Atheism = arrogance

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Vauxhall

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Atheism = arrogance
« on: February 28, 2015, 10:27:20 AM »
This topic is pretty simple, so there won't be much in the body of this post.

Atheism is an arrogant mindset. How can anyone be certain that absolutely nothing exists beyond the physical realm? It is just as illogical as any religion, and makes just as many outrageous claims. Does it not take just as much blind faith to exclaim that Gods do not exist? I am not a religious person, but from what I've observed it seems like atheism is closer to any religion than agnosticism. Complete with self-inflated worth and hubris. If you are a free-thinking person who considers yourself scientifically-inclined, why exclaim that something doesn't exist when you really have no evidence either way? Agnosticism seems like the best option. Simply put, there could be a realm of magical all-loving unicats that created the universe by spitting up galactic hairballs and you would not know either way... so why claim that nothing exists? I get that there is no evidence for the existence of gods, but that does not necessarily mean that there is no God. God could simply be beyond our physical realm, or in another dimension that we have not been able to detect yet with modern science, or simply way far out on another planet. Or maybe he's legitimately a big guy in the clouds with a beard and a whapass stick that we simply cannot detect for whatever reason. We are not the paragon of scientific excellence. We are making advances in science every day. Who's to say that we don't discover a way to communicate with God/s many years in the future? Tomorrow, someone could find the God wavelength and you'd all shit your pants.

Who knows? No one really. So claiming that you do know with 100% certainty (which is the definition of atheism) is absolutely arrogant and, frankly, fucking stupid.

tl;dr: atheism is a blind faith assertion that excludes the possibility that you could be wrong. It is very arrogant and anti-logical. If you are a pursuer of knowledge then agnosticism is far more logical than atheism.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 10:29:34 AM by Vauxhall »
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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2015, 12:39:38 PM »
Well, VAUXY, there is Weak Atheism, and Strong Atheism. Weak Atheism poses that G-d could logically exist, but doesn't. Strong Atheism poses that G-d could not even logically exist, that to even discuss the existence of G-d is like discussing the existence of a married bachelor.

Frankly, I am inclined to agree with you. I think it takes far more faith to be an atheist than it does to be a religious person, and you are right that being agnostic is the easiest of the three choices by far. "I do not know, and thus I shall  not worship," is a pretty simple philosophy to follow. It is not one with which I am in agreement, but I understand it.

I think, although I have never had it put this way, that you might find the same categories of theists. Weak theists might be inclined to believe that G-d exists, but acknowledge that in another world, he might logically not exist. Strong theists would deny even the possibility that G-d could not exist, and regard discussing it as the utmost blasphemy, and consider it to make as much sense as talking about a married bachelor.

Personally, I would put myself in between the two. I can conceive of  world WITHOUT a being a greater than which cannot possibly be conceived. HOWEVER, and this is the key word, there would still, in my mind, have to be very powerful beings that could create us, ie, gods and goddesses along the lines of the Greek or the Norse or the Celtic type pagan pantheons. "Stuff" just does not happen from nothing. Something has to be around to create "stuff".

Now, you know my views, as often as we've debated them with each other. But that might expand on my thought patterns a bit for you.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 12:42:45 PM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2015, 01:30:06 PM »
No, but atheists can, in the name of State Atheism, manage to kill about 100 million people. I've already cited that. In Russia in 1916 there were thousands of Russian Orthodox Churches functioning. By 1924 or so, there were 4. In Tibet in 1959, there 6,000 Lamaseries. By 1976, there were 8. In Albania, there were hundreds of Catholic, Orthodox, and Muslim religious houses in 1946. By 1967, there were NONE, and possession of a Bible or a Qur'an would get you shot as an Enemy of the State.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 01:35:25 PM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2015, 01:43:31 PM »
I see little difference between the two. Both represent the extreme hubris of the human race, in each case one human arrogating to himself the right to decide who lives and who dies, the one saying that his god made the choice, and the other saying that he himself made the choice. What is the difference? Dead is dead.

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Vauxhall

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2015, 02:16:35 PM »
I see little difference between the two. Both represent the extreme hubris of the human race, in each case one human arrogating to himself the right to decide who lives and who dies, the one saying that his god made the choice, and the other saying that he himself made the choice. What is the difference? Dead is dead.

the difference :

one is evil murder ,

the second is evil murder and hypocritical

the two are full of shit

What the hell are you doing in this thread, healthy earth? I have no patience for simple minded trolls who cannot form a proper sentence or even use puncuation properly.


This is a philosophical thread about the advantages of agnosticism over atheism. It's not about evil murder or Muslims. If you have something to add about the topic at hand, go for it, but otherwise please shut the hell up.


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Now that that is out of the way. I don't understand how one can be a "weak atheist". Wouldn't that just be agnostic? If you're willing to admit that there is a slight possiblity that God/s exist, then that makes you an agnostic. I feel like all these different categories just confuse the issue.

An atheist does not believe in gods. An agnostic believes it's a possibility. A theist believes in gods. I don't see how there is any room for middle ground here. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You either accept the possibility or dismiss it.
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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2015, 02:45:22 PM »
Now that that is out of the way. I don't understand how one can be a "weak atheist". Wouldn't that just be agnostic? If you're willing to admit that there is a slight possiblity that God/s exist, then that makes you an agnostic. I feel like all these different categories just confuse the issue.

An atheist does not believe in gods. An agnostic believes it's a possibility. A theist believes in gods. I don't see how there is any room for middle ground here. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You either accept the possibility or dismiss it.

Well, a weak atheist is unlike the agnostic in that he still denies the existence of G-d, whereas the agnostic says that G-d may in fact exist or may not.

I know it sounds like a think gradation to the point of being almost stupid, but in philosophy, you have to make those gradations, or the issues DO get confused.

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Slemon

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2015, 03:12:14 PM »
Generally people use 'atheism' and 'agnosticism' as answers to different questions: they aren't mutually exclusive. It's yet another issue which gets messy due to the number of definitions floating around.

If you're using a spectrum from atheist, through agnostic, to theist, then you'd be right: but you'd need to concede that not everyone is going to use the same definition as you. Generally, the two questions are "What do you know?" and "What do you believe?"
If you do not know, you're agnostic: and if you do not believe, you're an atheist.
This sets up four possibilities. Agnostic atheist, agnostic theist, gnostic atheist, gnostic theist.
Respectively:
  • Does not know for certain, but believes there is no God
  • Does not know for certain, but believes there is a God
  • Knows there is no God
  • Knows there is a God

Gnostic atheist or theist is the arrogant claim of certainty. Generally, 'atheist' is used as shorthand for 'agnostic atheist' however: that's just a quirk of language. Whether or not it's a good one, that's just what people tend to mean. As a caveat however, there are some deities about which it is reasonable to be a gnostic atheist: for example, the classical Greek pantheon. We've climbed Olympus, no Zeus there: and while it's possible to redefine and say "They're not on this plane," or "They're on Olympus on Mars!" or something, that's not the point: the rigidly defined "They live in a palace atop Olympus," is debunked, so it is fair to be certain when it comes to that particular kind. Other, similar ones there's no way to firmly disprove: but you're not going to believe in them.
Then you get into 'tooth fairy agnostics' (don't know for certain, but believe God is as likely as the also unfalsifiable tooth fairy), and 'teapot agnostics' (similar, after Russell's Teapot).

Long story short: definitions vary. Atheism is only arrogant when you treat it as something with no overlap with agnosticism, but you need to acknowledge that people aren't bound by your definitions.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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Vauxhall

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2015, 03:14:39 PM »
Atheism is only arrogant when you treat it as something with no overlap with agnosticism, but you need to acknowledge that people aren't bound by your definitions.

These aren't my definitions.
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Slemon

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2015, 03:15:20 PM »
Atheism is only arrogant when you treat it as something with no overlap with agnosticism, but you need to acknowledge that people aren't bound by your definitions.

These aren't my definitions.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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Vauxhall

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2015, 03:16:16 PM »
These are not my definitions.
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Pongo

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2015, 04:14:57 PM »
This is pretty true. I'm super arrogant and an athiest. I believe that there is a god as much as I believe unicorns frolic on Jupiter's moon Io. That being said, unicorns could live there and there could be a god, but it's just super unlikely and has never been demonstrated.

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Vauxhall

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2015, 04:17:01 PM »
This is pretty true. I'm super arrogant and an athiest. I believe that there is a god as much as I believe unicorns frolic on Jupiter's moon Io. That being said, unicorns could live there and there could be a god, but it's just super unlikely and has never been demonstrated.

You sound like an agnostic to me.
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Pongo

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2015, 05:00:39 PM »
This is pretty true. I'm super arrogant and an athiest. I believe that there is a god as much as I believe unicorns frolic on Jupiter's moon Io. That being said, unicorns could live there and there could be a god, but it's just super unlikely and has never been demonstrated.

You sound like an agnostic to me.

There is no God. If you want to say that my allowing for the ultra-remote possibility of there being a god because I cannot prove a negative makes me agnostic, then I suppose this is a semantics debate.

Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2015, 05:07:32 PM »
I would call PONGO a very religious man.

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Scroto Gaggins

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2015, 05:09:02 PM »
This is pretty true. I'm super arrogant and an athiest. I believe that there is a god as much as I believe unicorns frolic on Jupiter's moon Io. That being said, unicorns could live there and there could be a god, but it's just super unlikely and has never been demonstrated.

You sound like an agnostic to me.
Dammit, the two aren't mutually exclusive.
I am a de facto atheist, in that i live my life by the assumption that there is no deity, of any form.
But if overwhelming evidence was presented for the existence of Jesus, Buddha or Thor, than i would be convinced.
You can be agnostic and an atheist at the same time
They are taking the hobbits to Isengard.

Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2015, 05:10:17 PM »
GAGGINS is less religious, in that he will allow for the option of being wrong. He is about where I am, except that I am a theist who allows for the option of being wrong.

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Vauxhall

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2015, 05:11:12 PM »
a·the·ist
ˈāTHēəst/

noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.


ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/

noun
1.
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

Pongo, which of these do you relate with more? Do you honestly believe there is a possibility that god exists? Are you just throwing in that possibility to make yourself seem less arrogant or smug? If so, you are an atheist. If you truly leave room in your worldview for the possibility of unicorns, then you are an agnostic. If this is semantics, so what. This whole forum is based around semantics.


Dammit, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

Yes they are. If you truly do not believe in gods, then you cannot say that there is a possibility that gods exist. That just doesn't make sense. It's a fallacy and you're an idiot if you think otherwise.

Bottom line, if you admit that there is even a .001% chance that god exists then you are agnostic, not atheist.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 05:15:38 PM by Vauxhall »
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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2015, 05:14:47 PM »
Much as it pains me to always be noting that VAUXY has been right a lot lately, well, he has been. And he is now. VAUXY, you suck! Damn it, don't make me change my opinion of you.   :-X

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Vauxhall

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2015, 05:18:48 PM »
Much as it pains me to always be noting that VAUXY has been right a lot lately, well, he has been. And he is now. VAUXY, you suck! Damn it, don't make me change my opinion of you.   :-X

We should get together for tea. I prefer coffee, but I'm willing to compromise.
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Rama Set

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2015, 05:20:28 PM »
I would call PONGO a very religious man.

You would be wrong.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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kman

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2015, 06:29:45 PM »
Vuaxhall, the problem with your original premise is that it basically says that you are right, and basically everyone else is wrong. Is that not arrogant?
Quote from: Excelsior John
[USA TODAY and NPR] are probaley just a bunch of flippin wite sapremist websites you RASCIST
Quote from: modestman
i don't understand what you are saying=therfore you are liar

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Vauxhall

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2015, 06:42:53 PM »
Vuaxhall, the problem with your original premise is that it basically says that you are right, and basically everyone else is wrong. Is that not arrogant?

I am merely going by the universal definitions of atheism and agnosticism. My contention is that you can only be one or the other. Arrogance was just a buzzword I added to generate clicks. I am quite arrogant, I suppose, but I am also not an atheist.

The real premise of this thread is debunking terms like "agnostic atheist" and the like, because those two words mixed seems like an oxymoron to me. Are they not?
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kman

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2015, 06:51:45 PM »
The real premise of this thread is debunking terms like "agnostic atheist" and the like, because those two words mixed seems like an oxymoron to me. Are they not?

I see. I would have to agree with you then.
Quote from: Excelsior John
[USA TODAY and NPR] are probaley just a bunch of flippin wite sapremist websites you RASCIST
Quote from: modestman
i don't understand what you are saying=therfore you are liar

Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2015, 07:08:13 PM »
Much as it pains me to always be noting that VAUXY has been right a lot lately, well, he has been. And he is now. VAUXY, you suck! Damn it, don't make me change my opinion of you.   :-X

We should get together for tea. I prefer coffee, but I'm willing to compromise.

I'll take that coffee also. Black. And quite strong, please. None of that watered down restaurant piss-water, thank you. *GRIN*

HEALTHY EARTH, you're just an ass. I mean, I despise Muslims almost as much as you do, and probably for better reasons than you do. But you are the most bloody-minded fool I've ever met, and that's saying something on these boards, because there's a lot of fools on these boards. You take the taco, man. Asswipe.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 07:12:26 PM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

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Scroto Gaggins

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2015, 07:13:00 PM »
a·the·ist
ˈāTHēəst/

noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.


ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/

noun
1.
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

Pongo, which of these do you relate with more? Do you honestly believe there is a possibility that god exists? Are you just throwing in that possibility to make yourself seem less arrogant or smug? If so, you are an atheist. If you truly leave room in your worldview for the possibility of unicorns, then you are an agnostic. If this is semantics, so what. This whole forum is based around semantics.


Dammit, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

Yes they are. If you truly do not believe in gods, then you cannot say that there is a possibility that gods exist. That just doesn't make sense. It's a fallacy and you're an idiot if you think otherwise.

Bottom line, if you admit that there is even a .001% chance that god exists then you are agnostic, not atheist.

Well, no.
You just said that being an atheist can also mean jut lacking belief in a god or gods.
That i do. i do lack belief.
But i also retain the notion that if a deity did have overwhelming evidence in their favour, than i would change my beliefs.
And Yaakov, please, Scroto is fine
They are taking the hobbits to Isengard.

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kman

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2015, 07:17:28 PM »
But i also retain the notion that if a deity did have overwhelming evidence in their favour, than i would change my beliefs.

If there was a overwhelming proof of a deity, I would still not worship it. That's why I consider myself an antitheist.

This is off topic, but Yakkov, what's your opinion on the Mosaic Law's avocation of stoning?
Quote from: Excelsior John
[USA TODAY and NPR] are probaley just a bunch of flippin wite sapremist websites you RASCIST
Quote from: modestman
i don't understand what you are saying=therfore you are liar

Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2015, 07:25:54 PM »
This is off topic, but Yakkov, what's your opinion on the Mosaic Law's avocation of stoning?

For the time and place, that was the appropriate punishment. However, I would NOT advocate the use of such punishments today, nor have I met a Jew that would. Even the most Orthodox Jews I know, who advocate a Torah Observant State (which is Israel is not and never has been, although there is a move afoot to make it an officially Jewish State with Jewish Law being the 'inspiration for all legislation") would not advocate that kind of batshit craziness. Law codes exist for a reason, and part of nature of law codes is that they evolve. That is true of anything decent.

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Lemmiwinks

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2015, 07:26:54 PM »
one thing is sure :

an atheist can not commit murder and blame it on his god like we can see everyday on the news .

evil people can take the word GOD , and make him say whatever they want .

when i heard that one of them was like a pimp , making promises of 70 whores in his paradise ,

 i saw there is no limit for disturbed and corrupted people to make believe ,

only to have power on the others .

what a man made mess , washing their hands with the blood of the innocent .

this is the darkest arrogance against life itself .

You dumb turd. Ok, I'll remake my post, but I'll do it in the only way you seem to be able to relate to the world, other people's gifs.



Wait... Where are the religions that caused all that death?

Ooooh, right. Its humans that are dicks, not religions themselves.
I have 13 [academic qualifications] actually. I'll leave it up to you to guess which, or simply call me a  liar. Either is fine.

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Vauxhall

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2015, 07:28:42 PM »
Scrotto, why are you referring to yourself in the third person? I think I might know why.

Anyways, when you say "well, no"... What do you mean? Are you saying that agnosticism and atheisim are mutually exclusive or not?

And Lemmi, I think you solved the case with that last sentence.
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kman

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Re: Atheism = arrogance
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2015, 07:29:01 PM »
This is off topic, but Yakkov, what's your opinion on the Mosaic Law's avocation of stoning?

For the time and place, that was the appropriate punishment

So do you think that there was a time in which people deserved to be stoned to death for lying about their virginity? Or sleeping with someone of the same sex?
Quote from: Excelsior John
[USA TODAY and NPR] are probaley just a bunch of flippin wite sapremist websites you RASCIST
Quote from: modestman
i don't understand what you are saying=therfore you are liar