I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge

Quote from: Heiwa on August 07, 2016, 12:50:55 AM

Quote from: Woody on August 06, 2016, 10:35:42 PM

I love how he believes satellites exist and believes the propellant needed can not be calculated.  I guess he is assuming organizations launching satellites just guess and hope for the best.

He really needs to show where Tsiolkovsky rocket equation is flawed.  Then prove Kepler's, Newton's and Ideal Gas Laws are wrong and publish his findings for peer review.  It will change the world unless he is FOS and does not understand what he is talking about.

I sometimes wonder if he realizes much of what he says contradicts laws of physics and if he understands why they are called laws.

Hm, to simplify the Challenge the trips start in orbit Earth. First difficulty is to apply a force to get away from this orbit for Moon/Mars and then calculate the fuel used.

I started the Challenge 2012 and nobody can answer what force is required to get started. One reason is that the total mass of the spaceship then is not certain! You must carry fuel with you for landing/departing Moon/Mars  to return Earth.

So you have to calculate backwards. How much fuel is required to depart Moon/Mars to return Earth? And how much fuel is required to land on Moon/Mars with that fuel in the tanks?
 
And how much fuel is required to bring all that fuel out of orbit Earth to get started?
 
According my calculations you get pretty heavy in orbit Earth and cannot get off the ground! But those are my calculations according Tsiolkovsky rocket equation and Kepler's, Newton's and Ideal Gas Laws of all kind.

I really prefer a fresh cruise on a seagoing ship in the Caribbean with nice company than being locked up inside a stinking spaceship going to Mars. Only idiots seem to prefer the latter. Luckily they don't understand that they cannot bring the fuel with them, so the space trip to Mars is cancelled ... for ever. Space travel is one-way only.

You got one thing right!  Missions are usually designed and planned from the payload down.

You really need to go back and redo your calculations.  Do I need the post the ones I already did in this thread again?

You seem to keep forgetting about them.  My calculations are done using basic astrophysical principles. Which according to the rules of your "challenge" is acceptable so I assume it is acceptable to use here.

Maybe you need to mention to your doctor you are having trouble with your memory.

I showed you the TWR, Delta-V per stage and propellant used per second for the first stage of the Saturn V assuming GVM. I am assuming you can figure out the altitude the first stage could reach and how fast the rocket would be going when the propellant was completely consumed.  I did make the mistake assuming you would know the answer for the propellant used per second when I posted the ISP and thrust.  So maybe you do not know how to get the answer.

I will give you a hint Newton's Laws are certainly involved. So is that thing you call a "mysterious force" that the atmosphere causes to varying degrees depending on density you have trouble grasping called drag.

I also suggest you review Kepler's, Newton's and the Ideal Gas Laws.  Since you really do not seem to understand much of what you say contradicts them.  If you want evidence of that just look at what you have claimed as an acceptable and reliable sources.  What is taught in schools and in books and used by many, many professionals world wide.

I can walk you through calculated TWR if you like.  I see you made the claim again the Saturn V could not get off the ground. (I am assuming that is the rocket you are claiming could not lift off)  Seeing how my calculation assuming GVM resulted in a TWR of around 1.15.  Which means it could lift off.  Why not show us your calculations since mine and yours differ.  Then we can see who has made an error.

Yes, but how much fuel (kg) did you carry at departure? And what are the astronuts doing duning 8 months to Mars ... without toilets? And showers?

What kind of humans are aboard?

Please, read the Rules of the Challenge http://heiwaco.com/chall2.htm and do not change the subject!

Topic is not propellant per second. I am interested in fuel used for the whole trip ... carried at departure.


Re: "Maybe you need to mention to your doctor you are having trouble with your memory." ... you sound mentally deranged.

Yes, but how much fuel (kg) did you carry at departure? And what are the astronuts doing duning 8 months to Mars ... without toilets? And showers?

What kind of humans are aboard?

Please, read the Rules of the Challenge http://heiwaco.com/chall2.htm and do not change the subject!

Topic is not propellant per second. I am interested in fuel used for the whole trip ... carried at departure.


Re: "Maybe you need to mention to your doctor you are having trouble with your memory." ... you sound mentally deranged.

You really should take a look at this again. 

Saturn V
                                     Individual stage                         Total vessel       
STAGE                   Total mass        Dry mass      Total mass      Dry mass        Isp           Delta-v

1  LOX/RP-1            2,300,000        131,000       2,900,000       731,000        263s       3554.2 m/s
2  LOX/LH                   480,000          36,000          600,000       156,000        421s        5561.5 m/s
3  LOX/LH                   120,800          10,000          120,800         10,000        421s        8796.2 m/s
                                                                                                                                       --------------
                                                                                                                                       17911.9 m/s   
Masses are in kg
Does not include delta-v calculations for the lunar lander, but assumes the GVM of the Saturn V.

kg of propellant per second= Thrust in Newtons/ISP in meters per second

Stage 1:
34,020,000/2580= 13,186 kg per second
164 second burn time.


Saturn V TWR:

5 F-1 engines with 6.672.000 N thrust each=33,360,000 N

2 896 895 kg gross rocket mass

(6,672,000N*5)/(2,896,895*9. 8 )=1.17  TWR


Explanation of methodology used: http://www.braeunig.us/space/index.htm


Do you know what the difference between dry and total mass is?

You also do not seem to really understand the subject matter.  This is not the first time you asked a question the above could answer with very simple calculations. 
In this case subtracting one number from another will give you the answer to your question about the amount of propellant.

Being an engineer I assume you can take it from there.  If not let me know I will do it for you.

Luckily they don't understand that they cannot bring the fuel with them, so the space trip to Mars is cancelled ... for ever. Space travel is one-way only.

Actually, they do understand the fuel problem.  That's why some of the plans include making the fuel for the return trip from resources on Mars.

@Woody

http://www.thedailybell.com/news-analysis/shock-interview-anders-bjorkman-is-a-professional-technologist-who-doesnt-believe-in-nukes/

Topic is however my Challenge. Elon Musk, CEO of SpaceX suggests that six astronuts sit in six chairs in his Mars space trip capsule for six months going to Mars but has not told me how much fuel is required for the trip. Elon's Mars space trip capsule lacks a toilet! It doesn't look good. But the trip will start 2024! http://www.afr.com/technology/spacex-could-send-people-to-mars-in-2024-elon-musk-says-20160605-gpc6xz

I suggest Elon tests it himself on ground for six months. With some journalists!

They'll probably phone up Bigelow to build them a habitat while they phone up someone else to do the rest of the stuff like propulsion and holding supplies. Surely they will bring over a toilet.

And what do you mean it doesn't look good? Is that valid critique? To be honest even the interior looks futuristic.

Quote from: Heiwa on August 07, 2016, 02:55:52 AM

@Woody

http://www.thedailybell.com/news-analysis/shock-interview-anders-bjorkman-is-a-professional-technologist-who-doesnt-believe-in-nukes/

Topic is however my Challenge. Elon Musk, CEO of SpaceX suggests that six astronuts sit in six chairs in his Mars space trip capsule for six months going to Mars but has not told me how much fuel is required for the trip. Elon's Mars space trip capsule lacks a toilet! It doesn't look good. But the trip will start 2024! http://www.afr.com/technology/spacex-could-send-people-to-mars-in-2024-elon-musk-says-20160605-gpc6xz

I suggest Elon tests it himself on ground for six months. With some journalists!

They'll probably phone up Bigelow to build them a habitat while they phone up someone else to do the rest of the stuff like propulsion and holding supplies. Surely they will bring over a toilet.

And what do you mean it doesn't look good? Is that valid critique? To be honest even the interior looks futuristic.

Topic is someting else.

But I agree. Who would spend 8 months inside a cramped, stinking, dirty, US or Russian or Elon Musk (aihhh) spaceship going to Mars without toilets, showers, a secluded suite for sex ++, no room service, no champagne, lobster, caviar, ... ?

I cannot imagine what brainless, handicapped in all other respects, idiots, cucumbers, tomatoes that dream of such shit.

That is why I offer €1M to anyone just to describe the techncal aspects of the trip. http://heiwaco.com/chall2.htm .

What about voyages in earlier history? They didn't have toilets, showers, sex suites, or room service.

I guess ships must not have sailed back then because nobody would ever want to do that.

Also, do you really think that weight is the same thing as mass?

But I agree. Who would spend 8 months inside a cramped, stinking, dirty, US or Russian or Elon Musk (aihhh) spaceship going to Mars without toilets, showers, a secluded suite for sex ++, no room service, no champagne, lobster, caviar, ... ?

I cannot imagine what brainless, handicapped in all other respects, idiots, cucumbers, tomatoes that dream of such shit.

Obviously you don't understand the difference between a pleasure cruise and a scientific expedition and it would most likely be a waste of effort to try to explain it to you.

Quote from: MrDebunk on August 07, 2016, 05:07:20 PM

Quote from: Heiwa on August 07, 2016, 02:55:52 AM

@Woody

http://www.thedailybell.com/news-analysis/shock-interview-anders-bjorkman-is-a-professional-technologist-who-doesnt-believe-in-nukes/

Topic is however my Challenge. Elon Musk, CEO of SpaceX suggests that six astronuts sit in six chairs in his Mars space trip capsule for six months going to Mars but has not told me how much fuel is required for the trip. Elon's Mars space trip capsule lacks a toilet! It doesn't look good. But the trip will start 2024! http://www.afr.com/technology/spacex-could-send-people-to-mars-in-2024-elon-musk-says-20160605-gpc6xz

I suggest Elon tests it himself on ground for six months. With some journalists!

They'll probably phone up Bigelow to build them a habitat while they phone up someone else to do the rest of the stuff like propulsion and holding supplies. Surely they will bring over a toilet.

And what do you mean it doesn't look good? Is that valid critique? To be honest even the interior looks futuristic.

Topic is someting else.

But I agree. Who would spend 8 months inside a cramped, stinking, dirty, US or Russian or Elon Musk (aihhh) spaceship going to Mars without toilets, showers, a secluded suite for sex ++, no room service, no champagne, lobster, caviar, ... ?

I cannot imagine what brainless, handicapped in all other respects, idiots, cucumbers, tomatoes that dream of such shit.

That is why I offer €1M to anyone just to describe the techncal aspects of the trip. http://heiwaco.com/chall2.htm .

Are you not going to acknowledge that my last post which was made several times in this thread answers questions you claim nobody has been able to answer?  You even made that claim after the first time I posted those calculations. I provided a link showing how I did it giving you the opportunity to point out the flaws in the methods used.

Still going to continue to lie and say nobody every has told you the amount of propellant needed?

I showed you previously the Delta-V needed to get to the Moon.  In my last post above I show the Saturn V was capable of lifting off and had enough Delta-V to get to the Moon and back.

If I am wrong then Newton's and Kepler's Laws are wrong.  They were used to determine the Delta-V required and what the Saturn V was capable of.

If those laws are wrong you really need to publish your findings for peer review.

How about man up and just post your TWR calculations for the Saturn V since you claim your's differed from mine.  Then we can compare and see who made an error.  the only calculation I have seen from you  somewhat relating to this was adding the mass of the propellant on the pad.

Quote from: Heiwa on August 08, 2016, 05:05:06 AM

But I agree. Who would spend 8 months inside a cramped, stinking, dirty, US or Russian or Elon Musk (aihhh) spaceship going to Mars without toilets, showers, a secluded suite for sex ++, no room service, no champagne, lobster, caviar, ... ?

I cannot imagine what brainless, handicapped in all other respects, idiots, cucumbers, tomatoes that dream of such shit.

Obviously you don't understand the difference between a pleasure cruise and a scientific expedition and it would most likely be a waste of effort to try to explain it to you.

Scientific expedition to the Moon? When?

Still going to continue to lie and say nobody every has told you the amount of propellant needed?

Yes and it is the truth; fact remains, in order to win my Challenge, you simply have to tell me me the amount of fuel (kg) you need for the trips. Is it 100, 1000 or 10 000 kg? Or more?

So far nobody has done it. Twirps talk about delta-v, impulses, TWRs, but they have nothing to do with the Challenge.

Quote from: Woody on August 08, 2016, 11:35:47 AM

Still going to continue to lie and say nobody every has told you the amount of propellant needed?

Yes and it is the truth; fact remains, in order to win my Challenge, you simply have to tell me me the amount of fuel (kg) you need for the trips. Is it 100, 1000 or 10 000 kg? Or more?

So far nobody has done it. Twirps talk about delta-v, impulses, TWRs, but they have nothing to do with the Challenge.

So you do not know how to subtract?  It is fine everyone has different capabilities.

Here is the amount of fuel the Saturn V had on the launch pad:

2,723,800 kg

So now you can say some told you the weight of the fuel.  It is odd you claimed nobody could yet you added the amounts on your site then claimed it was a lot. Which is correct it is a lot.

I suggest if Delta-V and TWR  or not required for your "challenge"you should consider altering your challenge again.  They are very, very important. Without them how do you know if a spacecraft can be propelled and how far it can go?

Still will not post your calculations for TWR?  Why not?  Could you show me the proper way to calculate TWR?  I assume we are using different methods since you claim the Saturn V could not lift off the pad and my calculations show it could.

Quote from: markjo on August 08, 2016, 10:13:09 AM

Quote from: Heiwa on August 08, 2016, 05:05:06 AM

But I agree. Who would spend 8 months inside a cramped, stinking, dirty, US or Russian or Elon Musk (aihhh) spaceship going to Mars without toilets, showers, a secluded suite for sex ++, no room service, no champagne, lobster, caviar, ... ?

I cannot imagine what brainless, handicapped in all other respects, idiots, cucumbers, tomatoes that dream of such shit.

Obviously you don't understand the difference between a pleasure cruise and a scientific expedition and it would most likely be a waste of effort to try to explain it to you.

Scientific expedition to the Moon? When?

Like I said, it would be a waste of effort to try to explain it to you.

There are a couple of quite intelligent people on this forum. There are a few of them that continue to feed the heiwa troll....why??

Do you certain people not feel it a waste of time? The excuse of practicing debate surely cannot be used as he says nothing new. I can almost predict his exact answers now...same for humor, he might have been funny for a month or two, now its just irritating.

Everything has already been established...we know he his a liar, we know his challenge is a lie, we know he doesn't have a pot to piss in financially etc etc. So let's finally bring this torture to a head..

The only person winning on this thread is Anders himself, he is receiving the attention he craves.... Just look how desperately he bumps his own thread and people bite. His trolling ways do not respond to traditional attacks, he is a trolling monster. This forum will never ban him, so there is only one way for defeat of such a giant... starvation.


So here is my challenge to YOU.... Ignore him..even when he bumps his own thread wanting the attention. Let him bump it three times with no answer...watch him wilt away.

You cant keep launching missiles at something that feeds off them. No one ever watched the fifth element lol??

Quote from: Heiwa on August 08, 2016, 02:08:05 PM

Quote from: Woody on August 08, 2016, 11:35:47 AM

Still going to continue to lie and say nobody every has told you the amount of propellant needed?

Yes and it is the truth; fact remains, in order to win my Challenge, you simply have to tell me me the amount of fuel (kg) you need for the trips. Is it 100, 1000 or 10 000 kg? Or more?

So far nobody has done it. Twirps talk about delta-v, impulses, TWRs, but they have nothing to do with the Challenge.

So you do not know how to subtract?  It is fine everyone has different capabilities.

Here is the amount of fuel the Saturn V had on the launch pad:

2,723,800 kg

So now you can say some told you the weight of the fuel.  It is odd you claimed nobody could yet you added the amounts on your site then claimed it was a lot. Which is correct it is a lot.

I suggest if Delta-V and TWR  or not required for your "challenge"you should consider altering your challenge again.  They are very, very important. Without them how do you know if a spacecraft can be propelled and how far it can go?

Still will not post your calculations for TWR?  Why not?  Could you show me the proper way to calculate TWR?  I assume we are using different methods since you claim the Saturn V could not lift off the pad and my calculations show it could.

Hm, according to me at http://heiwaco.com/moontravel1.htm it was  2 709 329 kg BUT it is not the answer of the Challenge. You really have to study the rules at http://heiwaco.com/chall2.htm .

Quote from: Woody on August 08, 2016, 02:40:06 PM

Quote from: Heiwa on August 08, 2016, 02:08:05 PM

Quote from: Woody on August 08, 2016, 11:35:47 AM

Still going to continue to lie and say nobody every has told you the amount of propellant needed?

Yes and it is the truth; fact remains, in order to win my Challenge, you simply have to tell me me the amount of fuel (kg) you need for the trips. Is it 100, 1000 or 10 000 kg? Or more?

So far nobody has done it. Twirps talk about delta-v, impulses, TWRs, but they have nothing to do with the Challenge.

So you do not know how to subtract?  It is fine everyone has different capabilities.

Here is the amount of fuel the Saturn V had on the launch pad:

2,723,800 kg

So now you can say some told you the weight of the fuel.  It is odd you claimed nobody could yet you added the amounts on your site then claimed it was a lot. Which is correct it is a lot.

I suggest if Delta-V and TWR  or not required for your "challenge"you should consider altering your challenge again.  They are very, very important. Without them how do you know if a spacecraft can be propelled and how far it can go?

Still will not post your calculations for TWR?  Why not?  Could you show me the proper way to calculate TWR?  I assume we are using different methods since you claim the Saturn V could not lift off the pad and my calculations show it could.

Hm, according to me at http://heiwaco.com/moontravel1.htm it was  2 709 329 kg BUT it is not the answer of the Challenge. You really have to study the rules at http://heiwaco.com/chall2.htm .

Me posting here is not about the rules of your "challenge".

It is to reveal you do not understand very basic things and lie to yourself and others.

The results you got for the weight of fuel was for a specific mission.  If you understood what GVM is my results were for the maximum amount of mass for the Saturn V.

Still can not show us any calculations?  Why not? 

How about show us were Kepler and Newton are wrong and gravity assist would not work.

TWR calculations?  You claimed more than once the Saturn V could not lift off.

Still going to claim nobody was able to tell you how much fuel is needed? 

Do I need to post the delta-v requirements again like with my calculations for the Saturn V?

Does this clown literally think the Saturn V could not lift off despite literally watching it do so 8 or 9 times?

I think the 'challenge' for him should be a psychiatric one.

Does this clown literally think the Saturn V could not lift off despite literally watching it do so 8 or 9 times?

I think the 'challenge' for him should be a psychiatric one.

He also claimed planes did not hit the WTC buildings.  Even if it is a conspiracy planes were used.  There is a lot of witnesses that can support that.

Japan helped fake/go along with the story of the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Which would include the Japanese people who witnessed both events.

He thinks rough weather could not damage the visor and ramp of a RO/RO ferry.  Even when there are multiple instances of visors and ramps being damaged in rough weather before and after the Estonia sunk.

So discounting the thousands of witnesses of a rocket launching is not much of a stretch for him.  I lived in Florida and could see the shuttle ascend from Miami.  Even got better views when I had my boat docked at a marina in Titusville.  My guess not only the people at the launch site could witness the launch.  People living within a 200 mile radius would see it ascend through the atmosphere.

Does this clown literally think the Saturn V could not lift off despite literally watching it do so 8 or 9 times?

I think the 'challenge' for him should be a psychiatric one.

Hm, the Challenge is not about >2700 tons of fuel being lifted off 8 or 9 times from Earth by some rocket today out of production, probably never built. There are only some films left. The rocket looks like a 50 tons, plywood, stage prop, IMO. I always wondered what clowns were behind the joke 1969/72. Imagine lifting >20 000 tons of fuel into the air.

No, the Challenge is to describe the 8 or 9 spacecrafts + toilet, if any, and the fuel in orbit, lifted by this rocket there, and explain what happened afterwards.

Good luck! Try to keep on topic. OT!

Quote from: fliggs on August 08, 2016, 10:18:01 PM

Does this clown literally think the Saturn V could not lift off despite literally watching it do so 8 or 9 times?

I think the 'challenge' for him should be a psychiatric one.

Hm, the Challenge is not about >2700 tons of fuel being lifted off 8 or 9 times from Earth by some rocket today out of production, probably never built. There are only some films left. The rocket looks like a 50 tons, plywood, stage prop, IMO. I always wondered what clowns were behind the joke 1969/72. Imagine lifting >20 000 tons of fuel into the air.

No, the Challenge is to describe the 8 or 9 spacecrafts + toilet, if any, and the fuel in orbit, lifted by this rocket there, and explain what happened afterwards.

Good luck! Try to keep on topic. OT!

Come on show us your calculations for TWR for the Saturn V.  You did go beyond just adding up the weight of the fuel didn't you?  You did not lie and just say you calculated it did you?  Are you avoiding posting your calculations because then you would have to say it could lift off the pad?

The topic of this thread is that you lie, refuse to offer evidence and have very little understanding about space travel.

If you are sure you are right why did you avoid the thread I started about the the topics you like to claim is off topic?

I can start a new one if you want.  Since you seem so worried about what is on topic and off topic.  My guess you will avoid answering things there to.

Why would you avoid answering things when you claim you speak the truth.  That is typical behavior of someone who is lying or actively avoiding the truth.

As stated before... He is a troll/idiot(interchangeable) of great power. The only way to defeat him is starve him!!!!! Let him bump the thread three times with no response he will wilt away like a dead pac-man...

Anders is the ONLY person that wins anything on this thread. His narcissistic uncontrollable desire for attention is being met by everyone here!

We all know he is full of shit, compulsive liar and doesn't have a pot to piss in financially on top of about 100 other things. We all know....now it is time to wilt him. As I used before, he cannot be defeated by attacks, he feeds and grows stronger.

As stated before... He is a troll/idiot(interchangeable) of great power. The only way to defeat him is starve him!!!!! Let him bump the thread three times with no response he will wilt away like a dead pac-man...

Anders is the ONLY person that wins anything on this thread. His narcissistic uncontrollable desire for attention is being met by everyone here!

We all know he is full of shit, compulsive liar and doesn't have a pot to piss in financially on top of about 100 other things. We all know....now it is time to wilt him. As I used before, he cannot be defeated by attacks, he feeds and grows stronger.

Hm, the Challenge includes a trip to Mars, too. According SpaceX Clown Executive Officer Elon Musk he will do it 2024. His spacecraft can be seen at the SpaceX website. It has six seats, no toilets, no facilities whatsoever and people shall sit in it for six months while going to Mars. I have asked for fuel consumption and prestanda but ... no answer.
In the meantime asstronuts are doing nothing up in the International Space Station. If you ask for details, they look out through the windows doing scientific research. ROTFL! And this manned space travel show has gone on for 47 years ... all produced in Hollywood. Isn't it idiotic?
Actually one purpose of my Challenge was to finish the nonsense but there are still people believing in it. Cognitive dissonance as its worst!

Hm, the Challenge includes a trip to Mars, too. According SpaceX Clown Executive Officer Elon Musk he will do it 2024. His spacecraft can be seen at the SpaceX website. It has six seats, no toilets, no facilities whatsoever and people shall sit in it for six months while going to Mars.

Wrong.  Full details of the MCT (Mars Colonial Transporter) has not yet been revealed, however it is sure to be much larger (100 tons landing on Mars?) than the Red Dragon capsule that you keep referring to.

Fun fact, the Saturn V has enough Delta-V to get to mars and back (with some clever lunar gravity assists) But the lander cannot obviously.

Fun fact, the Saturn V has enough Delta-V to get to mars and back (with some clever lunar gravity assists) But the lander cannot obviously.

From what I've heard, the moon's orbital period and inclination is such that lunar gravity assists really aren't all that much help for most planetary missions.  Such missions have fairly small launch windows and the moon just isn't in the right place at the right time very often.

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on August 09, 2016, 08:01:57 AM

Fun fact, the Saturn V has enough Delta-V to get to mars and back (with some clever lunar gravity assists) But the lander cannot obviously.

From what I've heard, the moon's orbital period and inclination is such that lunar gravity assists really aren't all that much help for most planetary missions.  Such missions have fairly small launch windows and the moon just isn't in the right place at the right time very often.

It is impractical for manned missions (and robotic ones) because of how long it would take, but it is possible, if you are willing to spend 30+ years fiddling around with gravity assists 

Quote from: markjo on August 09, 2016, 11:16:55 AM

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on August 09, 2016, 08:01:57 AM

Fun fact, the Saturn V has enough Delta-V to get to mars and back (with some clever lunar gravity assists) But the lander cannot obviously.

From what I've heard, the moon's orbital period and inclination is such that lunar gravity assists really aren't all that much help for most planetary missions.  Such missions have fairly small launch windows and the moon just isn't in the right place at the right time very often.

It is impractical for manned missions (and robotic ones) because of how long it would take, but it is possible, if you are willing to spend 30+ years fiddling around with gravity assists 

Actually, Buzz Aldrin theorized (and was later confirmed) with a trajectory with Mars that takes a little over 2 years for a round trip.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_cycler

That's not what I meant. I meant going from a trans lunar orbit and using the moon to get to interplanetary space to an encounter with mars.

That's not what I meant. I meant going from a trans lunar orbit and using the moon to get to interplanetary space to an encounter with mars.

I understand what you're saying.  I'm just saying that trans lunar orbits aren't as useful for interplanetary missions as people would like to think.  The moon just isn't in the right place at the right time often enough during the relatively short launch windows to be worth the bother.