lunar eclipse, round earth explanation

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JRoweSkeptic

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lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« on: April 04, 2015, 02:23:12 PM »
a lunar eclpse. the explanation is:



the result is:



does this make any sense? somehow the moon stops reflecting light, and yet not only is it still lit, but it changes color. i can't believe people honestly believe this. it seems very curious, also, that the two colors of the moon are red and white: the colors of heated metal.

does any round earther have any explanation for:

  • how a moon that gives off no light of its own is still visible all over when the sun's light is blocked by the earth
  • how a moon that is grey or white and reflects white light turns bright red

i will be holding your answers to the same standard that you hold flat earth answers, so please directly quote scientists who agree with your position, and give evidence and equations and math that supports your position. it's only fair you do what you ask of us.
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LogicalKiller

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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2015, 02:49:57 PM »
a lunar eclpse. the explanation is:



the result is:



does this make any sense? somehow the moon stops reflecting light, and yet not only is it still lit, but it changes color. i can't believe people honestly believe this. it seems very curious, also, that the two colors of the moon are red and white: the colors of heated metal.

does any round earther have any explanation for:

  • how a moon that gives off no light of its own is still visible all over when the sun's light is blocked by the earth
  • how a moon that is grey or white and reflects white light turns bright red

i will be holding your answers to the same standard that you hold flat earth answers, so please directly quote scientists who agree with your position, and give evidence and equations and math that supports your position. it's only fair you do what you ask of us.

Sun's light goes through thicker parts of atmosphere and air and so our atmosphere and air scatters light to red color, which then hits the Moon.
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Misero

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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2015, 02:56:32 PM »
a lunar eclpse. the explanation is:



the result is:



does this make any sense? somehow the moon stops reflecting light, and yet not only is it still lit, but it changes color. i can't believe people honestly believe this. it seems very curious, also, that the two colors of the moon are red and white: the colors of heated metal.

does any round earther have any explanation for:

  • how a moon that gives off no light of its own is still visible all over when the sun's light is blocked by the earth
  • how a moon that is grey or white and reflects white light turns bright red

i will be holding your answers to the same standard that you hold flat earth answers, so please directly quote scientists who agree with your position, and give evidence and equations and math that supports your position. it's only fair you do what you ask of us.

Sun's light goes through thicker parts of atmosphere and air and so our atmosphere and air scatters light to red color, which then hits the Moon.
And don't deny it, there's rainbows for pretty much this reason.
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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2015, 03:28:17 PM »
a lunar eclpse. the explanation is:

<nice diagram showing geometry of lunar eclipse> http://thelucidplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Lunar-Eclipse-Geometry.png

the result is:

<nice picture of reddish totally-eclipsed moon> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Lunar_eclipse_April_15_2014_California_Alfredo_Garcia_Jr1.jpg

does this make any sense?
Yes.

Quote
somehow the moon stops reflecting light[citation needed], and yet not only is it still lit, but it changes color.
The small amount of light that makes it to the Moon during a total eclipse has changed color, the Moon itself hasn't. The Moon is being dimly illuminated by every sunrise and sunset on earth at the same time instead of directly by white sunlight. Go outside and watch a sunset sometime. Report back when you see what color the Sun appears as it sets.

Quote
i can't believe people honestly believe this.
OK. So what? What you claim to believe and not believe is pretty detached from reality, so this hardly seems surprising, but thanks for sharing, anyway.

Quote
it seems very curious, also, that the two colors of the moon are red and white: the colors of heated metal.
What about orange and yellow? Don't metals pass through those colors when going from red hot to white hot? Parts of the Moon are also gray. In what way is any of this curious?

Quote
does any round earther have any explanation for:

  • how a moon that gives off no light of its own is still visible all over when the sun's light is blocked by the earth
  • how a moon that is grey or white and reflects white light turns bright red
See the above for both.

Quote
i will be holding your answers to the same standard that you hold flat earth answers, so please directly quote scientists who agree with your position, and give evidence and equations and math that supports your position. it's only fair you do what you ask of us.
Easy enough. There's a ton of information out there. How's this for a start (citations instead of quotes; they're long and this saves space):

Fred Espenak and Jean Meeus, VISUAL APPEARANCE OF LUNAR ECLIPSES, (GSFC Solar System Exploration Division), http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/LEcat5/appearance.html.

Jean Meeus, "Atmospheric Refraction" in Astronomical Algorithms, 2nd ed., (Richmond, VA: Willman-Bell, 1998), 105-108.
 
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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2015, 05:23:58 AM »
thank you to alpha2omega for being the only one to apparently read the post.

misero seems to be under the impression that the moon should appear as a rainbow. is ay explanation for why it does not forthcoming?

now it's being said the moon isn't changing color, light is. not only that, but it's a result of the light just skimming past the edges of the earth. so, during a solar eclipse, why doesn't the earth end up red then?
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BJ1234

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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2015, 05:52:05 AM »
Because the moon has no atmosphere to cause the light to behave in such a way.

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LogicalKiller

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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2015, 06:25:57 AM »
thank you to alpha2omega for being the only one to apparently read the post.

misero seems to be under the impression that the moon should appear as a rainbow. is ay explanation for why it does not forthcoming?

now it's being said the moon isn't changing color, light is. not only that, but it's a result of the light just skimming past the edges of the earth. so, during a solar eclipse, why doesn't the earth end up red then?

Because the Moon seems red because of Earth's atmosphere. Earth would be red if there were a planet in front of us with atmosphere.
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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2015, 09:27:46 AM »
Because the moon has no atmosphere to cause the light to behave in such a way.

well neither does the earth, but still, i'll accept your model here. so, the sun's light goes red when it travels through the earth's atmosphere? that is evidently untrue, just look out your window.
or, if the angle is somehow special, why does the majority of the moon often go red, rather than just the edges? and why is there no rainbow, as misero implied there should be?
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LogicalKiller

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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2015, 09:47:51 AM »
Because the moon has no atmosphere to cause the light to behave in such a way.

well neither does the earth, but still, i'll accept your model here. so, the sun's light goes red when it travels through the earth's atmosphere? that is evidently untrue, just look out your window.
or, if the angle is somehow special, why does the majority of the moon often go red, rather than just the edges? and why is there no rainbow, as misero implied there should be?

Well, that's just a proof for atmosphere you dumbass, so don't say there is no atmosphere you prick.
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mrparty

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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2015, 11:10:37 AM »
Well, there is still some light passing through the atmosphere of the earth, so it dimly lights the moon to be dark reddish in color. Has nothing to do with heated metal.

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2015, 11:11:42 AM »
Well, there is still some light passing through the atmosphere of the earth, so it dimly lights the moon to be dark reddish in color. Has nothing to do with heated metal.

do you feel like actually responding to the points i've made rather than repeating the same, obviously untrue explanation?
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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2015, 11:12:36 AM »
Because the moon has no atmosphere to cause the light to behave in such a way.
so, the sun's light goes red when it travels through the earth's atmosphere? that is evidently untrue, just look out your window.
or, if the angle is somehow special, why does the majority of the moon often go red, rather than just the edges? and why is there no rainbow, as misero implied there should be?
I watched a glorious red sunset through my window the other day. So the Sun's light does indeed "go red" when it travels through enough atmosphere. If you've never seen a sunset or sunrise I highly recommend you take the time to do so. Venture outside if you can't see a sunset or sunrise through your window, but be advised that you might have to travel away from the immediate vicinity of your home if there is not a clear view to the horizon from there. If you've never experienced one of these in person, it would explain a lot about your understanding of nature. Does looking at the outside world through windows instead of actually going outside somehow validate flat-earth beliefs? Maybe staying inside limits your view to the point that some of this can sound like it may be plausible. Instead of confining yourself to what you can see out your window, explore! There are many things you miss by staying indoors, even if you do have a window.

In general, the edges of the Earth's umbra are brighter and somewhat "whiter" than the center of the umbra, but inhomogeneities in dust and clouds in the atmosphere cause variations in the brightness and color within the umbra. [Espenak and Meeus]. Since an exoatmospheric object that appears on the horizon from sea level is actually a little more than 1/2° below it[nb]
Jean Meeus, Formula 16.3 in Astronomical Algorithms, 2nd ed., (Richmond, VA: Willman-Bell, 1998), 106.
 [/nb], the total refraction for sunlight after entering and exiting is twice that, or slightly more than 1°. The apparent diameter of the Earth from the distance of the Moon is just under 2°, so there is sufficient refraction in the lower part of the atmosphere to refract sunlight into the center of the umbra at the distance to the Moon.

Misero is mistaken in his comment about rainbows; rainbows are a different phenomenon. They're due to refraction and internal reflection of light within nearly spherical water droplets in the atmosphere, not the Rayleigh scattering and absorption of shorter wavelengths of light that make sunsets (and lunar eclipses) red. Rainbows appear in the opposite direction as the source of light causing them; since earth is in the same direction as the Sun during a lunar eclipse, this isn't a factor.
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mrparty

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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2015, 11:21:35 AM »
Well, there is still some light passing through the atmosphere of the earth, so it dimly lights the moon to be dark reddish in color. Has nothing to do with heated metal.

do you feel like actually responding to the points i've made rather than repeating the same, obviously untrue explanation?

But that is the true explination. It has nothing to do with metal in the moon, or aether. Just how the sun's light behaves when it goes through the atmosphere.

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2015, 11:31:15 AM »
Well, there is still some light passing through the atmosphere of the earth, so it dimly lights the moon to be dark reddish in color. Has nothing to do with heated metal.

do you feel like actually responding to the points i've made rather than repeating the same, obviously untrue explanation?

But that is the true explination. It has nothing to do with metal in the moon, or aether. Just how the sun's light behaves when it goes through the atmosphere.

except it is obviously false. i have refuted it, which is why i asked you to respond to my points rather than blithely asserting.
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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2015, 11:35:05 AM »
Because the moon has no atmosphere to cause the light to behave in such a way.
so, the sun's light goes red when it travels through the earth's atmosphere? that is evidently untrue, just look out your window.
or, if the angle is somehow special, why does the majority of the moon often go red, rather than just the edges? and why is there no rainbow, as misero implied there should be?
I watched a glorious red sunset through my window the other day. So the Sun's light does indeed "go red" when it travels through enough atmosphere. If you've never seen a sunset or sunrise I highly recommend you take the time to do so. Venture outside if you can't see a sunset or sunrise through your window, but be advised that you might have to travel away from the immediate vicinity of your home if there is not a clear view to the horizon from there. If you've never experienced one of these in person, it would explain a lot about your understanding of nature. Does looking at the outside world through windows instead of actually going outside somehow validate flat-earth beliefs? Maybe staying inside limits your view to the point that some of this can sound like it may be plausible. Instead of confining yourself to what you can see out your window, explore! There are many things you miss by staying indoors, even if you do have a window.

In general, the edges of the Earth's umbra are brighter and somewhat "whiter" than the center of the umbra, but inhomogeneities in dust and clouds in the atmosphere cause variations in the brightness and color within the umbra. [Espenak and Meeus]. Since an exoatmospheric object that appears on the horizon from sea level is actually a little more than 1/2° below it[nb]
Jean Meeus, Formula 16.3 in Astronomical Algorithms, 2nd ed., (Richmond, VA: Willman-Bell, 1998), 106.
 [/nb], the total refraction for sunlight after entering and exiting is twice that, or slightly more than 1°. The apparent diameter of the Earth from the distance of the Moon is just under 2°, so there is sufficient refraction in the lower part of the atmosphere to refract sunlight into the center of the umbra at the distance to the Moon.

Misero is mistaken in his comment about rainbows; rainbows are a different phenomenon. They're due to refraction and internal reflection of light within nearly spherical water droplets in the atmosphere, not the Rayleigh scattering and absorption of shorter wavelengths of light that make sunsets (and lunar eclipses) red. Rainbows appear in the opposite direction as the source of light causing them; since earth is in the same direction as the Sun during a lunar eclipse, this isn't a factor.

aside from how sunsets are not always red, that does not explain how more than just the very edges of the moon are red, if the moon is illuminated by the sight skimming past the sides of the earth: all the more so if the moon is indeed much smaller than the earth, the light should not reach it.
and a rainbow should be form, if light is being split. if light is not being split, it should not magically end up red of all colors.
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The Ellimist

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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2015, 11:40:03 AM »
Because the moon has no atmosphere to cause the light to behave in such a way.

well neither does the earth, but still, i'll accept your model here. so, the sun's light goes red when it travels through the earth's atmosphere? that is evidently untrue, just look out your window.
or, if the angle is somehow special, why does the majority of the moon often go red, rather than just the edges? and why is there no rainbow, as misero implied there should be?

What Misero said is that the same principle that causes rainbows to be formed is the same principle that causes red light to hit the moon.

so, the sun's light goes red when it travels through the earth's atmosphere? that is evidently untrue, just look out your window.

Looking out my window at the sunset, and I see red/orange. So I guess it is true.

or, if the angle is somehow special, why does the majority of the moon often go red, rather than just the edges?

Refraction.
Additionally, we cannot entirely rule out the nefarious effects of demons, spirits, gnomes, and wizards on our society's ability to comprehend our flat earth as it really is. 

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The Ellimist

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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2015, 11:48:22 AM »
Because the moon has no atmosphere to cause the light to behave in such a way.
so, the sun's light goes red when it travels through the earth's atmosphere? that is evidently untrue, just look out your window.
or, if the angle is somehow special, why does the majority of the moon often go red, rather than just the edges? and why is there no rainbow, as misero implied there should be?
I watched a glorious red sunset through my window the other day. So the Sun's light does indeed "go red" when it travels through enough atmosphere. If you've never seen a sunset or sunrise I highly recommend you take the time to do so. Venture outside if you can't see a sunset or sunrise through your window, but be advised that you might have to travel away from the immediate vicinity of your home if there is not a clear view to the horizon from there. If you've never experienced one of these in person, it would explain a lot about your understanding of nature. Does looking at the outside world through windows instead of actually going outside somehow validate flat-earth beliefs? Maybe staying inside limits your view to the point that some of this can sound like it may be plausible. Instead of confining yourself to what you can see out your window, explore! There are many things you miss by staying indoors, even if you do have a window.

In general, the edges of the Earth's umbra are brighter and somewhat "whiter" than the center of the umbra, but inhomogeneities in dust and clouds in the atmosphere cause variations in the brightness and color within the umbra. [Espenak and Meeus]. Since an exoatmospheric object that appears on the horizon from sea level is actually a little more than 1/2° below it[nb]
Jean Meeus, Formula 16.3 in Astronomical Algorithms, 2nd ed., (Richmond, VA: Willman-Bell, 1998), 106.
 [/nb], the total refraction for sunlight after entering and exiting is twice that, or slightly more than 1°. The apparent diameter of the Earth from the distance of the Moon is just under 2°, so there is sufficient refraction in the lower part of the atmosphere to refract sunlight into the center of the umbra at the distance to the Moon.

Misero is mistaken in his comment about rainbows; rainbows are a different phenomenon. They're due to refraction and internal reflection of light within nearly spherical water droplets in the atmosphere, not the Rayleigh scattering and absorption of shorter wavelengths of light that make sunsets (and lunar eclipses) red. Rainbows appear in the opposite direction as the source of light causing them; since earth is in the same direction as the Sun during a lunar eclipse, this isn't a factor.

aside from how sunsets are not always red, that does not explain how more than just the very edges of the moon are red, if the moon is illuminated by the sight skimming past the sides of the earth: all the more so if the moon is indeed much smaller than the earth, the light should not reach it.
and a rainbow should be form, if light is being split. if light is not being split, it should not magically end up red of all colors.

The atmosphere scatters all the other wavelengths except red/orange. This does not happen with rainbows because it is only water droplets scattering the light in this case.
Additionally, we cannot entirely rule out the nefarious effects of demons, spirits, gnomes, and wizards on our society's ability to comprehend our flat earth as it really is. 

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2015, 12:13:41 PM »
Because the moon has no atmosphere to cause the light to behave in such a way.

well neither does the earth, but still, i'll accept your model here. so, the sun's light goes red when it travels through the earth's atmosphere? that is evidently untrue, just look out your window.
or, if the angle is somehow special, why does the majority of the moon often go red, rather than just the edges? and why is there no rainbow, as misero implied there should be?

What Misero said is that the same principle that causes rainbows to be formed is the same principle that causes red light to hit the moon.

so, the sun's light goes red when it travels through the earth's atmosphere? that is evidently untrue, just look out your window.

Looking out my window at the sunset, and I see red/orange. So I guess it is true.

or, if the angle is somehow special, why does the majority of the moon often go red, rather than just the edges?

Refraction.

so the other colors are scattered, and somehow they don't scatter to the moon, that's exclusively where red light goes. you haven't even begun to answer how the light reaches all of the moon rather than just the edges or none.
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The Ellimist

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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2015, 01:05:14 PM »
Because the moon has no atmosphere to cause the light to behave in such a way.

well neither does the earth, but still, i'll accept your model here. so, the sun's light goes red when it travels through the earth's atmosphere? that is evidently untrue, just look out your window.
or, if the angle is somehow special, why does the majority of the moon often go red, rather than just the edges? and why is there no rainbow, as misero implied there should be?

What Misero said is that the same principle that causes rainbows to be formed is the same principle that causes red light to hit the moon.

so, the sun's light goes red when it travels through the earth's atmosphere? that is evidently untrue, just look out your window.

Looking out my window at the sunset, and I see red/orange. So I guess it is true.

or, if the angle is somehow special, why does the majority of the moon often go red, rather than just the edges?

Refraction.

so the other colors are scattered, and somehow they don't scatter to the moon, that's exclusively where red light goes. you haven't even begun to answer how the light reaches all of the moon rather than just the edges or none.

Quote
so the other colors are scattered, and somehow they don't scatter to the moon, that's exclusively where red light goes
The other light has shorter wavelengths, so they are scattered. Red/orange light has longer wavelengths, so it isn't scattered.

Quote
you haven't even begun to answer how the light reaches all of the moon rather than just the edges or none.

The atmosphere causes the light to refract toward the moon.
Additionally, we cannot entirely rule out the nefarious effects of demons, spirits, gnomes, and wizards on our society's ability to comprehend our flat earth as it really is. 

Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2015, 01:09:13 PM »
Because the moon has no atmosphere to cause the light to behave in such a way.

well neither does the earth, but still, i'll accept your model here. so, the sun's light goes red when it travels through the earth's atmosphere? that is evidently untrue, just look out your window.
or, if the angle is somehow special, why does the majority of the moon often go red, rather than just the edges? and why is there no rainbow, as misero implied there should be?

What Misero said is that the same principle that causes rainbows to be formed is the same principle that causes red light to hit the moon.

so, the sun's light goes red when it travels through the earth's atmosphere? that is evidently untrue, just look out your window.

Looking out my window at the sunset, and I see red/orange. So I guess it is true.

or, if the angle is somehow special, why does the majority of the moon often go red, rather than just the edges?

Refraction.

so the other colors are scattered, and somehow they don't scatter to the moon, that's exclusively where red light goes. you haven't even begun to answer how the light reaches all of the moon rather than just the edges or none.

Shorter wavelengths 'scatter' more easily than long wavelengths, which is why sunsets (and lunar eclipses) have a reddish color.

Eclipsed moon does not simply turn red, it becomes much dimmer than usual - the exposure on the photograph you posted is very different from what would be used for a normal full moon. Here's a collage of different phases of a lunar eclipse; you can see how the part shaded by earth loses it's normal luminosity, appearing black. Top row is exposed for normal luminosity, bottom row for 'earthshine' so we can see detail and color during totality.

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2015, 01:10:36 PM »
Because the moon has no atmosphere to cause the light to behave in such a way.

well neither does the earth, but still, i'll accept your model here. so, the sun's light goes red when it travels through the earth's atmosphere? that is evidently untrue, just look out your window.
or, if the angle is somehow special, why does the majority of the moon often go red, rather than just the edges? and why is there no rainbow, as misero implied there should be?

What Misero said is that the same principle that causes rainbows to be formed is the same principle that causes red light to hit the moon.

so, the sun's light goes red when it travels through the earth's atmosphere? that is evidently untrue, just look out your window.

Looking out my window at the sunset, and I see red/orange. So I guess it is true.

or, if the angle is somehow special, why does the majority of the moon often go red, rather than just the edges?

Refraction.

so the other colors are scattered, and somehow they don't scatter to the moon, that's exclusively where red light goes. you haven't even begun to answer how the light reaches all of the moon rather than just the edges or none.

Quote
so the other colors are scattered, and somehow they don't scatter to the moon, that's exclusively where red light goes
The other light has shorter wavelengths, so they are scattered. Red/orange light has longer wavelengths, so it isn't scattered.

Quote
you haven't even begun to answer how the light reaches all of the moon rather than just the edges or none.

The atmosphere causes the light to refract toward the moon.

scattered implies it goes somewhere. where does it go? or are you bidding a farewell to any physics and saying it gets destroyed?
and would you care to provide more than "it just does. uhhh?" how does the atmosphere 'refract' light so it bends around a huge spherical object to reach all of the much smaller moon? are you now endorsing bendy light?

as it is, neimoka, those photos look exactly like cooled metal. surely you can see that?
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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2015, 01:18:03 PM »
Because the moon has no atmosphere to cause the light to behave in such a way.

well neither does the earth, but still, i'll accept your model here. so, the sun's light goes red when it travels through the earth's atmosphere? that is evidently untrue, just look out your window.
or, if the angle is somehow special, why does the majority of the moon often go red, rather than just the edges? and why is there no rainbow, as misero implied there should be?

What Misero said is that the same principle that causes rainbows to be formed is the same principle that causes red light to hit the moon.

so, the sun's light goes red when it travels through the earth's atmosphere? that is evidently untrue, just look out your window.

Looking out my window at the sunset, and I see red/orange. So I guess it is true.

or, if the angle is somehow special, why does the majority of the moon often go red, rather than just the edges?

Refraction.

so the other colors are scattered, and somehow they don't scatter to the moon, that's exclusively where red light goes. you haven't even begun to answer how the light reaches all of the moon rather than just the edges or none.

Quote
so the other colors are scattered, and somehow they don't scatter to the moon, that's exclusively where red light goes
The other light has shorter wavelengths, so they are scattered. Red/orange light has longer wavelengths, so it isn't scattered.

Quote
you haven't even begun to answer how the light reaches all of the moon rather than just the edges or none.

The atmosphere causes the light to refract toward the moon.

scattered implies it goes somewhere. where does it go? or are you bidding a farewell to any physics and saying it gets destroyed?
and would you care to provide more than "it just does. uhhh?" how does the atmosphere 'refract' light so it bends around a huge spherical object to reach all of the much smaller moon? are you now endorsing bendy light?

as it is, neimoka, those photos look exactly like cooled metal. surely you can see that?

Shorter wavelengths scatter all around - longer ones are less affected, and continue more or less in the general direction they were headed, some of it ending up on the moon. There are easy methods you can use at home to test how different 'colors' or light scatter, if you're interested.

I've done a good bit of metal working, and have observed the moon through a telescope, and in my opinion the moon does not look metallic, be the metal heated or cooled, liquid or solid.

Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2015, 01:18:21 PM »
Because the moon has no atmosphere to cause the light to behave in such a way.

well neither does the earth, but still, i'll accept your model here. so, the sun's light goes red when it travels through the earth's atmosphere? that is evidently untrue, just look out your window.
or, if the angle is somehow special, why does the majority of the moon often go red, rather than just the edges? and why is there no rainbow, as misero implied there should be?

What Misero said is that the same principle that causes rainbows to be formed is the same principle that causes red light to hit the moon.

so, the sun's light goes red when it travels through the earth's atmosphere? that is evidently untrue, just look out your window.

Looking out my window at the sunset, and I see red/orange. So I guess it is true.

or, if the angle is somehow special, why does the majority of the moon often go red, rather than just the edges?

Refraction.

so the other colors are scattered, and somehow they don't scatter to the moon, that's exclusively where red light goes.
The other colors are more effectively absorbed by dust and aerosols in the atmosphere, or scattered in all directions, so very little happens to be scattered in the direction of the Moon (which takes up only about 0.000531% of the whole sky[nb]
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_angle
 [/nb]; further, during an eclipse, only a tiny part of the light scattered in the right direction can make it to the Moon because earth is in the way of most of it), leaving mostly the red to pass all the way through.

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you haven't even begun to answer how the light reaches all of the moon rather than just the edges or none.
I did. Repeating:

Since an exoatmospheric object that appears on the horizon from sea level is actually a little more than 1/2° below it[nb]
Jean Meeus, Formula 16.3 in Astronomical Algorithms, 2nd ed., (Richmond, VA: Willman-Bell, 1998), 106.
 [/nb], the total refraction for sunlight after entering and exiting is twice that, or slightly more than 1°. The apparent diameter of the Earth from the distance of the Moon is just under 2°, so there is sufficient refraction in the lower part of the atmosphere to refract sunlight into the center of the umbra at the distance to the Moon.
The reddish light that passes through the atmosphere near sea level is refracted enough to fill the entire umbra where the Moon is. Also, the darkness of the umbra is approximately symmetrical with the umbra [Espenak and Meeus] - not the Moon, which seldom passes directly through the center of the umbra.

The picture provided by you clearly shows this. Note the south part of the Moon (bottom of picture) is noticeably brighter than the north and the reddish color is less saturated. The northern limb of the Moon passed barely south of the center of the umbra in this eclipse (click the diagram below for a more detailed image).




Any questions?
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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2015, 01:27:11 PM »
neimoka, i'm interested if you can provide any relevant examples. i know light may be split with, for example, a prism, but that wouldn't relate to the atmosphere, or how only one color reaches the moon.
i would also question whether observation alone is a good tactic. there are many forms of metal, and by observation it's only being told that the moon is rock that makes that sound like any kind of possibility.

to alpha, as the earth and sun exist on a rough plane in round earth theory, how is it the light from the sun manages to hit the moon from north to south, rather than from east to west as we would expect if the earth was rotating into the way?
in addition, it's all very well to say something is the case, but that doesn't make it possible. in round earth theory, the moon is tiny compared to the earth: it is completely hidden. with that in mind, how can light go through the atmosphere, and then move so far it can reach the center of the moon? talking about angles seems only to be evasion: this is something you can test yourself. hide a small mirror behind a big book or something, and shine a light on the far side of the book. the light is never going to hit the mirror: something too big is in the way.
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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2015, 02:08:23 PM »
neimoka, i'm interested if you can provide any relevant examples. i know light may be split with, for example, a prism, but that wouldn't relate to the atmosphere, or how only one color reaches the moon.
i would also question whether observation alone is a good tactic.

Does this mean that you're retracting this statement:

so, the sun's light goes red when it travels through the earth's atmosphere? that is evidently untrue, just look out your window.

You got your ass handed to you for it, so I can see giving up that line of reasoning. Smart move.

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there are many forms of metal, and by observation it's only being told that the moon is rock that makes that sound like any kind of possibility.

The surface features of the Moon look more like rock than metal, so there's that, too.

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to alpha, as the earth and sun exist on a rough plane in round earth theory,

??? Two points define a line, not a plane.

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how is it the light from the sun manages to hit the moon from north to south, rather than from east to west as we would expect if the earth was rotating into the way?

??? The only thing that matters is what the Sun-Earth-Moon geometry is at any moment, not how it got that way.

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in addition, it's all very well to say something is the case, but that doesn't make it possible.

Yes, but what is described is not only possible, but, likely, correct. Speaking of which, you demanded the math and sources. I've given citations. Where are yours?

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in round earth theory, the moon is tiny compared to the earth: it is completely hidden. [from what?] with that in mind, how can light go through the atmosphere, and then move so far it can reach the center of the moon? talking about angles seems only to be evasion:

It's not evasion. It's an answer you don't like. Tough.

In optics problems (this is one) angles are what matter.

You can calculate the offset in kilometers (or furlongs, if you like) if you know the angle and distance. In this case, you have both, so it's easy (if you know what you're doing).

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this is something you can test yourself. hide a small mirror behind a big book or something, and shine a light on the far side of the book. the light is never going to hit the mirror: something too big is in the way.

This is not a realistic experiment. A better experiment would be to black out the center of a large, red-tinted lens, leaving only a ring around the outside. Place something smaller than your central obscuration behind the lens and fully illuminate the lens with a light some distance away. There will be some arrangements where the refracted red light will illuminate an area larger than the target, even though it would be completely in the shadow of the obscuration itself if the lens weren't present.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2015, 02:28:11 PM »
neimoka, i'm interested if you can provide any relevant examples. i know light may be split with, for example, a prism, but that wouldn't relate to the atmosphere, or how only one color reaches the moon.
i would also question whether observation alone is a good tactic. there are many forms of metal, and by observation it's only being told that the moon is rock that makes that sound like any kind of possibility.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/BlueSky/blue_sky.html

You can see how the shorter wavelength colors 'scatter' away first, red travels further.

Terrain on Moon looks to me like it's rocky mountains, valleys and craters. Which is ofc what it it, as confirmed by the numerous spacecraft that have landed there. Not at all like any metal that I've smelted or otherwise worked with.

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The Ellimist

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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2015, 02:37:27 PM »
neimoka, i'm interested if you can provide any relevant examples. i know light may be split with, for example, a prism but that wouldn't relate to the atmosphere, or how only one color reaches the moon.

This is where one's inference skills would come to good use. If light can be refracted by a prism, and we're claiming light is refracted by the atmosphere, you can infer that the atmosphere acts as a "prism" (but not exactly, which is why they refract several colors instead of all of them) to refract light.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 02:43:47 PM by The Ellimist »
Additionally, we cannot entirely rule out the nefarious effects of demons, spirits, gnomes, and wizards on our society's ability to comprehend our flat earth as it really is. 

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2015, 03:44:33 PM »
alpha, i fail to see how commenting that the behavior of the earth's atmosphere is nothing like a prism even begins to deal with the problem of light magically changing color. on the same topic, elimist, you don't get to say it's not a prism, and then decide it has whatever traits are convenient for you. that's just bad science. the atmosphere is not a prism, fact. if light moving through the 'atmosphere' could change light's color, we would observe it with more than just sunsets.

i have no idea how you can concude something looks more like rock than any kind of metal, especially considering the similarities between the two. the only reason you think it looks like rock is because you suppose it is a rock.

the solar system, in the round earth model, exists on a plane. i'm not sure why you'd argue with that. the fact it would be impossible for the earth-moon-sun geometry to reach what apparently happened is entirely relevant: if it could not happen, it did not happen, and your round earth nonsense is debunked there and then.

neimoka, none of that is what you promised.
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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2015, 03:54:13 PM »
i have done the math, and you are completely wrong. explanation is forthcoming. the light from the sun could not reach the moon in any capacity.
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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: lunar eclipse, round earth explanation
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2015, 04:09:10 PM »
let's try some basic trig.



those are the given round earth values, with basic trig applied to work out the shortest possible distance sunlight will meet. the moon is simply too close to the earth. there is rounding, but the final result is too far from the supposed value, and it took a lot of rounding downs to get to it.

round earth debunked.
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