Poll

What is the Ideal State?

Plato's Republic.
Thomas More's Utopia.
The Qur'an's Sharia governed State.
A Halachic State (one governed specifically according to Torah Law, which Israel isn't).
One governed according to a strict interpretation of Roman Catholic thought.
One governed according to a strict interpretation of Calvinist thought.
A purely Communist State, governed by strict Marxism as presented in Das Kapital and Theories of Surplus Value.
A State governed in accordance with the Hindu/Indian caste system.
A purely anarchic non-State.
Other (Read comment below and then tell us what you think).

What is the Ideal State?

  • 36 Replies
  • 6215 Views
*

FalseProphet

  • 3696
  • Life is just a tale
Re: What is the Ideal State?
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2015, 03:19:51 PM »
Fuck you.

Re: What is the Ideal State?
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2015, 07:52:05 PM »
JANE, you are essentially relying on humans going back to the "Noblest Savage" of ourselves, before the human being was corrupted by Jean-Jacques Rousseau's "Civilisation". I know that Rousseau called it such. I fully realise our friend "False Prophet" being from Sarawak might not appreciate it, as he and his people were often designated as such by the Caucasians who entered his country. So, before I go further, I want to say that I apologise for any offence that I may have just caused to you, False Prophet. Do you really think, JANE, that such a course of action is even possible? I mean, let's be honest. Pandora's Box was opened a long time ago, not just for Sarawak, but for everyone on the planet.

I mean, Sarawak actually represents a good example. If ANYONE should be able to go back to a State of anarchic glory, it would be them, wouldn't it? After all, they have less time in living with all the evils of "Civilisation", don't they? And yet, I would bet dollars to doughnuts that they probably have no mechanisms in place that would work for them to do that any more than we do.

@Yaakov

Quote
Plato

You must be a philosopher to come to such aberrant views. That's not wisdom, it's ideology. What would differentiate such a society from the form of totalitarianism we have had in the last century and a  half in the world? {corrections made for my ease of clarity}.

As I stated in the portion of my quote that you do not include, there are some aspects of "The Republic" that could use some tweaking. This is perhaps one of them. Clearly, he is relying too much on his Theory of the Forms here. He is "belabouring the point", as one of my teachers would have said.

And, well, yes, I am a Philosopher. And, well, yes, I concede that Philosophers should probably not be allowed to rule the State in an untrammeled manner, without some sort of limit on their power. Purely philosophical rule has given us some rather strange shit over the last century (Pol Pot being the most extreme example, when they tried to run the country according to Khieu Samphan's doctoral thesis. As we can see, that went well. NOT!).

So, while I do believe in the concept of the Philosopher-King, they should be limited by a Constitution of some sort. Obviously, I would have to think all this out, and the key question is the following, to wit:

Can one person design a State? Or would it take more than one person? Well, we could find out. If other people join us in this chat, we could figure out together what might make Kallipolis the perfect place to live.

*

Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 11690
Re: What is the Ideal State?
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2015, 01:10:14 AM »
JANE, you are essentially relying on humans going back to the "Noblest Savage" of ourselves, before the human being was corrupted by Jean-Jacques Rousseau's "Civilisation". I know that Rousseau called it such. I fully realise our friend "False Prophet" being from Sarawak might not appreciate it, as he and his people were often designated as such by the Caucasians who entered his country. So, before I go further, I want to say that I apologise for any offence that I may have just caused to you, False Prophet. Do you really think, JANE, that such a course of action is even possible? I mean, let's be honest. Pandora's Box was opened a long time ago, not just for Sarawak, but for everyone on the planet.

I mean, Sarawak actually represents a good example. If ANYONE should be able to go back to a State of anarchic glory, it would be them, wouldn't it? After all, they have less time in living with all the evils of "Civilisation", don't they? And yet, I would bet dollars to doughnuts that they probably have no mechanisms in place that would work for them to do that any more than we do.


Even self-interest would qualify as 'nobility' in this situation, that's the key.
I never said it was a state that would be at all easy or feasible to reach. There's always more at play. In risky situations, a leader's useful so things happen quickly: that's probably how they originally came about. The problem is, it's very hard to unlearn something. Given we're not going to be able to start from scratch, a huge adjustment period would still be needed.
Even in Sarawak, as you said, they're not sued to living purely in the anarchic state. The problem is in the transition, I've never denied that.

Re: What is the Ideal State?
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2015, 04:19:28 AM »
JANE, you are essentially relying on humans going back to the "Noblest Savage" of ourselves, before the human being was corrupted by Jean-Jacques Rousseau's "Civilisation". I know that Rousseau called it such. I fully realise our friend "False Prophet" being from Sarawak might not appreciate it, as he and his people were often designated as such by the Caucasians who entered his country. So, before I go further, I want to say that I apologise for any offence that I may have just caused to you, False Prophet. Do you really think, JANE, that such a course of action is even possible? I mean, let's be honest. Pandora's Box was opened a long time ago, not just for Sarawak, but for everyone on the planet.

I mean, Sarawak actually represents a good example. If ANYONE should be able to go back to a State of anarchic glory, it would be them, wouldn't it? After all, they have less time in living with all the evils of "Civilisation", don't they? And yet, I would bet dollars to doughnuts that they probably have no mechanisms in place that would work for them to do that any more than we do.


Even self-interest would qualify as 'nobility' in this situation, that's the key.
I never said it was a state that would be at all easy or feasible to reach. There's always more at play. In risky situations, a leader's useful so things happen quickly: that's probably how they originally came about. The problem is, it's very hard to unlearn something. Given we're not going to be able to start from scratch, a huge adjustment period would still be needed.
Even in Sarawak, as you said, they're not sued to living purely in the anarchic state. The problem is in the transition, I've never denied that.

How wold self-interest qualify as "nobility" in this situation? I do agree that the transition time would be the problem. In fact, I don't think it would be possible.

*

Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 11690
Re: What is the Ideal State?
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2015, 06:29:27 AM »
How wold self-interest qualify as "nobility" in this situation?
I thought I'd explained that: it's how any anarchic society would need to function. If someone does something wrong, word would spread, and they'd face censure for it, perhaps sanctions. In a society which relies and runs on codependence and trust, losing that trust is a major event.
It follows that, if you're looking out for yourself, you would seek to gain peoples' trust and respect. In that way, self-interest would translate to noble actions.

Quote
I do agree that the transition time would be the problem. In fact, I don't think it would be possible.
Maybe, maybe not. It'd be slow, and hard, no question. Beyond that, it's a hypothetical situation, we can't say.

*

Lemmiwinks

  • 2107
  • President of the Non-Conformist Zetetic Council
Re: What is the Ideal State?
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2015, 10:52:51 AM »
Personally I am a fan of Heinlein's Starship Troopers Government, where to earn the right to vote or run for office you need to serve your country first.
I have 13 [academic qualifications] actually. I'll leave it up to you to guess which, or simply call me a  liar. Either is fine.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

Re: What is the Ideal State?
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2015, 04:32:47 PM »
Personally I am a fan of Heinlein's Starship Troopers Government, where to earn the right to vote or run for office you need to serve your country first.

Actually, LEMMIWINKS, I can see your point there, although I don't think military service should be required necessarily. I think civilian service should also qualify one. Some people are unable to serve in the military for any number of reasons. But some kind of draft at adulthood would NOT be a bad idea.