The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium

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Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #450 on: August 19, 2009, 10:43:58 PM »
Quote from: Dioptimus Prime
The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium

Conclusive...hmm...let's see, shall we?  (And yes, I realize this was posted in 2006, but as it is linked from the FAQ, it deserves to be thoroughly picked apart, if possible.)

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Okay. There has been way too many threads asking about the same damned question, and too many people saying that the governments can't pull together a conspiracy as such, and what not. This will conclusively prove that it is entirely plausible, profitable and, hopefully, probable. Expect me to reference this any time you ask a stupid question about the conspiracy again.

Careful how you use the words "conclusively prove."  Also, be careful...this is science, right?  There ARE no stupid questions.  (Arguably, there is no conclusive proof for anything either.)

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First Topic:
How Can They Afford the Conspiracy?

Good question.  Let's see what you say.


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Bribes
Let's look at this liberally (keep in mind these are probably near maximized estimates).

Ah, but you'd actually have to be in on the conspiracy yourself to know whether or not these are "maximized."  In any case, "probably near maximized estimates"?????  What the heck does THAT mean?  Careful you don't trip over your own doublespeak!

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Who DOES Need to Know:
NASA -- Okay, so the top three (at most) need to know, we'll say. These are the guys who actually are controlling the conspiracy, and maybe some of the profit is divided amongst them, but they don't need to be bribed to shut their mouths, and thus have no leverage amongst the others. If we say about three other people in NASA know about it, who are helping with image editing, video editing, and general coverage, but working closely with the top three.

THREE???  Sigh...  Have you ever worked in a group of three for any period of time?  I've never known a group of three (other than the Stooges) who didn't eventually turn on one another, especially when the stakes are high.  Almost inevitably, two gang up and force the third out in order to maximize their cut.  

Also, this word "leverage"...  With apologies to Mandy Patinkin, I do not think this word means what you think it means.

But let's say you're right, and three people run the show and three others help out with all the doctored footage and photos.  That's a staff of six people who are in on the whole joke.  

Do you happen to know how many people it takes to create a single episode of the show "Family Guy"??  One twenty-two minute episode takes FIVE HUNDRED people to produce.  It takes a crew of roughly fifteen people to run your live local nightly newscast (2 anchors, 1 weatherman, 2 to 3 camera operators, 1 producer, 1 person switching cameras, 1 person running the Chyron, 1 person running the audio mixer, 1 person running master control, 1 person running tapes/archived footage, 2 or 3 live reporters, 1 person running the live cam, 1 person running the satellite uplink...and this is assuming that the anchors actually write their own copy and operate their own teleprompters, and also excludes station management.)  Are you really expecting me to believe that a crew of SIX PEOPLE faked the whole lunar landing???  Really???  And out of those six people, how many do you think actually have the artistic talent to make the pictures and video believable??

I mean, have you even looked at the credits of any ILM movie?  (And do you know how impossible it is for most movie productions with the tightest security to keep ONE SINGLE LEAK from occurring?  Almost never works.)

You're going to have to up the ante by several thousand people, and that's just at one time.  Since the inception of NASA, people have been born and people have died.  NASA employees have died, hardly any of them fabulously wealthy, and not a single one of them has had a single pang of guilt, not one deathbed confession.   But if your number of SIX is truly accurate, then it is not only likely, but imperative, that the old six have either died or retired, necessitating a new six.  

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RASA -- The Russians are just about equal if not more active in space exploration as the US, so we'll say these guys have six people helping out with the conspiracy as well. As a matter of fact, tag one more on, just because I'm generous. That leaves us with thirteen people.

Who are RASA?  I googled them, and all I could find were the Roosevelt Academy Student Association, a 1990's band, a mythical goddess, a Krishna concept, a town in Croatia, a record label, a place in Malaysia, and a Gundam character.  I don't mean to be picky here, but it really helps your credibility if you actually know the names of the entities you're talking about.  So far, though, astute info hasn't really been your strong point.  

But whatever.  You generously give them a maximum of seven people, for a grand total now of thirteen people.  Bear in mind, it took 33 directors to craft the Star Wars films.  But I guess if one of the people were willing to run audio AND props, they could pull it off, right?

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China -- Yes, in 2003, China became the third country to independently send a manned spaceship into outer space. However, their space program isn't all that big. As a (very) liberal estimate, we'll say they need about three people. But why don't we tag on one more just to make sure I'm not cheating. That leaves us with seventeen people from the space exploration crews that need to know.

Y'know, I'd almost buy your number with China, because those people CAN keep secrets.  But seriously, three??  You do realize that there 1.3 billion people in China, right?  With your "very liberal estimate" of three people running the conspiracy in China, that would mean the assistant director would have to simultaneously run the cameras, monitor the sound board, operate the boom mic, run master control AND hold the cue cards, right?

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GPS Manufacturers -- I'm going to say they only need one person for this job. There's not really much to do. Machines make most of the chips, and I doubt all of the bosses of the companies need to even bother. They just need to have one guy saying, "Yup, that's right." This guy could even be one of the NASA or RASA members, honestly, but I'm being nice. This rings up to a comprehensive total of eighteen people.

The heck??  ONE???  So what happens if that one guy dies?  The GPS companies would be seriously screwed.  For someone who has written such a comprehensive and conclusive piece, you sure don't seem to have much sense about how a business would actually RUN.  At this point, I'm starting to wonder if you're familiar with much more than the cold block walls of your mother's basement!  But surely even the one guy has to have a secretary, right?

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Public Relations People -- NASA or RASA conspirators could fill this role, too, but again, generosity has the better of me, and I'm going to say that the conspiracy hires people to do this, too, since the guys in the space exploration teams are filled with a bunch of pale, pimply white guys, and therefore aren't good at convincing people of the truth. We'll say they need a couple of these guys, bringing the total up to a whopping twenty people.

Again with RASA...what does Croatia have to do with this?  

Space exploration teams full of pale, pimply white guys...  jeez, I wonder how Joseph Acaba would feel about that?  (He's Puerto Rican, in case you didn't know.)  Or Mike Adams, James Adamson, Andrew Allen, Michael Anderson (a black guy), or even Neil Armstrong would feel?  None of them are pale, and they appeared--at the time--to have great complexions.  (I didn't even get through the A's!)

But that aside...have you ever worked with a PR agency?  What am I saying...of course you haven't.  You don't just work with TWO people.  You've got your speechwriters, make-up advisors, damage control specialists, spokespeople, assistants... the list goes on.  And even if you're right, you're still only at 20 people.  Slightly more than work on your local nightly newscast.

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People Who Have "Been In Space" -- Yes, they need astronauts saying, "Hey! I was up there!" But they're barely part of the conspiracy, they're just people who have a little bit of leverage, and therefore need a bit of bribing. We'll count them as half-people for this count, since they don't really count as conspirators. So, if we have somewhere around fifty people that have "been in space," that means that it counts for about twenty-five conspirators, therefore bringing our total to forty-five which is not as large as is commonly described.

Barely part of the conspiracy?  What... were they drugged and fooled into believing they actually did go to space???  (Suddenly I wish I hadn't asked that question.)  Half-people?  If anyone knows whether or not they went to space, IT IS THEM!  They have the most to hide!  I could possibly concede that a file clerk at NASA might not know the goings-on, but these guys--if what you say is true--all know they did not go to space.  

By the way, your count is WAY the heck off.  Fifty people my ass...there are 510 people who have "been in space."  And these people are being run by six people.  Do you realize what a logistical management nightmare that is???  And do you know the statistical probability that out of 510 people, NOT ONE OF THEM HAS GONE OFF THE SCRIPT??

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Ice Wall Guards -- These guys don't need to be paid in full, either, as they're only guarding an ice wall. I believe that it was Erasmus who pulled some mathematics on this one, and showed that not that many people were needed to guard the ice wall. As they don't really have any leverage on the conspiracy, they won't count for this part (I'll go back to it later), since this is mostly about who needs to be paid to shut their mouths.

Here's where you went off into Whackoville (population: you) and fully lost me.  

First, you're trying to tell me a guy who is guarding a FUCKING ICE WALL at the EDGE OF THE WORLD, who constantly battles frostbite, sinus issues, the fact that his pee freezes mid-stream, crippling loneliness, complete seclusion from the world, and absolutely no poontang whatsoever DOESN'T NEED TO BE PAID IN FULL????

I suppose you could argue that they're stationed so remotely that no one would ever see them, but seriously, none of them ever came back to society?  And nobody has ever been sent to the mainland to get new recruits when Ice Guard Number 22 keels over from frostbite to the testicles?

So yes, let's disregard these (fictional) ice wall guardians for now.

That means your figure is now 45.  That's not even enough to pull off a production of "The Toxic Avenger" on Broadway, much less pull the wool over everyone in the world's eyes.  At best, the production values would be something like "Manos The Hands of Fate."

Not so conclusive thus far, I'm afraid.

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Who Does NOT Need To Know:

PotUS -- Why would the president need to know? All he knows is that he's giving money to what he thinks is a space exploration team, and then he sees exactly what everyone in the world sees on TV. He doesn't ever need to suspect a damned thing.

I suppose I could agree here.  I guess it depends on which PotUS you're talking about.  It's a non-issue though...doesn't really bolster your argument at all.

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Members of Space Teams -- They see exactly what we see as well, but they're sitting on the ground looking at it "Live." That doesn't mean that they know that the people are actually in space, but they can make a really convincing argument towards it, perhaps.

What the hell is a "Space Team"??  Are you referring to Mission Control?  The problem is that they don't just "see it."  They also feel it when the rockets take off.  (This is certainly also witnessed by anyone with eyes in the vicinity.)  And there's really no reason to believe they're NOT up there, unless you believe that they're simply shooting rockets off into nothingness.  I mean, they certainly don't often fall back to Earth anywhere, and those space shuttles do have an annoying tendency of coming back.  (Though I grant that they don't always come back in one piece.)  

The problem is that in order to believe this, you have to also believe that NASA has equipment that functions as commanded 100 percent of the time.  And come on...any of us who watched the Challenger explode in the third grade know THAT isn't the case.  You'd have to assume that all of the monitors in Mission Control are running pre-recorded tape of something.  If it's video...well, if you've ever worked with video at all, you know that it fails and fails OFTEN.  Watch your nightly newscast and see how many mistakes you notice over the next month.  To believe that Mission Control was duped is to believe that NO tape EVER failed in the entire history of launches.  It assumes that nobody accidentally stuck an episode of Full House in, that no machine ever ate the tape during play, that nothing ever got accidentally looped, that the wrong launch wasn't ever mislabelled, etc etc... That simply doesn't happen in the world of television production.

And that's only ONE problem that could happen.

So you can't discount Mission Control.  Some of them would have to know also.

By my count there are literally a thousand people by now who are in on the charade.  None of them told.  

Have you ever tried to keep a secret by telling it to a thousand people?  How about 100?  How about just five?

Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #451 on: August 19, 2009, 10:44:46 PM »
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Conclusive Mathematics:

Basically, I'm going to assume that every single person on my list wants to get paid so that they won't talk about the conspiracy. They're going to want a lot of it, too, most likely. Probably enough so that they won't have to work for the rest of their lives? Well, how's about something like one million dollars per year, plus one million in advance. That's far better than most jobs can fetch, and all they have to do is shut up. Minus the top five or so, since they are the runners of the organization.

The runners?  Coming from someone so "conclusive," I really expected someone a tad bit more erudite, if not a master of basic grammar.

Actually a million dollars isn't very much anymore.  It's not even enough to keep you rich these days.  Nice job aping Dr. Evil, though. 

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That brings us to 40 x 1,000,000.

Actually, it doesn't.  Your last count was 45.  At least be consistent!  (And don't forget, the half-persons, whatever they are.) 

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Forty million dollars plus forty million every year? Sure, it's plenty of cash, but NASA receives so much more money than that from just governmental funds, and while I don't know much about Russian space teams, I'm sure they do, too. They can easily pay for this, and the undernoted requirements for money, without even breaking a sweat; in fact, they'll be probably pulling a profit, just from the government giving them cash.

You don't know much about Russian space teams...nor anything else, if your rant is to be believed as genuine. 

You're forgetting about NASA's astronomical (pun intended) overhead.  Whether or not you believe the rockets they shoot up actually go and stay in space, you have to concede that they ACTUALLY BUILD THEM.  That costs what we like to refer to in the real world as MONEY.  Lots and lots of it, frankly.  And since some of you don't believe that it's possible to actually orbit Earth, you have to assume that these rockets and shuttles that are getting shot into the sky are either ending up as space junk or crashing down around the heads of the Ice Wall guards.  (That would mean there were actually 28 DIFFERENT Columbia shuttles.)  That's a lot of hardware to build and shoot to shit, especially for a group that's all about makin' that fat cheddar!

And don't forget, there's Space Camp!  And research centers, museums, etc.

But seriously though, have you ever visited a NASA facility?  I have!  I have!  They employ an epic shit-ton of people.  Everyone from astronauts down to the filing clerks. 

So essentially what you're telling me is that in order for these BIG THREE people in NASA to make obscene amounts of money, they have to blow up a ton of rockets, blow a bunch of money on fake props, hire thousands of people (who, by the way, are NOT making minimum wage) to look legit, and somehow still turn a profit?  REALLY????  In what universe does this kind of scheme actually work?

How about this more likely scenario:  (Bear with me...I've borrowed some of this from cracked.com in interest of full disclosure.  Other parts I've outright plagiarized, but they make my point.)

First, how much would it take for you to keep your mouth shut?

Let's just assume that since 1959, NOT ONE PERSON has talked.  Out of the thousands who know.  Hell, out of the 500 odd astronauts, nobody talked, not even when drunk, not even during sex, not even to their priest, not even on their deathbed.

There are still a TON of people who could've blown the whole lid off this, but because someone wrote them a check, they kept it to themselves.  That includes folks like you, honest researchers who want to know the truth and who have dedicated their lives to science.  It includes countless numbers of scientists.  (Remember, if you're going with the PR angle, you have to have "expert witnesses" espousing your case!  Some scientists and authors would have to be paid and paid mightily!)

Every astronaut, all of mission control, not just here, but in every single country that has achieved space flight.  They have not only lied to us, but also to each other and to their very own families.

And every science textbook writer is going to have to be on the payroll too.  And that means that someone in the departments of education will have to know.  That takes us out of NASA and into the Federal Government (which is notoriously BAD at keeping ANYTHING a secret.)

Also reporters and scientific journalists who were honestly seeking the truth have been paid enough to walk away from the story of a lifetime, a chance to blow the lid off the conspiracy. Paid enough to refuse a sure Pulitzer and a lifetime of fame and riches as one of history's greatest heroes. And paid in such a way that no other reporters would notice and get jealous or ask questions. These people do tend to be the curious type, you know.

We're getting a nice sized payroll here.

Let's not forget, you have to have the TV networks in the tank.  After all, these people are experts in the field of imagery, and if the government or a government agency like NASA passes something fraudulent off, they stand to profit more from EXPOSING it than simply being complicit.  Many a TV news man's career has been made by bringing down the rich and powerful.

But wait, there's more. Because there are hundreds of thousands of scientists and experts that are constantly evaluating these sorts of things looking for flaws. Approximately zero of them say the moon landings were fake, aside from a crackpot/head here or there.

The conspiracy guys' explanation?

You guessed it. They were paid to stay silent. Hey, why not? Probably half a million people there, but, you know. Since we've got the checkbook out anyway...

Also, think of all of the friends and family of these paid conspirators, who suddenly see all this mysterious wealth...

You've got some hypothetical astronaut who was about to go public saying that all flights are staged, suddenly coming into Powerball-sized wealth and abandoning his moral conviction at the same time... his wife never let it slip? His kids didn't object? All his jealous colleagues who noticed the sudden new cars and new home and elaborate vacations, nobody asked questions? Nobody made an anonymous call to the IRS, just out of spite? All the bank employees who noticed thousands of mysterious deposits, all of which have to be reported to the IRS, that didn't leave a trail?

I mean, we're up to a sizeable portion of the US population here. Odds are you've passed some of these people on the street.  Odds are you ARE one of these people or have met them.

Today.

And keep in mind, this can't be chump change. Even in a world where every structural engineering desk jockey is okay with mass delusion, they're still not going to risk jail and career ruin and walk away from a huge book deal for ten grand. Oh, no, it's got to be millions, per person, just to make it worth it. Even a dedicated conspirator would need to know he or she was set for life.

Let's say they wrote 500,000 checks (hell, you've got more than 300,000 people on the NASA payroll alone, and they'd be the first ones to speak out). Say the average payout was ten million (barely enough to live rich the rest of your life, but let's just say). So that's 500,000 times ten million which is...

...Five TRILLION dollars.

That's about half of the value of all goods and services produced in the United States last year. Therefore the NASA conspiracy was, in terms of payroll, the single largest employer in the history of the world.

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Maintenance:

There doesn't need to be all that much maintenance, besides damage control. The space exploration programs have maintenance funds from their respective governments, so they're all self-sufficient without having to spend excess money on maintaining the conspiracy (seeing as all the cash they're not spending on research can be spent on the conspiracy).
The only reason extra money might need to be poured into the conspiracy would be for damage control. If we say that this would cost somewhere around five million per year, that still only leaves us with forty-five million per year.

Huh?  Maintenance costs would be through the roof!  Again, overhead alone...NASA employs 300,000 if you include all the contractors... plus building rockets that aren't going anywhere?  Jeez, it's not like the BIG THREE are just sitting in the Bahamas drawing a check.  With that, and the cost of keeping the conspiracy quiet, the Big Three would be LOSING MONEY LEFT AND RIGHT.

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*UPDATED*
Ice Wall Guarding:

Now, I'm going to take this, and say that we need about one-thousand men guarding the wall, again with two shifts each, if we include cameras, infrared, radar, intelligence, and all that good stuff. This is more than I stated previously, but bear in mind that I had been very generous with the amount those men had been paid. Now, seeing as the men practically have no influence (all they do is guard an ice wall; it's not like it's probable they have a lot of friends at all, let alone ones in high places), they don't necessarily need a very grand rate of pay. Therefore I'm dropping my previous estimate to a simple one-hundred thousand dollars per person. That still leaves us with the same amount of two-million dollars to pay for every guard in the wall forces.

I'm going to for the moment dismiss Erasmus' quote (rightly) as the ravings of a lunatic.

So what exactly do these guards work for, if not pay.  Do they just enjoy seeing if their tongues will stick to flagpoles? 

Fuck, why not just have a bunch of robots?  (Damn...wish I hadn't said that.)

And you're telling me that in the entire history of the world, no Ice Wall guard has gotten fed up, said "fuck it," and bad-assed his way back to land to tell everybody what was going on?

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CONSPIRACY MONEY TOTAL = $47,000,000 USD (Forty-Million U.S. Dollars)

No.  Moron.  Would you please take an Econ 101 class?  Or at very least, get a real job?  I understand if you don't know much about money and management if all you've ever done is telemarketing from your parents' basement, but please...get a realistic perspective!

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Second Topic:
How Does The Conspiracy Benefit?

This is not easily answered, but I've taken some insight into this and made some estimates on how the conspiracy could be making money:

Government Paychecks:
It's very possible that the conspiracy runs by just sucking money out of the government that they are underneath. Seeing as the head honchos in those governments don't have to know about the conspiracy, it'd be pretty easy to take money from the government. Also, even if the leaders DID know, it's tax money that's going into the space exploration research, so really, they'd still be pulling profit. Basically, if you chose to believe this option, the leaders of the conspiracy are taking tax money and getting filthy stinking rich off of it. Sounds like a motive to me.

Have YOU ever tried to take money from the government?  Seriously.  Try cheating the IRS out of $20K and see if they notice.  And see above for why NASA nor the Big Three would be making profit.

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Display of Power:
Some people are control freaks. Maybe they get a rush from showing that they can change everyone's mind about the true shape of the Earth.

Well I'll be dipped in shit and rolled in bread crumbs!  You've figured this whole thing out!  Apparently NASA is run by Criss Angel.  How will we dominate the people?  Oh wait, I know!  We'll fuck up their concept of geography!

Maybe you get a rush from being RETARDED.

No, really.  You actually think three people, all of whom are apparently Andy Kaufman, are seriously paying out BILLIONS of dollars, employing over a quarter of a million people, launching rockets into outer space ALL FOR A MINDFUCK???

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Embarrassment:
So, the government messed up at a really bad time to mess up, and they've been pooling all of the already-angry tax-payers' money into research that eventually led to a less-than-exciting discovery: The Earth is flat. Everyone was wrong. Millions (probably billions) of dollars of money that didn't really belong to them had been basically tossed down the drain for research of the round Earth, when, in fact it was flat. So, instead of angering people and possibly even sparking a revolt of some sort, they made up some stuff. And you know how lies tend to roll and get bigger and bigger until they're inescapable? I'd say a worldwide conspiracy is that concept...to the max.

So they'd spend millions upon millions of dollars to keep propagating the same mistake?

Hellfire, talk about brittle egos!  You're telling me that some of the finest scientific minds in the world would just say "oops" and make the world look the other way, stifling millenia of potential scientific progress and discoveries, all because they're embarrassed that they were wrong about something?

If science worked that way, we'd never get anywhere.  Hell, we'd still be sacrificing virgins to the volcano gods.  And we're into our second and third generations of this, right?  I know my generation enjoys pointing and laughing at our parents' fuckups.  I'm pretty sure we'd do that for flat earth too.  "I can't BELIEVE you thought the Earth was round, Dad!"

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Recruitment/Faithfulness:
Similar to the one above. Maybe the future-conspirators were ashamed that they hadn't reached out to space yet, and they felt that the people were getting hasty and impatient with them, so they decided to say they did it, and qualm the welling resentment of them, so they could ACTUALLY send people into space on a later date, without a bunch of morons knocking on their doorstep asking when they would be done with their space ship. Unfortunately, they later realized that they were wrong the whole time, and therefore had to uphold the conspiracy, lest they be accused of lying, and therefore reverting the resentment to its original state.

Maybe?  I thought this was supposed to be conclusive.

Couldn't really comprehend the rest of this.  I'm sure you said something...just not sure what.  I gather you think that the first space launch was faked because they didn't want to look like assholes by not actually doing it.  And now they keep on faking it, because they faked it once, and are now stuck in an endless loop of fake.  Still, it seems like an awfully STUPID thing to spend BILLIONS on.

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Third Topic:
What If Someone Squeals?

"Yes," you say, "but what happens when someone leaks the information?"

Why You WOULD Leak Conspiracy Information:

Fame:
You officially proved that the Earth is actually flat. You'll be in history books for ages!

Money:
Interviews with every news station and every magazine ever. You'll be a huge celebrity, and as such, you'll probably be making a fair amount of cash...at least for a little while.

Peace of Mind:
It's probably tough to keep that stuff in your head without leaking some of it out every once in a while. It'd be a lot on your conscience.

If you had posted only this, I'd buy you a beer and tell you what a good man you are.  I'd even let you date my sister.

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Why You Would NOT Leak Conspiracy Information:

Fame:
Some people don't like being in the spotlight all that much. Paparazzi can get annoying, and even though attention may appear to be entertaining, it can get old pretty fast.

Uhhhhh....

I'm thinking that having all that MONEY would be very much helpful in overcoming stage fright.  After all, money buys a compound, guards, and plenty of friends.  (Isn't that how it works for the Big Three?)

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Money:
You no longer get the big fat paychecks from the conspirators. After all of the press wears out, and starts ignoring you again--meaning no more cash from interviews--you'll probably have to start working again.

But you'll START getting big fat paychecks from every media outlet in the world, to say nothing of speaking engagements, academic appointments, and grants for everything you want from now on.  One could make the argument that someone who conclusively proved a flat earth would make MORE by squealing than by keeping their mouth shut.

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Peace of Mind:
You just screwed over all of your friends, just because you wanted a few minutes of fame and a lot of cash. Congratulations.

As opposed to screwing all the world and scientific progress by keeping your mouth shut???  Seriously, if I could prove FE beyond the shadow of a doubt, or if I could prove the space program was bollocks, I would feel it my obligation to tell as many people as possible.  Isn't that how you guys feel?  Isn't that why you have this site?


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Insanity:
If you don't have enough proof, you won't be revered as a revolutionary, you'll be revered as Patient #3562 at the local mental hospital.

Death:
While a most likely uncommon side-effect, NASA could easily kill you and say, "He died in a space shuttle accident, I swear." Honestly, by the way it seems on TV, those things are so unstable, no one would ever EVER doubt that someone died while in space due to some random accident (add a bunch of jargon and you've got an incredibly convincing reason for death).

Ahhhh, I was waiting for the old "they'll just off you if you squeal" line.  Because it's so easy to do that to everyone who jumps out of line.  To say nothing of appeasing all of their husbands, wives, children, parents, etc. 

Besides, if they were going to kill people for publishing the truth, and you guys really have it right...well?  (And yes, I've read your obnoxiously inept and insufficient FAQ.  All I know is this...if you even had it half right, you wouldn't be here, no matter how much they think you're a crackpot.

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Topic Four:
Conclusive Notes:

As you can see, the conspiracy is not only logical, but it's, in its own way, actually quite plausible. With all of these concepts in your face, it's hard to refute AT LEAST the possibility of a conspiracy covering up the shape of the Earth. If anyone wants to rebuttal, though, I gladly welcome it (in fact, I'm probably missing a lot of stuff--but hey, I'm only one guy), and I'll add more to this compendium (hence why it's a compendium).

(1.) NOT conclusive.

(2.) NOT logical, as shown above.

(3.) NOT plausible, again as shown above.

(4.) Concepts are in my face, but retarded.

(5.) EASY to refute.

(6.) POSSIBLE, but infinitely unlikely.

(7.) Consider yourself rebutted.

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SO STOP MAKING CONSPIRACY THREADS!!

No you!

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frostee

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Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #452 on: August 20, 2009, 02:42:57 AM »
That is truly one of the most tl;dr posts i have ever seen
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 05:16:45 PM by Jack »
Recently religious due to the impending rapture.

Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #453 on: August 20, 2009, 05:33:17 AM »
Hah...I agree.

But it made much more sense than the OP.

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Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #454 on: August 20, 2009, 10:12:06 AM »
Hah...I agree.

But it made much more sense than the OP.
The OP stopped coming to this site a while ago
Last Active:     October 06, 2008, 12:50:42 PM

So, don't expect an answer soon, unless some other FE'er feels like dealing with your tl;dr.

Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #455 on: August 20, 2009, 02:08:58 PM »
Hah...I agree.

But it made much more sense than the OP.
The OP stopped coming to this site a while ago
Last Active:     October 06, 2008, 12:50:42 PM

So, don't expect an answer soon, unless some other FE'er feels like dealing with your tl;dr.

Oh, I'm quite sure they'll ignore it just as they do every other set of facts that effectively topples their tower of BS.

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zork

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Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #456 on: August 21, 2009, 02:30:11 AM »
Hah...I agree.

But it made much more sense than the OP.
The OP stopped coming to this site a while ago
Last Active:     October 06, 2008, 12:50:42 PM

So, don't expect an answer soon, unless some other FE'er feels like dealing with your tl;dr.

Oh, I'm quite sure they'll ignore it just as they do every other set of facts that effectively topples their tower of BS.
  Either they ignore or they try come up with another absurd excuses or start attacking you personally. But I must credit you for your long post. There are good points to where other people can refer sometimes when the conspiracy theme comes up in another thread.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
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http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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ShnitzelKiller

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Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #457 on: August 21, 2009, 11:23:32 PM »
GPS manufacturers? You know, the military uses those things seriously. If they show fake maps of the earth, they would sort of notice.

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Benjamin Franklin

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Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #458 on: August 21, 2009, 11:25:56 PM »
GPS manufacturers? You know, the military uses those things seriously. If they show fake maps of the earth, they would sort of notice.
The military knows all and sees all?

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Hisharu

Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #459 on: August 27, 2009, 09:54:11 PM »
Sorry, I am still here. I over wrote on my last post. When push comes to shove, everyone in this forum knows that there is no way a conspiracy of the size it has said to be could possibly exist. With the number of people required to be in it, its impossible for not one person to have brought back evidence, causing it to crumble. Not to mention that not one thread has a reasonable explanation for what gain such a conspiracy would have.

I really should resist posting this because I know people will ignore the real argument above and continue bickering about this- but I'm right-
Yes it is easy to shut down a website: http://www.osamaforpresident.com/
They could do that with this website and just NOT put a message saying it was shutdown for national security reasons and nobody would know the difference.

When someone can explain 1)what gain a country who just added another digit to its national debt clock would gain from a conspiracy that has been proven to cost obscene amounts of money ( 2)not to mention a country that shows you what every dollar is being spent on- how they could cover these millions of dollars still escapes me) and 3) how they have thousands of guards along an ice wall shooting people down and thousands of people in the military, government, and every GPS corporation (there are many privately owned ones, people!) and none have broken down and said something, then I'll give up.
There is no explanation. I'm not sure why I'm wasting my time =)

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ShnitzelKiller

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Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #460 on: September 01, 2009, 11:03:51 PM »
Quote from: GUN
Another thing I thought of - you say that the leaders of this conspiracy are getting fat paychecks from the "funding".
But I thought that this "funding" went towards paying for the advanced digital imaging equipment and computers used to fake space exploration.

So which is it?
Neither. All of the money goes towards faking the existance of an entire continent.

What continent is this?

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #461 on: September 02, 2009, 05:52:24 AM »
Quote from: GUN
Another thing I thought of - you say that the leaders of this conspiracy are getting fat paychecks from the "funding".
But I thought that this "funding" went towards paying for the advanced digital imaging equipment and computers used to fake space exploration.

So which is it?
Neither. All of the money goes towards faking the existance of an entire continent.

What continent is this?

Australia, but he meant it as a joke.

Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #462 on: November 03, 2009, 05:47:42 PM »
I thought he was talking about Antartica.

Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #463 on: November 03, 2009, 05:59:21 PM »
What about that whole thing of Earth accelerating upwards. That means we wouldn't be going by 1g, so the pressure would eventually kill us. The acceleration means a short hop would hurt a lot. How fast are we accelerating, and how fast are we currently going now? If you are a RE, then we are moving at about 1,000 kilometers per second, if you only count the galaxy, but there is no acceleration or deceleration, so that doesn't matter. 

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Eddy Baby

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Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #464 on: November 04, 2009, 01:27:05 PM »
What about that whole thing of Earth accelerating upwards. That means we wouldn't be going by 1g, so the pressure would eventually kill us. The acceleration means a short hop would hurt a lot. How fast are we accelerating, and how fast are we currently going now? If you are a RE, then we are moving at about 1,000 kilometers per second, if you only count the galaxy, but there is no acceleration or deceleration, so that doesn't matter. 

What's your problem?

Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #465 on: December 16, 2009, 03:45:22 PM »
didnt sir richard branson just make a 200,000 dollar space flight possible? yes, i believe he did. thats quite cheap compared to how much it DID cost. so, what now FE'ers? how would he fake that? make projection screen windows? its all taking place in some laboratory? where does it end? why even try to convince yourselves of this? whats the point? what do you have to gain from thinking the earth is flat?

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markjo

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Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #466 on: December 16, 2009, 07:03:24 PM »
didnt sir richard branson just make a 200,000 dollar space flight possible? yes, i believe he did.

Not yet, he didn't.  Virgin Galactic has taken plenty of reservations but so far has made exactly zero space flights.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Haruu

Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #467 on: March 08, 2010, 02:54:47 PM »
I am new, and neither FE, nor RE.... I'm just open minded.

As for gravity being an attraction of masses i have a simple question:

A photon has nearly no mass, being a photon. When it passes by an object, close enough, the path changes.  The more massive the object, and the closer the pass, the more the path of the photon Scinco-magically shifts.  Generally this is accepted as following Newton's law of universal gravity, as well as Einstein's theory of space being curved.

Now me being a scientist at heart, I have suspended all beliefs except for this factor, which i myself have actually measured.  So I know that this *does* happen, and thus far the force is attributed as gravitational attraction, like teenagers with parents out of town.  The more people that show up, the more bodily attraction.

Ok so a very small mass, traveling through air, off the ground, magically alters its path based off the "mass" of the object it is passing near.

The RE's call this gravity, and have shown based off their religion, that it does work.

So I ask FE's to break it down how mass (outside the earth since it doesnt attract, instead auto magically accelerate by way of possibly a flying seaturtle, with 4 (used to be a fifth) elephant with the world on their back flying upwards) affects other masses, like photons.

BTW I use magic, and religion to describe "hard science" since from an outsiders POV none of it makes sense.  It isnt to offend, but to give each side as equal treatment as i can.

Also I would like to say, at least noone is talking string theroy..... i can stay open minded about alot of things, but thats not one of em.

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markjo

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Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #468 on: March 09, 2010, 12:56:15 PM »
A photon has nearly no mass, being a photon.

Fixed that for you.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Haruu

Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #469 on: March 10, 2010, 08:22:07 AM »
A photon has nearly no mass, being a photon.

Fixed that for you.

Actually here is a link for you to read:
http://www.desy.de/user/projects/Physics/ParticleAndNuclear/photon_mass.html

But That aside, once you get past the elementary physics stage, you find out that that photons have mass, just on the super sub atomic scale, which is generally zero... photon are massless and masses at the same time, look up some Graduate level quantum dynamics please.

I bet you also think of 1/0 as #NA or undefined instead of the correct ?.  I am talking exactly, you you are generalizing off of Physics 101.

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Catchpa

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Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #470 on: April 30, 2010, 12:17:29 PM »
I suggest this thread gets taken out from the FAQ, and thoroughly reviewed and most likely replaced for the garbage it is. I don't even think any FE'er believe this is even remotely acccurate.
The conspiracy do train attack-birds

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Death-T

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Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #471 on: April 30, 2010, 03:39:59 PM »
1,000 guards..... for the entire "Ice Wall"............. /sign/ Just..... no. And 47 million? Complete garbarge.
" Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. " - Albert Einstein

" We are imperfect.  We cannot expect perfect government. "  ~William Howard Taft

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Catchpa

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Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #472 on: April 30, 2010, 03:52:52 PM »
1,000 guards..... for the entire "Ice Wall"............. /sign/ Just..... no. And 47 million? Complete garbarge.

About the 1.000 guards thing, it's actually lower but stated in a different thread(He links to it in the FAQ).

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=2620.msg22714#msg22714

He is saying the wall is guarded by 652 men, but cutting it down further when taking into account: apache helicopters, radars, spy-planes and time it takes to get there.
The conspiracy do train attack-birds

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Death-T

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Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #473 on: April 30, 2010, 04:04:02 PM »
He is saying the wall is guarded by 652 men, but cutting it down further when taking into account: apache helicopters, radars, spy-planes and time it takes to get there.

That blows his orignal estimate straight out of the water. - A single Apche Helicopter would cost around 15 mil. right off the bat.... and don't get me started on radar installations.

Not to mention that these installions would be open to third-party discovery.... it would be utterly impossible to gaurd the "Ice Wall" to the degree needed for not a single third-party to get a picture of them or what is beyond it.

Gotta love those tin-hatters!
" Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. " - Albert Einstein

" We are imperfect.  We cannot expect perfect government. "  ~William Howard Taft

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Catchpa

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Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #474 on: May 04, 2010, 03:22:13 PM »
For christ sake, move this piece of shit out of the god damn FAQ.
The conspiracy do train attack-birds

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #475 on: May 04, 2010, 03:49:51 PM »
For christ sake, move this piece of shit out of the god damn FAQ.

Lol, yeah, I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree.  No active member even endorses the theory of the Ice Wall guards, anyway.

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markjo

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Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #476 on: May 04, 2010, 04:07:16 PM »
He is saying the wall is guarded by 652 men, but cutting it down further when taking into account: apache helicopters, radars, spy-planes and time it takes to get there.

That blows his orignal estimate straight out of the water. - A single Apche Helicopter would cost around 15 mil. right off the bat.... and don't get me started on radar installations.

Not to mention the maintenance and support personnel required to keep it running. 
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #477 on: October 22, 2010, 01:22:25 PM »
The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium

Okay. There has been way too many threads asking about the same damned question, and too many people saying that the governments can't pull together a conspiracy as such, and what not. This will conclusively prove that it is entirely plausible, profitable and, hopefully, probable. Expect me to reference this any time you ask a stupid question about the conspiracy again.


Maybe, maybe not.

Quote


First Topic:
How Can They Afford the Conspiracy?


Bribes
Let's look at this liberally (keep in mind these are probably near maximized estimates). Who actually kneeds to know?


Basically everybody.

Quote

Who DOES Need to Know:
NASA -- Okay, so the top three (at most) need to know, we'll say. These are the guys who actually are controlling the conspiracy, and maybe some of the profit is divided amongst them, but they don't need to be bribed to shut their mouths, and thus have no leverage amongst the others. If we say about three other people in NASA know about it, who are helping with image editing, video editing, and general coverage, but working closely with the top three.


No, more than that.  The scientists and engineers would either have to know or would have to somehow be left out.  Either fail:

If they're in on it, then the conspiracy becomes far too large to try and keep a secret.  I have a hard enough time trying to tell a secret to one person and not having it leak; telling it to thousands of people would be a secret that's practically impossible to keep.

If they aren't, then that defeats the entire purpose of the conspiracy.  The funding that according to the conspiracy theory the higher ups don't actually spend on a spaceship but instead for themselves would be needed to make a space ship.  They can't simply make a model one because the scientists and engineers believe that they're making an actual one and would demand actual materials and such.  Therefore, the conspirators would end up having to give all the materials needed to build a space ship, so they actually build one, and therefore don't have any money left, and the purpose of the conspiracy is nullified.

Quote

RASA -- The Russians are just about equal if not more active in space exploration as the US, so we'll say these guys have six people helping out with the conspiracy as well. As a matter of fact, tag one more on, just because I'm generous. That leaves us with thirteen people.


Why would the US and USSR help eachother out?

Quote

China -- Yes, in 2003, China became the third country to independently send a manned spaceship into outer space. However, their space program isn't all that big. As a (very) liberal estimate, we'll say they need about three people. But why don't we tag on one more just to make sure I'm not cheating. That leaves us with seventeen people from the space exploration crews that need to know.


BS; once again, the scientists and engineers would have to know.

Quote

GPS Manufacturers -- I'm going to say they only need one person for this job. There's not really much to do. Machines make most of the chips, and I doubt all of the bosses of the companies need to even bother. They just need to have one guy saying, "Yup, that's right." This guy could even be one of the NASA or RASA members, honestly, but I'm being nice. This rings up to a comprehensive total of eighteen people.


BS.  I'm pretty sure that GPS manufacturing companies don't work like that.  The manufacturers won't all take their GPSs to one guy and ask for approval.

Quote

Public Relations People -- NASA or RASA conspirators could fill this role, too, but again, generosity has the better of me, and I'm going to say that the conspiracy hires people to do this, too, since the guys in the space exploration teams are filled with a bunch of pale, pimply white guys, and therefore aren't good at convincing people of the truth. We'll say they need a couple of these guys, bringing the total up to a whopping twenty people.


This part is perhaps semi reasonable.

Quote

People Who Have "Been In Space" -- Yes, they need astronauts saying, "Hey! I was up there!" But they're barely part of the conspiracy, they're just people who have a little bit of leverage, and therefore need a bit of bribing. We'll count them as half-people for this count, since they don't really count as conspirators. So, if we have somewhere around fifty people that have "been in space," that means that it counts for about twenty-five conspirators, therefore bringing our total to forty-five which is not as large as is commonly described.


Bribe them with how much?  I doubt that anything under 1 million would work; not even 1 million would work, maybe 1 billion per astronaut.  Therefore, why aren't those astronauts billionaires with their bribe money?  

Quote
Ice Wall Guards -- These guys don't need to be paid in full, either, as they're only guarding an ice wall. I believe that it was Erasmus who pulled some mathematics on this one, and showed that not that many people were needed to guard the ice wall. As they don't really have any leverage on the conspiracy, they won't count for this part (I'll go back to it later), since this is mostly about who needs to be paid to shut their mouths.


How would they hire these people?




Also, you didn't include MIT in this conspiracy.  MIT helped develop the rockets.  Were they also in on it?  MIT is available to the public as in they accept students that are good enough to get in and apply for it.  How could they keep a secret with a huge amount of students?

Quote


Who Does NOT Need To Know:

PotUS -- Why would the president need to know? All he knows is that he's giving money to what he thinks is a space exploration team, and then he sees exactly what everyone in the world sees on TV. He doesn't ever need to suspect a damned thing.


Then who's in charge of the conspiracy?  What about when those people die?  Also, Kennedy is the one who pretty much started the space program; therefore, without him the conspiracy wouldn't have any monetary gain, so was he in on it?  But the president wouldn't have to know according to you!

Quote

Members of Space Teams -- They see exactly what we see as well, but they're sitting on the ground looking at it "Live." That doesn't mean that they know that the people are actually in space, but they can make a really convincing argument towards it, perhaps.


Except that they'd have to be provided with convincing and working equipment that would work for a space mission, which basically means that the conspirators would end up spending as much money to cover it up as they'd apparently gain from it, therefore resulting in zero profit, or even a loss due to the bribes.

Quote

Conclusive Mathematics:

Basically, I'm going to assume that every single person on my list wants to get paid so that they won't talk about the conspiracy. They're going to want a lot of it, too, most likely. Probably enough so that they won't have to work for the rest of their lives? Well, how's about something like one million dollars per year, plus one million in advance. That's far better than most jobs can fetch, and all they have to do is shut up. Minus the top five or so, since they are the runners of the organization.
That brings us to 40 x 1,000,000. Forty million dollars plus forty million every year? Sure, it's plenty of cash, but NASA receives so much more money than that from just governmental funds, and while I don't know much about Russian space teams, I'm sure they do, too. They can easily pay for this, and the undernoted requirements for money, without even breaking a sweat; in fact, they'll be probably pulling a profit, just from the government giving them cash.


Then why aren't those astronauts millionares?

Quote


Maintenance:

There doesn't need to be all that much maintenance, besides damage control. The space exploration programs have maintenance funds from their respective governments, so they're all self-sufficient without having to spend excess money on maintaining the conspiracy (seeing as all the cash they're not spending on research can be spent on the conspiracy).
The only reason extra money might need to be poured into the conspiracy would be for damage control. If we say that this would cost somewhere around five million per year, that still only leaves us with forty-five million per year.


What about funding for the actual spaceship materials?

Quote

*UPDATED*
Ice Wall Guarding:

If you would take note of Erasmus's calculations as far as guards go:

Quote from: Erasmus
Supposing for a moment that the government does guard it solely by posting men on it, these men are 150 in the air. From that hight they can see at least 15 miles in every relevant direction (this of course is calculating using the RE model... on a FE they might see farther). Thus you can cover the whole wall with just 78,225/30 = 2608 men.

You can decrease it further by giving them snowmobiles and having them ride between waypoints. If they can ride 10 mph and still keep an eye on things, then in one hour one sixth the previous number -- or 652 men -- can cover the wall in an hour. In fact, doing this gives them better coverage, since this way their 15-mile-radius field of vision doesn't have any holes.

Now take the terrain into account -- much of the Ice Wall is probably unapproachable except by air -- and you can trim down the numbers even further.

Strategically locate some helicopter pads (on the wall or floating) and you can have heavy armament on the scene in thirty minutes. Assuming an Apache helicopter can fly 150 mph, in that time they could fly 75 miles, so we would need to place pads every 150 miles, requiring 521 pads. Obviously, if you don't insist on thirty-minute response time, you can do with fewer. Don't forget that the watchmen can see 15 miles away from the wall, so thirty minutes should be more than enough to intercept any boat that tries to approach, snap pictures, and sail to safety.

Of course, this is all assuming that the only means our governments have of detecting trespassers is by looking with their eyes. We're neglecting radar and high-altitude spyplanes, probably with infrared cameras.

We're also neglecting intelligence. Anybody who wants to travel to the ice wall has to leave from someplace, and these someplaces can be watched by agents as well. There aren't too many good places to set on on such a journey from. Then, such expeditions would also have to be planned, and agents could get words about them before they even start. Once they've started, agents could monitor radio transmissions. If they can discover tresspassers a thousand miles away instead of only fifteen, then maybe they don't need so big a force as you say.

Now, I'm going to take this, and say that we need about one-thousand men guarding the wall, again with two shifts each, if we include cameras, infrared, radar, intelligence, and all that good stuff. This is more than I stated previously, but bear in mind that I had been very generous with the amount those men had been paid. Now, seeing as the men practically have no influence (all they do is guard an ice wall; it's not like it's probable they have a lot of friends at all, let alone ones in high places), they don't necessarily need a very grand rate of pay. Therefore I'm dropping my previous estimate to a simple one-hundred thousand dollars per person. That still leaves us with the same amount of two-million dollars to pay for every guard in the wall forces.


You do realize that those calculations involve things that wouldn't apply to a FE, right?

Quote
CONSPIRACY MONEY TOTAL = $47,000,000 USD (Forty-Million U.S. Dollars)


Actually, the price is the price that it would have been PLUS about 47 million dollars, aka they lose 47 million dollars.







Responded to that part.  There are also 3 VERY, VERY, VERY MAJOR flaws in the conspiracy theory that practically destroy it:

1. How would the conspirators know about the "true" shape of the Earth when Gallieo, Einstein, Stephen Hawkings and modern day PHD level scientists don't?  They'd have to know before the launching of satellites for this conspiracy would work, but HOW?

2.  What about historic explorers that circumnavigated the globe and scientists and proved that the world is round?  This would predate the space program or any common knowledge that such a thing was even possible, so that would mean that this conspiracy theory would have started way before there was any need to have it.  There would be no gain for a 15th century king to fool his subjects into believing certain things about the shape of the Earth, and said king would not know and likely not care about a space program 500 years from his time.

3. Where is the proof or any hint of evidence that this conspiracy theory exists?  Even if it were plausible, that doesn't mean that it's there.  It's also plausible that this site could contain viruses, but so far it doesn't.  Proof of plausibility (which there isn't) is not equivalent to proof of existence.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 01:24:44 PM by RoundEarthGuy »

Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #478 on: October 28, 2010, 12:08:23 PM »
One of my biggest problems with the idea of a conspiracy is that it was created after a hole was discovered in FET... it was not created based on gathered evidence which pointed towards a conspiracy...  The more you add to it, the more you realize how far'fetched and pointless it really is.  Humans naturally seek truth, a conspiracy of this size simply cannot happen.

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Hessy

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Re: The Conclusive Categorical Conspiracy Compendium
« Reply #479 on: October 29, 2010, 09:31:03 AM »
Don't you think someone would notice ~~$15.7 million going to the top three NASA guys that should've gone to the actual space program?  That means not only would those three need to be involved (as well as countless others, really) but the people who do their finances.