Angle to the sun

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Angle to the sun
« on: December 29, 2014, 04:39:57 AM »
Iím from Finland. Thatís pretty north, right? We know that somewhere in the world sun occasionally shines directly from above. Here in Finland it never does (we are way too north). In Johannesburg, South Africa it does. People in Johannesburg will see the sun directly above them, but people south from there wonít because sun doesnít go that far south.
Distance between Helsinki, Finland and Johannesburg, South Africa is roughly 6000 miles. You guys say that the sun is 3000 miles above earth. Well, now we can calculate the angle to the sun: tanA = 3000/6000. That makes A (the angle) about 26 degrees. So (according to you guys) if Iím watching the sun from Helsinki, it never goes lower than 26 degrees above the horizon. Still I see it every day go below the horizon and next morning it rises back.
How can you explain that? I know you say itís the perspective, but come on. Object 26 degrees above the horizon canít just vanish behind the horizon.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Angle to the sun
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2014, 07:32:20 AM »
Here's a question.

If the angle of the sun were a reflection from Earth, meaning you are looking at the sun from anywhere on Earth. Where would the initial light eminate from, assuming that energy was coming from Earth?

Re: Angle to the sun
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2014, 12:07:47 PM »
Here's a question.

If the angle of the sun were a reflection from Earth, meaning you are looking at the sun from anywhere on Earth. Where would the initial light eminate from, assuming that energy was coming from Earth?

What? Scepti do you even think out your own questions/statements before you post?

IF - the earth is flat
AND - the light we see (as the sun) is reflected from a source on the ground
AND - there is a reflective bowl covering the disk (as you often describe )
THEN - we could expect to see the following:
     1 - the sun would never go near the horizon - let alone below it
     2 - we would be able to see all other lights reflected in the sky at night
     3 - just like in any flat earth model there would be no night ever

Mnova : just a tip.... Basic jr high trig will be useless here. It's too simple and provides too much predictive capability for a RE model.
Your god was nailed to a cross. Mine carries a hammer...... any questions?

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sceptimatic

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Re: Angle to the sun
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2014, 01:15:29 PM »
Here's a question.

If the angle of the sun were a reflection from Earth, meaning you are looking at the sun from anywhere on Earth. Where would the initial light eminate from, assuming that energy was coming from Earth?

What? Scepti do you even think out your own questions/statements before you post?

IF - the earth is flat
AND - the light we see (as the sun) is reflected from a source on the ground
AND - there is a reflective bowl covering the disk (as you often describe )
THEN - we could expect to see the following:
     1 - the sun would never go near the horizon - let alone below it
     2 - we would be able to see all other lights reflected in the sky at night
     3 - just like in any flat earth model there would be no night ever

Mnova : just a tip.... Basic jr high trig will be useless here. It's too simple and provides too much predictive capability for a RE model.
You didn't answer my question.

Re: Angle to the sun
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2014, 07:51:37 AM »
Here's a question.

If the angle of the sun were a reflection from Earth, meaning you are looking at the sun from anywhere on Earth. Where would the initial light eminate from, assuming that energy was coming from Earth?

What? Scepti do you even think out your own questions/statements before you post?

IF - the earth is flat
AND - the light we see (as the sun) is reflected from a source on the ground
AND - there is a reflective bowl covering the disk (as you often describe )
THEN - we could expect to see the following:
     1 - the sun would never go near the horizon - let alone below it
     2 - we would be able to see all other lights reflected in the sky at night
     3 - just like in any flat earth model there would be no night ever

Mnova : just a tip.... Basic jr high trig will be useless here. It's too simple and provides too much predictive capability for a RE model.
You didn't answer my question.

I did in fact answer your question. That is what the IF AND AND THEN statements were. Filling in the assumptions of your question then making a set of predictions based on the model.

In the case of sun light actually being reflected light from the ground: One can predict that there would be no night time if the source is on. That why there is a reflective bowl behind headlight in cars. So an intense small light source can be used to direct and illuminate a wide area. 

What is the source on the ground?
Where is the source on the ground?
How is it Powered?
What is the shape of the reflective dome?
What predictions can be made about these things that can help us understand the reality that you suggest?
Your god was nailed to a cross. Mine carries a hammer...... any questions?

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Pongo

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Re: Angle to the sun
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2014, 08:18:27 AM »
Light dissipates as it moves through atmosphere.  What you think is a sunset is really just atmosphere blocking the light.  Much like how a diver soon finds the ocean dark as light passes through water.

Re: Angle to the sun
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2014, 08:41:07 AM »
Light dissipates as it moves through atmosphere.  What you think is a sunset is really just atmosphere blocking the light.  Much like how a diver soon finds the ocean dark as light passes through water.
Yet the sun moves through the sky for any given position and observations at different times and places show a round earth.

Re: Angle to the sun
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2014, 11:52:32 AM »
Here's a question.

If the angle of the sun were a reflection from Earth, meaning you are looking at the sun from anywhere on Earth. Where would the initial light eminate from, assuming that energy was coming from Earth?

There are are some important factors you have left out, leaving us to make assumptions about the scenario.

Regardless of that, the short answer to your question is: There is not any single place on earth the source can be to cause the Sun to appear in the sky in the location it appears, from any location on earth, after being reflected from some surface in the sky. Period.

Knowing you won't accept this simple answer, let's examine possibilities.

The analysis depends on an optics principle so well established that it's accepted as fact - angle of reflection (r) equals angle of incidence (i). If you're going to insist that this is not a criterion, then you're on your own. Assuming that this principle of optics does apply, it's still not possible to formulate a meaningful answer without knowing:

The shape of whatever surface the Sun is being reflected from and whether the reflector is specular (like a mirror) or diffuse (like a wall or movie screen). Unless you give us something specific, we have to consider the obvious possibilities.

Specular reflections will be considered to be perfect - that is, no light is scattered or absorbed, only reflected according to i = r.

1) Specular hemispherical dome over a disc-shaped earth.
...1A) Source is located at the center of the disc, thus the center of the dome.
...All the light will be reflected directly back to the source. It will not be seen anywhere else.

...1B) Source located at some other point on the disc.
...An image[nb]The image won't be perfect because of spherical aberration, but we will ignore this secondary effect.[/nb] of the source will be formed on the surface of the disc at a point on the opposite side of center at the same distance from the center. The source will appear to fill the sky if you're within the image and not be visible at all elsewhere. It will also be very hot within the image because all the energy from the source is concentrated into the image.

Other shapes for the dome (flatter section of a sphere, paraboloidal, etc.) will produce similar effects, but the image formed on the surface will be unfocused, and the entire sky will not be uniformly illuminated (but still won't look like the Sun) if you're standing in the unfocused image. If it becomes flatter and flatter, it will become more and more like scenario 2, below.

OK, that's not working. Let's try something else.

2) Specular plane reflector at some constant height above the disc.
...2A) Source is located at the center of the disc.
...The reflection of the source will appear in the sky in the direction of the center of the disc from everywhere on the disc. The angle varies from straight up at the center, decreasing nonlinearly to 45į at a distance from the center twice the height of the plane reflector, and continuing to decrease more slowly as you get further away. If the center of the disc is the north pole, the Sun is always due north of you. The Sun does not appear to move in the sky unless you move; it's always due north, but its apparent height changes as E = tan-1(2H/D) where E is the angle above the horizon, tan-1 is the arc tangent function, H is the height of the reflector and D is your distance from the source (S and D must be in the same units). The apparent size of the source decreases as you get further away as a function of SA = 2 tan-1(S/(2(D2 + (2H)2)1/2)). SA is the apparent size (an angle), S is the linear size of the source (in miles, meters, furlongs, whatever), H and D as above (use the same units for S, H, and D).

...2A doesn't work.

...2B) Source located at some other point on the disc.
...As above, but the reflection is not due north at all times.
......2Bi) The source moves around the disc at a constant distance from the center.
......The reflection will appear to "orbit" in the sky, but will never reach the horizon from anywhere, and change size (smallest when lowest in the sky). If you're closer to the rim than the circle the source follows, its reflection will trace a sort of oval in the sky centered on the direction of the center of the disc. Also, wouldn't a lot of people see that sucker (and get out of its way!) as it moves in a circular path on the surface?

......2Bii) The source moves around the disc in a circle not a constant distance from the center.
......As above. If you're anywhere outside the circle the source is following, the reflection will stay in one side of the sky, centered over the direction to the center of whatever circle the source is following. Same problem with that "big, bright thing" following a path on the surface as above.

...OK, so it's not 2B.

3) Plane specular reflector tilted with respect to the disc. Source is located at the center of the disc. Reflector moves around the outside of the disc once per day.
...3A) Reflector at fixed angle
...Reflection circles the sky at an elevation that depends on the angle of tilt and your distance from the reflector. Sun can skim horizon if reflector is vertical (and source on surface). Size changes as height changes. Math looks complicated; do it yourself if you care.
...3B) Reflector tilts up and down through the day.
...Reflection circles the sky at an elevation that depends on the angle of tilt and your distance from the reflector. Size changes as height changes. You could probably devise a way for the reflection to trace the path of the actual Sun, including rising and setting, if you synchronize the tilt with azimuth, but only for one point on the disc; everyone else is screwed. Math still looks complicated. Everything else (stars, the Moon) is on its own.

If anyone can think of other configurations, be my guest.

Since specular reflections seem to be a lost cause, let's consider a diffuse reflector.

4) Diffuse hemispherical dome over a disc-shaped earth.
...1A) Source is a projector located at the center of the disc, thus the center of the dome.
...This is essentially a planetarium. In a planetarium, you can project a starscape or the sun in a way that to varying degrees realistically mimics what we actually see in the sky, so it should be possible to do the sky itself this way except the entire audience in a planetarium sees the same show at the same time - no sunset for some while the Sun is rising for others when it's noon here and the stars are out there (there's always something, isn't there).

Similar problems with a plane diffuse screen.

Unless you can think of a system not covered here, or elect to suspend the laws of Physics, we're left with the original short answer.

There is not any single place on earth the source can be to cause the Sun to appear in the sky in the location it appears, from any location on earth, after being reflected from some surface in the sky. Period.

Sorry.  :(  I tried.
 
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Angle to the sun
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2014, 12:12:38 PM »
Light dissipates as it moves through atmosphere.  What you think is a sunset is really just atmosphere blocking the light.  Much like how a diver soon finds the ocean dark as light passes through water.

Why does the atmosphere during a sunset look exactly like land or water then? Why is the light suddenly cut off rather than continuously fading?
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I am pompous, self-righteous, thin skinned, and smug.

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Pongo

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Re: Angle to the sun
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2014, 05:39:57 AM »
Light dissipates as it moves through atmosphere.  What you think is a sunset is really just atmosphere blocking the light.  Much like how a diver soon finds the ocean dark as light passes through water.

Why does the atmosphere during a sunset look exactly like land or water then? Why is the light suddenly cut off rather than continuously fading?

I don't understand the question.  The atmolayer looks exactly like land or water to you during a sunset?

Re: Angle to the sun
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2014, 06:54:30 AM »
Light dissipates as it moves through atmosphere.  What you think is a sunset is really just atmosphere blocking the light.  Much like how a diver soon finds the ocean dark as light passes through water.

Why does the atmosphere during a sunset look exactly like land or water then? Why is the light suddenly cut off rather than continuously fading?

I don't understand the question.  The atmolayer looks exactly like land or water to you during a sunset?

I believe the question was more like: Then why does what we see look the way it does (sun dropping behind/below our visual horizon), instead of a steady reduction of intensity until it is dark.
Your god was nailed to a cross. Mine carries a hammer...... any questions?

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iWitness

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Re: Angle to the sun
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2014, 08:10:34 AM »
I personally think the Sun is only 100-200~ miles up at times, but that's just me. Also, the sun takes different courses at different times of the year. Read the book of Enoch for a detailed description of the courses of the luminaries.

Disclaimer: I am confused. Everything I say is speculative and not admissible in a court of law; however, I am neither insane nor a threat to myself or others. I am simply curious about everything in life and enjoy talking about crazy shit. Oh, & btw I like turtles.

Re: Angle to the sun
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2014, 09:16:23 AM »
I personally think the Sun is only 100-200~ miles up at times, but that's just me. Also, the sun takes different courses at different times of the year. Read the book of Enoch for a detailed description of the courses of the luminaries.


If it were that high it would not explain the angles it is seen from at different times of day from different places.  See sunrise and set tables.

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robintex

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Re: Angle to the sun
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2014, 09:24:41 AM »
I personally think the Sun is only 100-200~ miles up at times, but that's just me. Also, the sun takes different courses at different times of the year. Read the book of Enoch for a detailed description of the courses of the luminaries.



iWitness Why do you keep persisting  in this type of photograph and why do you "think" the sun "is only100-200 miles up at times" ?. Even your flat earth colleagues estimate the distance as 3000 miles. But there is even considerably a bit of disagreement amongst flat earthers- some say 15 Kilometers.

The real truth of the matter is that the sun is some 93 million miles distance from the earth. It is a fact, it is proven evidence and no matter how much you deny it, it still remains a fact.

I asked you some questions on another thread, but you never had the courtesy to answer them.

So, once again, how do you base your "think" ? There must be some basis for your "think" ?  Or is there ?

PS-There is no way of knowing the size and distance of the sun from that photograph if you knew anything about photography. Those "rays" from the sun are simply what is known as "lens flare." Or "the star burst effect." It just has do with the lens or the mechanism of the camera.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 11:15:42 AM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

Re: Angle to the sun
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2014, 12:56:14 PM »
Light dissipates as it moves through atmosphere.  What you think is a sunset is really just atmosphere blocking the light.  Much like how a diver soon finds the ocean dark as light passes through water.

Why does the atmosphere during a sunset look exactly like land or water then? Why is the light suddenly cut off rather than continuously fading?

I don't understand the question.  The atmolayer looks exactly like land or water to you during a sunset?



See that dark area obscuring part of the sun? According to you, that's the atmosphere (or atmolayer as you referred to it the second time, try and be consistent). Your exact words: "What you think is a sunset is really just atmosphere blocking the light". Which means the thing that I would have identified as ground or water is atmolayer masquerading as it.
 ;D
Founder member of the League Of Scientific Gentlemen and Mademoiselles des Connaissances.
I am pompous, self-righteous, thin skinned, and smug.

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robintex

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Re: Angle to the sun
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2014, 04:27:18 PM »
It seems that any time iWitness presents his "I think it is 100-200 miles" (the distance from the earth to the sun) he disappears from the scene when the question is asked for the reason for this figure. On another thread he gave as his apparent reason that this was from "the rays from the sun." But when it was explained these"rays" were simply due to the mechanisms and lenses of the camera no replies were received from iWistness.  If  he would just clarify his reasoning for this measurement, I would receive it with no further questions. I have already answered my questions to the photo to my  satisfaction - as well as it seems to others. If iWitness was familiar with photography he would recognize those "rays"from the sun as simply what are referred to as "star bursts" or "lens flares" to photographers. Several examples may be found by google-ing on those words.

If iWitness believes that the moon and the sun are the same "100-200 Miles" distance, one of the methods as to how the "Round Earth" measurements  of the distance from the earth to the moon were made was given in detail on another thread. When asked how and what iWitness' methods and results were made no reply was ever received after repeated requests.

If jroa will review posts it would seem that "ice ring" and "ice wall" are used interchangeably by both Round Earthers and Flat Earthers.

Also this question of the horizon is another case in which reality defeats so-called Flat Earth Theory...By quite a few posters.













« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 04:47:45 PM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

?

robintex

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Re: Angle to the sun
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2014, 04:57:30 PM »
Light dissipates as it moves through atmosphere.  What you think is a sunset is really just atmosphere blocking the light.  Much like how a diver soon finds the ocean dark as light passes through water.

Why does the atmosphere during a sunset look exactly like land or water then? Why is the light suddenly cut off rather than continuously fading?

I don't understand the question.  The atmolayer looks exactly like land or water to you during a sunset?



See that dark area obscuring part of the sun? According to you, that's the atmosphere (or atmolayer as you referred to it the second time, try and be consistent). Your exact words: "What you think is a sunset is really just atmosphere blocking the light". Which means the thing that I would have identified as ground or water is atmolayer masquerading as it.
 ;D

Why isn't the atmosphere (atmolayer ?) blocking the entire sun ? Why would part of the sun be bright and part of the sun be dark if this was due to the atmosphere (atmolayer ?) on the flat earth ? Why would the setting sun be at the edge of the earth instead of higher in the sky on the flat earth ? Another case of "bendy light" ?
If this was a setting sun  on the flat earth it would all appear much darker if this was a case of "atmosphere (atmolayer ?) blocking the light" ? Why ? Why ?
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

?

Goth

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Re: Angle to the sun
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2015, 03:16:54 AM »



The Flat Sky

Re: Angle to the sun
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2015, 10:47:48 AM »
Come on Pongo, finish what you started.  :D
Founder member of the League Of Scientific Gentlemen and Mademoiselles des Connaissances.
I am pompous, self-righteous, thin skinned, and smug.

Re: Angle to the sun
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2015, 07:30:24 AM »
Here's a question.

If the angle of the sun were a reflection from Earth, meaning you are looking at the sun from anywhere on Earth. Where would the initial light eminate from, assuming that energy was coming from Earth?
Heh, trying to get other people to work out how your ice dome nonsense could work?  Cute.  ;)
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