Poll

Were the Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings necessary?

Yes, they were necessary to get Imperial Japan to surrender and end World War II
No, they were not necessary to Imperial Japan's surrender
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Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings

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The Ellimist

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Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« on: May 16, 2015, 06:23:58 PM »
I have had this topic come up in other discussions. Personally I think they were necessary to Japan's surrender. I would like to hear other's thoughts.
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Rama Set

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2015, 07:08:35 PM »
Considering the Japanese were already trying to engage in peace talks before the atomic bombs were dropped, I'd say no.
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The Ellimist

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2015, 07:17:28 PM »
Quote from: Rama Set on May 16, 2015, 07:08:35 PM
Considering the Japanese were already trying to engage in peace talks before the atomic bombs were dropped, I'd say no.

Can you cite a source? I haven't heard of this before
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hoppy

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2015, 07:19:50 PM »
They were both fire bombed and burned to the ground. Atomic bombs are not real.
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Misero

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2015, 07:58:22 PM »
Funny how fire bombs leave radiation effects similar to that of radiation therapy.
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The Ellimist

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2015, 08:14:04 PM »
Quote from: Misero on May 16, 2015, 07:58:22 PM
Funny how fire bombs leave radiation effects similar to that of radiation therapy.

Ignore hoppy's derailing. What's your stance Misero?
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Quote from: Flatso on September 14, 2014, 01:06:26 PM
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hoppy

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2015, 08:59:35 PM »
Quote from: Misero on May 16, 2015, 07:58:22 PM
Funny how fire bombs leave radiation effects similar to that of radiation therapy.
Have you ever investigated the possibility that conventional bobms are what took out those cities? Or do you automatically believe the government propaganda concerning this.
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Rama Set

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2015, 10:09:28 PM »
Quote from: The Ellimist on May 16, 2015, 07:17:28 PM
Quote from: Rama Set on May 16, 2015, 07:08:35 PM
Considering the Japanese were already trying to engage in peace talks before the atomic bombs were dropped, I'd say no.

Can you cite a source? I haven't heard of this before

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#Attempts_to_deal_with_the_Soviet_Union
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mikeman7918

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2015, 10:51:31 PM »
Quote from: hoppy on May 16, 2015, 08:59:35 PM
Quote from: Misero on May 16, 2015, 07:58:22 PM
Funny how fire bombs leave radiation effects similar to that of radiation therapy.
Have you ever investigated the possibility that conventional bobms are what took out those cities? Or do you automatically believe the government propaganda concerning this.

Do you have any idea how big these bombs were?  Their power is measured in megatons and one megaton is the energy of one million tons of TNT.  The bombs in question had about 5 megatons of energy.  To put that in perspective, if you were to make a skyscraper sized block of TNT then it would have about 1/5 the power of those atomic bombs.

So did the Americans drop clusters of skyscraper sized bombs on Japan?  Also, how would they have faked the radiation?  Did they also put radioactive waste in their skyscraper sized bombs?  Radiation was the reason for a significant amount of deaths caused by the atomic bombs dropped on Japan.
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th3rm0m3t3r0

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2015, 11:18:58 PM »
Sorry for the off topic, but there were people who got hit with both bombs.
How unfortunate!
Can you imagine?
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abaaaabbbb63

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2015, 11:38:51 PM »
Quote from: th3rm0m3t3r0 on May 16, 2015, 11:18:58 PM
Sorry for the off topic, but there were people who got hit with both bombs.
How unfortunate!
Can you imagine?

People that fled from one city to the other?

Worst luck ever.
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th3rm0m3t3r0

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2015, 11:44:39 PM »
Quote from: abaaaabbbb63 on May 16, 2015, 11:38:51 PM
Quote from: th3rm0m3t3r0 on May 16, 2015, 11:18:58 PM
Sorry for the off topic, but there were people who got hit with both bombs.
How unfortunate!
Can you imagine?

People that fled from one city to the other?

Worst luck ever.
This guy is the only one who was recognized by Japan. (He lived until he was 93!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsutomu_Yamaguchi
Quote
Although at least 160 people are known to have been affected by both bombings, he is the only person to have been officially recognized by the government of Japan as surviving both explosions.
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The Ellimist

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2015, 12:08:30 AM »
Quote from: Rama Set on May 16, 2015, 10:09:28 PM
Quote from: The Ellimist on May 16, 2015, 07:17:28 PM
Quote from: Rama Set on May 16, 2015, 07:08:35 PM
Considering the Japanese were already trying to engage in peace talks before the atomic bombs were dropped, I'd say no.

Can you cite a source? I haven't heard of this before

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#Attempts_to_deal_with_the_Soviet_Union

Yea, from what I've read of that section of the article, it seems like the Japanese government (or parts of it) rejected unconditional surrender in these talks, meaning all or most of the Japanese government was in favor of continous warfare. In fact, from that section:

Quote from: Minister of Foreign Affairs Shigenori Tōgō
His Majesty the Emperor, mindful of the fact that the present war daily brings greater evil and sacrifice upon the peoples of all the belligerent powers, desires from his heart that it may be quickly terminated. But so long as England and the United States insist upon unconditional surrender, the Japanese Empire has no alternative but to fight on with all its strength for the honor and existence of the Motherland.

Quote from: Minister of Foreign Affairs Shigenori Tōgō
Although the directing powers, and the government as well, are convinced that our war strength still can deliver considerable blows to the enemy, we are unable to feel absolutely secure peace of mind ... Please bear particularly in mind, however, that we are not seeking the Russians' mediation for anything like an unconditional surrender.

 I don't see how this invalidates the use of the bombs to end the war
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abaaaabbbb63

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2015, 12:08:59 AM »
Quote from: th3rm0m3t3r0 on May 16, 2015, 11:44:39 PM
This guy is the only one who was recognized by Japan. (He lived until he was 93!)

Died of stomach cancer, the poor fella. One of the worst cancers.
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Weatherwax

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2015, 12:34:52 AM »
There was probably no need for the second one. But tragic though it was, if it wasn't for the bombs Japan would have been invaded by the Red Army and probably made of the Soviet Union. So the bombs were probably the lesser of two evils.
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mikeman7918

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2015, 12:41:01 AM »
In reply to the original topic, my opinion on the atomic bombs is that dropping them was not the only way to win the war but it was the best way.  The alternative would be to invade Japan in a long battle where both the Americans and the Japanese would loose a lot of people and it didn't even have a 100% chance of success.  I think that such an invasion could have won the war but the war would have lasted longer and it's even possible that more people might have died.  I believe that the atomic bombs being dropped saved lives in the long run by ending WWII.
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Scroto Gaggins

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2015, 02:59:03 AM »
Quote from: mikeman7918 on May 17, 2015, 12:41:01 AM
In reply to the original topic, my opinion on the atomic bombs is that dropping them was not the only way to win the war but it was the best way.  The alternative would be to invade Japan in a long battle where both the Americans and the Japanese would loose a lot of people and it didn't even have a 100% chance of success.  I think that such an invasion could have won the war but the war would have lasted longer and it's even possible that more people might have died.  I believe that the atomic bombs being dropped saved lives in the long run by ending WWII.
There was always the option of leaving Japan to "wither on the vine" like Rabaul or Truk.
ie Surround it and cut off all supplies getting in.
No invasion necessary, no threat from a starving Japan. Then the Japanese emperor could either surrender or starve.

Win-Win
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The Ellimist

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2015, 04:16:00 AM »
Quote from: Scroto Gaggins on May 17, 2015, 02:59:03 AM
Quote from: mikeman7918 on May 17, 2015, 12:41:01 AM
In reply to the original topic, my opinion on the atomic bombs is that dropping them was not the only way to win the war but it was the best way.  The alternative would be to invade Japan in a long battle where both the Americans and the Japanese would loose a lot of people and it didn't even have a 100% chance of success.  I think that such an invasion could have won the war but the war would have lasted longer and it's even possible that more people might have died.  I believe that the atomic bombs being dropped saved lives in the long run by ending WWII.
There was always the option of leaving Japan to "wither on the vine" like Rabaul or Truk.
ie Surround it and cut off all supplies getting in.
No invasion necessary, no threat from a starving Japan. Then the Japanese emperor could either surrender or starve.

Win-Win

They could have done that, but that would have just increased casualties (starving Japan would still be a threat, I think), and extended the war for another year or so. The U.S was looking for an endgame, not extended conflict. Also, there's the issue of land occupied by Imperial Japan outside the mainland, which would mean a blockade would have their backs to forces in Thailand, French Indochina, regions in China etc....
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Scroto Gaggins

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2015, 05:34:20 AM »
Quote from: The Ellimist on May 17, 2015, 04:16:00 AM
Quote from: Scroto Gaggins on May 17, 2015, 02:59:03 AM
Quote from: mikeman7918 on May 17, 2015, 12:41:01 AM
In reply to the original topic, my opinion on the atomic bombs is that dropping them was not the only way to win the war but it was the best way.  The alternative would be to invade Japan in a long battle where both the Americans and the Japanese would loose a lot of people and it didn't even have a 100% chance of success.  I think that such an invasion could have won the war but the war would have lasted longer and it's even possible that more people might have died.  I believe that the atomic bombs being dropped saved lives in the long run by ending WWII.
There was always the option of leaving Japan to "wither on the vine" like Rabaul or Truk.
ie Surround it and cut off all supplies getting in.
No invasion necessary, no threat from a starving Japan. Then the Japanese emperor could either surrender or starve.

Win-Win

They could have done that, but that would have just increased casualties (starving Japan would still be a threat, I think), and extended the war for another year or so. The U.S was looking for an endgame, not extended conflict. Also, there's the issue of land occupied by Imperial Japan outside the mainland, which would mean a blockade would have their backs to forces in Thailand, French Indochina, regions in China etc....
My post was in response to mikeman saying that the only alternative to Nuclear bombing was invasion.
Which it wasn't.
They could have also cut off all supplies necessary to war production and let Japan alone, angry but harmless.
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Rama Set

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2015, 06:18:19 AM »
Quote from: The Ellimist on May 17, 2015, 12:08:30 AM
Quote from: Rama Set on May 16, 2015, 10:09:28 PM
Quote from: The Ellimist on May 16, 2015, 07:17:28 PM
Quote from: Rama Set on May 16, 2015, 07:08:35 PM
Considering the Japanese were already trying to engage in peace talks before the atomic bombs were dropped, I'd say no.

Can you cite a source? I haven't heard of this before

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#Attempts_to_deal_with_the_Soviet_Union

Yea, from what I've read of that section of the article, it seems like the Japanese government (or parts of it) rejected unconditional surrender in these talks, meaning all or most of the Japanese government was in favor of continous warfare. In fact, from that section:

Quote from: Minister of Foreign Affairs Shigenori Tōgō
His Majesty the Emperor, mindful of the fact that the present war daily brings greater evil and sacrifice upon the peoples of all the belligerent powers, desires from his heart that it may be quickly terminated. But so long as England and the United States insist upon unconditional surrender, the Japanese Empire has no alternative but to fight on with all its strength for the honor and existence of the Motherland.

Quote from: Minister of Foreign Affairs Shigenori Tōgō
Although the directing powers, and the government as well, are convinced that our war strength still can deliver considerable blows to the enemy, we are unable to feel absolutely secure peace of mind ... Please bear particularly in mind, however, that we are not seeking the Russians' mediation for anything like an unconditional surrender.

 I don't see how this invalidates the use of the bombs to end the war

The ongoing campaign of carpet bombing was causing more than enough damage, victory was inevitable. From what I read, the US and UK were willing to soften off of unconditional surrender but Russia stone walled the peace process.

Quote
To this end, Stalin and Molotov strung out the negotiations with the Japanese, giving them false hope of a Soviet-mediated peace.[56] At the same time, in their dealings with the United States and Britain, the Soviets insisted on strict adherence to the Cairo Declaration, re-affirmed at the Yalta Conference, that the Allies would not accept separate or conditional peace with Japan. The Japanese would have to surrender unconditionally to all the Allies. To prolong the war, the Soviets opposed any attempt to weaken this requirement.[56] This would give the Soviets time to complete the transfer of their troops from the Western Front to the Far East, and conquer Manchuria (Manchukuo), Inner Mongolia (Mengjiang), Korea, Sakhalin, the Kuriles, and possibly, Hokkaidō[57] (starting with a landing at Rumoi).[58]

That being said, I actually think the atomic bombs were a little more humane than fire bombing so although the bombs were not necessary, i think it ended the war sooner than conventional means would have.
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Weatherwax

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2015, 07:19:41 AM »
I think you also need to try to understand the mindset of the time. There had been nearly 6 years of war (well, only 3 for the US ;)) and millions were dead on all sides. Dropping  a huge bomb wasn't as shocking then as seems now. Also the the effects of radiation were not predicted.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 07:22:46 AM by Weatherwax »
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mikeman7918

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2015, 05:07:30 PM »
Quote from: Weatherwax on May 17, 2015, 07:19:41 AM
I think you also need to try to understand the mindset of the time. There had been nearly 6 years of war (well, only 3 for the US ;)) and millions were dead on all sides. Dropping  a huge bomb wasn't as shocking then as seems now. Also the the effects of radiation were not predicted.

Actually the effects of radiation were well known by then.  In fact, my home town where I am right now was effected by radiation from top secret bomb tests.  With all the tests they did of nuclear weapons they had a pretty good idea of what they did.
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Rama Set

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2015, 05:53:28 PM »
Quote from: Weatherwax on May 17, 2015, 07:19:41 AM
I think you also need to try to understand the mindset of the time. There had been nearly 6 years of war (well, only 3 for the US ;)) and millions were dead on all sides. Dropping  a huge bomb wasn't as shocking then as seems now. Also the the effects of radiation were not predicted.

It was shocking enough that dropped no two of them immediately brought Japan to their knees.
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tappet

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2015, 07:25:53 PM »
Quote from: mikeman7918 on May 17, 2015, 05:07:30 PM
Quote from: Weatherwax on May 17, 2015, 07:19:41 AM
I think you also need to try to understand the mindset of the time. There had been nearly 6 years of war (well, only 3 for the US ;)) and millions were dead on all sides. Dropping  a huge bomb wasn't as shocking then as seems now. Also the the effects of radiation were not predicted.

Actually the effects of radiation were well known by then.  In fact, my home town where I am right now was effected by radiation from top secret bomb tests.  With all the tests they did of nuclear weapons they had a pretty good idea of what they did.
Them bastards. Did you have to leave your nuked town? Or have you all stayed and become 6 fingered banjo players?
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mikeman7918

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2015, 09:55:51 PM »
Quote from: tappet on May 17, 2015, 07:25:53 PM
Quote from: mikeman7918 on May 17, 2015, 05:07:30 PM
Quote from: Weatherwax on May 17, 2015, 07:19:41 AM
I think you also need to try to understand the mindset of the time. There had been nearly 6 years of war (well, only 3 for the US ;)) and millions were dead on all sides. Dropping  a huge bomb wasn't as shocking then as seems now. Also the the effects of radiation were not predicted.

Actually the effects of radiation were well known by then.  In fact, my home town where I am right now was effected by radiation from top secret bomb tests.  With all the tests they did of nuclear weapons they had a pretty good idea of what they did.
Them bastards. Did you have to leave your nuked town? Or have you all stayed and become 6 fingered banjo players?

I don't even know anybody who was alive during that time and I certainly wasn't around for it.  My extended family didn't even live here at that time.  I am told that most people stayed not knowing where the radiation was coming from and there was an increased number of cases of cancer.  It wasn't a huge disaster, just a minor tragedy.
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Weatherwax

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2015, 12:05:05 PM »
Quote from: mikeman7918 on May 17, 2015, 05:07:30 PM
Quote from: Weatherwax on May 17, 2015, 07:19:41 AM
I think you also need to try to understand the mindset of the time. There had been nearly 6 years of war (well, only 3 for the US ;)) and millions were dead on all sides. Dropping  a huge bomb wasn't as shocking then as seems now. Also the the effects of radiation were not predicted.

Actually the effects of radiation were well known by then.  In fact, my home town where I am right now was effected by radiation from top secret bomb tests.  With all the tests they did of nuclear weapons they had a pretty good idea of what they did.

What do you "by then"? The very first test (trinity) was only a few weeks before Hiroshima.

The physicists knew there would be some radiation effects, but we're more concerned with the blast force. The military even thought they could march US soldiers through the bombed area immediately after the blast!

The decision-makers - Henry Stimpson and Truman - knew nothing about the effects of radiation.
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Yaakov ben Avraham

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2015, 02:45:28 PM »
I would say the bombs were necessary to end the war. Every single Purple Heart medal issued since 1945 has come from a huge warehouse in Washington, DC where they are stored. They made over a million of the things in preparation for an invasion of Japan that never happened. They were expecting over a million casualties. They haven't had to make a new one since. They fully expected to have to kill every single Japanese man, woman, and child to end the war. The bombs rendered that unnecessary. Ergo, justified.
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Scroto Gaggins

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2015, 04:09:38 PM »
Quote from: Yaakov ben Avraham on May 18, 2015, 02:45:28 PM
I would say the bombs were necessary to end the war. Every single Purple Heart medal issued since 1945 has come from a huge warehouse in Washington, DC where they are stored. They made over a million of the things in preparation for an invasion of Japan that never happened. They were expecting over a million casualties. They haven't had to make a new one since. They fully expected to have to kill every single Japanese man, woman, and child to end the war. The bombs rendered that unnecessary. Ergo, justified.
But was the only alternative to invasion nuclear bombing? Probably not. There were other ways of bringing about a country's surrender.
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Rama Set

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2015, 04:52:14 PM »
Quote from: Yaakov ben Avraham on May 18, 2015, 02:45:28 PM
I would say the bombs were necessary to end the war. Every single Purple Heart medal issued since 1945 has come from a huge warehouse in Washington, DC where they are stored. They made over a million of the things in preparation for an invasion of Japan that never happened. They were expecting over a million casualties. They haven't had to make a new one since. They fully expected to have to kill every single Japanese man, woman, and child to end the war. The bombs rendered that unnecessary. Ergo, justified.

Japan had already come to the table to talk about surrender. They were not necessary except for a weird need for unconditional surrender which even the UK and US were starting to drift from. The USSR are likely the ones to blame for the bombs being felt necessary.
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Quote from: charles bloomington on April 25, 2015, 04:13:06 PM
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Art Corvelay

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2015, 09:27:04 PM »
Quote from: The Ellimist on May 17, 2015, 12:08:30 AM
Quote from: Rama Set on May 16, 2015, 10:09:28 PM
Quote from: The Ellimist on May 16, 2015, 07:17:28 PM
Quote from: Rama Set on May 16, 2015, 07:08:35 PM
Considering the Japanese were already trying to engage in peace talks before the atomic bombs were dropped, I'd say no.

Can you cite a source? I haven't heard of this before

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#Attempts_to_deal_with_the_Soviet_Union

Yea, from what I've read of that section of the article, it seems like the Japanese government (or parts of it) rejected unconditional surrender in these talks, meaning all or most of the Japanese government was in favor of continous warfare. In fact, from that section:

Quote from: Minister of Foreign Affairs Shigenori Tōgō
His Majesty the Emperor, mindful of the fact that the present war daily brings greater evil and sacrifice upon the peoples of all the belligerent powers, desires from his heart that it may be quickly terminated. But so long as England and the United States insist upon unconditional surrender, the Japanese Empire has no alternative but to fight on with all its strength for the honor and existence of the Motherland.

Quote from: Minister of Foreign Affairs Shigenori Tōgō
Although the directing powers, and the government as well, are convinced that our war strength still can deliver considerable blows to the enemy, we are unable to feel absolutely secure peace of mind ... Please bear particularly in mind, however, that we are not seeking the Russians' mediation for anything like an unconditional surrender.

 I don't see how this invalidates the use of the bombs to end the war

Everything you've said here is false. Japan was in talks about surrender with the US, and were willing to. The only side that had a problem with these talks were the Americans who wanted to use Hiroshima and Nagasaki as guiena pigs for their first real attempts at using an atomic weapon on human beings. America provoked Japan into Pearl Harbor to begin with, so WWII was mostly their fault anyways.

Japan wasn't unwillingly to surrender with conditions, they are actually an extremely peaceful country... probably the most peaceful on Earth. That's why they immediately outlawed war after WWII.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_9_of_the_Japanese_Constitution

America could learn a thing or two from Japan.
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