It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship

Quote from: Rayzor on June 16, 2015, 01:50:43 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on June 16, 2015, 01:31:43 AM

Do you know why they build pressure chambers with domed heads and bases? Now when I say pressure chambers, I mean chambers that can hold internal pressure or resist external pressure.

Yes.

Then you'll understand why Adam Savage's silly rigged up supposed vacuum chamber is anything but what we are led to believe.

How hard did he pull the vac down?   Or weren't you paying attention.

Yet again, my very simple question is: does the exhaust of a rocket produce thrust after it has passed the rim of the nozzle?

Yes or No?

Please educate me on this subject.

I think that the mass and velocity (or change of velocity) of the exhaust of a rocket produces a thrust that affects the rocket itself regardless where it takes place - in your backgarden or vacuum space.

Interesting! Thank you, Heiwa.

So; thus far we have: Heiwa - Yes.
                                   Rayzor - No.
                                   markjo - Kinda Yes & No.
                                   Mikeman - Refuses to answer.

Hmm... seems this rocketry business isn't as straightforward as you'd all have me believe...

But that's okay, cos you all agree that rockets will work perfectly well in vacuum conditions, even though you cannot agree on even the simplest aspects of their functioning!

Anyone else want to try answering the question: Does the exhaust of a rocket produce thrust after it has passed the rim of the nozzle?

Btw, Heiwa; the VELOCITY aspect of your explanation is duly noted. I will return to it later, after I have explored all the possibilities raised by my current question.

Quote from: sceptimatic on June 16, 2015, 02:50:20 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on June 16, 2015, 01:50:43 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on June 16, 2015, 01:31:43 AM

Do you know why they build pressure chambers with domed heads and bases? Now when I say pressure chambers, I mean chambers that can hold internal pressure or resist external pressure.

Yes.

Then you'll understand why Adam Savage's silly rigged up supposed vacuum chamber is anything but what we are led to believe.

How hard did he pull the vac down?   Or weren't you paying attention.

Which is why you can't comprehend stuff. If he didn't make a vacuum, or close to one, then his experiment is bullshit. Can't you get this into your head or are you just happy to play ignorant?

Quote from: Rayzor on June 16, 2015, 03:07:02 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on June 16, 2015, 02:50:20 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on June 16, 2015, 01:50:43 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on June 16, 2015, 01:31:43 AM

Do you know why they build pressure chambers with domed heads and bases? Now when I say pressure chambers, I mean chambers that can hold internal pressure or resist external pressure.

Yes.

Then you'll understand why Adam Savage's silly rigged up supposed vacuum chamber is anything but what we are led to believe.

How hard did he pull the vac down?   Or weren't you paying attention.

Which is why you can't comprehend stuff. If he didn't make a vacuum, or close to one, then his experiment is bullshit. Can't you get this into your head or are you just happy to play ignorant?

Seriously,  is that the best you've got?     Just call it bullshit,  and not offer any reason why, then follow it up with a clear demonstration that you've never built or used any vacuum equipment.   I was hoping for something a bit better than that,  you'll be wallowing in the gutter with Papa Legba and Legion before too long.

Quote from: sceptimatic on June 16, 2015, 05:27:39 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on June 16, 2015, 03:07:02 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on June 16, 2015, 02:50:20 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on June 16, 2015, 01:50:43 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on June 16, 2015, 01:31:43 AM

Do you know why they build pressure chambers with domed heads and bases? Now when I say pressure chambers, I mean chambers that can hold internal pressure or resist external pressure.

Yes.

Then you'll understand why Adam Savage's silly rigged up supposed vacuum chamber is anything but what we are led to believe.

How hard did he pull the vac down?   Or weren't you paying attention.

Which is why you can't comprehend stuff. If he didn't make a vacuum, or close to one, then his experiment is bullshit. Can't you get this into your head or are you just happy to play ignorant?

Seriously,  is that the best you've got?     Just call it bullshit,  and not offer any reason why, then follow it up with a clear demonstration that you've never built or used any vacuum equipment.   I was hoping for something a bit better than that,  you'll be wallowing in the gutter with Papa Legba and Legion before too long.

I think we're about done. You clearly have nothing left to say and clearly cannot comprehend reality. Go and play with your little globalite dummies.

Quote from: Rayzor on June 16, 2015, 05:56:29 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on June 16, 2015, 05:27:39 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on June 16, 2015, 03:07:02 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on June 16, 2015, 02:50:20 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on June 16, 2015, 01:50:43 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on June 16, 2015, 01:31:43 AM

Do you know why they build pressure chambers with domed heads and bases? Now when I say pressure chambers, I mean chambers that can hold internal pressure or resist external pressure.

Yes.

Then you'll understand why Adam Savage's silly rigged up supposed vacuum chamber is anything but what we are led to believe.

How hard did he pull the vac down?   Or weren't you paying attention.

Which is why you can't comprehend stuff. If he didn't make a vacuum, or close to one, then his experiment is bullshit. Can't you get this into your head or are you just happy to play ignorant?

Seriously,  is that the best you've got?     Just call it bullshit,  and not offer any reason why, then follow it up with a clear demonstration that you've never built or used any vacuum equipment.   I was hoping for something a bit better than that,  you'll be wallowing in the gutter with Papa Legba and Legion before too long.

I think we're about done. You clearly have nothing left to say and clearly cannot comprehend reality. Go and play with your little globalite dummies.

Good, it's about time you just admitted that rockets work in vacuum,  and give up this looney conspiracy crap.  Join the human race for a change.

Papa Legba, rockets work by pushing on the gas they eject and in turn the gas pushes back because the rocket has high pressure behind it and less pressure or no pressure in front of it.

No they don't. Rockets work by the principle of conservation of momentum.
velocity of exhaust gases multiplied by mass of exhaust gases = mass of rocket multiplied by velocity of rocket. In order for the total momentum of the system to remain unchanged (conserved) the velocity of the rocket is in the opposite direction to the velocity of the gases.

Quote from: sceptimatic on June 16, 2015, 06:02:19 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on June 16, 2015, 05:56:29 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on June 16, 2015, 05:27:39 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on June 16, 2015, 03:07:02 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on June 16, 2015, 02:50:20 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on June 16, 2015, 01:50:43 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on June 16, 2015, 01:31:43 AM

Do you know why they build pressure chambers with domed heads and bases? Now when I say pressure chambers, I mean chambers that can hold internal pressure or resist external pressure.

Yes.

Then you'll understand why Adam Savage's silly rigged up supposed vacuum chamber is anything but what we are led to believe.

How hard did he pull the vac down?   Or weren't you paying attention.

Which is why you can't comprehend stuff. If he didn't make a vacuum, or close to one, then his experiment is bullshit. Can't you get this into your head or are you just happy to play ignorant?

Seriously,  is that the best you've got?     Just call it bullshit,  and not offer any reason why, then follow it up with a clear demonstration that you've never built or used any vacuum equipment.   I was hoping for something a bit better than that,  you'll be wallowing in the gutter with Papa Legba and Legion before too long.

I think we're about done. You clearly have nothing left to say and clearly cannot comprehend reality. Go and play with your little globalite dummies.

Good, it's about time you just admitted that rockets work in vacuum,  and give up this looney conspiracy crap.  Join the human race for a change.

Why is it so hard for people to admit thrust exists? Like, maybe if thrust exists, the Earth MIGHT be round. SO SCARYYYY.

Anyone else want to try answering the question: Does the exhaust of a rocket produce thrust after it has passed the rim of the nozzle?

No.  Once the exhaust gasses have passed the rim of the nozzle, those gasses have no way of interacting with the rocket.  Only when the gasses are within the combustion chamber or nozzle can those gasses interact with the rocket.  Once they leave the nozzle, those gasses may be able to interact with other things within its environment, but the rocket itself is no longer part of that environment.

Thank you markjo.

So:  markjo - No.
        Rayzor - No.
        Heiwa -  Yes.
        Mikeman - Refused to answer.
        mathsman - Also did not answer.

Though mathsman did say something interesting, i.e: 'the velocity of the rocket is in the opposite direction to the velocity of the gases'.

Thank you mathsman; duly noted for future reference.

Now; anyone else care to answer: does the exhaust of a rocket produce thrust after it has passed the rim of the nozzle?

Oh, & bill_the_pretender: calm down. No-one is saying thrust does not exist; we are merely attempting to discover where & how thrust is produced in a rocket.

If you have an answer to my above question, then provide it; if not, then please read the thread & catch up with everyone else.

Thank you.

Thank you markjo.

So:  markjo - No.
        Rayzor - No.
        Heiwa -  Yes.
        Mikeman - Refused to answer.
        mathsman - Also did not answer.

Though mathsman did say something interesting, i.e: 'the velocity of the rocket is in the opposite direction to the velocity of the gases'.

Thank you mathsman; duly noted for future reference.

Now; anyone else care to answer: does the exhaust of a rocket produce thrust after it has passed the rim of the nozzle?

Oh, & bill_the_pretender: calm down. No-one is saying thrust does not exist; we are merely attempting to discover where & how thrust is produced in a rocket.

If you have an answer to my above question, then provide it; if not, then please read the thread & catch up with everyone else.

Thank you.

Your questions have been answered. My understanding of physics is limited, my expertise lie in biology and phylogeny. My understanding of thrust is that it propels the object at the point of inertia, which would be where it exists the rocket, not any time after that. Am I incorrect? This would NOT prevent a rocket from working in a vaccuum (space). This is why we actually made it to Mars, and the Moon.

In case you haven't noticed, bill, my question has been receiving several different answers.

Do you not consider this at all odd?

In any case, I believe you are also a 'No'.

So: markjo, rayzor, bill - No.
       Heiwa - Yes.
       mikeman & mathsman - did not answer.

That's 3 'no', 1 'yes' & 2 rather curious abstentions. Seems the 'nos' will have it; but I'd prefer a wider sample before going further.

So; anyone else care to answer: does the exhaust of a rocket produce thrust after passing the rim of the nozzle?

Quote from: Rayzor on June 15, 2015, 09:46:00 PM

Here you go Papa Legless,   http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/videos/its-rocket-science/

If you seriously believe they can make a vacuum chamber out of plastic sheeting made into a rectangular box, then you are extremely naive.
Those mythbusters have to sleep at night after performing this crap but the high pay and the fact that they can hide behind the old "fun experiments" ruse with the added extra of being able to hide behind a flawed experiment if the situation arose, as they have done before, except it won't happen on stuff like this because it can't be shown to be flawed.

This is why I never watch mythbusters as a show, unless I need to watch for the duping of the world.
If anyone saw the video of the train container being evacuated of internal pressure, you'd know 100% that this mythbusters rectangular box is a con job.

This comment reminds me - how's that scale model of the Ice Dome coming along? In case you've forgotten what you wrote last October, the plan was to have inner and outer 12-foot-diameter domes of plexiglass and fiberglass, respectively, with a vacuum between them.

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on October 07, 2014, 03:39:29 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 07, 2014, 02:10:46 AM

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on October 07, 2014, 01:44:21 AM

Have you managed that diagram of how sunsets occur under your ice dome yet?

Yep. I'm also 70% into building of a dome with all the necessary stuff built into it, including small camera's set up inside of it. It's looking extremely promising.

All my drawings and pictures are done.

I look forward to seeing them.  Of course I won't be too disappointed if it turns out you are talking out of your arse again, and you haven't actually got any diagrams....

I actually class you as having a lot more logical savvy than you make out as regards alternative thinking. You arre scared to show it because the masses are ruling your thoughts, basically.
One day when you start to use a more out of the box thought to things, you may...I say, "may" get the opportunity to see things differently through my experiments and model, plus drawings.

Just to give you the scale of my model. It's 12 feet in diameter, set in the grounds of my home. The dome is double skinned with the inner being a clear perspex mould and the outer being a fibre glass matt black coated dome with a 3 inch gap between. Like a flask, which in time will be evacuated to closely match what space would be to people's minds.
Inside looks like a sort of mini Earth, or will do when it's fully set up, complete with mini oceans and greenery, etc.
22 mini camera's will be set up around the surface.

There a massive amount more I could say but it would take pages and pages. It's looking exciting and I wouldn't have spent the money on it if I didn't believe in it.

It's been more than eight months since you said you were 70% done. I don't recall any mention of this project since that thread's time. Have you tried pulling the vacuum yet? If you recall, I politely recommended not doing that, but you declined the recommendation.

How's that going?

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on October 08, 2014, 01:00:48 AM

Quote

I await your results.

I wouldn't hold your breath....

When you see the final results you will slap yourself for believing in a silly globe model, I assure you of that.

I still await your results.

Hello alpha2omega; that was all a bit off-topic, but still, while you're here, could you tell me if you think a rocket exhaust will produce thrust after it has passed the rim of the nozzle?

I'm doing a survey, sorta thing... Cheers!

No it wont.

Thrust is exerted on the rocket by the pressure of the exhaust gases still within the nozzle. Exhuast gas that leaves the nozzle will not exert any pressure on the rocket at all.

Excellent, mainframes; thank you for that comprehensive reply!

Four-to-one now; seems the 'nos' are definitely winning...

Anyone else want to answer: does the exhaust of a rocket produce thrust after passing the rim of the nozzle?

Say that your Spaceship is doing 10 000 m/s and you want to increase it to 20 000 m/s by firing your rocket engine for say 1 000 s (and that it actually works in e.g. vacuum space).
Say that your average Spaceship speed is 15 000 m/s during those 1 000 seconds; then you travel 15 000 000 m, while firing the rocket engine. The exhaust gas cloud that you produce will thus be at least 15 000 000 m long = plenty of pollution. Maybe the Sun will break it down into something later.
That exhaust pollution cloud has its own velocity but it will be "attached" to the Spaceship until you stop polluting = firing the rocket engine.
So when you are polluting away, your Spaceship and your spaceshit (the pollution) form one spaceshipshit unit in space, which is not vacuum any longer. It is mostly shit!

Indeed, Heiwa; it IS 'mostly shit!'.

But enough of your 1950's pulp sci-fi copy-&-paste; nostalgia-inducing as it was, I already have your answer, & it was 'yes'.

Anyone else care to respond: does the exhaust of a rocket produce thrust after it has passed the rim of the nozzle?

There is a point to this question btw; I just need more data before I get to it.

That exhaust pollution cloud has its own velocity but it will be "attached" to the Spaceship until you stop polluting = firing the rocket engine.

How can exhaust gasses (or any gasses, for that matter) "attach" themselves to anything?  Do you even understand the physical properties of gasses?  Do you understand the difference between attaching to something and pushing something?

Quote from: Heiwa on June 16, 2015, 09:15:47 AM

That exhaust pollution cloud has its own velocity but it will be "attached" to the Spaceship until you stop polluting = firing the rocket engine.

How can exhaust gasses (or any gasses, for that matter) "attach" themselves to anything?  Do you even understand the physical properties of gasses?  Do you understand the difference between attaching to something and pushing something?

Use your imagination. If the Spaceship is say 15 m long and it produces a 15 000 000 m long trail of an exhaust gas cloud in space while speeding up, you will hardly see the little Spaceship producing (sh)it.  But it is there - at the forward end of the trail/cloud and joined to (sh)it.

Well; I'll leave you two to your little debate - which could be titled '1950's sci-fi paradigm vs. 1980's sci-fi paradigm' - & return when you're done.

Unless anyone else cares to throw their hat in the ring re: does the exhaust of a rocket produce thrust after it has passed the rim of the nozzle?

The vote currently stands at: 4 'no'; 1 'yes'; 2 inexplicable abstentions...

It's an important question if we're going to arrive at the truth of the matter; so get thinking & let us know!

Well; I'll leave you two to your little debate - which could be titled '1950's sci-fi paradigm vs. 1980's sci-fi paradigm' - & return when you're done.

Unless anyone else cares to throw their hat in the ring re: does the exhaust of a rocket produce thrust after it has passed the rim of the nozzle?

The vote currently stands at: 4 'no'; 1 'yes'; 2 inexplicable abstentions...

It's an important question if we're going to arrive at the truth of the matter; so get thinking & let us know!

No. 

Quote from: markjo on June 16, 2015, 10:19:15 AM

Quote from: Heiwa on June 16, 2015, 09:15:47 AM

That exhaust pollution cloud has its own velocity but it will be "attached" to the Spaceship until you stop polluting = firing the rocket engine.

How can exhaust gasses (or any gasses, for that matter) "attach" themselves to anything?  Do you even understand the physical properties of gasses?  Do you understand the difference between attaching to something and pushing something?

Use your imagination. If the Spaceship is say 15 m long and it produces a 15 000 000 m long trail of an exhaust gas cloud in space while speeding up, you will hardly see the little Spaceship producing (sh)it.  But it is there - at the forward end of the trail/cloud and joined to (sh)it.

What does the length of the exhaust trail have to do with anything? 

To up the vote count, I will say "no".

The reason is based on the word "produce" in the question.  After the exhaust has passed the rim of the nozzle, I submit that any further thrust would have to be "re-produced" by some other force that would then also produce more exhaust in the process.

Yes, but only gravity due its their mass, and that's negligible for all intents and purposes. So, for the topic under discussion, no, the gas exerts no meaningful force on the rocket once it has passed the nozzle. How could it?

Thank you, Mikeman, though I have to disagree that a rocket would have high pressure behind it in a hard vacuum of near-infinite extent.

Free Expansion, you know?

Still, you're getting the idea.

But enough of that; please answer my simple question: does the exhaust of a rocket produce thrust after it has passed the rim of the nozzle?

Rayzor has already voted 'no', so his further input is not required for now.

Markjo voted kinda yes & kinda no (lol!).

What do the rest of you say?

Let's get some consensus here.

Sorry I didn't answer before, but I have been moving into a new house and I havn't had a lot of spare time.

The answer to your question is no.  The thrust is produced when the molecule of gas interacts with the rocket for the last time.

Sorry I didn't answer before, but I have been moving into a new house and I havn't had a lot of spare time.

Except to write about 18 nonsensical posts/day at the FES forum.

Quote from: mikeman7918 on June 16, 2015, 05:33:10 PM

Sorry I didn't answer before, but I have been moving into a new house and I havn't had a lot of spare time.

Except to write about 18 nonsensical posts/day at the FES forum.

You must be thinking of any Flat Earther, EVER. Sorry, Mike's pretty honest.

So; seems the 'nos' have it & the exhaust of a rocket produces no thrust after it has passed the rim of the nozzle.

In which case, let us now turn to the V2 rocket; www.v2rocket.com has all the technical details we require.

Note that the combustion chamber & nozzle are fixed & immobile.

Then note the 4 carbon graphite exhaust rudders placed outside the rim of the nozzle.

The purpose of these rudders is THRUST VECTORING (definition of vectoring: 'directing to a desired point') in order to steer the rocket, by directing the exhaust gases.

Even wikipedia agrees on this.

But, according to the model of all those who answered 'no', this is clearly impossible as you all agree that the exhaust of a rocket produces no thrust after it has passed the rim of the nozzle.

So; logically, as there would be no THRUST to VECTOR, either the steering system of the V2 did not & could not work as claimed, or you are wrong.

Which one is it?