It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship

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BJ1234

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3750 on: November 20, 2015, 06:06:59 AM »
LOL

Poopoo Loser needed to call in his enforcer Schleptimatic to defend him. 

All because they both think that if you use an a-shit-elyne douche that they will be walking around with melted brass on their hands!!!!!

LOL

The great PooPoo Baggins is also upset, about me using his insults.  Thinking that they are so O-Rig-I-Nal. 

Then he goes and cwies wike a bwubbery baby to his wittwe fweind shitimatic.  Wahwahwah!!

LOL

Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3751 on: November 20, 2015, 06:15:47 AM »
De Laval nozzles can only accelerate gases beyond supersonic velocity at the specific back-pressure they are designed for.
No.

Research the subject yourselves, neutrals.
Indeed.

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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3752 on: November 20, 2015, 06:31:39 AM »
LOL!!!

You're all desperate ain't you?

De Laval nozzles, like Newton's 3rd Law, are another bit of bluster that NASA likes to hide behind; like a crooked poker player bluffing behind a bad hand.

The last few posts prove my point nicely.
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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3753 on: November 20, 2015, 06:38:53 AM »
No need to do Math; Yes need to Observe & Experiment.

The substitution of Geometrical Abstractions for Empirical Evidence is how we all got into this sordid sci-fi mess in the first place.

Once a Marine, always a Marine.

You said it.

Thus, as NASA is a Military organisation promoting Military Propaganda, I am quite justified in believing you are here to uphold that Propaganda at all costs.

Anyhow; De Laval nozzles can only accelerate gases beyond supersonic velocity at the specific back-pressure they are designed for.

This has rather grave implications for NASA's 'shpayze-fllyte' claims, do you not think?

LOL!!!

Of COURSE you 'do not think'; that's your purpose here ain't it?

Semper Fi, Sister!

Oh, & Twelve Step's post is b.s; this part is just a massive, desperate lie:

if this is achieved at ground level this is of course also achieved at higher level, against lower ambient pressure (or even vacuum)

LULZ!!!

Research the subject yourselves, neutrals; you'll see I'm correct.

Toodle-pip, Liars & Propagandists!



From Wiki:

Quote
Conditions for operation

A de Laval nozzle will only choke at the throat if the pressure and mass flow through the nozzle is sufficient to reach sonic speeds, otherwise no supersonic flow is achieved, and it will act as a Venturi tube; this requires the entry pressure to the nozzle to be significantly above ambient at all times (equivalently, the stagnation pressure of the jet must be above ambient).

In addition, the pressure of the gas at the exit of the expansion portion of the exhaust of a nozzle must not be too low. Because pressure cannot travel upstream through the supersonic flow, the exit pressure can be significantly below the ambient pressure into which it exhausts, but if it is too far below ambient, then the flow will cease to be supersonic, or the flow will separate within the expansion portion of the nozzle, forming an unstable jet that may "flop" around within the nozzle, producing a lateral thrust and possibly damaging it.

In practice, ambient pressure must be no higher than roughly 23 times the pressure in the supersonic gas at the exit for supersonic flow to leave the nozzle.

So if you actually bother read Papa, the pressure in the De Laval must at least be at minimum operating pressure, not exactly at the operating pressure.
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance or stupidity.

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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3754 on: November 20, 2015, 06:50:05 AM »
Sorry, but I've already told you once today that I am not fluent in Gibberish.

Could you please repeat that in English?
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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3755 on: November 20, 2015, 07:56:20 AM »
De laval nozzles are optimized for a specific altitude... So what?

Sloppy researcher ain't you?

What's your Imaginary Qualification in?

De Laval nozzles will only accelerate gases above mach 1 at the specific back-pressure they are designed for.

See the problem here?

So if they're designed to work best at sea level they will stop accelerating gases above mach 1 within a couple of thousand feet.

By the time they're up to, say, 50,000 feet they'll be practically useless.

And good luck getting to teh munn at subsonic velocity!

Like Twelve Steps said; it's not rocket science...


nope, u got your facts wrong.
 the de laval nozzle will have mach=1 in the throat, so critical conditions, when combustion chamber pressure Pc and exit pressure at the nozzle Pe have a particular ratio.
 considering a mono-dimensional isentropic flow that ratio for sonic flow at the throat of the nozzle is
 Pe/Pc=(1+(gamma-1)/2)^(-(gamma/(gamma-1)))
where gamma is a property of the fluid you're considering, for example ideal gasses have a gamma of 1.4 and a ratio of 0.528.
whenever the ratio Pe/Pc is below the one given by the formula above u have sonic condition at the throat of the nozzle.
(if u're not used to the terminology throat is the section between the convergent and divergent part of the nozzle)

optimizing a nozzle means that at the exit of the nozzle u have the outside pressure, this is optimization cause the thrust is obtained by giving an increment of velocity  to the fluid and if u convert all the pressure and thermal energy in kinetic energy u've optimized the nozzle cause u cannot give the fluid a higher velocity.

if one optimizes a nozzle at sea level u have that the pressure at the exit of the nozzle Pe is equal to the ambient pressure Pa but as u climbing the exit pressure remains the same(cause u're nozzle has been designed to expand up to a certain point) but theambient pressure decreases so u're not using all the energy of the fluid and u're not efficient.


if u on the other end optimize a nozzle for very high altitude and u use it at sea level u have a much worse scenario, cause u're actually over expanding u're flow and it creates a system of shock wave to return to the ambient pressure, and this reduces a lot your trhust.

btw rocket do not accelerate external fluid like jet engines so the thrust is given only by the the flow rate and velocity exiting the nozzle(plus a term dependet on presssure difference between exiting condition and ambient pressure if the nozzle is not optimize) so it really doesn't matter if u have an subsonico o supersonic flow, thrust is always produced, of course since the trhust depend directly on the speed of exiting fluid the higher the better.

morevoer u know speed of sound do depend on temperature right?? the higher the temperature the higher the speed of sound so even a subsonic flow at very high temperature has a speed greater than the speed of sound at ambient temperature.

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markjo

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3756 on: November 20, 2015, 08:11:13 AM »
No need to do Math;
Wrong.  Very, very wrong.

Yes need to Observe & Experiment.
How can you do a proper experiment without math?

Thus, as NASA is a Military organisation promoting Military Propaganda, I am quite justified in believing you are here to uphold that Propaganda at all costs.
No, no and no. 

No, NASA is not a military organization.  It is a civilian government organization that works with the military.

No, NASA is not promoting military propaganda.  It is promoting scientific research.

No, I am not here to uphold anyone's propaganda at any cost.  I'm here because there's nothing like a good argument from time to time.  Sadly, you are nothing like a good argument.

Anyhow; De Laval nozzles can only accelerate gases beyond supersonic velocity at the specific back-pressure they are designed for.
What makes you think that De Laval nozzles can't be optimized to operate at vacuum pressure?  Have you done the math?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3757 on: November 20, 2015, 08:18:35 AM »
nope, u got your facts wrong.

Well, you say that, but then the rest of your tortuously rambling post seems to agree with what I say.

In a sloppily-written, typo-filled manner...

Don't tell me - is English not your first language?

Or are you typing from your phone in a hurry?

Because no Troll has ever claimed THAT before!

Anyway; is your first language in fact Gibberish?

If so, mainframes may need your help as an interpreter...

No, NASA is not a military organization. 

ROFLMFAO!!!

You are beyond any doubt a total shill; now GTFO.

Raown Derf Borg-Clan - ASSEMBLE!!!
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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3758 on: November 20, 2015, 08:28:24 AM »
nope, u got your facts wrong.

Well, you say that, but then the rest of your tortuously rambling post seems to agree with what I say.

In a sloppily-written, typo-filled manner...

Don't tell me - is English not your first language?

Or are you typing from your phone in a hurry?

Because no Troll has ever claimed THAT before!

Anyway; is your first language in fact Gibberish?

If so, mainframes may need your help as an interpreter...

No, NASA is not a military organization. 

ROFLMFAO!!!

You are beyond any doubt a total shill; now GTFO.

Raown Derf Borg-Clan - ASSEMBLE!!!

no, i'm saying the opposite. u're saying that de laval nozzles will not work( don't reach sonic condition of the flow in the throat) when atmospheric pressur decreases, i'm saying that they do work only less efficiently cause they are under expanding the fluid, thus not producing all the trhust they're capable of
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 08:33:53 AM by luckyfred »

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markjo

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3759 on: November 20, 2015, 09:27:14 AM »
no, i'm saying the opposite. u're saying that de laval nozzles will not work( don't reach sonic condition of the flow in the throat) when atmospheric pressur decreases, i'm saying that they do work only less efficiently cause they are under expanding the fluid, thus not producing all the trhust they're capable of
Actually, it's the other way around.  As atmospheric pressure decreases, the exhaust gasses tend to over expand, thereby reducing efficiency.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3760 on: November 20, 2015, 10:16:10 AM »
no, i'm saying the opposite. u're saying that de laval nozzles will not work( don't reach sonic condition of the flow in the throat) when atmospheric pressur decreases, i'm saying that they do work only less efficiently cause they are under expanding the fluid, thus not producing all the trhust they're capable of
Actually, it's the other way around.  As atmospheric pressure decreases, the exhaust gasses tend to over expand, thereby reducing efficiency.


I think there was a misunderstanding, i'm talking about what happens in the nozzle so by saying it under expands I mean that the pressure at the exit of the nozzle is greater than atmospheric pressure so I expands after the nozzle thus wasting those energy which, in an optimize nozzle, should have become kinetic energy of the fluid.

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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3761 on: November 20, 2015, 10:34:03 AM »
You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

Plus, your silly little drawing is kindergarten bullshit.

Like, it doesn't even put numbers on what 'optimal' & 'high' altitude actually are...

I'll give you a clue; neither of them are anywhere close to 'space'.

Idiots.
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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3762 on: November 20, 2015, 10:56:59 AM »
You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

Plus, your silly little drawing is kindergarten bullshit.

Like, it doesn't even put numbers on what 'optimal' & 'high' altitude actually are...

I'll give you a clue; neither of them are anywhere close to 'space'.

Idiots.

That's because it's a generic diagram not specific design you halfwit.
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance or stupidity.

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markjo

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3763 on: November 20, 2015, 11:13:35 AM »
You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

Plus, your silly little drawing is kindergarten bullshit.

Like, it doesn't even put numbers on what 'optimal' & 'high' altitude actually are...

I'll give you a clue; neither of them are anywhere close to 'space'.

Idiots.

No need to do Math;

Which is it?  Do you need to do math or don't you?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3764 on: November 20, 2015, 11:15:55 AM »
That's because it's a generic diagram not specific design you halfwit.

And you couldn't have found a more detailed one?

Suuure you couldn't...

Halfwit.

Atmospheric pressure at 30,000 feet (5 miles) altitude is only a third of that at sea level.

So if you think a De Laval nozzle that is designed to function optimally at sea level will also function at 30,000 feet you are...

What's the word I'm looking for?

A Halfwit.

And remember; after 30,000 feet there's only another 55 miles to go to shpayze!

Halfwits.

Still; you'll ignore the obvious conclusions from this, won't you?

Why?

Cos you're Halfwits.

Now; Carry On Lying!

This is my shitpost Kingdom of Nothing; Everything I say is a lie & I am dead inside.

Don't forget that you are also 100% Shill too!
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3765 on: November 20, 2015, 11:19:07 AM »
You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

Plus, your silly little drawing is kindergarten bullshit.

Like, it doesn't even put numbers on what 'optimal' & 'high' altitude actually are...

I'll give you a clue; neither of them are anywhere close to 'space'.

Idiots.
U want proper graphs and equation?! Go study the link provided by Soulblood. Or it's too complicated for welders?
U might even discover that while climbing a rocket optimized at see leve produces the same thrust, actually even more cause the pressure gradient between the exit of the nozzle and the external condition, multiplied by the nozzle's area, produces a positive contribution to thrust. It becomes less efficient cause that same pressure gradient would have been better used by transforming pressure in kinetic energy of the propulsive fluid

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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3766 on: November 20, 2015, 11:28:20 AM »
Sorry; don't speak Gibberish.

Get a translator, or a brain transplant, or just go away & stop Trolling...

Whatever works.
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3767 on: November 20, 2015, 11:34:39 AM »
Oh, & see what you wrote below?

u're saying that de laval nozzles will not work( don't reach sonic condition of the flow in the throat) when atmospheric pressur decreases

Well, I never said that.

Which makes you a fucking Liar as well as a Gibberish-spamming Troll.

Desperate bunch of Creeps, ain't you?
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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markjo

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3768 on: November 20, 2015, 11:46:18 AM »
That's because it's a generic diagram not specific design you halfwit.

And you couldn't have found a more detailed one?
How's this?  Lots of details in the document, but I like this slide in particular:
De Laval Nozzle Dynamics (Cont.)

To accelerate gasses beyond Mach 1, there there
must be a chocked condition at the throat of the nozzle
  Chocked flow occurs when the exhaust velocity at
     the throat is Mach 1.
  In chocked conditions, a further increase of
     pressure in the combustion chamber will not
     accelerate gasses in throat beyond Mach 1
  Acceleration beyond Mach 1 is caused by a drop in
     ambient pressure, or back pressure

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3769 on: November 20, 2015, 11:54:33 AM »
Learn to spell, shill.

Cos I got no idea what this 'chocked' flow you're on about is.

Why do you think every real rocket launch you see runs out of puff & starts keeling over sideways after only a few thousand feet?

Cos the nozzle's stopped working.

Rockets are dumb & useless.

Like you.
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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3770 on: November 20, 2015, 12:19:48 PM »
You guys give PL too much attention, that's what he wants ... it's impossible to communicate with him, I just post information to let literate people make up their own mind about PL's childish gibberish.

And I just broke my own rule ...

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markjo

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3771 on: November 20, 2015, 12:25:28 PM »
Learn to spell, shill.

Cos I got no idea what this 'chocked' flow you're on about is.
Sorry, but your ignorance is not a valid argument.

Why do you think every real rocket launch you see runs out of puff & starts keeling over sideways after only a few thousand feet?
Because orbit is more about horizontal speed than altitude.

Cos the nozzle's stopped working.
Then how did a Soviet surface to air missile shoot down a high flying U2?  Or was that more just more military propaganda?

Rockets are dumb & useless.
Yeah, I bet that's what your welder "buddies" say about you too.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3772 on: November 20, 2015, 12:31:12 PM »
Grab a beer, gather your welder friends, read this
http://www.ingaero.uniroma1.it/attachments/617_PSP%20Lez.%2007%20SUMMARY%20OF%20ROCKET%20NOZZLE%20RELATIONSHIPS.pdf
And then u can begin to talk about rocket engines

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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3773 on: November 20, 2015, 01:36:34 PM »
Sorry, but your ignorance is not a valid argument.

MY ignorance?

YOU are the one who repeatedly mis-spelt the word 'choked'!

Because deliberately mis-spelling key words & names in order to make them harder to google is Shill Tactics 101.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah & a shitty propaganda link...
And then u can begin to talk about rocket engines

I've talked about little else other than rocket engines throughout this entire thread, retard.

But you already know that, don't you?

Because parachuting a sock ID into a thread & forcing people to go over old ground is also Shill Tactics 101.

Jesus Christ, you are all pathetic.
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3774 on: November 20, 2015, 01:52:36 PM »
it's impossible to communicate with him

You don't 'communicate', Twelve Steps; you Lie.

So, what you're really saying is 'it's impossible to Lie to him'.

Which is why you are all so frustrated with me, ain't it, Liars?
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sokarul

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3775 on: November 20, 2015, 01:53:25 PM »
Sorry, but your ignorance is not a valid argument.

MY ignorance?

YOU are the one who repeatedly mis-spelt the word 'choked'!

Because deliberately mis-spelling key words & names in order to make them harder to google is Shill Tactics 101.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah & a shitty propaganda link...
And then u can begin to talk about rocket engines

I've talked about little else other than rocket engines throughout this entire thread, retard.

But you already know that, don't you?

Because parachuting a sock ID into a thread & forcing people to go over old ground is also Shill Tactics 101.

Jesus Christ, you are all pathetic.
lol


u mad?

lol



ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3776 on: November 20, 2015, 01:56:57 PM »
Sorry, but your ignorance is not a valid argument.

MY ignorance?

YOU are the one who repeatedly mis-spelt the word 'choked'!

Because deliberately mis-spelling key words & names in order to make them harder to google is Shill Tactics 101.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah & a shitty propaganda link...
And then u can begin to talk about rocket engines

I've talked about little else other than rocket engines throughout this entire thread, retard.

But you already know that, don't you?

Because parachuting a sock ID into a thread & forcing people to go over old ground is also Shill Tactics 101.

Jesus Christ, you are all pathetic.

I saw this thread and I read u're post about rocket engines. Since I know a couple of things about rocket engines I've simply pointed out u're mistakes.

Also avoiding taking in consideration link that will prove u wrong and start just accusing is quite a simple trick.

It's not a propaganda link, it's part of the course material used by aerospace engineering students at university of Rome, don't just shit over things u cannot understand

Lastly I'm pretty sick of your insults, I've never attacked u or insulted.it's not gonna work if u try to bully people into believe u're nonsense claims

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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3777 on: November 20, 2015, 02:00:19 PM »
u mad?

Incorrect.

Since I know a couple of things about rocket engines

Incorrect.
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3778 on: November 20, 2015, 02:39:53 PM »
Oh look, as a matter of fact i studied on the slides provided in the previous link for my Course of propulsion.... What a shame u bounced into someone who actually have studied the things u're talking about.... Maybe  u'd better talk about welding and carpentry

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markjo

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #3779 on: November 20, 2015, 04:10:17 PM »
Sorry, but your ignorance is not a valid argument.

MY ignorance?
Ignorance, laziness, deliberate misrepresentation.  Take your pick.

YOU are the one who repeatedly mis-spelt the word 'choked'!
If you had actually followed the link provided in the quote, you would have noticed that I copied and pasted one of the slides (slide number 6, to be exact).  If any words in that quote were misspelled, it was from the original presentation.  Or do you not understand the concept of a quote?

Because deliberately mis-spelling key words & names in order to make them harder to google is Shill Tactics 101.
Harping on spelling errors is a lot easier than actually refuting the content, isn't it?

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah & a shitty propaganda link...
And then u can begin to talk about rocket engines

I've talked about little else other than rocket engines throughout this entire thread, retard.
And you've been wrong about rocket engines throughout the entire thread.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.