It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4230 on: November 28, 2015, 03:38:43 PM »
fuel wuold fill the chamber if it's pumped in at an higher rate than the one at which it is exiting the chamber. having a vacuum on the other side does not mean that u have an infinite flow exiting the chamber.

yet again, chamber doesn't have to be full of propellant to have a combustion, on the contrary ignited propellant needs space to expand

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markjo

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4231 on: November 28, 2015, 04:43:13 PM »
As you can see from the above, I stated that the gas would leave via the path of least resistance.

This would be directly through the nozzle & into the area of lowest pressure, i.e. the enormous zero-pressure vacuum of 'space'.
Is the "enormous zero-pressure vacuum of 'space'" any different from the vacuum in the combustion chamber before the gas is introduced?  Does that empty space not want to be filled just as much as space?

Why would the gas bounce around inside the combustion chamber, or even fill it, when that is clearly NOT the path of least resistance?
How much resistance is there in a vacuum?  It isn't until the chamber fills up that there is any resistance.

Gasses naturally want to seek equilibrium by going from an area of higher pressure to an area of lower pressure.  The vacuum in the combustion chamber is most certainly an area of low pressure. 
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4232 on: November 28, 2015, 05:26:50 PM »
How much resistance is there in a vacuum?

None, clearly.

Tell me again about this consultation you had with the laws of physics?

It is sounding increasingly unlikely...

It isn't until the chamber fills up that there is any resistance.

Again; why would the chamber 'fill' when the path of least resistance is straight out of it?

And where would this 'resistance' come from anyway, as the vacuum in 'space' is practically infinite?

Really; if you don't stop asking me the same question, in the hope that you will receive an answer more suited to your 'space-travel' fantasies, I will have to ignore you & move on.

Also; you are unhappy when I don't answer your questions, yet now it seems you are unhappy when I do answer them.

Seems somewhat contradictory & hypocritical to me...


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markjo

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4233 on: November 28, 2015, 05:56:10 PM »
How much resistance is there in a vacuum?

None, clearly.
Then there's nothing to resist the gas from expanding into the chamber.  Good to know.

It isn't until the chamber fills up that there is any resistance.

Again; why would the chamber 'fill' when the path of least resistance is straight out of it?
I think that you're confusing "path of least resistance" with "shortest path".  They are not the same thing.  There is no resistance anywhere within the vacuum of the combustion chamber, therefore the entire chamber is the path of least resistance.

Also; you are unhappy when I don't answer your questions, yet now it seems you are unhappy when I do answer them.

Seems somewhat contradictory & hypocritical to me...
Funny, I get the same impression about you.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4234 on: November 28, 2015, 11:25:57 PM »
Gases do not follow the path of least resistance. This is quite simply wrong. Nowhere in the laws of physics does it state this.

What will actually happen is the net flux will tend to be in the direction of the nozzle exit but this is not the same thing. Flux is is the overall net movement of mass if it is positive I one direction it is because the mass moving in that direction is greater than the mass mocing in the opposite direction.

This is important in fluids like gas because they are collections of fast randomly moving particles. In a closed container flux is zero as particles are bouncing around pretty evenly spaced. Open that container to space and the flux will then change towards the exit. This is because whilst particles will start finding their way out, there are no particles coming back in the opposite direction, due to empty vacuum.

This is the reason behind statement "nature abhors a vacuum"; the natural laws governing behaviour is fluids means that the particles behaving randomly will collectively tend to try and fill whatever container or area they are in, and will tend towards an even distribution. The free expansion experiment, for instance, shows this.

Im sure Papa will just LOL at this as he does have a clue how real matter behaves but there you go.
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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4235 on: November 29, 2015, 02:12:28 AM »
There is no resistance anywhere within the vacuum of the combustion chamber, therefore the entire chamber is the path of least resistance.

Why do you keep pretending that the chamber is not open to the vacuum?

It is, & therefore the gas will leave it by the path of least resistance, doing no work on the way.

Gases do not follow the path of least resistance.

When expanding into an area of lower pressure they do.

Which is what we're talking about.

the natural laws governing behaviour is fluids means that the particles behaving randomly will collectively tend to try and fill whatever container or area they are in

Particles that behave both randomly AND collectively?

Whatever; the 'container' or 'area' that a 'spayze-rokkit' is in, is the practically-infinite vacuum of 'space' itself.

So THAT'S what the gases from a 'rokkit-ennjyn' will be trying to fill.

Which is why they would all leave your silly 'combustion chamber' immediately...

By the path of least resistance.

Lastly, I will indeed LOL!!! at this:

Im sure Papa will just LOL at this as he does have a clue how real matter behaves but there you go.

Forgot to include the word 'not', Walt?

Bit of a Freudian slip there?

Toodle-pip!
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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4236 on: November 29, 2015, 02:34:51 AM »

It is, & therefore the gas will leave it by the path of least resistance, doing no work on the way.


yeah cindy, u're only forgettin the combustion and the heat generated. which is turned into propulsion by the nozzle

Which is why they would all leave your silly 'combustion chamber' immediately...

very fast yes, immediately no.

btw u argument is nonsense.
pressure in the combustion chamber is up to 250 bar.
 do u really think that having 1 bar or 0 bar at the open end of the combustion chamber will make any difference?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 02:36:49 AM by luckyfred »

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markjo

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4237 on: November 29, 2015, 09:07:57 AM »
There is no resistance anywhere within the vacuum of the combustion chamber, therefore the entire chamber is the path of least resistance.

Why do you keep pretending that the chamber is not open to the vacuum?
I'm not.  You're the one pretending that a gas won't expand to fill its environment (the combustion chamber), no matter how briefly. 

You're also the one pretending that gas can't be introduced into the chamber faster than it can escape into the vacuum of space, regardless of the physical dimensions of the inlet and outlet openings as well as the flow rate of the gas.

It is, & therefore the gas will leave it by the path of least resistance, doing no work on the way.
During their brief time in the combustion chamber the the gasses (fuel and oxidizer) have a chance to undergo the chemical reaction known as combustion which releases a great deal of energy and causes the gasses to expand even more.  That sounds like work to me.
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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4238 on: November 29, 2015, 09:53:12 AM »
During their brief time in the combustion chamber the the gasses (fuel and oxidizer) have a chance to undergo the chemical reaction known as combustion which releases a great deal of energy and causes the gasses to expand even more. That sounds like work to me.

LULZ!!!

Well, as we've both already agreed that the amount of Work done by a Gas in a Vacuum sums to Zero, I'd say you & your whacky something-from-nothing 'shpayze-rokkit' Ponzi-fraud fantasies are in a bit of trouble, ain't you?

*Yawn!*

Time for you lot to answer one of my questions, don't you think?

Fair's fair, eh?

So; here's my question: Do any of you have a Girlfriend?
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sokarul

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4239 on: November 29, 2015, 10:24:20 AM »
Just think of how strongly you could destroy me by actually explaining why what I said was dumb.

I already did explain.

But you were too dumb to notice.

Because your ignorance is the only 'indestructible' thing about you.
No you didn't.

As I said, you need to learn a vacuum is not a force.
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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4240 on: November 29, 2015, 11:14:25 AM »
Here's what I said, 'indestructible' slow-poke; bear in mind that a vacuum is the very definition of Nothing when you read it, whilst a force is a Thing:

Are there any other things that a vacuum Is Not which you feel the need to inform me of?

*Yawn!*

Also, here is my question which you have just avoided:

Do any of you have Girlfriends?

I have answered your questions; now answer mine.

Wouldn't want to look like hypocrites, would you?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 11:21:48 AM by Papa Legba »
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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4241 on: November 29, 2015, 11:35:09 AM »
oh cindy... i've lost count of all the time u didn't answer

here is the last one for example
btw u argument is nonsense.
pressure in the combustion chamber is up to 250 bar.
 do u really think that having 1 bar or 0 bar at the open end of the combustion chamber will make any difference?

let me guess? u don't understand gibberish? or u've already answer before?
no i think u'll just ignore it, as always....

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sokarul

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4242 on: November 29, 2015, 11:36:42 AM »
Here's what I said, 'indestructible' slow-poke; bear in mind that a vacuum is the very definition of Nothing when you read it, whilst a force is a Thing:

Are there any other things that a vacuum Is Not which you feel the need to inform me of?

So if you agree a vacuum is nothing, why do you keep insisting it's something special?
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markjo

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4243 on: November 29, 2015, 05:16:39 PM »
Well, as we've both already agreed that the amount of Work done by a Gas in a Vacuum sums to Zero, I'd say you & your whacky something-from-nothing 'shpayze-rokkit' Ponzi-fraud fantasies are in a bit of trouble, ain't you?
Amazing.  I never cease to be surprised at how many things you can get wrong in such a small post.

First of all, no, I did not agree to your misguided interpretation of free expansion.  Every reference that I've come across (except yours) describes free expansion in an insulated, closed environment and using an ideal gas (no mass).  This does not describe a rocket in space.

Secondly...   "Gas in a vacuum."  That's an oxymoron, isn't it?  If you introduce a gas into an evacuated space (say a combustion chamber), then it's not a vacuum any more, is it?

Thirdly, what makes you think that it's a "something-from-nothing".  If it was just a matter of releasing gas into a vacuum, you might have a (rather weak) argument.  But it isn't that way. 

Did you ever notice that I keep referring to fuel/oxidizer, combustion, combustion chamber and combustion gasses?  That's because the process of burning fuel and oxidizer releases a great deal of chemical energy.  I wouldn't call all that energy released "nothing".
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 05:18:55 PM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Misero

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4244 on: November 29, 2015, 05:37:06 PM »
So, would each side accept that if this experiment was performed:
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Sometimes I wonder: "Why am  I on this site?"
Then I look at threads about clouds not existing and I go back to posting and lurking. Lurk moar.

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markjo

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4245 on: November 29, 2015, 06:26:16 PM »
So, would each side accept that if this experiment was performed:
???  To which experiment are you referring?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4246 on: November 29, 2015, 06:31:54 PM »
Free expansion says that when the system reaches equilibrium, the total work done is zero.

LULZ!!!

Now; answer my question: Does any of you have a Girlfriend?
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markjo

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4247 on: November 29, 2015, 07:24:33 PM »
Free expansion says that when the system reaches equilibrium, the total work done is zero.

LULZ!!!
Is a rocket operating in a vacuum in a system in a state of equilibrium?

Now; answer my question: Does any of you have a Girlfriend?
Irrelevant, off topic and none of your damned business.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4248 on: November 29, 2015, 08:03:13 PM »
Is a rocket operating in a vacuum in a system in a state of equilibrium?

Wtf does that even mean?

You've just lost it now that I've shown you to be making shit up as you go along, ain't you?

Now; answer my question: Does any of you have a Girlfriend?
Irrelevant, off topic and none of your damned business.

Not irrelevant, markjo; ye gang know lots about me, yet I know next to nothing about you...

I'm just trying to establish exactly what kind of *ahem!* 'men' I'm dealing with, that's all.

So; answer the question: Do any of you have a Girlfriend?

I do.

See? Wasn't so hard, was it?
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markjo

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4249 on: November 29, 2015, 09:42:55 PM »
Is a rocket operating in a vacuum in a system in a state of equilibrium?

Wtf does that even mean?
Okay, let me rephrase that slightly.

Does a rocket engine operating in a vacuum resemble a system in a state of equilibrium?

So; answer the question: Do any of you have a Girlfriend?
You don't answer most of my on topic questions, so why should I answer any of your off topic questions?

If you want to discuss girlfriends, start a thread in The Lounge.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 10:04:25 PM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4250 on: November 29, 2015, 10:09:19 PM »
Here's what you wrote:

Free expansion says that when the system reaches equilibrium, the total work done is zero.

Yet now you're asking this:

Does a rocket engine operating in a vacuum resemble a system in a state of equilibrium?

Frankly, I have no idea wtf you are on about or where you are going with your nonsense...

Well, except 'yess i cann hazz spayze-shippz!', of course.

So; answer the question: Do any of you have a Girlfriend?
You don't answer most of my on topic questions, so why should I answer any of your off topic questions?

*Yawn!*

I'll take that blather as 'No; I do not have a Girlfriend'.

& add a LOL!!! for good measure.

So that's you out the way; do any of my other space-cultist tormentors have a girlfriend?

Or am I to understand that you are in fact non-people with non-lives, simply spamming me with non-truths in support of fraudulent non-events?

Cos that's how it's looking at the moment...
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markjo

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4251 on: November 29, 2015, 10:41:46 PM »
Here's what you wrote:

Free expansion says that when the system reaches equilibrium, the total work done is zero.

Yet now you're asking this:

Does a rocket engine operating in a vacuum resemble a system in a state of equilibrium?

Frankly, I have no idea wtf you are on about or where you are going with your nonsense...
What part do you not understand?  Do you not understand the concept of equilibrium? 

Better yet, you claim that rockets work using pressure gradients.  Does a pressure gradient sound like a state of equilibrium to you?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4252 on: November 29, 2015, 10:56:57 PM »
Does a pressure gradient sound like a state of equilibrium to you?

LOL!!!

You have completely lost the plot today, haven't you?

Get some sleep.

Better yet, get a girlfriend & sleep with her...

Toodle-pip!
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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4253 on: November 29, 2015, 11:13:48 PM »
Are you old enough for a girlfriend Papa? And no your mum doesn't count.

FYI Getting married next year.

Back on topic. Why do you keep insisting on quoting free expansion when it clearly doesn't apply to a rocket in space?
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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4254 on: November 29, 2015, 11:22:02 PM »
Why do you keep insisting on quoting free expansion when it clearly doesn't apply to a rocket in space?

So; the FACT that a gas expands freely into a vacuum, doing no work on the way, does not have any relevance to how a gas powered rocket would function in a vacuum?

Really?

Could you please tell your chum markjo that?

Cos look what he wrote:

Free expansion says that when the system reaches equilibrium, the total work done is zero.

It may well be the only true thing he's ever written here...

Which is why he's regretting it so badly, I guess!

Btw; saying this:

FYI Getting married next year

Is not the same as saying 'Yes, I have a girlfriend'.

FYI...
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4255 on: November 29, 2015, 11:30:50 PM »
The gas doesn't freely expand into the vacuum though. It has to do work to escape the rocket. Only in the case of an insulated, closed container does the gas do no NET work. This you constantly fail to understand.

And yes I admit you are correct in that I don't have a girlfriend. I have a fiancée.....
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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4256 on: November 29, 2015, 11:48:02 PM »
The gas doesn't freely expand into the vacuum though. It has to do work to escape the rocket.

LOL!!!

Magic 'shpayze-gas' for magic 'shpayze-rokkits'!

Doing Voluntary Work it doesn't need to, just to keep the shpayze-fraud coffers filled...

How charitable of it!

Best one yet, Walter Mitty.

As for the rest of your post; I daren't say what I think, cos you'll just spam the mods with reports to try & get me censored...

But suffice to say that you are fully 'in character' today; good work!

I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4257 on: November 30, 2015, 12:02:22 AM »
The gas doesn't freely expand into the vacuum though. It has to do work to escape the rocket.

LOL!!!

Magic 'shpayze-gas' for magic 'shpayze-rokkits'!

Doing Voluntary Work it doesn't need to, just to keep the shpayze-fraud coffers filled...

How charitable of it!

Best one yet, Walter Mitty.

As for the rest of your post; I daren't say what I think, cos you'll just spam the mods with reports to try & get me censored...

But suffice to say that you are fully 'in character' today; good work!

The gas doesn't choose to do work. It is an inevitable consequence of the gas interacting with the walls of the container, and the fact that there is an exit to the container. The net result is a non-zero amount of work done by the gas.

You were the one who resorted to implying we had no girlfriends and I simply pointed out that in my case you were wrong. No need to get pathetic about it.
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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4258 on: November 30, 2015, 12:07:05 AM »
Read this:

Free expansion says that when the system reaches equilibrium, the total work done is zero.

Then read this:

The net result is a non-zero amount of work done by the gas.

Oh, dear!

Space-cultists at Loggerheads!

What a truly spectacular Fail you have all created today...

The only possible summation of which is: LMFAO - at YOU!!!
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #4259 on: November 30, 2015, 12:16:03 AM »
Cindy..... Keep failing to grasp the simply fact that free expansion is a particular kind of expansion for which u need to have a very specific set of condition:
Vaccum which u have
Close container which u have NOT
insulated container which u have NOT
gasses starting from a state of equilibrium which u have NOT

u CANNOT apply free expansion results to the thermodynamics System that represent the rocket.

Gasses exiting the rocket have do to work since they pass through the nozzle which is specifically design to transform their thermal energy into thrust.

And u Cindy? U seem very angry today... Did your boyfriend just leave? No wonder by the way treat other people