I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge

Quote from: Heiwa on April 17, 2016, 10:34:50 PM

Quote from: Woody on April 17, 2016, 07:00:32 PM

Quote from: markjo on April 17, 2016, 06:34:45 PM

Quote from: Heiwa on April 17, 2016, 05:06:06 PM

Hm, so what is a spacecraft travelling from Earth to the Moon in orbit of. The Sun? Some point in space between Earth and Moon. Or Earth. Or the Moon.

It's in a highly elliptical orbit around the earth.  That's pretty much what makes a free return trajectory possible.

Quote from: Heiwa on April 17, 2016, 05:06:06 PM

Why does Arianespace use more fuel today to put a little 1 ton satellite just into orbit around Earth than NASA used to send Apollo to the Moon 1969 or the Shuttle to the ISS 1986?

  What makes you think that they do?  The Ariane 5 is only about 1/5 the mass of the Saturn V.

The Saturn V is capable of putting something like 110 ton payload into LEO, while the Ariane 5 only about 20 tons.

The Ariane 5 does have a worse fuel mass to payload ratio. Simply because it uses solid rocket boosters which have higher fuel densities and lower ISP's.  Other draw backs are they can not be throttled, shut off and reignited.  The benefits are cost, safety, and storage.

If someone would look further into it I would not be surprised that is not the only reason.  Similar to why a 40 passenger bus while having a lower MPG than a 4 passenger car is more efficient transporting people.

The Saturn V sending up Apollo does not exist. It was just fantasy! Like the 90 ton Shuttle that used solid rocket boosters that were several times more effective than Ariane5.

I think it is hard evidence that Apollo and the Shuttles never visited space or the ISS. It was only empty mock-ups all the time. But it is OT - topic is my Challenge and fuel required for a manned space trip to the Moon or Mars while orbiting Earth (LOL).

The ISS orbits Earth every 90 minutes, we are told, and no fuel is required for it. Objects in orbits do not require fuel to keep orbiting.

Objects like spacecrafts going to the Moon or Mars require fuel ... because they are not orbiting anything.

Again you demonstrate your lack of understanding.

...

Are you suggesting that something needs to be under constant power to travel in space?  This is new or I missed you stating it before.

An object in orbit doesn't need any power at all to travel around in space (in orbit). It just orbits for ever! Zero power used. Examples: planets, moons, comets. And they cannot stop orbiting.

My Challenge (topic) is completely different. No orbit at all. A trajectory between A and B in space, e.g. Earth and Moon shall be executed by a spacecraft. It is difficult and any Challenger must describe the trajectory and fuel required.
The speed/direction will change all the time due to influence of Sun, Earth, Moon and other gravity forces.

I assume the pilot will fire the rocket engine(s) now and then to apply a force to get moving and I am curious how and fuel used.

An object in orbit doesn't need any power at all to travel around in space (in orbit). It just orbits for ever! Zero power used. Examples: planets, moons, comets. And they cannot stop orbiting.

Not quite true.  Comets and meteors can, and do, stop orbiting when they run into other bodies, like the earth.

My Challenge (topic) is completely different. No orbit at all. A trajectory between A and B in space, e.g. Earth and Moon shall be executed by a spacecraft. It is difficult and any Challenger must describe the trajectory and fuel required.
The speed/direction will change all the time due to influence of Sun, Earth, Moon and other gravity forces.

And you have been told repeatedly that the trajectory that the Apollo astronauts to the moon was a very highly elliptical orbit around the earth called a free return trajectory.

You do understand what a highly elliptical orbit is, don't you?  It's the type of orbit that comets use to approach fairly close to the sun and then back out beyond the orbit of Neptune..

I assume the pilot will fire the rocket engine(s) now and then to apply a force to get moving and I am curious how and fuel used.

The fuel used is described by the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation.

ps Arienne is not 'your company'.  You may be a small shareholder but you have no management involvement.

Not even. 100% of ArianeSpace is owned by 20 shareholders from across the EU..

The fuel used is described by the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation.

Yes! The fuel becomes high speed exhaust gases ejected from the spacecraft polluting the Universe. That's all. Doesn't win my Challenge. You are supposed to describe a manned space trip. Not filling clean vacuum Universe with pollution.

Anyway, it is off topic as usual. Topic is my popular Challenge that nobody can win for obvious reasons.

Quote from: inquisitive on April 17, 2016, 02:19:58 AM

ps Arienne is not 'your company'.  You may be a small shareholder but you have no management involvement.

Not even. 100% of ArianeSpace is owned by 20 shareholders from across the EU..

Hm, French companies control the majority of Arianespace and I am owner of one of them and collect nice dividends. I don't complain. I just organise my Challenge  about something completely different.

Quote from: Woody on April 18, 2016, 12:21:25 AM

Quote from: Heiwa on April 17, 2016, 10:34:50 PM

Quote from: Woody on April 17, 2016, 07:00:32 PM

Quote from: markjo on April 17, 2016, 06:34:45 PM

Quote from: Heiwa on April 17, 2016, 05:06:06 PM

Hm, so what is a spacecraft travelling from Earth to the Moon in orbit of. The Sun? Some point in space between Earth and Moon. Or Earth. Or the Moon.

It's in a highly elliptical orbit around the earth.  That's pretty much what makes a free return trajectory possible.

Quote from: Heiwa on April 17, 2016, 05:06:06 PM

Why does Arianespace use more fuel today to put a little 1 ton satellite just into orbit around Earth than NASA used to send Apollo to the Moon 1969 or the Shuttle to the ISS 1986?

  What makes you think that they do?  The Ariane 5 is only about 1/5 the mass of the Saturn V.

The Saturn V is capable of putting something like 110 ton payload into LEO, while the Ariane 5 only about 20 tons.

The Ariane 5 does have a worse fuel mass to payload ratio. Simply because it uses solid rocket boosters which have higher fuel densities and lower ISP's.  Other draw backs are they can not be throttled, shut off and reignited.  The benefits are cost, safety, and storage.

If someone would look further into it I would not be surprised that is not the only reason.  Similar to why a 40 passenger bus while having a lower MPG than a 4 passenger car is more efficient transporting people.

The Saturn V sending up Apollo does not exist. It was just fantasy! Like the 90 ton Shuttle that used solid rocket boosters that were several times more effective than Ariane5.

I think it is hard evidence that Apollo and the Shuttles never visited space or the ISS. It was only empty mock-ups all the time. But it is OT - topic is my Challenge and fuel required for a manned space trip to the Moon or Mars while orbiting Earth (LOL).

The ISS orbits Earth every 90 minutes, we are told, and no fuel is required for it. Objects in orbits do not require fuel to keep orbiting.

Objects like spacecrafts going to the Moon or Mars require fuel ... because they are not orbiting anything.

Again you demonstrate your lack of understanding.

...

Are you suggesting that something needs to be under constant power to travel in space?  This is new or I missed you stating it before.

An object in orbit doesn't need any power at all to travel around in space (in orbit). It just orbits for ever! Zero power used. Examples: planets, moons, comets. And they cannot stop orbiting.

My Challenge (topic) is completely different. No orbit at all. A trajectory between A and B in space, e.g. Earth and Moon shall be executed by a spacecraft. It is difficult and any Challenger must describe the trajectory and fuel required.
The speed/direction will change all the time due to influence of Sun, Earth, Moon and other gravity forces.

I assume the pilot will fire the rocket engine(s) now and then to apply a force to get moving and I am curious how and fuel used.

Ariane 5 dry weight around 20 tons.

Shuttle dry weight around 85 tons. 

Yet again you avoid answering a question.

Does density and ISP of a propellant factor in the total mass of the fuel needed?

If it is impossible to travel and navigate in space between the Earth and moon how are satellites placed into orbits?

If the moon orbits the Earth why can something not be placed into an orbit that intersects with the moon?

I would love to see your evidence things do not travel in orbits in space.  At what point does an orbit turn into a trajectory?

How do you tell the difference between a trajectory and orbit between the Earth and moon?  Remember the moon is orbiting the Earth.

You going to avoid these questions?  Say it is not on topic?  Cherry pick from the above?  Ignore it completely?

Quote from: markjo on April 18, 2016, 12:11:46 PM

The fuel used is described by the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation.

Yes! The fuel becomes high speed exhaust gases ejected from the spacecraft polluting the Universe. That's all. Doesn't win my Challenge. You are supposed to describe a manned space trip. Not filling clean vacuum Universe with pollution.

Those high speed exhaust gasses also have momentum, which is what pushes the rocket forwards.  You do understand momentum, don't you?

Anyway, it is off topic as usual. Topic is my popular Challenge that nobody can win for obvious reasons.

To be fair, you derail this discussion as much as anyone with your assorted asides, so you really shouldn't criticize.

Merriam-Webster:

Definition of orbit
1
a :  a path described by one body in its revolution about another (as by the earth about the sun or by an electron about an atomic nucleus); also :  one complete revolution of a body describing such a path
b :  a circular path


Oxford:

1The curved path of a celestial object or spacecraft around a star, planet, or moon, especially a periodic elliptical revolution.

1.1 One complete circuit around an orbited body.

1.2 The state of being on or moving in an orbit:
planets in orbit around the sun

1.3 The path of an electron around an atomic nucleus.


Dictionary.com:

1. the curved path, usually elliptical, described by a planet, satellite, spaceship, etc., around a celestial body, as the sun.


Britannica:

orbit: Earth’s orbit around the Sun [Credit: Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.]in astronomy, path of a body revolving around an attracting centre of mass, as a planet around the Sun or a satellite around a planet.

Seems you maybe using an outdated reference to define an orbit.

Merriam-Webster:

Definition of orbit
1
a :  a path described by one body in its revolution about another (as by the earth about the sun or by an electron about an atomic nucleus); also :  one complete revolution of a body describing such a path
b :  a circular path


Oxford:

1The curved path of a celestial object or spacecraft around a star, planet, or moon, especially a periodic elliptical revolution.

1.1 One complete circuit around an orbited body.

1.2 The state of being on or moving in an orbit:
planets in orbit around the sun

1.3 The path of an electron around an atomic nucleus.


Dictionary.com:

1. the curved path, usually elliptical, described by a planet, satellite, spaceship, etc., around a celestial body, as the sun.


Britannica:

orbit: Earth’s orbit around the Sun [Credit: Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.]in astronomy, path of a body revolving around an attracting centre of mass, as a planet around the Sun or a satellite around a planet.

Seems you maybe using an outdated reference to define an orbit.

No, a manned space trip between Earth and Moon/Mars as per my Challenge (http://heiwaco.com/chall.htm ) is not an orbit as per above definitions. The Challenge trip is a trajectory between two moving heavenly bodies - Earth orbiting Sun at almost constant speed/distance in one plane and Moon orbiting Earth at almost constant speed/distance in another plane (or Mars orbiting Sun) - where the spacecraft's speed and distance from Earth/Moon varies all the time and because the spacecraft is subject to variable gravity forces from Sun, Earth and Moon all the time. It is therefore virtually impossible to calculate or predict the trajectory making space navigation difficult.
Another difficulty is to start into the trajectory at the beginning and stop in the trajectory at the end of the trip in correct locations/times using correct forces. The curvature of the trajectory changes all the time.
In order to win my extremely difficult Challenge you really have to establish the trajectory of your trip beforehand so fuel consumed at start and end to create forces can be calculated in order to establish you can carry it with you. Filling up is not really possible in space.
It is also very easy to get lost in space by firing a rocket in the wrong location in the wrong direction at the wrong time and for the wrong duration of time. Of course the Apollo crews did it manually 1969-1972 maybe just by feeling but to win my Challenge you have to do real calculations and not just invent fantasies. I do not want you to have fun.
The clown starting this thread has not been heard from lately. Maybe ge got crazy or sick or hurt himself trying winning it and is now hospitalized or locked up in some institution. I really am sorry if it is the case.

Quote from: nexzus on April 18, 2016, 12:46:46 PM

Quote from: inquisitive on April 17, 2016, 02:19:58 AM

ps Arienne is not 'your company'.  You may be a small shareholder but you have no management involvement.

Not even. 100% of ArianeSpace is owned by 20 shareholders from across the EU..

Hm, French companies control the majority of Arianespace and I am owner of one of them and collect nice dividends. I don't complain. I just organise my Challenge  about something completely different.

So, you won't have a problem with providing us a Proof of Funds. 

Quote from: nexzus on April 18, 2016, 12:46:46 PM

Quote from: inquisitive on April 17, 2016, 02:19:58 AM

ps Arienne is not 'your company'.  You may be a small shareholder but you have no management involvement.

Not even. 100% of ArianeSpace is owned by 20 shareholders from across the EU..

Hm, French companies control the majority of Arianespace and I am owner of one of them and collect nice dividends. I don't complain. I just organise my Challenge  about something completely different.

Let's see:

Air Liquide SA. Benoit Poiter, CEO/Chairman
Airbus Safran Launchers Holding. Alain Charmeau, CEO and Director of Civil Operations
Centre National d’Etudes Spatiales. Joel Barre, Director General (Also, is owned by the government)
Clemessy SA. Patrick Guerbert, Chairman/CEO

Quote from: Woody on April 18, 2016, 01:38:06 PM

Merriam-Webster:

Definition of orbit
1
a :  a path described by one body in its revolution about another (as by the earth about the sun or by an electron about an atomic nucleus); also :  one complete revolution of a body describing such a path
b :  a circular path


Oxford:

1The curved path of a celestial object or spacecraft around a star, planet, or moon, especially a periodic elliptical revolution.

1.1 One complete circuit around an orbited body.

1.2 The state of being on or moving in an orbit:
planets in orbit around the sun

1.3 The path of an electron around an atomic nucleus.


Dictionary.com:

1. the curved path, usually elliptical, described by a planet, satellite, spaceship, etc., around a celestial body, as the sun.


Britannica:

orbit: Earth’s orbit around the Sun [Credit: Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.]in astronomy, path of a body revolving around an attracting centre of mass, as a planet around the Sun or a satellite around a planet.

Seems you maybe using an outdated reference to define an orbit.

No, a manned space trip between Earth and Moon/Mars as per my Challenge (http://heiwaco.com/chall.htm ) is not an orbit as per above definitions. The Challenge trip is a trajectory between two moving heavenly bodies - Earth orbiting Sun at almost constant speed/distance in one plane and Moon orbiting Earth at almost constant speed/distance in another plane (or Mars orbiting Sun) - where the spacecraft's speed and distance from Earth/Moon varies all the time and because the spacecraft is subject to variable gravity forces from Sun, Earth and Moon all the time. It is therefore virtually impossible to calculate or predict the trajectory making space navigation difficult.
Another difficulty is to start into the trajectory at the beginning and stop in the trajectory at the end of the trip in correct locations/times using correct forces. The curvature of the trajectory changes all the time.
In order to win my extremely difficult Challenge you really have to establish the trajectory of your trip beforehand so fuel consumed at start and end to create forces can be calculated in order to establish you can carry it with you. Filling up is not really possible in space.
It is also very easy to get lost in space by firing a rocket in the wrong location in the wrong direction at the wrong time and for the wrong duration of time. Of course the Apollo crews did it manually 1969-1972 maybe just by feeling but to win my Challenge you have to do real calculations and not just invent fantasies. I do not want you to have fun.
The clown starting this thread has not been heard from lately. Maybe ge got crazy or sick or hurt himself trying winning it and is now hospitalized or locked up in some institution. I really am sorry if it is the case.

So you are not going to explain when a orbit becomes a trajectory?

How about point when it happens in this image:




You still failed to answer why if the moon is orbiting the Earth a vehicle can not be put into an orbit around the Earth that would result in an encounter with the moon.  How come?

Are you going to continue to avoid answering the question about if ISP and density is important to consider when looking at the mass of propellant used?  You are using the total mass of propellant as an argument to support your claim human space flight is a hoax.  You must have considered it since you are an engineer and should understand these things. So why is it not important to consider?

Why do you avoid answering questions?  Seems you just like to pretend any question you have difficulty answering is off topic. 


How about just explain what happens for this scenario and show why Kepler, Newton and Einstein and others are wrong:

A spacecraft in orbit of Earth accelerates towards prograde to raise its orbit on the opposite side.  It continues this maneuver until the apoapsis is around 370,000 km.  This is timed so the spacecraft will be in near the apoapsis when near the moon.

What happens if everything is timed out right?

When does the orbit turn into a trajectory?

If this maneuver is done to avoid the moon what happens?  Would the spacecraft be in a highly elliptical orbit around the Earth?  Does the orbit change into a trajectory only when trying to encounter the moon?

Are you going to continue to avoid answering questions like these?

If you are correct you should have a valid explanation for us. 

No, a manned space trip between Earth and Moon/Mars as per my Challenge (http://heiwaco.com/chall.htm ) is not an orbit as per above definitions. The Challenge trip is a trajectory between two moving heavenly bodies.

Apparently you are unaware that orbit is a synonym of trajectory.

LOL! Please read the requirements of the Challenge - http://heiwaco.com/chall.htm . Can you read? If not, learn to read or ask your mother/father/legal person to read for you.
In order to complete the Challenge you must submit your complete report to me. Not just refer to some Mickey Mouse Disney moon travel software. Good luck!

I have read your challenge and can submit my report to you, however before I start working on it, I'll need to see confirmation that the money exists, is held in escrow by a third party and a contract that will release the funds once the report has been submitted and found to satisfy the challenge. Thanks.

So you are not going to explain when a orbit becomes a trajectory?

How about point when it happens in this image:

It really is a funny picture. Earth is assumed fixed in space and a spacecraft leaves it one way or other - a force is applied, fuel is consumed and the spacecraft heads for the Moon at some speed/direction/time.
During the trip speed is slowed down most of the tiime due to Earth gravity and direction changes all the time. It seems correct. After a while speed increases due to Moon gravity and ... a gravity assisted kick or slingshot suddenly occurs, i.e. the direction is changed >360° while the speed increases and slows down and increases again - really magic. I explain at http://heiwaco.com/moontravel.htm why such a >360° turn cannot take place in space. It is my A, B, C, D why human space travel is not possible and my Challenge is so difficult to win.

According my calculations the spacecraft should either (a) crash on the Moon or miss the Moon and continue out in space, where Earth gravity would stop it and pull it back to Earth again where it would (b) crash on the Earth. 

Thus the picture shows something that cannot happen in reality.  Why do you refer to such nonsense? The picture is a fake!

Quote from: Heiwa on January 09, 2015, 10:03:16 AM

LOL! Please read the requirements of the Challenge - http://heiwaco.com/chall.htm . Can you read? If not, learn to read or ask your mother/father/legal person to read for you.
In order to complete the Challenge you must submit your complete report to me. Not just refer to some Mickey Mouse Disney moon travel software. Good luck!

I have read your challenge and can submit my report to you, however before I start working on it, I'll need to see confirmation that the money exists, is held in escrow by a third party and a contract that will release the funds once the report has been submitted and found to satisfy the challenge. Thanks.

I am happy to hear that you can read and can submit a report. If the report meets the requirements of the Challenge the money will be sent by bank transfer. Don't worry.
But please check that your report is complete before sending it. What is the mass of your spacecraft at departure (kg) and what amount of fuel was used to get going away from Earth (kg) and what was the force (N) applied, etc, etc? And how did you stop, land and take off again on the Moon and when did they occur? How much fuel was used? And re-entry! How did you do it without using any fuel? And how did you solve the n-body question? Simulations?

Quote from: Woody on April 18, 2016, 05:22:18 PM

So you are not going to explain when a orbit becomes a trajectory?

How about point when it happens in this image:

It really is a funny picture. Earth is assumed fixed in space and a spacecraft leaves it one way or other - a force is applied, fuel is consumed and the spacecraft heads for the Moon at some speed/direction/time.
During the trip speed is slowed down most of the tiime due to Earth gravity and direction changes all the time. It seems correct. After a while speed increases due to Moon gravity and ... a gravity assisted kick or slingshot suddenly occurs, i.e. the direction is changed >360° while the speed increases and slows down and increases again - really magic. I explain at http://heiwaco.com/moontravel.htm why such a >360° turn cannot take place in space. It is my A, B, C, D why human space travel is not possible and my Challenge is so difficult to win.

According my calculations the spacecraft should either (a) crash on the Moon or miss the Moon and continue out in space, where Earth gravity would stop it and pull it back to Earth again where it would (b) crash on the Earth. 

Thus the picture shows something that cannot happen in reality.  Why do you refer to such nonsense? The picture is a fake!

The Earth does not move a significant distance in reference to the moon in 6 days, therefore the Earth does not need to move there.

EDIT: You put two scenarios. One is a lunar crash, the other is a flyby.

The first one is not viable with a precise firing of the third stage. The calculations were very precise and they worked to get far enough from the moon to not crash. And the second one could have happened, if the CSM engine didn't fire in the opposite direction to slow enough to achieve a nearly circular orbit. They knew about these scenarios, and they easily found ways to combat them.

Quote from: Heiwa on April 18, 2016, 02:57:53 PM

No, a manned space trip between Earth and Moon/Mars as per my Challenge (http://heiwaco.com/chall.htm ) is not an orbit as per above definitions. The Challenge trip is a trajectory between two moving heavenly bodies.

Apparently you are unaware that orbit is a synonym of trajectory.

That depends on how you define "trajectory".

The NASA cum suis "definition" is that you define a trajectory on a computer.
The physical law definition is that orbit is the result of gravitational laws.

They highly deviate. Orbits are unescapable.

Due to being so popular I have just decided to change the Challenge a little - see http://heiwaco.com/chall.htm .
Now you have to describe the fuel consumption of both (a) a manned Moon return trip and (b) a manned Mars return trip. Before you had the option of chosing one or the other but it is no longer possible.
One reason is that you now can compare the fuel consumption of the two trips.
NASA evidently says either trip is very easy and can be done 2020 or 2037 and the Challenge is to assist NASA with the amount of fuel needed to be carried along.
I look forward to your applications.

Due to being so popular I have just decided to change the Challenge a little - see http://heiwaco.com/chall.htm .
Now you have to describe the fuel consumption of both (a) a manned Moon return trip and (b) a manned Mars return trip. Before you had the option of chosing one or the other but it is no longer possible.
One reason is that you now can compare the fuel consumption of the two trips.
NASA evidently says either trip is very easy and can be done 2020 or 2037 and the Challenge is to assist NASA with the amount of fuel needed to be carried along.
I look forward to your applications.

Pathetic.

Quote from: Woody on April 18, 2016, 05:22:18 PM

So you are not going to explain when a orbit becomes a trajectory?

How about point when it happens in this image:

It really is a funny picture. Earth is assumed fixed in space and a spacecraft leaves it one way or other - a force is applied, fuel is consumed and the spacecraft heads for the Moon at some speed/direction/time.
During the trip speed is slowed down most of the tiime due to Earth gravity and direction changes all the time. It seems correct. After a while speed increases due to Moon gravity and ... a gravity assisted kick or slingshot suddenly occurs, i.e. the direction is changed >360° while the speed increases and slows down and increases again - really magic. I explain at http://heiwaco.com/moontravel.htm why such a >360° turn cannot take place in space. It is my A, B, C, D why human space travel is not possible and my Challenge is so difficult to win.

According my calculations the spacecraft should either (a) crash on the Moon or miss the Moon and continue out in space, where Earth gravity would stop it and pull it back to Earth again where it would (b) crash on the Earth. 

Thus the picture shows something that cannot happen in reality.  Why do you refer to such nonsense? The picture is a fake!

Lets see your calculations.  Then you can explain why Newton, Kepler and Einstein were wrong.

You failed to answer the other part of the scenario.  What happens putting the spacecraft in the same orbit but avoiding encountering the moon?  I am not talking about a flyby, but lets assume the moon and spacecraft will be on opposite sides of the Earth when apoapsis is reached. 

Will it still crash on Earth?

Are you going to explain when an orbit becomes a trajectory?

I still see you are claiming NASA says a trip to Mars will be easy.  I thought I pointed out to you in the link you provided they said the exact opposite.  If I am wrong why not point out where they said it was easy?  What I read is they said something along the line of space travel is one of the most difficult endeavors humankind has ever done.

As for the image, are you able to picture things relative to each other?  In this case the Earth is the reference point with the moon and spacecraft orbiting it. 

You also seem to be saying gravity only effects orbits sometimes and not others.  Why would the moon gravity not influence the orbit of the spacecraft?  I point out below why it would not crash into the moon if going fast enough.

You did get one thing right.  When heading towards the apoapsis a spacecraft will lose momentum. When heading towards the periapsis it will gain momentum.  Since it is falling it makes sense.

Where you fail is it will crash back on Earth.  The same reason satellites do not fall back to Earth.  If it is falling fast enough it can fall past the Earth.

Still not going to answer if ISP and density of a propellant should be considered when comparing mass between them?  You must have considered it when you determined the fuel mass is evidence that the Shuttle and Saturn V were used for fake missions.

Quote from: Heiwa on April 18, 2016, 08:53:01 PM

Quote from: Woody on April 18, 2016, 05:22:18 PM

So you are not going to explain when a orbit becomes a trajectory?

How about point when it happens in this image:

It really is a funny picture. Earth is assumed fixed in space and a spacecraft leaves it one way or other - a force is applied, fuel is consumed and the spacecraft heads for the Moon at some speed/direction/time.
During the trip speed is slowed down most of the tiime due to Earth gravity and direction changes all the time. It seems correct. After a while speed increases due to Moon gravity and ... a gravity assisted kick or slingshot suddenly occurs, i.e. the direction is changed >360° while the speed increases and slows down and increases again - really magic. I explain at http://heiwaco.com/moontravel.htm why such a >360° turn cannot take place in space. It is my A, B, C, D why human space travel is not possible and my Challenge is so difficult to win.

According my calculations the spacecraft should either (a) crash on the Moon or miss the Moon and continue out in space, where Earth gravity would stop it and pull it back to Earth again where it would (b) crash on the Earth. 

Thus the picture shows something that cannot happen in reality.  Why do you refer to such nonsense? The picture is a fake!

Lets see your calculations.  Then you can explain why Newton, Kepler and Einstein were wrong.

You failed to answer the other part of the scenario.  What happens putting the spacecraft in the same orbit but avoiding encountering the moon?  I am not talking about a flyby, but lets assume the moon and spacecraft will be on opposite sides of the Earth when apoapsis is reached. 

Will it still crash on Earth?

Are you going to explain when an orbit becomes a trajectory?

My calculations you find at my popular website about space travel. It has >300 visitors/day!

Newton, Kepler and Einstein never investigated the problems of human space travel and, if alive today, would probably fail the Heiwa Challenge. Newton and Einstein had some ideas about gravity and Kepler and Einstein about orbits but none ever considered human space travel.

What happens if you send a spacecraft straight up forgetting the Moon? Take a US InterContinental Ballistic Missile! It is sent up in space to say 1 600 km altitude, where it stops to drop down again by gravity on Moscow to explode and wipe out Putin & Co. Very naughty.

To send up something like an ICBM to 1 600 km altitude requires a certain amount of energy/fuel/force/speed applied and it takes a certain time say 10 minutes. Say that the max speed going up is 9 000 m/s, it is then 0 at 1 600 km altitude and then it becomes 9 000 m/s again, when dropping down into the atmosphere again where ... it is vaporized after about 10 minutes. Any student of the Heiwa Challenge can do the calculations. They are basic

US Department of Nuclear War and Destruction says it is not true! A heat shield is fitted on the ICBM and the ICBM is not vaporized at re-entry. No, the atmosphere brakes the ICBM, when it drops almost vertically on Moscow and then BOOM - Moscow is vaporized.

Apollo re-entered almost horizontally, while ICBMs re-enter almost vertically but heat shields work anywhere ... in the sick minds of space re-entry experts. It is hilarious. Imagine all these US nuclear war generals doing ... nothing.

An orbit is the path of an object around another object in space. No fuel is required. If you apply a force to one object in orbit, it will leave the orbit and enter a trajectory going somewhere else.

Quote from: DanneJeRusse on April 18, 2016, 07:37:12 PM

Quote from: Heiwa on January 09, 2015, 10:03:16 AM

LOL! Please read the requirements of the Challenge - http://heiwaco.com/chall.htm . Can you read? If not, learn to read or ask your mother/father/legal person to read for you.
In order to complete the Challenge you must submit your complete report to me. Not just refer to some Mickey Mouse Disney moon travel software. Good luck!

I have read your challenge and can submit my report to you, however before I start working on it, I'll need to see confirmation that the money exists, is held in escrow by a third party and a contract that will release the funds once the report has been submitted and found to satisfy the challenge. Thanks.

I am happy to hear that you can read and can submit a report. If the report meets the requirements of the Challenge the money will be sent by bank transfer. Don't worry.
But please check that your report is complete before sending it. What is the mass of your spacecraft at departure (kg) and what amount of fuel was used to get going away from Earth (kg) and what was the force (N) applied, etc, etc? And how did you stop, land and take off again on the Moon and when did they occur? How much fuel was used? And re-entry! How did you do it without using any fuel? And how did you solve the n-body question? Simulations?

I'm not worried about your challenge as it appears to be quite simple, what I am worried about is the money and would like to see confirmation, a contract and who holds in it escrow, please supply this information, thanks.

Due to being so popular I have just decided to change the Challenge a little - see http://heiwaco.com/chall.htm .
Now you have to describe the fuel consumption of both (a) a manned Moon return trip and (b) a manned Mars return trip. Before you had the option of chosing one or the other but it is no longer possible.

That is known as moving the goal posts and is considered poor form, if not down right illegal for an official, legally binding challenge.

NASA evidently says either trip is very easy and can be done 2020 or 2037 and the Challenge is to assist NASA with the amount of fuel needed to be carried along.

I don't NASA ever say that either trip is easy.  Perhaps you are confusing the concepts of "possible" and "easy".

Quote from: Heiwa on April 18, 2016, 09:03:13 PM

Quote from: DanneJeRusse on April 18, 2016, 07:37:12 PM

Quote from: Heiwa on January 09, 2015, 10:03:16 AM

LOL! Please read the requirements of the Challenge - http://heiwaco.com/chall.htm . Can you read? If not, learn to read or ask your mother/father/legal person to read for you.
In order to complete the Challenge you must submit your complete report to me. Not just refer to some Mickey Mouse Disney moon travel software. Good luck!

I have read your challenge and can submit my report to you, however before I start working on it, I'll need to see confirmation that the money exists, is held in escrow by a third party and a contract that will release the funds once the report has been submitted and found to satisfy the challenge. Thanks.

I am happy to hear that you can read and can submit a report. If the report meets the requirements of the Challenge the money will be sent by bank transfer. Don't worry.
But please check that your report is complete before sending it. What is the mass of your spacecraft at departure (kg) and what amount of fuel was used to get going away from Earth (kg) and what was the force (N) applied, etc, etc? And how did you stop, land and take off again on the Moon and when did they occur? How much fuel was used? And re-entry! How did you do it without using any fuel? And how did you solve the n-body question? Simulations?

I'm not worried about your challenge as it appears to be quite simple, what I am worried about is the money and would like to see confirmation, a contract and who holds in it escrow, please supply this information, thanks.

Just follow the Challenge rules. Do a serious application and it will be reviewed. But it is not simple. It is very difficult. The MONEY. It is there. Trust me.

Quote from: Heiwa on April 18, 2016, 09:54:31 PM

Due to being so popular I have just decided to change the Challenge a little - see http://heiwaco.com/chall.htm .
Now you have to describe the fuel consumption of both (a) a manned Moon return trip and (b) a manned Mars return trip. Before you had the option of chosing one or the other but it is no longer possible.

That is known as moving the goal posts and is considered poor form, if not down right illegal for an official, legally binding challenge.

Well, you have to accept the latest requirements that do not change much. You just must describe both trips to win. Before it was just one and the other. FYI, if you need an official, legally binding, not illegal Challenge contract you have to visit my office and it will be signed. I never sign illegal documents and I wonder why you want me to sign one.
Are you real. Or just one of many sick clowns on this forum?

Quote from: DanneJeRusse on April 19, 2016, 05:12:47 AM

Quote from: Heiwa on April 18, 2016, 09:03:13 PM

Quote from: DanneJeRusse on April 18, 2016, 07:37:12 PM

Quote from: Heiwa on January 09, 2015, 10:03:16 AM

LOL! Please read the requirements of the Challenge - http://heiwaco.com/chall.htm . Can you read? If not, learn to read or ask your mother/father/legal person to read for you.
In order to complete the Challenge you must submit your complete report to me. Not just refer to some Mickey Mouse Disney moon travel software. Good luck!

I have read your challenge and can submit my report to you, however before I start working on it, I'll need to see confirmation that the money exists, is held in escrow by a third party and a contract that will release the funds once the report has been submitted and found to satisfy the challenge. Thanks.

I am happy to hear that you can read and can submit a report. If the report meets the requirements of the Challenge the money will be sent by bank transfer. Don't worry.
But please check that your report is complete before sending it. What is the mass of your spacecraft at departure (kg) and what amount of fuel was used to get going away from Earth (kg) and what was the force (N) applied, etc, etc? And how did you stop, land and take off again on the Moon and when did they occur? How much fuel was used? And re-entry! How did you do it without using any fuel? And how did you solve the n-body question? Simulations?

I'm not worried about your challenge as it appears to be quite simple, what I am worried about is the money and would like to see confirmation, a contract and who holds in it escrow, please supply this information, thanks.

Just follow the Challenge rules. Do a serious application and it will be reviewed. But it is not simple. It is very difficult. The MONEY. It is there. Trust me.

Sorry, but what I described is how these challenges work, you MUST transfer the money to a third party to place in escrow and then provide a contract. This is very simple to do, not difficult at all. You can review the report, but then so does the third party to make sure the money gets released. Trust most certainly is the issue, that's why challenges such as these are made this way. If you can't do that, then your challenge is not valid.

Quote from: DanneJeRusse on April 19, 2016, 05:12:47 AM

Quote from: Heiwa on April 18, 2016, 09:03:13 PM

Quote from: DanneJeRusse on April 18, 2016, 07:37:12 PM

Quote from: Heiwa on January 09, 2015, 10:03:16 AM

LOL! Please read the requirements of the Challenge - http://heiwaco.com/chall.htm . Can you read? If not, learn to read or ask your mother/father/legal person to read for you.
In order to complete the Challenge you must submit your complete report to me. Not just refer to some Mickey Mouse Disney moon travel software. Good luck!

I have read your challenge and can submit my report to you, however before I start working on it, I'll need to see confirmation that the money exists, is held in escrow by a third party and a contract that will release the funds once the report has been submitted and found to satisfy the challenge. Thanks.

I am happy to hear that you can read and can submit a report. If the report meets the requirements of the Challenge the money will be sent by bank transfer. Don't worry.
But please check that your report is complete before sending it. What is the mass of your spacecraft at departure (kg) and what amount of fuel was used to get going away from Earth (kg) and what was the force (N) applied, etc, etc? And how did you stop, land and take off again on the Moon and when did they occur? How much fuel was used? And re-entry! How did you do it without using any fuel? And how did you solve the n-body question? Simulations?

I'm not worried about your challenge as it appears to be quite simple, what I am worried about is the money and would like to see confirmation, a contract and who holds in it escrow, please supply this information, thanks.

Just follow the Challenge rules. Do a serious application and it will be reviewed. But it is not simple. It is very difficult. The MONEY. It is there. Trust me.

that's the problem.  NOBODY trusts you.  You have repeatedly avoided proving you have the money.  Any reasonable person would conclude it is because you don't have it.  Stop stalling.  Show your proof.

Quote from: Heiwa on April 19, 2016, 05:29:01 AM

Quote from: DanneJeRusse on April 19, 2016, 05:12:47 AM

Quote from: Heiwa on April 18, 2016, 09:03:13 PM

Quote from: DanneJeRusse on April 18, 2016, 07:37:12 PM

Quote from: Heiwa on January 09, 2015, 10:03:16 AM

LOL! Please read the requirements of the Challenge - http://heiwaco.com/chall.htm . Can you read? If not, learn to read or ask your mother/father/legal person to read for you.
In order to complete the Challenge you must submit your complete report to me. Not just refer to some Mickey Mouse Disney moon travel software. Good luck!

I have read your challenge and can submit my report to you, however before I start working on it, I'll need to see confirmation that the money exists, is held in escrow by a third party and a contract that will release the funds once the report has been submitted and found to satisfy the challenge. Thanks.

I am happy to hear that you can read and can submit a report. If the report meets the requirements of the Challenge the money will be sent by bank transfer. Don't worry.
But please check that your report is complete before sending it. What is the mass of your spacecraft at departure (kg) and what amount of fuel was used to get going away from Earth (kg) and what was the force (N) applied, etc, etc? And how did you stop, land and take off again on the Moon and when did they occur? How much fuel was used? And re-entry! How did you do it without using any fuel? And how did you solve the n-body question? Simulations?

I'm not worried about your challenge as it appears to be quite simple, what I am worried about is the money and would like to see confirmation, a contract and who holds in it escrow, please supply this information, thanks.

Just follow the Challenge rules. Do a serious application and it will be reviewed. But it is not simple. It is very difficult. The MONEY. It is there. Trust me.

that's the problem.  NOBODY trusts you.  You have repeatedly avoided proving you have the money.  Any reasonable person would conclude it is because you don't have it.  Stop stalling.  Show your proof.

Unfortunately, it's not just about "showing us the money." he must provide a third party with a contract who oversees the transaction and confirms the report meets the challenges criteria. Once he produces the challenge, the criteria and the contract, he transfers the money, after that, he has no say in the matter as to the money being released.

Quote from: frenat on April 19, 2016, 05:59:50 AM

Quote from: Heiwa on April 19, 2016, 05:29:01 AM

Quote from: DanneJeRusse on April 19, 2016, 05:12:47 AM

Quote from: Heiwa on April 18, 2016, 09:03:13 PM

Quote from: DanneJeRusse on April 18, 2016, 07:37:12 PM

Quote from: Heiwa on January 09, 2015, 10:03:16 AM

LOL! Please read the requirements of the Challenge - http://heiwaco.com/chall.htm . Can you read? If not, learn to read or ask your mother/father/legal person to read for you.
In order to complete the Challenge you must submit your complete report to me. Not just refer to some Mickey Mouse Disney moon travel software. Good luck!

I have read your challenge and can submit my report to you, however before I start working on it, I'll need to see confirmation that the money exists, is held in escrow by a third party and a contract that will release the funds once the report has been submitted and found to satisfy the challenge. Thanks.

I am happy to hear that you can read and can submit a report. If the report meets the requirements of the Challenge the money will be sent by bank transfer. Don't worry.
But please check that your report is complete before sending it. What is the mass of your spacecraft at departure (kg) and what amount of fuel was used to get going away from Earth (kg) and what was the force (N) applied, etc, etc? And how did you stop, land and take off again on the Moon and when did they occur? How much fuel was used? And re-entry! How did you do it without using any fuel? And how did you solve the n-body question? Simulations?

I'm not worried about your challenge as it appears to be quite simple, what I am worried about is the money and would like to see confirmation, a contract and who holds in it escrow, please supply this information, thanks.

Just follow the Challenge rules. Do a serious application and it will be reviewed. But it is not simple. It is very difficult. The MONEY. It is there. Trust me.

that's the problem.  NOBODY trusts you.  You have repeatedly avoided proving you have the money.  Any reasonable person would conclude it is because you don't have it.  Stop stalling.  Show your proof.

Unfortunately, it's not just about "showing us the money." he must provide a third party with a contract who oversees the transaction and confirms the report meets the challenges criteria. Once he produces the challenge, the criteria and the contract, he transfers the money, after that, he has no say in the matter as to the money being released.

I agree, ultimately that is what he should do.  But he won't ever get to that point because he can't even prove he has the money in the first place.  He has been asked for proof for multiple years and continually avoids it.  This whole challenge is just a way for him to get attention.