ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?

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Mikey T.

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Re: ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2015, 03:19:23 AM »
You are right. It will melt away very easy due to the friction and then the whole space craft/capsule will melt too. Imagine being protected by only 25-50 mm resin (plastic) which cannot absorb much heat at all at re-entry. That plastic heat shields do not work is however a military secret in the interest of US national security. Heat shields are fitted on all US InterContinental Ballistic Missiles with their nuclear warheads to destroy Russia when necessary.

Do you know how much heat it would take to melt such a large amount of material, especially when that material is an insulator and has a high melting point? 

Yes, according http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_0030/0901b8038003042d.pdf?filepath=/296-00279.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc :

With Glass Transition Temperatures (Tg) ranging from 259-491F (126-255C), DOW Epoxy Novolac resins offer excellent heat resistance in cured systems.

As the heat shield will be subject to temperatures >10 000C it and the complete space craft will disintegrate within seconds.



Please stop calling yourself an engineer, at least until you can stop spouting incorrect figures.  Where did you get the > 10000 degrees Celsius from?  The correct temperature stated was 3300 C.  Plus the nature of the shape of the reentry module being a blunt instead of aerodynamic compresses the air into a sort of air barrier that also acts as a medium to dissipate more heat.  The ablative honeycomb filled with gel has to have the ability to disperse the heat without this air insulator anyway.  I'm not going into math formulas for friction coefficients for the air during the deceleration through the upper atmosphere right now since I have serious doubts that you understand the basic physics behind any engineering field.  I have remained quiet watching some of the posts and even perused your site a bit. 
BTW great, so you have worked in some industrial field somewhere before since you know how to use the material safety data sheets. 

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Heiwa

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Re: ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2015, 05:53:21 AM »
You are right. It will melt away very easy due to the friction and then the whole space craft/capsule will melt too. Imagine being protected by only 25-50 mm resin (plastic) which cannot absorb much heat at all at re-entry. That plastic heat shields do not work is however a military secret in the interest of US national security. Heat shields are fitted on all US InterContinental Ballistic Missiles with their nuclear warheads to destroy Russia when necessary.

Do you know how much heat it would take to melt such a large amount of material, especially when that material is an insulator and has a high melting point? 

Yes, according http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_0030/0901b8038003042d.pdf?filepath=/296-00279.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc :

With Glass Transition Temperatures (Tg) ranging from 259-491F (126-255C), DOW Epoxy Novolac resins offer excellent heat resistance in cured systems.

As the heat shield will be subject to temperatures >10 000C it and the complete space craft will disintegrate within seconds.



Please stop calling yourself an engineer, at least until you can stop spouting incorrect figures.  Where did you get the > 10000 degrees Celsius from?  The correct temperature stated was 3300 C.  Plus the nature of the shape of the reentry module being a blunt instead of aerodynamic compresses the air into a sort of air barrier that also acts as a medium to dissipate more heat.  The ablative honeycomb filled with gel has to have the ability to disperse the heat without this air insulator anyway.  I'm not going into math formulas for friction coefficients for the air during the deceleration through the upper atmosphere right now since I have serious doubts that you understand the basic physics behind any engineering field.  I have remained quiet watching some of the posts and even perused your site a bit. 
BTW great, so you have worked in some industrial field somewhere before since you know how to use the material safety data sheets.

Thanks for your contribution. Evidently the air is compressed in front of the heat shield but it does not prevent heat building up due to friction. You suggest the heat is at 3 300C but Novolac resins cannot resist 3 300C and will melt immediately. The whole heat shield nonsense is Buzz Aldrin 1969 fantasies.

Thanks also for perusing my site. You should then know that any space ship capsule trying a re-entry is aerodynamically unstable and will start rotate around itself with catastrophic consequences, e.g. the shield is suddenly facing aft.


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sceptimatic

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Re: ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2015, 06:01:54 AM »
How high above Earth for a space craft, is classified as a re-entry burn?
It seems a bit sketchy as to what altitude it is.

For instance: when a supposed re-entry cone starts to hit friction, how far above Earth is it and at what speed does it hit the atmosphere for the very first friction burn?

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mikeman7918

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Re: ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2015, 09:19:14 AM »
How high above Earth for a space craft, is classified as a re-entry burn?
It seems a bit sketchy as to what altitude it is.

For instance: when a supposed re-entry cone starts to hit friction, how far above Earth is it and at what speed does it hit the atmosphere for the very first friction burn?

The atmosphere doesn't really start at a specific point, it's more of a gradient.  The "official" edge of the atmosphere is not actually where the atmosphere ends, it's just where the border between Earth and soace is defined to be.  Even the International Space Station is in an unbelievably thin layer of the exosphere (the outermost layer of the atmosphere), it's not thick enough to burn it up but it has to boost it's orbit every once in a while because the atmosphere slows it down.  Reentry doesn't start all at once at a definite altitude, it slowly gets more intense until it reaches it's maximum intensity and then the capsule is slow enough for reentry to start getting less intense.
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mikeman7918

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Re: ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2015, 09:27:15 AM »
Heiwa, something worth noting is that air is a lousy conductor of heat, especially when it's as low density as it is in the upper atmosphere.  Heat also expands things, and when things expand they get less dense and therefore less conductive, and air around a reentering capsule is quite hot and very low density.

My brother has actually build an arc furnace capable of melting steel and to contain the reaction he used refractory fire brick which is made of a material with a high melting point and it's an extremely good insulator because it is full of air bubbles.  You could have molten steel inside the arc furnace and if you touch the outside of the one inch thick wall it's not even noticeably warm because that's how good air is at insulating heat.
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Heiwa

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Re: ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2015, 12:15:18 PM »
Heiwa, something worth noting is that air is a lousy conductor of heat, especially when it's as low density as it is in the upper atmosphere.  Heat also expands things, and when things expand they get less dense and therefore less conductive, and air around a reentering capsule is quite hot and very low density.

Yes, air has low density in the upper atmosphere and will not provide much friction/braking. And it is a lousy conductor so most of the heat remains in the heat shield. Yes, heat expands the heat shield ... and the poor people behind it have a hot time. Like a sauna. But it only lasts 10 seconds. Then they are vaporized. POUFF!

Re: ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2015, 01:03:28 PM »
Heiwa, something worth noting is that air is a lousy conductor of heat, especially when it's as low density as it is in the upper atmosphere.  Heat also expands things, and when things expand they get less dense and therefore less conductive, and air around a reentering capsule is quite hot and very low density.

Yes, air has low density in the upper atmosphere and will not provide much friction/braking. And it is a lousy conductor so most of the heat remains in the heat shield. Yes, heat expands the heat shield ... and the poor people behind it have a hot time. Like a sauna. But it only lasts 10 seconds. Then they are vaporized. POUFF!

It's ABLATIVE! The heat shield breaks up gradually carrying the heated sections away.

Also, re-entry into the atmosphere does not cause heating due to friction. It is actually the compression wave of the air in front of the shield that causes the heating.
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mikeman7918

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Re: ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2015, 02:20:13 PM »
Yes, air has low density in the upper atmosphere and will not provide much friction/braking.

That's why reentry takes 20-30 minutes.

And it is a lousy conductor so most of the heat remains in the heat shield.

Just take a minute to think where the heat originates in reentry.  Contrary to popular belief, it's not friction, it's actually compression heating.  As air compressed in front of the capsule it heats up, and I shouldn't have to explain why or how this happens to an engineer so I won't.  The air is what gets so hot and sense it's a lousy conductor it only conducts a tiny fraction of that heat to the heat shield which gets rid of it by getting rid of the melted heat shield material which cools the heat shield the same way you get cooler by sweating.

Yes, heat expands the heat shield

That's why heat shields are made with that in mind.  They are designed and so they will be the right shape when they are heated up, and the space shuttle's heat shield is actually made up of small tiles with gaps between them and during reentry the tiles expand to fill all the gaps.

... and the poor people behind it have a hot time. Like a sauna. But it only lasts 10 seconds. Then they are vaporized. POUFF!

Nope.  It lasts 20-30 minutes and then they find themselves descending towards the ocean on a parachute.  That's how it works in reality anyway.
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mikeman7918

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Re: ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2015, 07:25:44 PM »
Heiwa, to prove that reentry is possible and demonstrate the mechanics of it I would like you to preform and consider the following experiment:

Take a piece of metal (or just about anything really) and heat it up in a fire until it's glowing red.  Take it out of the fire and note how long it takes to cool off with only air surrounding it.  This is because air is a great insulator.  Now heat up the piece of metal again if necessary and submerge it in water.  The water will boil around the piece of metal and within seconds it will be cool enough to touch.  The metal conducted it's heat away so quickly because water is a great conductor and another thing worth noting is that when the water boiled the vapor carried the heat away with it simelarly to how pieces melt off heat shields to carry heat away.  That's a very effective way of cooling things.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 07:21:15 AM by mikeman7918 »
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Heiwa

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Re: ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2015, 12:15:10 AM »

It's ABLATIVE! The heat shield breaks up gradually carrying the heated sections away.

Also, re-entry into the atmosphere does not cause heating due to friction. It is actually the compression wave of the air in front of the shield that causes the heating.

Anyway, the heat shield consists of only a 25-50 mm fiberglass honeycomb structure filled with a resin that melts/burns at low temperature after hardening. That this flimsy structure peels off layer by layer when heated by contact with the atmosphere at great velocity starting at about 9 000 m/s and prevents the space craft behind to burn up is a dream. Actually just invented or made up by Buzz Aldrin 50 years ago.

There is no evidence at all that it works.

Funnily enough the same heat shield is used by US ICBMs when wiping out Russia. I am very happy to know the heat shield system does not work.

Re: ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2015, 04:43:18 AM »

It's ABLATIVE! The heat shield breaks up gradually carrying the heated sections away.

Also, re-entry into the atmosphere does not cause heating due to friction. It is actually the compression wave of the air in front of the shield that causes the heating.


There is no evidence at all that it works.


Other than the dozens of missions carried out in the GEMINI and APOLLO projects.
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Heiwa

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Re: ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2015, 04:52:29 AM »

It's ABLATIVE! The heat shield breaks up gradually carrying the heated sections away.

Also, re-entry into the atmosphere does not cause heating due to friction. It is actually the compression wave of the air in front of the shield that causes the heating.


There is no evidence at all that it works.


Other than the dozens of missions carried out in the GEMINI and APOLLO projects.

Yes - but is there any evidence that the 1960's GEMINI and APOLLO projects were actually done? It seems the 2015 ORION Space Program is a joke. I assume the GEMINI and APOLLO projects were similar.

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markjo

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Re: ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2015, 06:38:59 AM »
Yes - but is there any evidence that the 1960's GEMINI and APOLLO projects were actually done?
Yes, there's lots of evidence that Apollo and Gemini projects were actually done.  Evidence like public launches of those vehicles, live broadcasts, used space capsules in museums, mission reports, astronauts that flew on those missions and several hundred pounds of lunar material.

It seems the 2015 ORION Space Program is a joke. I assume the GEMINI and APOLLO projects were similar.
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Heiwa

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Re: ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2015, 08:24:21 AM »
... used space capsules in museums ...

Go and have a look at the used heat shields and tell me what you think.

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mikeman7918

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Re: ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2015, 08:33:19 AM »
... used space capsules in museums ...

Go and have a look at the used heat shields and tell me what you think.

I have seen the Apollo 11 capsule in the Smithsonian and the heat shield definitely looked quite charred but still in tact.
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markjo

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Re: ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2015, 09:44:45 AM »
... used space capsules in museums ...

Go and have a look at the used heat shields and tell me what you think.
I have seen the used heat shields of several capsules.  Have you?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Rama Set

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Re: ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2015, 09:56:57 AM »
Yes - but is there any evidence that the 1960's GEMINI and APOLLO projects were actually done?
Yes, there's lots of evidence that Apollo and Gemini projects were actually done.  Evidence like public launches of those vehicles, live broadcasts, used space capsules in museums, mission reports, astronauts that flew on those missions and several hundred pounds of lunar material.


Don't forget the interception and relay of radio signals from the moon by amateur radio operators.
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Heiwa

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Re: ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?
« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2015, 11:18:42 AM »
Yes - but is there any evidence that the 1960's GEMINI and APOLLO projects were actually done?
Yes, there's lots of evidence that Apollo and Gemini projects were actually done.  Evidence like public launches of those vehicles, live broadcasts, used space capsules in museums, mission reports, astronauts that flew on those missions and several hundred pounds of lunar material.


Don't forget the interception and relay of radio signals from the moon by amateur radio operators.
Yes, I have been in touch with one of those PhDs. He faked it 1969 to get famous. Made his own antennas to listen in on Buzz and Neal. What a joke.

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Rama Set

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Re: ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?
« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2015, 05:21:01 PM »
Yes - but is there any evidence that the 1960's GEMINI and APOLLO projects were actually done?
Yes, there's lots of evidence that Apollo and Gemini projects were actually done.  Evidence like public launches of those vehicles, live broadcasts, used space capsules in museums, mission reports, astronauts that flew on those missions and several hundred pounds of lunar material.


Don't forget the interception and relay of radio signals from the moon by amateur radio operators.
Yes, I have been in touch with one of those PhDs. He faked it 1969 to get famous. Made his own antennas to listen in on Buzz and Neal. What a joke.

He told you this?  You are assuming this?  What was his name?  Are you friendly with him or did you call his integrity in to question?  It's tough to tell what you are talking about.

Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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markjo

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Re: ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?
« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2015, 07:48:05 PM »
Yes - but is there any evidence that the 1960's GEMINI and APOLLO projects were actually done?
Yes, there's lots of evidence that Apollo and Gemini projects were actually done.  Evidence like public launches of those vehicles, live broadcasts, used space capsules in museums, mission reports, astronauts that flew on those missions and several hundred pounds of lunar material.


Don't forget the interception and relay of radio signals from the moon by amateur radio operators.
Yes, I have been in touch with one of those PhDs. He faked it 1969 to get famous. Made his own antennas to listen in on Buzz and Neal. What a joke.
What's so hard about making antennas?  ???
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Heiwa

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Re: ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?
« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2015, 11:41:38 PM »
Yes - but is there any evidence that the 1960's GEMINI and APOLLO projects were actually done?
Yes, there's lots of evidence that Apollo and Gemini projects were actually done.  Evidence like public launches of those vehicles, live broadcasts, used space capsules in museums, mission reports, astronauts that flew on those missions and several hundred pounds of lunar material.


Don't forget the interception and relay of radio signals from the moon by amateur radio operators.
Yes, I have been in touch with one of those PhDs. He faked it 1969 to get famous. Made his own antennas to listen in on Buzz and Neal. What a joke.

He told you this?  You are assuming this?  What was his name?  Are you friendly with him or did you call his integrity in to question?  It's tough to tell what you are talking about.

His name is Sven Grahn - http://www.svengrahn.pp.se/trackind/Apollo17/APOLLO17.htm - now retired from Svenska Rymdbolaget (Swedish Space Corporation). I evidently called his integrity into question. He & friends were faking it to impress their bosses.

PS It was not Apollo 11 1969 but Apollo 17 1972. Same shit, though!
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 12:25:45 AM by Heiwa »

Re: ORION Space Program - Is this a joke?
« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2015, 03:30:29 AM »
Exactly what evidence do you have that he faked his data?

I'm guessing it's somewhere between none and zero.
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