commander Douglas MacArthur, the provision was suggested by Prime Minister Kijūrō Shidehara, who "wanted it to prohibit any military establishment for Japan—any military establishment whatsoever." Shidehara's perspective was that retention of arms would be "meaningless" for the Japanese in the postwar era, because any substandard postwar military would no longer gain the respect of the people, and would actually cause people to obsess with the subject of rearming Japan

It has nothing to do with surrender conditions, Yaakov. Do some damn research the next time you post. Every time you respond to me it's pure bollocks. The Japanese came up with this clause, not the Americans. Believe me, America wants war because it's profitable. Japan couldn't care less because they are above it, and they do extremely well because of it. Consider this a lesson to you, Yaakov. And a warning.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 10:39:43 AM by Art Corvelay »

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2015, 11:45:10 AM »
Quote
Please. Please. Please. Do not make uninformed posts. It's tedious and boring. I expected much more from you, Jew.

Quote from: wikipedia
The source of the pacifist clause is disputed. According to the Allied Supreme Commander Douglas MacArthur, the provision was suggested by Prime Minister Kijūrō Shidehara, who "wanted it to prohibit any military establishment for Japan—any military establishment whatsoever." Shidehara's perspective was that retention of arms would be "meaningless" for the Japanese in the postwar era, because any substandard postwar military would no longer gain the respect of the people, and would actually cause people to obsess with the subject of rearming Japan


It has nothing to do with surrender conditions, Yaakov. Do some damn research the next time you post. Every time you respond to me it's pure bollocks. The Japanese came up with this clause, not the Americans. Believe me, America wants war because it's profitable. Japan couldn't care less because they are above it, and they do extremely well because of it. Consider this a lesson to you, Yaakov. And a warning.

Consider yourself reported for anti-semitism. Furthermore, yes, there were wise elements of the Japanese Government that concurred with the General about the need to impose Article 9 on the Japanese people. And today, Japan is indeed very anti-war. No one disputes either of those things. But at the time, the people were mostly ignorant of anything going on in their government, and certainly not anti-war. I never suggested that Japan today was war-mongering in any sense. Perhaps you read into things more than you should. Grow up. Then again, I am talking to someone who believes that earth was attacked by aliens with nukes millions of years ago. Perhaps I should have remembered that when I started posting. Your intelligence has always been a bit, well, in question, if you will.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 12:08:21 PM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

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Art Corvelay

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2015, 12:13:36 PM »
Quote
Please. Please. Please. Do not make uninformed posts. It's tedious and boring. I expected much more from you, Jew.

Quote from: wikipedia
The source of the pacifist clause is disputed. According to the Allied Supreme Commander Douglas MacArthur, the provision was suggested by Prime Minister Kijūrō Shidehara, who "wanted it to prohibit any military establishment for Japan—any military establishment whatsoever." Shidehara's perspective was that retention of arms would be "meaningless" for the Japanese in the postwar era, because any substandard postwar military would no longer gain the respect of the people, and would actually cause people to obsess with the subject of rearming Japan


It has nothing to do with surrender conditions, Yaakov. Do some damn research the next time you post. Every time you respond to me it's pure bollocks. The Japanese came up with this clause, not the Americans. Believe me, America wants war because it's profitable. Japan couldn't care less because they are above it, and they do extremely well because of it. Consider this a lesson to you, Yaakov. And a warning.

Consider yourself reported for anti-semitism. Furthermore, yes, there were wise elements of the Japanese Government that concurred with the General about the need to impose Article 9 on the Japanese people. And today, Japan is indeed very anti-war. No one disputes either of those things. But at the time, the people were mostly ignorant of anything going on in their government, and certainly not anti-war. I never suggested that Japan today was war-mongering in any sense. Perhaps you read into things more than you should. Grow up. Then again, I am talking to someone who believes that earth was attacked by aliens with nukes millions of years ago. Perhaps I should have remembered that when I started posting. Your intelligence has always been a bit, well, in question, if you will.

Once again, the General had nothing to do with it. Please research these topics before you post your uninformed nonsense. I am trying to be as truthful and accurate as possible, unfortunately I cannot say the same for you. I even posted the relevant information for you. Can you read, Yaakov?

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2015, 12:17:55 PM »
I'm just waiting for the Moderators at this point. I don't even care about the argument. Enjoy. Again, I already know I am talking to a guy with an IQ of about 12.

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Art Corvelay

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2015, 12:20:20 PM »
I'm just waiting for the Moderators at this point. I don't even care about the argument. Enjoy. Again, I already know I am talking to a guy with an IQ of about 12.

Moderators don't ban or take action against on-topic posting, Yaakov. They are not your personal army. At least I'm accurate with my information. Is there a reason you're unwilling to admit that you're wrong? All the relevant information has been linked to you. Nowhere does it say that Article 9 was a condition for surrender (like you claimed). No where does it say that Article 9 was General MacArthur's idea. You have been wrong about everything so far, do you do this on purpose?

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2015, 12:23:18 PM »
I'm talking about the anti-Semitism. Not the rest of it. the fact that you are full of shit, and Wikipedia can't be used as a valid source because literally ANYONE can write for it is beside the point.

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Art Corvelay

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2015, 12:25:40 PM »
I'm talking about the anti-Semitism. Not the rest of it. the fact that you are full of shit, and Wikipedia can't be used as a valid source because literally ANYONE can write for it is beside the point.

Oh so now you're using the tired "wikipedia isn't a valid source" argument. I guess that's the only course of action you have left now that you've been called out for providing false information. Of course Wikipedia's not a valid source, the actual SOURCES for the information are the valid source. You do realize that each point in the article has sources at the bottom of the page, yes? Do you know how wikipedia works? Or do you want to dispute each source for the information in the article? If so, I eagerly await your reply.

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2015, 12:29:40 PM »
I'm not going to waste my time, since each source has a counter-source that could be dredged up. Its not worth it to me. But like I said, I don't dispute that the Japanese today are very anti-war, far more so than Americans. That has never been in dispute. And that is their business. As for whose idea it was for Article 9, you would have to find me that actual source for the Wiki article that said that before I would accept it, and even then I would question it, since in all my years getting an MA in history that was never something i learned. But no, I did not report you over any of this. I reported you because you're an anti-Semitic asshole.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 12:38:17 PM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

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Art Corvelay

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2015, 12:32:38 PM »
I'm not going to waste my time, since each source has a counter-source that could be dredged up. Its not worth it to me. But like I said, I don't dispute that the Japanese today are very anti-war, far more so than Americans. That has never been in dispute. And that is their business. As for whose idea it was for Article 9, you would have to find me that actual source for the Wiki article that said that before I would accept it, and even then I would question it, since in all my years getting an MA in history that was never something i learned. But no, I did not report you over any of this. I reported you because your an anti-Semitic asshole.

So now you're simply refusing to discus the topic at hand? You do realize you're off-topic at this point, yes?

If you think "I have an MA in history" makes you a valid source or excuses you for posting blatantly wrong information then you're mistaken. Here's a good tip: The sources are at the bottom of the Wikipedia article. Maybe take some time to research it yourself? I have already done my research, clearly you have not. The links are only a few posts back. Shouldn't be very hard.

Please do not respond to me if you're not going to be on topic. Take your bitchy Jew attitude to Complete Nonsense, because that's where you belong, troll.

And it's "You're", by the way. Seems like your college education is failing you.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 12:35:07 PM by Art Corvelay »

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2015, 12:34:55 PM »
Also reported for anti-semitism.  I'll grant the orthographic error. I typed it in a hurry. Your total lack of education is failing you. Anyone who can believe that we were attacked by nuclear weapons to kill the dinosaurs needs to be put away, but then...
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 12:40:15 PM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

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Art Corvelay

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2015, 12:42:52 PM »
Also reported for anti-semitism.  I'll grant the orthographic error. I typed it in a hurry. Your total lack of education is failing you. Anyone who can believe that we were attacked by nuclear weapons to kill the dinosaurs needs to be put away, but then...

Please stop stealing my insults and using them as your own. It's not clever, it's just lazy. Also, please stay on topic. This isn't about dinosaurs, Yaakov. It's about the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Are you lost?

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2015, 12:44:48 PM »
Actually, last I checked, we were on the topic of you being an anti-Semitic ass, and me reporting you for it.

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Art Corvelay

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2015, 12:46:54 PM »
Actually, last I checked, we were on the topic of you being an anti-Semitic fuck-tard, and me reporting you for it.

Unless you can grow some balls and man-up, this is my last post in response to you. Never were we talking about antisemitism. That's all you, buddy. Seems like you have a persecution complex. Might I suggest a therapist?

Feel free to make an on-topic post in response to my arguments if you'd like. If not, you won't hear from me again until I have to correct another one of your numerous mistakes.

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2015, 12:51:39 PM »
I don't give a flying fuck if you respond to me or not, you filthy shegetz mamzer pig. You're an anti-Semitic asswipe who needs to have his ass kicked. I only hope that there is a Jew nearby that will be able to do the honours, since you are such a piece of garbage. I haven't made the mistakes. You have. Take your schmuck self and go back to Mummy's basement, where you are currently located, since you can't survive outside of the keyboard, for fear that you might actually have to deal with the real world. Asshole.

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Art Corvelay

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2015, 12:53:55 PM »
I don't give a flying fuck if you respond to me or not, you filthy shegetz mamzer pig. You're an anti-Semitic asswipe who needs to have his ass kicked. I only hope that there is a Jew nearby that will be able to do the honours, since you are such a piece of garbage. I haven't made the mistakes. You have. Take your schmuck self and go back to Mummy's basement, where you are currently located, since you can't survive outside of the keyboard, for fear that you might actually have to deal with the real world. Asshole.

So you gave factually wrong information and you still claim that I made the mistake? You tell me to grow up, but it seems you're the one who needs growing up, Yaakov.

The bottom line here is this:
Japan is a peaceful country that wanted to surrender to the Americans. The Americans didn't care and dropped nukes on them anyways. Japan then outlawed war at their own discretion without influence from America. This is all well documented, sourced, and accurate. Please stay on topic. I want to discuss Hiroshima and Nagasaki, not you're persecution complex.

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2015, 12:54:49 PM »
Like I said, I was not factually wrong. You got your data from a suspect source. that invalidates it.

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Art Corvelay

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2015, 12:56:07 PM »
Like I said, I was not factually wrong. You got your data from a suspect source. that invalidates it.

Now you sound like a Flat Earther. Congratulations, Yaakov.

The bottom line here is this:
Japan is a peaceful country that wanted to surrender to the Americans. The Americans didn't care and dropped nukes on them anyways. Japan then outlawed war at their own discretion without influence from America. Japan has not used military force for anything since then, and still maintains a very peaceful culture of anti-war. Unlike America. This is all well documented, sourced, and accurate. Please stay on topic. I want to discuss Hiroshima and Nagasaki, not your persecution complex.

This flies in the face of everything you said. You were wrong. Admit it and calm the hell down.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 12:58:36 PM by Art Corvelay »

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2015, 12:58:11 PM »
Your data suggesting that Japan wished to surrender on her own is questionable and has been debated ever since the war ended. That question has still not been answered satisfactorily. Had they wished to do so, they had three days between the bombing of the first city and that of the second. They did not. That kind of makes a wash of your theory.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 01:00:54 PM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

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Art Corvelay

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2015, 01:01:07 PM »
Your data suggesting that Japan wished to surrender on her own is questionable and has been debated ever since the war ended. That question has still not been answered satisfactorily. Had they wished to do so, they had three days between the bombing of the first city and that of the second. They did not. that kind of makes a wash of your theory.

Irrelevant. You were mainly wrong about Article 9, and that's not a debated point. There's plenty of information (that I have already linked) that shows that Japan wanted to outlaw war, not that they were "forced" to by America like you claim. It is typical for Americans to make it seem like Japan was the bad guy, but the true instigator in WW2 was America. Of course, I can't blame you, I'm sure your history books are filled with erroneous bullshit.

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2015, 01:05:45 PM »
Even that subject is debatable at best. There is no solid evidence that everyone in the Japanese Government would have gone along with the idea of Article 9. There was one person. That individual was NOT the entire Government. It was still forced upon the Government by us. Fortunately for me, I do have better things to do at the moment (namely, go and smoke a cigarette and finish the laundry). I am not going to repeat myself. Its not my fault you are too stupid to read. You evidently haven't talked to any Australian who survived the Bataan Death March. I suggest you have a conversation with a few.It might change your fucked up perspective a bit.

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Art Corvelay

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #55 on: May 19, 2015, 01:09:15 PM »
Even that subject is debatable at best. There is no solid evidence that everyone in the Japanese Government would have gone along with the idea of Article 9. There was one person. That individual was NOT the entire Government. It was still forced upon the Government by us. Fortunately for me, I do have better things to do at the moment (namely, go and smoke a cigarette and finish the laundry). I am not going to repeat myself. Its not my fault you are too stupid to read. You evidently haven't talked to any Australian who survived the Bataan Death March. I suggest you have a conversation with a few.It might change your fucked up perspective a bit.

Please reread the links I gave you. You will clearly see that many in the Japanese government were in favor of Article 9... otherwise it would have never been implemented to begin with. Funny, regardless, that you're dropping the whole "General Herrdurrr forced them" position, because that claim has been utterly destroyed I guess?

God, use common sense. Mix that with factual information (that I have linked you), then rethink your position. You're completely wrong and you know it, yet you're trying sooo hard to appear in the right. Why is that?

Please reread all the relevant information I linked you, then respond. Otherwise, what are we arguing about? Opinions? Please. Please. Please. Learn how to debate. The first step is understanding the material.

Once you understand the material, let me know and we can continue... until then... please shut up. You look like a fool.

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2015, 01:27:14 PM »
I'm not dropping it at all. I merely agree that one person in the Government concurred with the General. I maintain that the General initiated the idea. I have NEVER learned otherwise, and I suspect that any source that teaches otherwise is infected with modern day politically correct bullshit.

Now, had to go out for my cigarette. Sorry about that. the apt is non-smoking. Even if it weren't, my asthmatic wife is. And she would have my ass for anti-matter if she smelled the stuff in the house! I think we can both agree, "Happy Wife, Happy Life!"   ;D ;D ;D

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Art Corvelay

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #57 on: May 19, 2015, 01:30:54 PM »
Have you ever heard the saying: "History is written by the victors"?

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2015, 01:35:25 PM »
Have you ever heard the saying: "History is written by the victors"?

Of course I have. But that kind of thing is increasingly hard to do the higher up you go. You may be able to pull that shit in Grade School and High School and even in College, but once you hit Graduate School its harder to accomplish. It can be done, but its harder. Any Student (and Professor; I've been both) is expected to read all sides of a thing. I've had to teach University courses, specifically World and American History. Its hard to only take the victor's side at that point, ESPECIALLY in today's modern age of Political Correctness and Liberal Bullshit that passes for education.

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The Ellimist

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2015, 03:10:50 PM »
Considering the Japanese were already trying to engage in peace talks before the atomic bombs were dropped, I'd say no.

Can you cite a source? I haven't heard of this before

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#Attempts_to_deal_with_the_Soviet_Union

Yea, from what I've read of that section of the article, it seems like the Japanese government (or parts of it) rejected unconditional surrender in these talks, meaning all or most of the Japanese government was in favor of continous warfare. In fact, from that section:

Quote from: Minister of Foreign Affairs Shigenori Tōgō
His Majesty the Emperor, mindful of the fact that the present war daily brings greater evil and sacrifice upon the peoples of all the belligerent powers, desires from his heart that it may be quickly terminated. But so long as England and the United States insist upon unconditional surrender, the Japanese Empire has no alternative but to fight on with all its strength for the honor and existence of the Motherland.

Quote from: Minister of Foreign Affairs Shigenori Tōgō
Although the directing powers, and the government as well, are convinced that our war strength still can deliver considerable blows to the enemy, we are unable to feel absolutely secure peace of mind ... Please bear particularly in mind, however, that we are not seeking the Russians' mediation for anything like an unconditional surrender.

 I don't see how this invalidates the use of the bombs to end the war

Everything you've said here is false. Japan was in talks about surrender with the US, and were willing to. The only side that had a problem with these talks were the Americans who wanted to use Hiroshima and Nagasaki as guiena pigs for their first real attempts at using an atomic weapon on human beings. America provoked Japan into Pearl Harbor to begin with, so WWII was mostly their fault anyways.

Cite your sources please.
Additionally, we cannot entirely rule out the nefarious effects of demons, spirits, gnomes, and wizards on our society's ability to comprehend our flat earth as it really is.