I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge

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frenat

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4200 on: April 23, 2016, 12:57:44 PM »
According to ESA, NASA & Co I am wrong. But they refuse to answer any questions and prove it.
Nobody believes you've actually asked.  I'd ask you to prove it but nobody believes you'll ever prove any of your claims.

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Bom Tishop

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4201 on: April 23, 2016, 01:04:41 PM »

Of course, you know why, this is an online forum where some folks seek attention and will say anything to get it even if it means stacking one fraudulent, deceitful, disingenuous, dishonest post after another while projecting their own failings onto those who seek to expose them.



Yes, some clown, now apparently locked up in a mental institution or similar, started this thread a long time ago to seek attention; he said he had won my Challenge. I informed him he had not. It is the truth. Nothing to lie about.

Yes, that is exactly what I referred, you projecting your own failings onto others who have exposed you, adding yet another fraudulent, deceitful, disingenuous, dishonest post to your ample stack.

No, you don't understand with your stupid post. I just reply to most posts about my popular Challenge. Many people are just jealous about it or sorry they cannot win it. You really have to be clever to win it. You seem not to be it.

Ok here is my challenge to you heiwa. I don't have millions to put on the line without leveraging things like a dumb ass like you do apparently.  But here is what I can offer, and here is the challenge.

Prove everything you say is true that has come out of your mouth. No bull crap no excuses, and you can choose between two prizes.

https://app.box.com/s/dq9srp7gtqntddiaf0fed2mkvccyj0jl
(I wrote my screen name in the window so you know I am not just googling pictures) And yes I know it is dusty as hell, my shop is three 6k sq buildings and this is the play side, but I never have time to do anything. The building on the other side is connected and that is where I have all the heavy machinery, CNC, water cutter, lathe, ect. So it just fills that building with dust.

Or this
https://app.box.com/s/9uyn4gxv6kfjqww6hzg9x19rto6yv717
(I would choose this if it were me, just cause I love music)

You pay for all shipping ect, which shouldn't be a problem for you. If you cannot prove all the things you say is true, you have two options. Go to another site and leave this place in peace. Or apologize, fix your craziness and attempt to gain knowledge like the other people here.

Deal....??  If you are who you say you are then I get to learn a lesson from reading people wrong. If I am right, then I shall save this forum and myself alot of headache.

Also if you choose neither and happen to win, I will donate one to a charity of your choice and we will split the tax credit.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2016, 01:06:54 PM by Babyhighspeed »
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Bom Tishop

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4202 on: April 23, 2016, 01:18:50 PM »
It's the babyhighspeed heiwa challenge needed to make sure it was all in bold so you knew it was a challenge apparently. Maybe I am just itching for a Vegas trip, though I feel this has higher odds than any casino game.

I hate it when trolls prevent actual knowledge from expanding. Only crap thing is if he is telling the truth. That means have to still put up with him AND lose something valuable .least we would know his ramblings are truthful. Then maybe I can hit him up for the rest of the funding of this rocket I am trying to finish and put up so we can see the earth lol.
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Woody

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4203 on: April 23, 2016, 01:58:40 PM »
                    Individual stage                         Total vessel       
STAGE      Total mass        Dry mass      Total mass      Dry mass        Isp           Delta-v

1               2,300,000        131,000       2,900,000       731,000        263s       3554.2 m/s
2                  480,000          36,000          600,000       156,000       421s        5561.5 m/s
3                  120,800          10,000          120,800         10,000       421s        8796.2 m/s
                                                                                                                  --------------
                                                                                                                 17911.9 m/s   
Masses are in kg
Does not include delta-v calculations for the lunar lander but assumes the gross weight of the Saturn V.

The above is using information found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_V







The variations you see above is because different orbits, launch sites, launch windows, safety margins for human error and other factors are assumed.  I used an average of the results.

Making a round trip from the Earth to a lunar orbit takes about 17,500 m/s. It can be done with a little less. 

So you can now say someone at least calculated the delta-v required to get to an orbit of the moon and return and the delta-v for the Saturn V.

My guess you will still claim no one is capable of or has done it just for you.

Similar to how you ignore people have shown you where to find the information you claim is not available.

I provided you the links to show the methodology I used show me where it is flawed.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2016, 02:01:07 PM by Woody »

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Woody

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4204 on: April 23, 2016, 03:01:05 PM »
It's the babyhighspeed heiwa challenge needed to make sure it was all in bold so you knew it was a challenge apparently. Maybe I am just itching for a Vegas trip, though I feel this has higher odds than any casino game.

I hate it when trolls prevent actual knowledge from expanding. Only crap thing is if he is telling the truth. That means have to still put up with him AND lose something valuable .least we would know his ramblings are truthful. Then maybe I can hit him up for the rest of the funding of this rocket I am trying to finish and put up so we can see the earth lol.

I have got to agree with you.  I am not bothered people questioning things and investigating what they are told to see if it is true.  It does bother me when during that investigation they ignore the stuff that says they are wrong, make false claims to bolster their view, and then make an effort to spread their disinformation to the public.

It is the reason I post in forums like these.  My hope someone on the verge going down a similar path as Heiwa will be swayed and realize Heiwa has a very limited understanding of the subject matter and can not provide evidence. 

I am pretty confident nothing I can do that will change Heiwa's mind on the matter.  He has demonstrated that here and in other forums by ignoring the glaring flaws in his calculations and physics models that has been pointed out.  His response when they are usually is one or a combination of ad hominem, incredulity and dismissal.

If he is a troll then he does not realize or care his actions may convince others he is right and take them down the rabbit hole many conspiracy theorist go into.

If he is sincere then I am a little more understanding and he really needs to look up and consider who is suffering from cognitive dissonance. He gives a warning to people about it on his web site and they may not want to continue reading.  Funny how he is the one that shows the signs of it. 

@Heiwa:

1. Two different sets of physics involved for manned and unmanned spacecraft.

2. Drag and lift do not exist if something went to space.

3. Highly elliptical orbits only result in crashing back to Earth if the orbit would result in an encounter with the moon.

4. Your model say gravity can alter the velocity of something, yet gravity assist are impossible.

5. Calculations used to get a satellite in orbit can not be used for any other spacecraft especially ones with people on board.

6. The Earth, moon and sun have the equal or close to the same amount of gravitational influence between the Earth and moon.

7. Points of reference can not be used in space.

8. Telemetry used for satellites can not be used to navigate anything going to the moon or beyond.  Angles can not be measured in space.

9. The energy added by rocket exhaust is not important to consider and does not need to be included in formulas.

10. It is impossible to navigate in 3-d space when things like planes and submarines do it.

11. NASA does not make information available to you, yet myself and others find it relatively easily using a search engine.

12. Things almost instantaneous vaporize when entering the atmosphere yet meteors have hit the Earth if they happen to enter at the right angles. They also are likely traveling at much higher speeds than required to orbit the Earth.  One reason they can make it to the surface is ablation which you claim does not work.

13. Blast furnaces can reach temperatures of around 1,800 °C  and built to withstand it, yet nothing can be done to withstand the heat of reentry.

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Woody

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4205 on: April 23, 2016, 03:23:25 PM »

As I mentioned before if you do not have a basic understanding of the generally accepted model even in the base game you will not make it to orbit unless you happen to get lucky.

Hm, the topic is my Challenge about masses and fuel consumption of spacecrafts with humans aboard. I know I can send a satellite (without humans) into orbit, etc, etc.

BTW - I live, asocially, in a rather luxurious 6 rooms appartment with a nice roof garden and balcony overlooking the Mediterranean sea with a 1100 m tall mountain in the back sometimes covered in snow in the winter. I am the owner of it. Only the appartment. The mountain belongs to the French army that once had a fortress on the top ... now abandoned. And I am not the owner of the Mediterranean sea. I just see it. You understand?
 
It is correct that I consider all atomic bombs non-working (and other nuclear weapon pretty useless) while being a supporter of civilian, nuclear energy/electricity/power generation. Like all French I am anti-American. One reason is that Americans believe that structures just suddenly collapse from top down - small, weak top crushing big, strong bottom ... all the fault of some Arabs. Such Americans are really ignorant, stupid fools that I generally just laugh at. Imagine all the POTUS believing in such nonsense.

I have done military service in the Navy ... just like six POTUS! Imagine that! But I was really involved - not having a vaccation in the South Pacific away from the eyes of media.

While not a perfect simulation it does an adequate job at getting the basics right.
That is why my recreation of the Apollo missions used almost the same amount of delta-v claimed by NASA and others sources say it takes to get to the moon and back.

You are showing your lack of understanding again since it seems you do not know to calculate delta-v you need to know masses and the amount and type of propellant.

Delta-v is what determines where a spacecraft can go and it does not matter if the payload includes people are not.  It tells you the total velocity change that a rocket can achieve. 

Getting places in space is just changing velocity.  That is why one of the most important and most used equations is Tsiolkovsky's.

To win my Challenge (topic) you must describe perfectly human space trips to (1) the Moon and (2) Mars, incl. the mass (kg) of the spacecraft and fuel (kg) used at various stages during the trips. Don't tell me that I can do it myself. I can't!

I know of course that you must apply forces (N) during times (seconds) to the spacecraft to (1) leave Earth, (2) to land on the Moon and Mars, (3) leave the Moon and Mars and (4) finally re-enter and land on Earth.

The Challenge is to calculate the fuel (kg) to create the forces. Should be easy?

I am 100% certain NASA and ESA cannot do it.

Why?

I have asked them!

And they didn't reply.

Even if I offered €1M for it.

Then I extended my generous offer/Challenge to the public. Topic!

And there we are today.

One applicant presented a spacecraft with mass >300 000 kg orbiting Earth prior departure. Most of it was fuel just to get started on the trip away from Earth gravity.

The spacecraft looked spartan. No beds. No nothing. Looked like the inside of a tent. His spacecraft needed >250 000 kg fuel just to leave Earth orbit

I asked how he got his >300 000 kg spacecraft + fuel into orbit. He said he used some superstrong rocket, blah, blah.

Today it seems most spacecrafts are satellites with mass ~3 000 kg and they are just sent into orbits around Earth. They are just 100 times smaller than my applicant's spartan spacecraft going further.

But who wants to go to Mars in a cramped spacecraft smaller than a tent?

They must be idiots.

Don't tell me again I am an idiot. I am not. See http://heiwaco.com/cv.htm

Here are NASA's answers you seem to keep missing seeing in my previous post:

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20160003122.pdf
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19890001049.pdf
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19710007291.pdf
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19800022934.pdf
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19700011707.pdf
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19720018196.pdf
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19710015566.pdf
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19650002716.pdf
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19670030750.pdf

The above covers what you say NASA does not answer.  It is just a sample of what they make available.

Are you expecting them to redo all the work just for you?

I have shown you where you can find the information you seek.  It is not the only source where you can find the answers to your questions.

http://www.braeunig.us/space/index.htm
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kepler.html
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/history/newton3laws.html
http://web.mit.edu/16.unified/www/SPRING/propulsion/notes/node103.html
http://www.brighthub.com/science/space/articles/116036.aspx
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telemetry
https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_delegations/designee_types/ame/media/Section%20III.4.1.5%20Maneuvering%20in%20Space.pdf

If you can not find the answers it is because you do not want to find it.

Still just going to claim NASA does not make the information available? 

I have pointed out before that NASA did not make this stuff up.  They got all this stuff you like to call funny from the previous generations studying the nature of the world and universe around us.

If you are honest with yourself and others you will stop claiming the information is not available.

If you are truly interested in learning KSP is a great learning tool.  It allows you to mess around a try different things.  It is a adequate simulator of the basics.  Which you have continuously demonstrated having a limited understanding.

1. You seem to think propellant being ejected out a rocket nozzle at high velocity does not need to be taken into account when making calculations.

2. You do not understand drag, since you think it is not a factor during reentry.  You claim there is some mysterious force slowing down spacecraft during reentry.

3. You do not understand lift since you do not understand how something like the Apollo capsules being able to use it.

4. You do not understand calculating things like delta-v and maneuvers is not effected by one or more people on board the spacecraft.

5. You thinking a highly elliptical orbit will result in the spacecraft crashing back on Earth or only crashing if that orbit would result in an encounter with the moon. 

6. You acknowledging gravity is capable of altering velocity yet a gravity assist is impossible.

7. Thinking a reference can not be used in space

8. Thinking measuring angles, telemetry, radar, etc can not be used for navigation in space

9. You seem to not understand delta-v and what it relates to.

10. Thinking Tsiolkovsky rocket equation some how can not be used to answer the amount of propellant needed.

Thanks.

Why do you tell me again I am an idiot.

I am not.

Topic is my Challenge and you have to provide figures of masses and fuel consumed.

Do it! Do not copy/paste links to rubbish to waste my time (I have plenty).

Why not just make an attempt to win the Challenge?

I am not calling you an idiot.  I am pointing out the flaws in your model and reasoning.  The closest to name calling my post gets is it suggest you are being dishonest with yourself and others.  I back it up by providing links to information giving you the answers you claim NASA does not make available and where there are conflicts in your model.

I am not interested in your challenge because I believe it is not legitimate.  You fail to provide proof of funds, you have already made the ruling before receiving any application, there is evidence you have failed to counter you live in subsidized housing which suggest you do not have the money available to pay, you made the claim about being sentenced to death in the US for releasing classified information, but never had access to classified information, claiming to be in the commercial space travel industry which ends up meaning you may hold shares in a company who holds shares in another company.

I ma here to debate your model.  If you appoint an unbiased judge or judges and prove you have the money I may change my mind.

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Bom Tishop

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4206 on: April 23, 2016, 04:00:52 PM »

I have got to agree with you.  I am not bothered people questioning things and investigating what they are told to see if it is true.  It does bother me when during that investigation they ignore the stuff that says they are wrong, make false claims to bolster their view, and then make an effort to spread their disinformation to the public.

It is the reason I post in forums like these.  My hope someone on the verge going down a similar path as Heiwa will be swayed and realize Heiwa has a very limited understanding of the subject matter and can not provide evidence. 

I am pretty confident nothing I can do that will change Heiwa's mind on the matter.  He has demonstrated that here and in other forums by ignoring the glaring flaws in his calculations and physics models that has been pointed out.  His response when they are usually is one or a combination of ad hominem, incredulity and dismissal.

If he is a troll then he does not realize or care his actions may convince others he is right and take them down the rabbit hole many conspiracy theorist go into.

If he is sincere then I am a little more understanding and he really needs to sufferingnd consider who is suffering from cognitive dissonance. He gives a warning to people about it on his web site and they may not want to continue reading.  Funny how he is the one that shows the signs of it. 


Completely agreed my friend, thus why I used such a heavy challenge. To either shut him up or me up. Truth is number 1 and a half with me, with Yahweh being number 1. Plus as I said, if he really is mr rich, and everything else he says is true. Then yeah I lose either a lambo or a Steinway, but then maybe he will fund the rocket I am trying to send up lol. If he is what he says and that interested in truth then he will see the value of 22,000 miles.

It will prove or disprove so many things from flat or globe to rocket dynamics and so much in between. No more speculation, we will see it with our eyes!! Think about that!! I already have about 50 percent of the parts in left overs from when areospace had independent buyers. The project is about 25 percent complete. Just need some help in funding. Also need help in areas I am not super experienced like break away trajectory, guidence, line of sight ground data feed, and software.

This should at least show what truth and places where thoughts are shared mean to me and the value I place on them. 
« Last Edit: April 23, 2016, 04:17:02 PM by Babyhighspeed »
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Heiwa

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4207 on: April 23, 2016, 08:06:05 PM »
                    Individual stage                         Total vessel       
STAGE      Total mass        Dry mass      Total mass      Dry mass        Isp           Delta-v

1               2,300,000        131,000       2,900,000       731,000        263s       3554.2 m/s
2                  480,000          36,000          600,000       156,000       421s        5561.5 m/s
3                  120,800          10,000          120,800         10,000       421s        8796.2 m/s
                                                                                                                  --------------
                                                                                                                 17911.9 m/s   
Masses are in kg
Does not include delta-v calculations for the lunar lander but assumes the gross weight of the Saturn V.

The above is using information found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_V







The variations you see above is because different orbits, launch sites, launch windows, safety margins for human error and other factors are assumed.  I used an average of the results.

Making a round trip from the Earth to a lunar orbit takes about 17,500 m/s. It can be done with a little less. 

So you can now say someone at least calculated the delta-v required to get to an orbit of the moon and return and the delta-v for the Saturn V.

My guess you will still claim no one is capable of or has done it just for you.

Similar to how you ignore people have shown you where to find the information you claim is not available.

I provided you the links to show the methodology I used show me where it is flawed.

Are you suggesting that you can use the same spacecraft going to the Moon and Mars and that they have same mass at departure Earth and that same amount of fuel is used for both trips? Regardless, it seems you are too heavy to get off the ground. Are you seriously suggesting that Saturn V ever existed? It looked like an empty, light weight mock-up to me. And it went out of production 1973!

Anyway, you have to describe the forces (N) involved for every maneouvre and the fuel (kg) used for them. And do not forget to describe the trajectories. And that an application should include, i.a.:-

1. Mass (kg)/speed (m/s)/altitude (m) of space ship/fuel in orbit of Earth (ready to go) and how it got there!

2. Mass (kg)/speed (m/s)/direction of space ship/fuel after departure orbit Earth heading for location X in space and on to Moon and Mars + calculations (location X is where Moon/Mars gravity equals Earth gravity in space).

3. Mass (kg)/speed (m/s)/direction of space ship/fuel prior arrival Moon/Mars + calculations.

4. Mass (kg)/speed (m/s)/altitude (m) of space ship/fuel in orbit around Moon/Mars - if applicable.

5. Mass (kg)/speed (m/s) of space ship module/fuel in orbit Moon/Mars and prior landing - if applicable.

6. Mass (kg) of space ship/fuel after landing Moon/Mars.

7. Mass (kg) of space ship/fuel prior departure Moon/Mars.

8. Mass (kg)/speed (m/s)/altitude (m) of space ship/fuel in orbit Moon/Mars prior departure to return Earth - if applicable.

9. Mass (kg)/speed (m/s)/direction of space ship/fuel after departure orbit Moon/Mars heading for location X in space and on to Earth + calculations.

10. Trajectories - locations in space at regular intervals to confirm that you are heading in the right direction

11. Mass (kg)/speed (m/s)/direction of space ship just prior re-entry Earth.

12. Trajectory of re-entry, incl. start location (position/altitude), directions in 3D, altitudes, velocities in 3D every minute from start to end (parachutes deployed).

13. Landing (details).

What does the inside of your spacecraft look like? A military tent? Going to Mars needs some comfort, I assume.

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Blue_Moon

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4208 on: April 23, 2016, 08:31:39 PM »
Are you seriously suggesting that Saturn V ever existed? It looked like an empty, lightweight mock-up to me. And it went out of production 1973!

You've got some serious nerve calling the existence of the Saturn V into question.  Thousands and thousands of people were involved in its development, and millions have seen it launch.  It makes no difference when it went out of production.  I see the full-scale Saturn V every single day, and there's no question that it was capable of taking people to the moon. 
Aerospace Engineering Student
NASA Enthusiast
Round Earth Advocate
More qualified to speak for NASA than you are to speak against them

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Heiwa

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4209 on: April 23, 2016, 08:57:40 PM »
Are you seriously suggesting that Saturn V ever existed? It looked like an empty, lightweight mock-up to me. And it went out of production 1973!

You've got some serious nerve calling the existence of the Saturn V into question.  Thousands and thousands of people were involved in its development, and millions have seen it launch.  It makes no difference when it went out of production.  I see the full-scale Saturn V every single day, and there's no question that it was capable of taking people to the moon.
For sure it looked impressive 'live on TV 1969-1972' but it does not prove anything except that it is out of production and cannot be used to win my Challenge. That it was capable to lift a spacecraft going to the Moon is not really established, either. You really have to produce verified facts and figures to win the Challenge and not fantasies and dreams.

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Woody

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4210 on: April 23, 2016, 08:58:16 PM »
                    Individual stage                         Total vessel       
STAGE      Total mass        Dry mass      Total mass      Dry mass        Isp           Delta-v

1               2,300,000        131,000       2,900,000       731,000        263s       3554.2 m/s
2                  480,000          36,000          600,000       156,000       421s        5561.5 m/s
3                  120,800          10,000          120,800         10,000       421s        8796.2 m/s
                                                                                                                  --------------
                                                                                                                 17911.9 m/s   
Masses are in kg
Does not include delta-v calculations for the lunar lander but assumes the gross weight of the Saturn V.

The above is using information found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_V







The variations you see above is because different orbits, launch sites, launch windows, safety margins for human error and other factors are assumed.  I used an average of the results.

Making a round trip from the Earth to a lunar orbit takes about 17,500 m/s. It can be done with a little less. 

So you can now say someone at least calculated the delta-v required to get to an orbit of the moon and return and the delta-v for the Saturn V.

My guess you will still claim no one is capable of or has done it just for you.

Similar to how you ignore people have shown you where to find the information you claim is not available.

I provided you the links to show the methodology I used show me where it is flawed.

Are you suggesting that you can use the same spacecraft going to the Moon and Mars and that they have same mass at departure Earth and that same amount of fuel is used for both trips? Regardless, it seems you are too heavy to get off the ground. Are you seriously suggesting that Saturn V ever existed? It looked like an empty, light weight mock-up to me. And it went out of production 1973!

Anyway, you have to describe the forces (N) involved for every maneouvre and the fuel (kg) used for them. And do not forget to describe the trajectories. And that an application should include, i.a.:-

1. Mass (kg)/speed (m/s)/altitude (m) of space ship/fuel in orbit of Earth (ready to go) and how it got there!

2. Mass (kg)/speed (m/s)/direction of space ship/fuel after departure orbit Earth heading for location X in space and on to Moon and Mars + calculations (location X is where Moon/Mars gravity equals Earth gravity in space).

3. Mass (kg)/speed (m/s)/direction of space ship/fuel prior arrival Moon/Mars + calculations.

4. Mass (kg)/speed (m/s)/altitude (m) of space ship/fuel in orbit around Moon/Mars - if applicable.

5. Mass (kg)/speed (m/s) of space ship module/fuel in orbit Moon/Mars and prior landing - if applicable.

6. Mass (kg) of space ship/fuel after landing Moon/Mars.

7. Mass (kg) of space ship/fuel prior departure Moon/Mars.

8. Mass (kg)/speed (m/s)/altitude (m) of space ship/fuel in orbit Moon/Mars prior departure to return Earth - if applicable.

9. Mass (kg)/speed (m/s)/direction of space ship/fuel after departure orbit Moon/Mars heading for location X in space and on to Earth + calculations.

10. Trajectories - locations in space at regular intervals to confirm that you are heading in the right direction

11. Mass (kg)/speed (m/s)/direction of space ship just prior re-entry Earth.

12. Trajectory of re-entry, incl. start location (position/altitude), directions in 3D, altitudes, velocities in 3D every minute from start to end (parachutes deployed).

13. Landing (details).

What does the inside of your spacecraft look like? A military tent? Going to Mars needs some comfort, I assume.

You fail to understand again.  What I showed you is the delta-V needed to go from the surface of the Earth to orbit around the moon and return.

I showed you the delta-v of the Saturn 5, that it showed it was capable of making it there and back.

Seems you like to ignore or consistently miss post that show you are wrong about something. In case you forgot here is the TWR for the Saturn V assuming gross weight.  A calculation I showed you before and used numbers you supplied on your site that you use to prove the Apollo mission was a hoax.

 Do you remember this I posted awhile back when you said the Saturn V could not get off the pad?

Quote
five F-1 engines with 6.672.000 N thrust each[first stage]=33,360,000 N

2 896 895 kg gross rocket mass

(6,672,000N*5)/(2,896,895*9. 8 )=1.17 TWR  Means the rocket can lift off the pad.

Your gross weight was a little high for Apollo 11 it was around  2,767,000 kg. and the TWR was around 1.4.

To calculate the TWR I used data supplied by you on your website.

You seem not to understand.  I am not here to win your challenge since I think it is not legitimate. 

I am here to debate your model and have absolutely no interest in submitting anything to you.  If you allow a unbiased 3rd party judge and prove you have the money I may change my mind.

I am not saying the same amount of delta-v is required to go to Mars and the moon. Just some of the information I used includes it.

You once again show you lack of understanding of the subject.  Figuring out the delta-v capacity of a space craft requires knowing how much fuel you have.

Do I need to spoon feed it to you?  You are an engineer you should be able to figure out the amount of propellant needed and how much is used during a burn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_impulse

"Specific impulse (usually abbreviated Isp) is a measure of the efficiency of rocket and jet engines. By definition, it is the total impulse (or change in momentum) delivered per unit of propellant consumed,[1] and is dimensionally equivalent to the thrust generated divided by the propellant flow rate."

That should help led you to the answer of how much propellant is used. I assuming with that information you can figure it out.

The methodology I used can be found here and many other places: http://www.braeunig.us/space/index.htm

Can you show me where it is flawed?

« Last Edit: April 23, 2016, 09:35:06 PM by Woody »

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Woody

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4211 on: April 23, 2016, 09:20:40 PM »
Are you seriously suggesting that Saturn V ever existed? It looked like an empty, lightweight mock-up to me. And it went out of production 1973!

You've got some serious nerve calling the existence of the Saturn V into question.  Thousands and thousands of people were involved in its development, and millions have seen it launch.  It makes no difference when it went out of production.  I see the full-scale Saturn V every single day, and there's no question that it was capable of taking people to the moon.
For sure it looked impressive 'live on TV 1969-1972' but it does not prove anything except that it is out of production and cannot be used to win my Challenge. That it was capable to lift a spacecraft going to the Moon is not really established, either. You really have to produce verified facts and figures to win the Challenge and not fantasies and dreams.

I showed you before it was capable of lifting off the pad, using the data you have on your website.  Now I think about it I used the same source you did to calculate the delta-v you used for your site and calculations.

You once again show your challenge has already been judged before receiving the application.  That is why if you are honest you would either end your challenge or appoint an unbiased judge.  You must admit if you ave already deemed it impossible you already made your judgment before receiving applications.  Which means the challenge is unwinnable and not a challenge.

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Heiwa

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4212 on: April 23, 2016, 09:44:03 PM »
Are you seriously suggesting that Saturn V ever existed? It looked like an empty, lightweight mock-up to me. And it went out of production 1973!

You've got some serious nerve calling the existence of the Saturn V into question.  Thousands and thousands of people were involved in its development, and millions have seen it launch.  It makes no difference when it went out of production.  I see the full-scale Saturn V every single day, and there's no question that it was capable of taking people to the moon.
For sure it looked impressive 'live on TV 1969-1972' but it does not prove anything except that it is out of production and cannot be used to win my Challenge. That it was capable to lift a spacecraft going to the Moon is not really established, either. You really have to produce verified facts and figures to win the Challenge and not fantasies and dreams.

I showed you before it was capable of lifting off the pad, using the data you have on your website.  Now I think about it I used the same source you did to calculate the delta-v you used for your site and calculations.

You once again show your challenge has already been judged before receiving the application.  That is why if you are honest you would either end your challenge or appoint an unbiased judge.  You must admit if you ave already deemed it impossible you already made your judgment before receiving applications.  Which means the challenge is unwinnable and not a challenge.

You are off topic - forces (N) to get to the Moon/Mars acting on masses and the fuel used to produce them. Your deltaV only works in vacuum and away from other objects attracting it and you must know the exhaust velocity of the rocket engine. Your figures mean nothing!

That's why the Challenge starts in orbit and you have to go from there. If your spacecraft with fuel has mass 300 000 kg in orbit (at certain velocity/altitude) you must evidently tell me how it got there. Rockets today cannot lift 300 000 kg into orbit. It seems you need 15 rockets and then you assemble the spacecraft in orbit. Why not? 

And then off you go. Tell me the force (N) to do it. And the fuel consumed! 250 000 kg? Just to get started? Why not? It seems Earth strong gravity is the biggest obstacle both going away and coming back (re-entry).

You do not have to start in orbit. You can go direct to the Moon Tintin 1953 style. Just tell me the fuel used for that.

How do you intend to do the re-entry. Just dropping into the atmosphere and hope for the best Gagarin 1961 style? It was communist propaganda! Still is!

That's why nobody wins my Challenge. I cannot understand that people still not have grasped it. Probably serious cases of cognitive dissonance.

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Woody

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4213 on: April 23, 2016, 10:30:32 PM »
Are you seriously suggesting that Saturn V ever existed? It looked like an empty, lightweight mock-up to me. And it went out of production 1973!

You've got some serious nerve calling the existence of the Saturn V into question.  Thousands and thousands of people were involved in its development, and millions have seen it launch.  It makes no difference when it went out of production.  I see the full-scale Saturn V every single day, and there's no question that it was capable of taking people to the moon.
For sure it looked impressive 'live on TV 1969-1972' but it does not prove anything except that it is out of production and cannot be used to win my Challenge. That it was capable to lift a spacecraft going to the Moon is not really established, either. You really have to produce verified facts and figures to win the Challenge and not fantasies and dreams.

I showed you before it was capable of lifting off the pad, using the data you have on your website.  Now I think about it I used the same source you did to calculate the delta-v you used for your site and calculations.

You once again show your challenge has already been judged before receiving the application.  That is why if you are honest you would either end your challenge or appoint an unbiased judge.  You must admit if you ave already deemed it impossible you already made your judgment before receiving applications.  Which means the challenge is unwinnable and not a challenge.

You are off topic - forces (N) to get to the Moon/Mars acting on masses and the fuel used to produce them. Your deltaV only works in vacuum and away from other objects attracting it and you must know the exhaust velocity of the rocket engine. Your figures mean nothing!

That's why the Challenge starts in orbit and you have to go from there. If your spacecraft with fuel has mass 300 000 kg in orbit (at certain velocity/altitude) you must evidently tell me how it got there. Rockets today cannot lift 300 000 kg into orbit. It seems you need 15 rockets and then you assemble the spacecraft in orbit. Why not? 

And then off you go. Tell me the force (N) to do it. And the fuel consumed! 250 000 kg? Just to get started? Why not? It seems Earth strong gravity is the biggest obstacle both going away and coming back (re-entry).

You do not have to start in orbit. You can go direct to the Moon Tintin 1953 style. Just tell me the fuel used for that.

How do you intend to do the re-entry. Just dropping into the atmosphere and hope for the best Gagarin 1961 style? It was communist propaganda! Still is!

That's why nobody wins my Challenge. I cannot understand that people still not have grasped it. Probably serious cases of cognitive dissonance.







g0 is the acceleration at the Earth's surface, in m/s2 (or ft/s2),

"ɡ0 or ɡn, is the nominal gravitational acceleration of an object in a vacuum near the surface of the Earth. It is defined by standard as 9.80665 m/s2"



Ve is effective exhaust velocity

ISP:

"Specific impulse (usually abbreviated Isp) is a measure of the efficiency of rocket and jet engines."

"by definition, it is the total impulse (or change in momentum) delivered per unit of propellant consumed,[1] and is dimensionally equivalent to the thrust generated divided by the propellant flow rate"

"Jet engines using outside air therefore have a much higher specific impulse than rocket engines."

"specific impulses are often measured in meters per second and are often termed effective exhaust velocity"

"Note that the rate of change of momentum of a rocket (including its propellant) per unit time is equal to the thrust"

Kind of seems you just dismissed something because it says going to the moon is possible without looking into it.  Is this how you plan to judge your challenge? If it is it suggest myself and others who think you have prejudged applications before getting them are right.

Edit: Forgot to add this:

LOX/RP-1      265s sl / 304s vac
LOX/LH         2424s vacuum
LOX/LH         2424s vacuum   

I wonder what that sl stands for?  I am thinking it is sea level.

If I am right I wonder why they would bother to figure it out if pressure is not considered.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2016, 10:42:30 PM by Woody »

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Heiwa

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4214 on: April 23, 2016, 11:42:39 PM »







g0 is the acceleration at the Earth's surface, in m/s2 (or ft/s2),

"ɡ0 or ɡn, is the nominal gravitational acceleration of an object in a vacuum near the surface of the Earth. It is defined by standard as 9.80665 m/s2"



Ve is effective exhaust velocity

ISP:

"Specific impulse (usually abbreviated Isp) is a measure of the efficiency of rocket and jet engines."

"by definition, it is the total impulse (or change in momentum) delivered per unit of propellant consumed,[1] and is dimensionally equivalent to the thrust generated divided by the propellant flow rate"

"Jet engines using outside air therefore have a much higher specific impulse than rocket engines."

"specific impulses are often measured in meters per second and are often termed effective exhaust velocity"

"Note that the rate of change of momentum of a rocket (including its propellant) per unit time is equal to the thrust"

Kind of seems you just dismissed something because it says going to the moon is possible without looking into it.  Is this how you plan to judge your challenge? If it is it suggest myself and others who think you have prejudged applications before getting them are right.

Edit: Forgot to add this:

LOX/RP-1      265s sl / 304s vac
LOX/LH         2424s vacuum
LOX/LH         2424s vacuum   

I wonder what that sl stands for?  I am thinking it is sea level.

If I am right I wonder why they would bother to figure it out if pressure is not considered.

Hm, why do you post above? What has it to do with topic - winning my Challenge?

To win the Challenge you must be able to calculate the force (N) applied to a spacecraft in orbit at certain speed/altitude, so it changes its orbital trajectory to a new trajectory that will bring it to the target.

Applying this force to the spacecraft will increase velocity and change direction, while fuel is consumed, mass is reduced, etc, etc. What will be the velocity/direction after applying the force?

How do you intend to go about it? A big force during short duration/distance passed = big acceleration during short time, or a small force during a long duration/distance passed = small acceleration during longer time.

I assume it depends on the engine chosen. What engine do you intend to use?

And what is the mass of your spaceship (without fuel) (kg)? Has it rest rooms, indoor garden, some leisure facilities, a piano, a restaurant? How do you intend to entertain the  humans aboard during the trip? Arranging TV shows to be transmitted to Earth showing the humans floating around? Haven't we seen them before? Look like Hollywod? Boring. The big Challenge is to explain the purpose of the trip! Just to spend money? What has humans to do in space?

I look forward to your application. But hurry up. Maybe someone else will win before you?

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Woody

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4215 on: April 24, 2016, 02:15:19 AM »







g0 is the acceleration at the Earth's surface, in m/s2 (or ft/s2),

"ɡ0 or ɡn, is the nominal gravitational acceleration of an object in a vacuum near the surface of the Earth. It is defined by standard as 9.80665 m/s2"



Ve is effective exhaust velocity

ISP:

"Specific impulse (usually abbreviated Isp) is a measure of the efficiency of rocket and jet engines."

"by definition, it is the total impulse (or change in momentum) delivered per unit of propellant consumed,[1] and is dimensionally equivalent to the thrust generated divided by the propellant flow rate"

"Jet engines using outside air therefore have a much higher specific impulse than rocket engines."

"specific impulses are often measured in meters per second and are often termed effective exhaust velocity"

"Note that the rate of change of momentum of a rocket (including its propellant) per unit time is equal to the thrust"

Kind of seems you just dismissed something because it says going to the moon is possible without looking into it.  Is this how you plan to judge your challenge? If it is it suggest myself and others who think you have prejudged applications before getting them are right.

Edit: Forgot to add this:

LOX/RP-1      265s sl / 304s vac
LOX/LH         2424s vacuum
LOX/LH         2424s vacuum   

I wonder what that sl stands for?  I am thinking it is sea level.

If I am right I wonder why they would bother to figure it out if pressure is not considered.

Hm, why do you post above? What has it to do with topic - winning my Challenge?

To win the Challenge you must be able to calculate the force (N) applied to a spacecraft in orbit at certain speed/altitude, so it changes its orbital trajectory to a new trajectory that will bring it to the target.

Applying this force to the spacecraft will increase velocity and change direction, while fuel is consumed, mass is reduced, etc, etc. What will be the velocity/direction after applying the force?

How do you intend to go about it? A big force during short duration/distance passed = big acceleration during short time, or a small force during a long duration/distance passed = small acceleration during longer time.

I assume it depends on the engine chosen. What engine do you intend to use?

And what is the mass of your spaceship (without fuel) (kg)? Has it rest rooms, indoor garden, some leisure facilities, a piano, a restaurant? How do you intend to entertain the  humans aboard during the trip? Arranging TV shows to be transmitted to Earth showing the humans floating around? Haven't we seen them before? Look like Hollywod? Boring. The big Challenge is to explain the purpose of the trip! Just to spend money? What has humans to do in space?

I look forward to your application. But hurry up. Maybe someone else will win before you?

You seem to continue to miss this:  I think you should save the money, since your challenge has already been met by NASA.  I am not interested in your challenge, I rather quickly came to believe it is not valid.  If you prove you have the funds and appoint another judge who is not biased I may change my mind.

I am here to debate your model and offer a counter view for anyone reading this thread.

Do you not understand the equations I posted and the rocket I used was the Saturn V?

1st stage:
5 Rocketdyne F-1 engines using LOX/RP-1 mixture, thrust ea. 6,770kN(SL) 7,770 kN(Vac)
2nd stage:
5 Rocketdyne J-2  engines using LOX/LH mixture, thrust ea. 486 kN(SL) 1,033 kN (Vac)
3rd stage:
1 Rocketdyne J-2 engine using LOX/LH mixture, thrust  486 kN(SL) 1,033 kN (Vac)

The reasoning and formulas for thrust calculations is here: http://www.braeunig.us/space/index.htm

For your first question I think we already covered.  Navigation and determining orientation in space is done by measuring angles, gyroscopes, telemetry, tracking stations and using references like the Earth or moon.  Apollo 11 used landmarks on the moon to help orientate and confirm their location along with other methods.

The velocity after the burn is determined how the craft was orientated and duration of the burn.  There are several models to chose from but patched conics is adequate to use to predict orbits.

You are not going to get much more out of me besides posting a simply calculation, pointing out inconsistencies of your model, and when you demonstrate a lack of understanding of space travel.

If you think I am going to spend hundreds of hours planning and designing missions to the Moon and Mars, it is not going to happen.  Simply because the information how space travel is done is readily available, it has been done and is available online, the formulas conform with the current understanding of physics that have been consistently proven, and I do not think your challenge is legitimate.

If you prove you have the funds and appoint an unbiased judge then I will reconsider.

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Bom Tishop

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4216 on: April 24, 2016, 02:31:41 AM »
Why don't you try and win my challenge you have to be intelligent and clever enough, seems that is not you.

What about my challenge heiwa?????? It's the easiest one to win, and the prizes are not just me moving my mouth, and i am a man of my word (i have surely won and lost some crazy bets in my life) There they are right there!!! All you have to be is not a liar to win!! How easy is that??? No math required. I reposted it below, just in case you were having reading comprehension issues again.


Ok here is my challenge to you heiwa. I don't have millions to put on the line without leveraging things like a dumb ass like you do apparently.  But here is what I can offer, and here is the challenge.

Prove everything you say is true that has come out of your mouth. No bull crap no excuses, and you can choose between two prizes.

https://app.box.com/s/dq9srp7gtqntddiaf0fed2mkvccyj0jl
(I wrote my screen name in the window so you know I am not just googling pictures) And yes I know it is dusty as hell, my shop is three 6k sq buildings and this is the play side, but I never have time to do anything. The building on the other side is connected and that is where I have all the heavy machinery, CNC, water cutter, lathe, ect. So it just fills that building with dust.

Or this
https://app.box.com/s/9uyn4gxv6kfjqww6hzg9x19rto6yv717
(I would choose this if it were me, just cause I love music)

You pay for all shipping ect, which shouldn't be a problem for you. If you cannot prove all the things you say is true, you have two options. Go to another site and leave this place in peace. Or apologize, fix your craziness and attempt to gain knowledge like the other people here.

Deal....??  If you are who you say you are then I get to learn a lesson from reading people wrong. If I am right, then I shall save this forum and myself alot of headache.

Also if you choose neither and happen to win, I will donate one to a charity of your choice and we will split the tax credit.
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Heiwa

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4217 on: April 24, 2016, 02:35:19 AM »

If you think I am going to spend hundreds of hours planning and designing missions to the Moon and Mars, it is not going to happen.  Simply because the information how space travel is done is readily available, it has been done and is available online, the formulas conform with the current understanding of physics that have been consistently proven, and I do not think your challenge is legitimate.

If you prove you have the funds and appoint an unbiased judge then I will reconsider.

The Challenge is just to provide the information in the rules at http://heiwaco.com/chall.htm .

I know of course that information how space travel is done is readily available and available online and that some formulas conform with the current understanding of physics have been proven, etc, etc. The Challenge is not to tell me that. I know how Arianespace sends up satellites. That is easy.

The Challenge is to use that information and, e.g. calculate the fuel used to leave Earth for Moon and Mars with humans aboard. I assume you need a bigger spacecraft going to Mars, which require more fuel. According my calculations you do not get off the ground and if you get off the ground you really need a big amount of fuel to leave Earth orbit, say 250 000 kg, for a minimal space craft with no facilities.

Some people believe that I, an educated, successful engineer living comfortably in a big appartement do not believe in space travel. That is incorrect. What I do not believe in is human space travel, i.e. sending humans up into space. It is a 100% kamikaze trip as you cannot return, re-enter and land.

As nobody has won my Challenge since many years, it seems I am right.

OK, NASA faked it 1969 but it was at the request of corrupt politicians and military fools. It seems they are still running the show.

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Bom Tishop

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4218 on: April 24, 2016, 02:49:28 AM »
Blah blah blah

My challenge to you? Going to man up and make some free money? Its right above your last post, reposted for your convenience.

P.S. that is how you prove funds, not so hard is it? So man up or move on please.. The rules are simple and stated above your prior post, and the two options up for the prize are pictured. No more nonsense, either crap or get off the pot.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 04:42:21 AM by Babyhighspeed »
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DanneJeRusse

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4219 on: April 24, 2016, 05:56:36 AM »

Of course, you know why, this is an online forum where some folks seek attention and will say anything to get it even if it means stacking one fraudulent, deceitful, disingenuous, dishonest post after another while projecting their own failings onto those who seek to expose them.



Yes, some clown, now apparently locked up in a mental institution or similar, started this thread a long time ago to seek attention; he said he had won my Challenge. I informed him he had not. It is the truth. Nothing to lie about.

Yes, that is exactly what I referred, you projecting your own failings onto others who have exposed you, adding yet another fraudulent, deceitful, disingenuous, dishonest post to your ample stack.

No, you don't understand with your stupid post. I just reply to most posts about my popular Challenge. Many people are just jealous about it or sorry they cannot win it. You really have to be clever to win it. You seem not to be it.


Certainly, I'm clever enough to see right through your thin veil of deceit, incredulity and ignorance, and that's all that matters. Your so-called challenge has already been won, but you have determined the challenge is unwinnable, again due to your incredulity and ignorance. I suspect you're a grown adult living in your parents basement and have fabricated everything.

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Bom Tishop

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4220 on: April 24, 2016, 06:15:21 AM »
Exactly good sir....... He is a cancer to this forum. It's one thing having ideas and not swaying from them. I can at least respect people for holding to their beliefs. However, all the lies he has told to belittle people. All the time he has wasted of people attempting to win his "challenge", and all the other negative attributes he brings with him. I have one other idea to attempt to expose him enough to run him off to another forum. Or better yet, have him admit wrong and be a productive forum member (this would be the ideal solution to me).
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markjo

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4221 on: April 24, 2016, 06:37:34 AM »
That's why the Challenge starts in orbit and you have to go from there. If your spacecraft with fuel has mass 300 000 kg in orbit (at certain velocity/altitude) you must evidently tell me how it got there. Rockets today cannot lift 300 000 kg into orbit. It seems you need 15 rockets and then you assemble the spacecraft in orbit. Why not? 
Anders, you need to double check your units.  The mass that the Saturn V lifted into low earth orbit for the moon missions was about 300,000 pounds, which is about 140,000 kilograms.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Heiwa

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4222 on: April 24, 2016, 08:02:16 AM »
That's why the Challenge starts in orbit and you have to go from there. If your spacecraft with fuel has mass 300 000 kg in orbit (at certain velocity/altitude) you must evidently tell me how it got there. Rockets today cannot lift 300 000 kg into orbit. It seems you need 15 rockets and then you assemble the spacecraft in orbit. Why not? 
Anders, you need to double check your units.  The mass that the Saturn V lifted into low earth orbit for the moon missions was about 300,000 pounds, which is about 140,000 kilograms.

My Challenge has nothing to do with Saturn V. I always use kilogram (kg) as unit of mass, Newton (N) unit of force, Joule (J) unit of energy and seconds (s) unit of time at my web site.

Re the amount of fuel little tin box Apollo 11 used to get out of orbit around Earth (translunar injection - LOL) it varies between about 105 000 kg and 286 000 kg depending on what source you use and if you add the mass of rocket/space craft itself, you talk about 160 000 kg or 341 000 kg in orbit.

Saturn V could maybe lift the first but definitely not the second mass into orbit.

I describe the funny mess at http://heiwaco.com/moontravel1.htm .

I think you need about 286 000 kg of fuel to accelerate a very light spacecraft incl. rocket/tank - 55 000 kg - from orbit around Earth and away from Earth so it reaches the Moon, and ... it will not get off the ground using one rocket. You need several rockets, etc, etc. And this Saturn V monster rocket was just an empty Hollywood stage prop mock-up anyway. It looked impressive but ... a hoax.

One objective of the Challenge is to clarify above.

Regardless - as I always repeat: Human space trips are kamikaze trips. You cannot land alive. Re-entry is not possible.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 09:31:42 AM by Heiwa »

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DanneJeRusse

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4223 on: April 24, 2016, 08:10:34 AM »
Regardless - as I always repeat: Human space trips are kamikaze trips. You cannot land alive. Re-entry is not possible.

Translation: I am a liar and a fraud and am trolling the internet yanking chains for shits and giggles.

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Bom Tishop

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4224 on: April 24, 2016, 08:17:44 AM »
Blah blah blah .lie lie lie

Answer my challenge to you, apologize or leave. It is posted multiple times in here as well as a separate thread now. The challenge is simple, unlike you have proven the items put up for the challenge, and am a man of my word. They are valuable items worth your time to provide burden of proof. (Sorry not a million euro, just the most i could afford to risk without causing me distress) No one else here is feeding you until you man up, apologize or leave.

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markjo

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4225 on: April 24, 2016, 09:21:38 AM »
That's why the Challenge starts in orbit and you have to go from there. If your spacecraft with fuel has mass 300 000 kg in orbit (at certain velocity/altitude) you must evidently tell me how it got there. Rockets today cannot lift 300 000 kg into orbit. It seems you need 15 rockets and then you assemble the spacecraft in orbit. Why not? 
Anders, you need to double check your units.  The mass that the Saturn V lifted into low earth orbit for the moon missions was about 300,000 pounds, which is about 140,000 kilograms.

My Challenge has nothing to do with Saturn V. I always use kilogram (kg) as unit of mass, Newton (N) unit of force, Joule (J) unit of energy and seconds (s) unit of time at my web site.

Re the amount of fuel little tin box Apollo 11 used to get out of orbit around Earth (translunar injection - LOL) it varies between about 105 000 kg and 286 000 kg depending on what source you use and if you add the mass of rocket/space craft itself, you talk about 160 000 kg or 341 00 kg in orbit.
Would you care to cite a credible source claiming 341,000 kg?  And no, I don't consider you or your "popular web site" to be a credible source.

Saturn V could maybe lift the first but definitely not the second mass into orbit.
No kidding.  NASA never claimed that it could.

I think you need about 286 000 kg of fuel to accelerate a very light spacecraft incl. rocket/tank - 55 000 kg - from orbit around Earth and away from Earth so it reaches the Moon...
You have been shown repeatedly why you're wrong.  How many more time do you need to be told before you finally get it?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 09:23:24 AM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Heiwa

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4226 on: April 24, 2016, 09:30:30 AM »

Would you care to cite a credible source claiming 341,000 kg?  And no, I don't consider you or your "popular web site" to be a credible source.

Wikipedia! LOL! But it changes all the time. I describe it at my popular web site. Links to other 'credible' (??) sources (NASA) are also there.

BTW - do you really believe in the NASA science fiction fantasies with humans in space?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 09:35:07 AM by Heiwa »

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Bom Tishop

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4227 on: April 24, 2016, 09:41:02 AM »
Flap flap flap flap..  Lie lie lie..I wish someone cared

You obviously will not accept my challenge, so that 100 percent guarantees you are full of crap.. I wish I could see your eye color, I imagine they are brown from the crap. So now.....just leave...be gone liar. Away with you like spoiled milk.

F.Y.I. your ignorant unreadable website full of lies and USELESS dribble is not popular. A 100 people a day is not popular. Especially when you count the views are from people of forums like these scouting your lies and bull sh#t. Hell you post your "website" (I use the term losely), every post. The other 35 views are from you going to admire and worship yourself daily.

Now leave
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 09:42:57 AM by Babyhighspeed »
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Heiwa

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4228 on: April 24, 2016, 10:05:54 AM »

You have been shown repeatedly why you're wrong.  How many more time do you need to be told before you finally get it?

There is nothing wrong with my Challenge (topic) and nobody has won it. I am quite certain about it. Why do you get so upset? My Challenge is fun. It allows people like you to use their brains, e.g. to calculate how much fuel is required for a transient force application for trans-lunar injection or what the lunatics call to transfer a spacecraft in orbit to another trajectory that will end, hopefully, at the Moon, i.e. no transgression.

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Bom Tishop

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Re: I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge
« Reply #4229 on: April 24, 2016, 10:10:16 AM »
Lie lie lie....some more crap...something about a website... Money


Go away
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LordDave is quite alright even for a bleeding heart liberal. Godspeed good sir