Atheism = arrogance

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #360 on: March 25, 2015, 05:08:11 AM »
How can you have never seen Anselm? That would be as bad as me saying I'd never seen Hume. As much of an idiot as I think he was, to have never read him would have been astounding. I couldn't have a degree in Philosophy without reading him. How can you possibly claim any knowledge of philosophy without having read Anselm? Damn, son, you had to try to accomplish that.

EDIT:

I shall be offline for the next day or two whilst working on other matters. So I shall have to rejoin the argument later. Enjoy, all.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 05:44:18 AM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

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Rama Set

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #361 on: March 25, 2015, 06:54:04 AM »
How can you have never seen Anselm? That would be as bad as me saying I'd never seen Hume. As much of an idiot as I think he was, to have never read him would have been astounding. I couldn't have a degree in Philosophy without reading him. How can you possibly claim any knowledge of philosophy without having read Anselm? Damn, son, you had to try to accomplish that.

EDIT:

I shall be offline for the next day or two whilst working on other matters. So I shall have to rejoin the argument later. Enjoy, all.

I was just playing word games.  I have only read Anselm.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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The Ellimist

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #362 on: March 26, 2015, 09:57:50 PM »
Quote
The "Ham Sandwich which is greater than any that can be conceived of" argument you are so fond of has been rebutted by more than a few philosophers throughout history, so although you are fond of it, it is still a weak premise to base a belief in God on.

And never really satisfactorily rebutted, despite your constant claims to the contrary.

According to you. When you have an emotional attachment to the conclusion of the argument, you're going to be less willing to relinquish it: you should agree with that, whether or not you think the argument holds.
The ontological class of arguments can fall for several reasons. There's one set that rely on 'greatness' to be a measure of something objectively that transcends and predates even God: absurd. Then there's the like of Anselm's which tries to go from "the idea of God exists in the mind," (as ideas are all that can exist there) to "the actual God exists in reality," with no explanation: the best you could say is that 'the idea of God exists' which no one denies. Then there's a whole host which are only relevant theoretically: about as meaningful as assuming there's a biggest number, and showing that it's one (which can be done quite simply). Start with faulty assumptions, you get a wrong answer.
And not one person has ever shown a trait of the 'greatest possible...' is something as basic as sentience (and I'd argue that it's impossible to show that), even if you grant it has to exist. That renders the point moot, in any case.

Quote
But, at least we've gotten you down from atheism.

Also, outside of what is essentially technical jargon that noone speaking outside of a classroom is concerned with, atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. This has been pointed out several times. You can't force your definition on others when your definition is only meant to be used in a classroom and similarly technical settings.

Fine, I choose agnostic theism.
Additionally, we cannot entirely rule out the nefarious effects of demons, spirits, gnomes, and wizards on our society's ability to comprehend our flat earth as it really is. 

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FalseProphet

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #363 on: March 27, 2015, 07:07:18 AM »
I also found the Ontological Proof rather stupid when I first heard it. Now I do not read it as a "proof" but rather as a description what is meant by "God". Obviously it is faulty to think anything should exist by necessity only because it can be thought. The point in the OntP is, that in the case of God "essence" and "existence" means the same. You could say, the "existence" of God is categorically different than the "existence" of anything else. Again, that can't be called a "proof", it's a description. Piously spoken, you could state, that God is "beyond existence". In a more sloppy formulation, as I'm fond of (being no philosopher): By God I mean "that what exists even if it does not exist".

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Rama Set

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #364 on: March 27, 2015, 07:24:56 AM »
You could say, the "existence" of God is categorically different than the "existence" of anything else.

This strikes me as special pleading or possibly equivocating.  Existence should have a very clear definition that cannot be used to wriggle around the faults in logical premises.
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FalseProphet

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #365 on: March 27, 2015, 07:33:26 AM »
You could say, the "existence" of God is categorically different than the "existence" of anything else.

This strikes me as special pleading or possibly equivocating.  Existence should have a very clear definition that cannot be used to wriggle around the faults in logical premises.

In this case the OntP states, that God does not - and can not - exist. But it also states that God does not - and can not - non-exist.

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Rama Set

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #366 on: March 27, 2015, 07:51:43 AM »
You could say, the "existence" of God is categorically different than the "existence" of anything else.

This strikes me as special pleading or possibly equivocating.  Existence should have a very clear definition that cannot be used to wriggle around the faults in logical premises.

In this case the OntP states, that God does not - and can not - exist. But it also states that God does not - and can not - non-exist.

So it is logically incoherent then, and can be summarily dismissed as an argument for anything?
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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FalseProphet

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #367 on: March 27, 2015, 08:13:48 AM »
You could say, the "existence" of God is categorically different than the "existence" of anything else.

This strikes me as special pleading or possibly equivocating.  Existence should have a very clear definition that cannot be used to wriggle around the faults in logical premises.

In this case the OntP states, that God does not - and can not - exist. But it also states that God does not - and can not - non-exist.

So it is logically incoherent then, and can be summarily dismissed as an argument for anything?

It is logically incoherent if used and understood in the traditional sense, as a proof, because nothing that exists can exist in a way, that its existence is identical to its essence. It can thus be dismissed as an argument.

If viewed as a description it is just a poor attempt to talk in the language of finite beings like us about something that transcends our category of existence and, furthermore, our logical categories at all.

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ausGeoff

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #368 on: March 27, 2015, 10:44:24 AM »
It's meaningless to debate the "existence" of a god or gods from a logical or philosophical standpoint.  We need to get back to basics.

If you're to seriously discuss the existence or otherwise of gods, why then draw the line there?  Why not give such serious thought to the existence or otherwise of Lilith, unicorns, fairies, leprechauns, satyrs, mermaids, the Yeti, chupacabras etc.

There's actually more contemporary documented "evidence" supporting the existence of the chupacabra than there is supporting the Christian god.  One alleged chupacabra was killed recently in Nicaragua and was examined by scientists at the Autonomous National University of Nicaragua—although most scientists who've investigated alleged chupacabra sightings or findings agree that the creatures are usually terrestrial canines, often coyotes, and suffering from severe mange.  However, that doesn't alter the fact that thousands of eye witnesses in Puerto Rico, Nicaragua, Chile, and Mexico believe in their existence, with many having captured purported photographs of them.

How many people claim to have taken a snapshot of a god?

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Rama Set

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #369 on: March 27, 2015, 12:51:35 PM »
If viewed as a description it is just a poor attempt to talk in the language of finite beings like us about something that transcends our category of existence and, furthermore, our logical categories at all.

I don't even understand what "our category of existence" means.  Is it not a binary choice?
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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FalseProphet

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #370 on: March 27, 2015, 01:36:11 PM »
If viewed as a description it is just a poor attempt to talk in the language of finite beings like us about something that transcends our category of existence and, furthermore, our logical categories at all.

I don't even understand what "our category of existence" means.  Is it not a binary choice?

I don't even understand what "existence" means. Maybe you can help me?

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Vauxhall

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #371 on: March 27, 2015, 01:56:00 PM »
What an existential question, Prophet.

ex·ist·ence
iɡˈzistəns/

noun
the fact or state of living or having objective reality.
"the plane was the oldest Boeing remaining in existence"


continued survival.
"she helped to keep the company alive when its very existence was threatened"
synonyms:   actuality, being, existing, reality; More


a way of living.
plural noun: existences
"living in a city was more expensive than a rural existence"
synonyms:   way of life, way of living, life, lifestyle
"her suburban existence"


Pick one.
Read the FAQS.

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ausGeoff

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #372 on: March 27, 2015, 02:02:35 PM »
I don't even understand what "existence" means. Maybe you can help me?

As far as humans are concerned, "existence" describes the actuality of our physical being—our blood and bones.  Whilst we're alive (or recently deceased) our existence continues:  when we're cremated, our existence ceases to be.

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The Ellimist

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #373 on: March 29, 2015, 09:16:26 PM »
What if a God had been created/ had evolved?
Additionally, we cannot entirely rule out the nefarious effects of demons, spirits, gnomes, and wizards on our society's ability to comprehend our flat earth as it really is. 

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FalseProphet

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #374 on: March 29, 2015, 09:44:45 PM »
What if a God had been created/ had evolved?

That's what Mormons think. Or Pagans. Or Frank Tipler. Actually everybody who is not a Jew, Christian, Moslem or Atheist.

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The Ellimist

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #375 on: March 30, 2015, 03:52:44 AM »
What if a God had been created/ had evolved?

That's what Mormons think. Or Pagans. Or Frank Tipler. Actually everybody who is not a Jew, Christian, Moslem or Atheist.

Remember, atheists don't actually reject the idea of God, they just strongly doubt it ;D
Additionally, we cannot entirely rule out the nefarious effects of demons, spirits, gnomes, and wizards on our society's ability to comprehend our flat earth as it really is. 

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ausGeoff

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #376 on: March 30, 2015, 05:51:35 AM »
Remember, atheists don't actually reject the idea of God, they just strongly doubt it.

Nope.  One cannot "doubt" something that doesn't exist.  Nobody can doubt the idea of unicorns; that presupposes that unicorns might exist.

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FalseProphet

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #377 on: March 30, 2015, 06:11:01 AM »
Geoff adheres to the Australian version of Atheism. It's the most radical. Even an imagined God does not exist.

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ausGeoff

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #378 on: March 30, 2015, 06:47:14 AM »
Geoff adheres to the Australian version of Atheism. It's the most radical. Even an imagined God does not exist.

Absolutely correct.  Imaginary entities—such as the Christian god—exist only as conceptualised in the individual's mind.

Adherents.com claims to have figures for 4,200 religious groups currently existing on earth, which means every Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu etc rejects 4,199 gods.  Atheists reject one more.


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FalseProphet

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #379 on: March 30, 2015, 07:48:31 AM »
Thus he goes forth and bears witness.

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Rama Set

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #380 on: March 30, 2015, 08:38:42 AM »
Geoff adheres to the Australian version of Atheism. It's the most radical. Even an imagined God does not exist.

Absolutely correct.  Imaginary entities—such as the Christian god—exist only as conceptualised in the individual's mind.

Adherents.com claims to have figures for 4,200 religious groups currently existing on earth, which means every Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu etc rejects 4,199 gods.  Atheists reject one more.

Hindus likely accept all the other gods and just incorporate them in to their already massive pantheon; Christians, Muslims and Jews accept each other's gods; many Buddhists do not practice a deific religion; etc...
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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Slemon

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #381 on: March 30, 2015, 08:41:21 AM »
Hindus likely accept all the other gods and just incorporate them in to their already massive pantheon; Christians, Muslims and Jews accept each other's gods; many Buddhists do not practice a deific religion; etc...

Plus some sects of Christianity etc hold that the other polytheistic Gods exist, they're just demons who trick people. (Because Satan has nothing better to do than stop people eating beef).
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #382 on: March 30, 2015, 05:10:06 PM »
Remember, atheists don't actually reject the idea of God, they just strongly doubt it.

Nope.  One cannot "doubt" something that doesn't exist.  Nobody can doubt the idea of unicorns; that presupposes that unicorns might exist.

How can you say with certainty that at least one unicorn doesn't exist?

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Socratic Amusement

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #383 on: March 30, 2015, 06:15:34 PM »
Remember, atheists don't actually reject the idea of God, they just strongly doubt it.

Nope.  One cannot "doubt" something that doesn't exist.  Nobody can doubt the idea of unicorns; that presupposes that unicorns might exist.

How can you say with certainty that at least one unicorn doesn't exist?

A lack of any evidence over the entirety of the human history, and the mapping/exploration of the entire planet which gives the hypothetical Unicorn nowhere left to "be discovered."
"As for me, all I know is that I know nothing."

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Rama Set

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #384 on: March 30, 2015, 06:32:31 PM »
Remember, atheists don't actually reject the idea of God, they just strongly doubt it.

Nope.  One cannot "doubt" something that doesn't exist.  Nobody can doubt the idea of unicorns; that presupposes that unicorns might exist.

How can you say with certainty that at least one unicorn doesn't exist?

A lack of any evidence over the entirety of the human history, and the mapping/exploration of the entire planet which gives the hypothetical Unicorn nowhere left to "be discovered."
Disagree. AusGeoff can say that because he is AusGeoff and you aren't.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #385 on: March 30, 2015, 06:42:07 PM »
Remember, atheists don't actually reject the idea of God, they just strongly doubt it.

Nope.  One cannot "doubt" something that doesn't exist.  Nobody can doubt the idea of unicorns; that presupposes that unicorns might exist.

How can you say with certainty that at least one unicorn doesn't exist?

Geoff is going to shit if the existence of G-d is one day proved.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether G-d's existence can be proved or not. The question itself is an irrelevancy. The question to answer is the following, to wit:

Does following Torah and Mitzvot (Law and Commandments) make for better people or worse people?

That is the only question. This does NOT pose questions about politics, or the current nation-state known as Medinat Israel, or the region known in English as the "Palestinian Territories", or to anything even remotely related to that. Ignoring all of that for the moment, and all the emotional baggage that it carries, let us repeat the question, to wit:

Does following Torah and Mitzvot (Law and Commandments) make for better people or worse people?

Well, lets see. Lets look at the lives of Observant Jews and Secular Jews, and how they are perceived by non-Jews. Secular Jews all too often are perceived as controlling the media, being involved in unsavoury aspects of it, being behind some of the most distasteful aspects of society generally speaking. Now, I am not going to say that that is universally true. I have known some Secular Jews that are decent people, and all of those unsavoury things have Gentiles involved in them as well. Lets be fair.

Observant Jews, on the other hand, generally will not even watch television and film, let alone be involved in the business of making it, whether it be wholesome or not. Generally, Observant Jews tend to try to be left alone for the most part. I'll admit there are exceptions to that in areas where there are large concentrations of them, where sometimes they affect the political decisions of a County or Municipality, or occasionally even a portion of a State. In their defence I can say that generally they are only trying to obtain benefits for their own community, and not usually harm anyone else, but from the other side, sometimes the other side does get affected, fairly or not.

But, aside from all that, again, just to answer the question, lets look at an individual, just one person who chooses to make Baal Teshuvah (The Master of Return), ie, a Secular Jew who becomes Observant, which is actually happening in quite large numbers throughout the United States and Israel today.

Does such a person have a better life or a worse life? Are they better people or worse people?

Well, it depends on how you define terms. But, certainly by social indicators, the Baalim Teshuvim and other Observant Jews have fewer divorces, fewer problems with issues like drug abuse, alcoholism, STDs, incarceration, etc etc, than Secular Jews in America. No, I do not have sources for this information, it is simply something a Jew knows because he knows his community.

Now, does any of this give a proof for the existence of G-d? No. Nor was that the intent. All I intended to do was indicate that living according to the Laws that we believe G-d gave us seems to result in decent people that tend to avoid getting into social or legal trouble more frequently than the general population, both Gentile and Secular Jewish.

So you know, even if G-d didn't exist, even if Moses was a complete fictitious character, (not that I believe either thought), the Torah is still full of pretty good advice on how to live one's life.

And let it be noted for the record, we are not talking about crime and punishment here. I am not suggesting that we kill homosexuals, or execute people for working on Sabbath, or etc. Following the rules is a wise idea, but I think we have evolved somewhat past the need for the rather interesting Bronze Age punishments that were issued to people. I'll leave that kind of savage crap to the Arabs. They still do that kind of thing. I mean, they are still in the business of chopping hands off for theft, and lashes for insulting religion, and other 7th Century punishments as dictated in the Qur'an.

I would hope that our society, Jewish or otherwise, is a bit beyond that.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 06:49:08 PM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

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FalseProphet

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #386 on: March 30, 2015, 07:33:01 PM »
[quote author=Yaakov ben Avraham link=topic=62963.msg1676046#msg1676046

Does following Torah and Mitzvot (Law and Commandments) make for better people or worse people?

That is the only question. This does NOT pose questions about politics, or the current nation-state known as Medinat Israel, or the region known in English as the "Palestinian Territories", or to anything even remotely related to that. Ignoring all of that for the moment, and all the emotional baggage that it carries, let us repeat the question, to wit:

Does following Torah and Mitzvot (Law and Commandments) make for better people or worse people?

Well, lets see. Lets look at the lives of Observant Jews and Secular Jews, and how they are perceived by non-Jews. Secular Jews all too often are perceived as controlling the media, being involved in unsavoury aspects of it, being behind some of the most distasteful aspects of society generally speaking. Now, I am not going to say that that is universally true. I have known some Secular Jews that are decent people, and all of those unsavoury things have Gentiles involved in them as well. Lets be fair.

Observant Jews, on the other hand, generally will not even watch television and film, let alone be involved in the business of making it, whether it be wholesome or not. Generally, Observant Jews tend to try to be left alone for the most part. I'll admit there are exceptions to that in areas where there are large concentrations of them, where sometimes they affect the political decisions of a County or Municipality, or occasionally even a portion of a State. In their defence I can say that generally they are only trying to obtain benefits for their own community, and not usually harm anyone else, but from the other side, sometimes the other side does get affected, fairly or not.

But, aside from all that, again, just to answer the question, lets look at an individual, just one person who chooses to make Baal Teshuvah (The Master of Return), ie, a Secular Jew who becomes Observant, which is actually happening in quite large numbers throughout the United States and Israel today.

Does such a person have a better life or a worse life? Are they better people or worse people?

Well, it depends on how you define terms. But, certainly by social indicators, the Baalim Teshuvim and other Observant Jews have fewer divorces, fewer problems with issues like drug abuse, alcoholism, STDs, incarceration, etc etc, than Secular Jews in America. No, I do not have sources for this information, it is simply something a Jew knows because he knows his community.

[/quote]

On the other hand if you see an observant jew with scared eyes hasten to the tramway on Fryday night, because he cannot use it after Sabbath has begun, it is hart to understand the difference between him and a looney.

Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #387 on: March 30, 2015, 08:18:05 PM »
Quote from: Yaakov ben Avraham link=topic=62963.msg1676046#msg1676046


Does following Torah and Mitzvot (Law and Commandments) make for better people or worse people?

That is the only question. This does NOT pose questions about politics, or the current nation-state known as Medinat Israel, or the region known in English as the "Palestinian Territories", or to anything even remotely related to that. Ignoring all of that for the moment, and all the emotional baggage that it carries, let us repeat the question, to wit:

Does following Torah and Mitzvot (Law and Commandments) make for better people or worse people?

Well, lets see. Lets look at the lives of Observant Jews and Secular Jews, and how they are perceived by non-Jews. Secular Jews all too often are perceived as controlling the media, being involved in unsavoury aspects of it, being behind some of the most distasteful aspects of society generally speaking. Now, I am not going to say that that is universally true. I have known some Secular Jews that are decent people, and all of those unsavoury things have Gentiles involved in them as well. Lets be fair.

Observant Jews, on the other hand, generally will not even watch television and film, let alone be involved in the business of making it, whether it be wholesome or not. Generally, Observant Jews tend to try to be left alone for the most part. I'll admit there are exceptions to that in areas where there are large concentrations of them, where sometimes they affect the political decisions of a County or Municipality, or occasionally even a portion of a State. In their defence I can say that generally they are only trying to obtain benefits for their own community, and not usually harm anyone else, but from the other side, sometimes the other side does get affected, fairly or not.

But, aside from all that, again, just to answer the question, lets look at an individual, just one person who chooses to make Baal Teshuvah (The Master of Return), ie, a Secular Jew who becomes Observant, which is actually happening in quite large numbers throughout the United States and Israel today.

Does such a person have a better life or a worse life? Are they better people or worse people?

Well, it depends on how you define terms. But, certainly by social indicators, the Baalim Teshuvim and other Observant Jews have fewer divorces, fewer problems with issues like drug abuse, alcoholism, STDs, incarceration, etc etc, than Secular Jews in America. No, I do not have sources for this information, it is simply something a Jew knows because he knows his community.


On the other hand if you see an observant jew with scared eyes hasten to the tramway on Fryday night, because he cannot use it after Sabbath has begun, it is hart to understand the difference between him and a looney.

On the other hand, I have never met an Observant Jew being fearful to use the tram after Sabbath has begun. I have met them in a hurry to avoid its use after Sabbath has begun, yes. Just as I avoid using the phone after the beginning of the Sabbath, and have a voice mail take my calls for that purpose, telling people to call back after the Sabbath. I set the phone to silent, and don't pay attention to it. I do have a special Sabbath Phone such that about 6 people have the number. If they call it, that means its a dire emergency and I'd better answer it. If someone calls and its not a dire emergency, I will personally be in the business of ripping their head off (after Sabbath of course; it hasn't happened yet).

Its all about respect, that is all.

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FalseProphet

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #388 on: March 30, 2015, 08:51:09 PM »

On the other hand, I have never met an Observant Jew being fearful to use the tram after Sabbath has begun. I have met them in a hurry to avoid its use after Sabbath has begun, yes. Just as I avoid using the phone after the beginning of the Sabbath, and have a voice mail take my calls for that purpose, telling people to call back after the Sabbath. I set the phone to silent, and don't pay attention to it. I do have a special Sabbath Phone such that about 6 people have the number. If they call it, that means its a dire emergency and I'd better answer it. If someone calls and its not a dire emergency, I will personally be in the business of ripping their head off (after Sabbath of course; it hasn't happened yet).

Its all about respect, that is all.

It was clearly an ultraorthodox one.

It was Freud who first pointed out the similarities between neurosis and ritual observation. Although he wrote only about "primitives" his statements can be applied to any religions.

I do not have hate against religion, but I can't say that I have much respect either.

Spirituality is all about personal experience. And about that it is better not to talk about. Not everything can be shared.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 08:55:14 PM by FalseProphet »

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The Ellimist

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #389 on: March 30, 2015, 09:42:32 PM »
Remember, atheists don't actually reject the idea of God, they just strongly doubt it.

Nope.  One cannot "doubt" something that doesn't exist.  Nobody can doubt the idea of unicorns; that presupposes that unicorns might exist.

Sarcasm.
Additionally, we cannot entirely rule out the nefarious effects of demons, spirits, gnomes, and wizards on our society's ability to comprehend our flat earth as it really is.