Is Kansas flat?

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Is Kansas flat?
« on: February 04, 2015, 04:38:20 PM »
If one was to drive I-70 across Kansas, would one expect it to be flat?  The elevation at the Colorado border is 1180m and the elevation at Kansas City is 280m so certainly it is not level.  Still, it could be 'flat', just sloped.  What if while driving I-70, one recorded their GPS position and at the same time took measurements from an aircraft altimeter.  Would the height position from GPS more or less match the height according to the altimeter?  If that is the case, could you say GPS altitude is real -- it is the same value obtained from air pressure after all.  And if all these heights just showed a gentle slope from east to west with no real curvature, would that mean that Kansas is actually flat?  Remember, GPS positions are in WGS-84.  Here it is broken down:

A: Does GPS height match altimeter height across Kansas (along I-70 running east/west)?
B: Would the height measurements show a gentle drop from 1180m to 280m?
C: Would no curvature in WGS-84 heights mean that Kansas is flat?

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2015, 05:22:28 PM »
It has already been scientifically proven that Kansas is flatter than a pancake.  Perhaps you should rethink this debate topic. 

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Rama Set

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Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2015, 06:36:59 PM »
It has already been scientifically proven that Kansas is flatter than a pancake.  Perhaps you should rethink this debate topic.

Flatter than a pancake but not perfectly flat. The source of the map of Kansas was the US geological survey who are heavily involved in geodesy. Part of the conspiracy??
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Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2015, 06:41:01 PM »
Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.

Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2015, 07:00:02 PM »
Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.
fund raise & build a level trough a mile long or even a 1/4 mile long.fill it with water & see if you can find this curvitur.
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sokarul

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Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2015, 07:03:00 PM »
Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.
fund raise & build a level trough a mile long or even a 1/4 mile long.fill it with water & see if you can find this curvitur.
Water will conform to gravity.
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Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2015, 07:04:21 PM »
Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.

I think you are mistaking 8 inches after the first mile with 8 inches per mile.  They do not mean the same thing. 

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sokarul

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Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2015, 07:09:56 PM »
Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.

I think you are mistaking 8 inches after the first mile with 8 inches per mile.  They do not mean the same thing.
He is 29silhouette not sceptic, he knows what he is talking about.
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Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2015, 07:13:26 PM »
Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.

I think you are mistaking 8 inches after the first mile with 8 inches per mile.  They do not mean the same thing.
He is 29silhouette not sceptic, he knows what he is talking about.

So, you agree with him that the Earth drops at 8 in. per mile?

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sokarul

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Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2015, 07:17:29 PM »
Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.

I think you are mistaking 8 inches after the first mile with 8 inches per mile.  They do not mean the same thing.
He is 29silhouette not sceptic, he knows what he is talking about.

So, you agree with him that the Earth drops at 8 in. per mile?
That isn't what he said or implied.
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Orifiel

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Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2015, 07:20:58 PM »
Flat as Sceptimatic's head

OP: Jroa, 29silhouette wasn't saying the earth drops that fast, he said Kansas does.

What's the point of this post? I'd like to comment and rage a bit
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Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2015, 07:23:17 PM »
Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.

I think you are mistaking 8 inches after the first mile with 8 inches per mile.  They do not mean the same thing.
He is 29silhouette not sceptic, he knows what he is talking about.

So, you agree with him that the Earth drops at 8 in. per mile?
That isn't what he said or implied.

Perhaps you just need a remedial reading class or a little tutorial help. 

Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.

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sokarul

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Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2015, 07:24:27 PM »
Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.

I think you are mistaking 8 inches after the first mile with 8 inches per mile.  They do not mean the same thing.
He is 29silhouette not sceptic, he knows what he is talking about.

So, you agree with him that the Earth drops at 8 in. per mile?
That isn't what he said or implied.

Perhaps you just need a remedial reading class or a little tutorial help. 

Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.
So you think he said after one mile it will be 8 inches, after two miles it will be 16 inches, and so on?
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Son of Orospu

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Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2015, 07:25:53 PM »
Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.

I think you are mistaking 8 inches after the first mile with 8 inches per mile.  They do not mean the same thing.
He is 29silhouette not sceptic, he knows what he is talking about.

So, you agree with him that the Earth drops at 8 in. per mile?
That isn't what he said or implied.

Perhaps you just need a remedial reading class or a little tutorial help. 

Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.
So you think he said after one mile it will be 8 inches, after two miles it will be 16 inches, and so on?

Is that not what "per" means, or do you have a different definition than I was taught?

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sokarul

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Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2015, 07:27:22 PM »
Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.

I think you are mistaking 8 inches after the first mile with 8 inches per mile.  They do not mean the same thing.
He is 29silhouette not sceptic, he knows what he is talking about.

So, you agree with him that the Earth drops at 8 in. per mile?
That isn't what he said or implied.

Perhaps you just need a remedial reading class or a little tutorial help. 

Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.
So you think he said after one mile it will be 8 inches, after two miles it will be 16 inches, and so on?

Is that not what "per" means, or do you have a different definition than I was taught?
Per is the same thing as divided by in this instant.
8 inchs/mile
Do you know what a surface is?
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It's no slur if it's fact.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2015, 07:29:46 PM »
Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.

I think you are mistaking 8 inches after the first mile with 8 inches per mile.  They do not mean the same thing.
He is 29silhouette not sceptic, he knows what he is talking about.

So, you agree with him that the Earth drops at 8 in. per mile?
That isn't what he said or implied.

Perhaps you just need a remedial reading class or a little tutorial help. 

Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.
So you think he said after one mile it will be 8 inches, after two miles it will be 16 inches, and so on?

Is that not what "per" means, or do you have a different definition than I was taught?
Per is the same thing as divided by in this instant.
8 inchs/mile
Do you know what a surface is?

Do you not realize that the drop and distance are proportional in that statement?  How long has it been since you have had a math class?

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sokarul

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Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2015, 07:32:54 PM »
Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.

I think you are mistaking 8 inches after the first mile with 8 inches per mile.  They do not mean the same thing.
He is 29silhouette not sceptic, he knows what he is talking about.

So, you agree with him that the Earth drops at 8 in. per mile?
That isn't what he said or implied.

Perhaps you just need a remedial reading class or a little tutorial help. 

Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.
So you think he said after one mile it will be 8 inches, after two miles it will be 16 inches, and so on?

Is that not what "per" means, or do you have a different definition than I was taught?
Per is the same thing as divided by in this instant.
8 inchs/mile
Do you know what a surface is?

Do you not realize that the drop and distance are proportional in that statement?  How long has it been since you have had a math class?
Here is a giant picture of a counter top. Point to the surface as you seem to think it's a single point.
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It's no slur if it's fact.

Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2015, 07:50:54 PM »
Let me re-phrase my statement, as it seems to be confusing for some;

A constant elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving.

Now then, yes I said 8 inches per mile.  Travel 4 miles away and start measuring again, it will still be 8 inches over the next mile.  Measured from the original starting point however, you will have 'dropped' 16 feet at the 5 mile mark.

Figures taken from ENaG.

Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2015, 08:33:48 PM »
Never mind how GPS works, I think we can all agree that it does work.  And GPS outputs results using WGS-84:

(from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Geodetic_System)
So if one says that the height is not curved relative to a curved surface, guess what, it is a curved surface!  WGS-84 heights are relative to a reference ellipsoid.  If Kansas was truly flat, the WGS-84 heights would have to keep increasing moving from one side to the other in order to compensate for the fact the height is relative to a curve!  The paper linked to by FET says they used a GIS DEM model which is in, wait for it, a curved datum!  So they show Kansas is flat as a pancake laid out on a sphere!  Ooops.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 08:07:13 AM by gpssjim »

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2015, 08:59:26 PM »
Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.

I think you are mistaking 8 inches after the first mile with 8 inches per mile.  They do not mean the same thing.
He is 29silhouette not sceptic, he knows what he is talking about.

So, you agree with him that the Earth drops at 8 in. per mile?
That isn't what he said or implied.

Perhaps you just need a remedial reading class or a little tutorial help. 

Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.
So you think he said after one mile it will be 8 inches, after two miles it will be 16 inches, and so on?

Is that not what "per" means, or do you have a different definition than I was taught?
Per is the same thing as divided by in this instant.
8 inchs/mile
Do you know what a surface is?

Do you not realize that the drop and distance are proportional in that statement?  How long has it been since you have had a math class?
Here is a giant picture of a counter top. Point to the surface as you seem to think it's a single point.

It would depend on where you are standing on that counter. 

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sokarul

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Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2015, 05:59:29 AM »
Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.

I think you are mistaking 8 inches after the first mile with 8 inches per mile.  They do not mean the same thing.
He is 29silhouette not sceptic, he knows what he is talking about.

So, you agree with him that the Earth drops at 8 in. per mile?
That isn't what he said or implied.

Perhaps you just need a remedial reading class or a little tutorial help. 

Lack of any significant change in elevation does not mean the surface isn't curving 8 inches per mile.
So you think he said after one mile it will be 8 inches, after two miles it will be 16 inches, and so on?

Is that not what "per" means, or do you have a different definition than I was taught?
Per is the same thing as divided by in this instant.
8 inchs/mile
Do you know what a surface is?

Do you not realize that the drop and distance are proportional in that statement?  How long has it been since you have had a math class?
Here is a giant picture of a counter top. Point to the surface as you seem to think it's a single point.

It would depend on where you are standing on that counter.
I'll let you in on a secret, a surface is not a single point.
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2015, 06:07:44 AM »
The paper linked to by FET says they used a GSI DEM model which is in, wait for it, a curved datum!  So they show Kansas is flat as a pancake laid out on a sphere!  Ooops.
Heh.

Once jroa has finished his bickering I'm sure he'll respond intelligently....
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Rama Set

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Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2015, 07:05:53 AM »
The paper linked to by FET says they used a GSI DEM model which is in, wait for it, a curved datum!  So they show Kansas is flat as a pancake laid out on a sphere!  Ooops.
Heh.

Once jroa has finished his bickering I'm sure he'll respond intelligently....

Citation required.
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Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2015, 05:26:50 PM »
Suddenly there is silence.  Just to beat the dead horse, here is the image presented in the famous Kansas link:

The distance (x-axis) is roughly the distance from the western Kansas border to Kansas city.  The Height change (y-axis) is about what one would expect, 1195 meters to 260m.  These heights are relative to the ellipsoid!  If one aimed a laser on the level at the western Kansas boarder towards Kansas city, the laser light would be 33.5 KM over Kansas City!  This actually proves RET!  LOL!
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 05:28:37 PM by gpssjim »

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2015, 05:35:13 PM »
If one aimed a laser... This actually proves RET!  LOL!

How is an "IF" statement proof of anything?  Are you high or drunk or something?

Re: Is Kansas flat?
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2015, 08:12:16 PM »
The paper on Kansas that you linked to shows that the earth is an ellipsoid.  If you say that the difference between the earths surface and a ellipsoid is basically zero, then you are proving that Kansas is a curved surface.  It is a mistake FETers made because they did not have the intelligence to realize that elevations in a DEM are relative to a reference ellipsoid, they just saw the world 'flat' and said "Eureka!"  If I said that when you are compared to an idiot there is no difference, what do you think that means?  The difference between a flat surface and the ellipsoid over the length of Kansas is over 33KM, that is more than 100K feet!  How do you explain that?  By linking to that page you are saying that compared to a flat surface, Kansas is warped by over 100K feet!