GLOBAL CONSPIRACY

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earth is a stage

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Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1230 on: March 20, 2015, 01:26:07 PM »
... relative to the moving stars.

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cikljamas

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Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1231 on: March 22, 2015, 08:41:21 AM »
Very nice video : FLAT EARTH THEORY : " class="bbc_link" target="_blank">
Why Don't More Scientists reject the theory of Evolution - Phillip E. Johnson : " class="bbc_link" target="_blank">

Where is the evidence for evolution:

University of California Berkeley Professor Jonathan Wells Evolution Exposed : " class="bbc_link" target="_blank">
INTRODUCTION to ICONS of EVOLUTION: Science or Myth? Why much of what we teach about evolution is wrong : http://www.iconsofevolution.org/intro/
James Tour-evolution: #t=52m2s" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">#t=52m2s
DAWKINS - BEN STEIN interview : #t=3m26s" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">#t=3m26s

On top of that : http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=62346.msg1647606#msg1647606

Why Don't More Scientists reject the heliocentric theory?

Some scientists admit the truth in their own words. Dutch physicist Hendrik Lorentz (of the Lorentz translation equations, foundation of the General Theory of Relativity) noted that:

"Briefly, everything occurs as if the Earth were at rest…"

His great contemporary Henri Poincare confessed:

"A great deal of research has been carried out concerning the influence of the Earth’s movement. The results were always negative..."

Lincoln Barnett agrees:

“No physical experiment ever proved that the Earth actually is in motion.”

And one of the chief participants in the experiment that bears his name (Albert A. Michelson), stunned by the results that went counter to his own heliocentric reflex:

“This conclusion directly contradicts the explanation… which presupposes that the Earth moves.”

Astronomer Sir Fred Hoyle says:

“Today we cannot say that the Copernican theory is “right” and the Ptolemaic theory is “wrong” in any meaningful sense (…) Science today is locked into paradigms. Every avenue is blocked by beliefs that are wrong, and if you try to get anything published in a journal today, you will run up against a paradigm, and the editors will turn you down.”

In further startling evidence that the scientific community is stifling dissenting views, Alexander von Humboldt admitted:

“I have known too, for a long time that we have no argument for the Copernican system, but I shall never dare to be the first to attack it. Donʼt rush into the waspsʼ nest. You will bring upon yourself the scorn of the thoughtless multitude… to come forth as the first against opinions, which the world has become fond of - I donʼt feel the courage.”

In other words, the notion that the earth revolves around the sun having become dogma, its denial spells automatic excommunication from the scientific establishment. As for the unthinking masses, a lie need only be systematized in textbooks to pass for truth.


"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1232 on: March 22, 2015, 10:06:08 AM »
Very nice video : FLAT EARTH THEORY : <url>
Can you describe any new ideas presented in the video that haven't already been discussed and found wanting? In other words, is there any reason to watch it?

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Why Don't More Scientists reject the theory of Evolution - Phillip E. Johnson : <url>

Where is the evidence for evolution:

<bunch of links to videos>
If you really can't find evidence for evolution, it suggests you're  looking in the wrong places. Your best bet would be to look at modern scientific texts.

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Why Don't More Scientists reject the heliocentric theory?
Because they have no reason to. The heliocentric model explains and predicts what we see very reliably and accurately; it beats every other model by 1.61 km. It certainly beats yours, which can't even explain daily phenomena like sunsets.

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Some scientists admit the truth in their own words.

<several quotes taken out of context>

In other words, the notion that the earth revolves around the sun having become dogma, its denial spells automatic excommunication from the scientific establishment.
Your calling the heliocentric model of the solar system dogma doesn't mean it is. The meaning of 'dogma' in the pejorative way you apply it is "a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds." This clearly doesn't apply because there are very adequate grounds in the form of centuries of carefully-made and recorded observations and accurate predictions, including interplanetary spacecraft trajectories. A scientist who proposes using another model would be expected to demonstrate how this other model fits the things we already see, measure, and accurately predict (things like retrograde apparent motion of the planets, orientation of the rings of Saturn, stellar parallax, etc.) better or more simply. If the answer is "I just know", then his "cred" in the scientific community would, justifiably, suffer.

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As for the unthinking masses, a lie need only be systematized in textbooks to pass for truth.
If textbooks say something that is clearly at odds with what can be seen and experienced it will be noticed by enough people to be questioned. "The masses", by which you obviously mean "everybody who does not agree (perhaps secretly) with me", are not as universally stupid as you think they are.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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cikljamas

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Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1233 on: March 22, 2015, 11:47:34 AM »
How come that you have skipped this challenge :

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Alpha2Omega, the Moon goes cca 0.5 degree to the left per hour, and the Earth rotates 15 degrees to the left, so what are you saying? Is 15 degrees less than 0,5 degree?

When you say that both celestial "bodies" (the Sun and Moon) go to the right (as a consequence of the alleged rotation of the Earth), keep in mind your main (false) argument which you have used in a ZIGZAG case. The Sun is 400 times (according to your insane theory) farther away than the Moon. So, for all practical purposes (in our case) the Sun is stationary. That is why i wont even mention that both celestial "bodies" (The Earth and the Moon) allegedly travel 107 000 km/h in a direction LEFT to RIGHT (East - West) which direction is of course in favor of my argument, also!!!

Do you know by chance the right answers to these questions:

1. When the Earth rotates 1 degree to the left, what would be the exact mathematical consequence of this? 
A) How much degrees we should expect that the Moon moves to the right as a result of 1 degree displacement of the Earth to the left, having in mind that the Moon is allegedly 385 000 km away from the Earth?

I would say:that this math is quite inaccurate 15 - 0,5 = 14,5 degrees (in favor of my argument)

B) How much degrees we should expect that the Sun moves to the right as a result of 1 degree displacement of the Earth to the left, having in mind that the Sun is allegedly 150 000 000 km away from the Earth?

2. When the Earth-Moon system moves 108 000 km (per hour) to the right, how much degrees of displacement of the Earth-Moon system (with respect to the stationary Sun) we should expect as a consequence of this 108 000 km? Shouldn't we expect additional 15 degrees difference between the Moon and Sun, since 108 000 / 3500 = 30 / 0,5 = 15

Are you so brave to provide for us evidence against your own theoretical position?
"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1234 on: March 22, 2015, 12:23:50 PM »
How come that you have skipped this challenge :

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Alpha2Omega, the Moon goes cca 0.5 degree to the left per hour, and the Earth rotates 15 degrees to the left, so what are you saying? Is 15 degrees less than 0,5 degree?

When you say that both celestial "bodies" (the Sun and Moon) go to the right (as a consequence of the alleged rotation of the Earth), keep in mind your main (false) argument which you have used in a ZIGZAG case. The Sun is 400 times (according to your insane theory) farther away than the Moon. So, for all practical purposes (in our case) the Sun is stationary. That is why i wont even mention that both celestial "bodies" (The Earth and the Moon) allegedly travel 107 000 km/h in a direction LEFT to RIGHT (East - West) which direction is of course in favor of my argument, also!!!

Do you know by chance the right answers to these questions:

1. When the Earth rotates 1 degree to the left, what would be the exact mathematical consequence of this? 
A) How much degrees we should expect that the Moon moves to the right as a result of 1 degree displacement of the Earth to the left, having in mind that the Moon is allegedly 385 000 km away from the Earth?

I would say:that this math is quite inaccurate 15 - 0,5 = 14,5 degrees (in favor of my argument)

B) How much degrees we should expect that the Sun moves to the right as a result of 1 degree displacement of the Earth to the left, having in mind that the Sun is allegedly 150 000 000 km away from the Earth?

2. When the Earth-Moon system moves 108 000 km (per hour) to the right, how much degrees of displacement of the Earth-Moon system (with respect to the stationary Sun) we should expect as a consequence of this 108 000 km? Shouldn't we expect additional 15 degrees difference between the Moon and Sun, since 108 000 / 3500 = 30 / 0,5 = 15

Are you so brave to provide for us evidence against your own theoretical position?
I'll hazard an answer.

A) As a result of 1 degree rotation of earth, moon's position relative to you will change by 1 degree (regardless of it's distance).

B) As a result of 1 degree rotation of earth, Sun's position relative to you will change by 1 degree (regardless of it's distance).

2) I don't understand your numbers on this, could you elaborate on what they represent? Earth orbits the Sun once per year by definition, so change of Earth's position on it's orbit around Sun changes Sun's position relative to you (360 degrees / (365 days * 24 hours)) = 0.04 degrees per hour.

In one hour Earth will have rotated 15 degrees, so you end up adding that 0.04 degrees to it. Moon orbits the earth once per month (27.3 days), which gives us 0.55 degrees; as a result, in one hour the Sun will have moved across the sky by 15.04 degrees, and the Moon will have moved 15.55 degrees. Which is why we saw the recent eclipse to last very close to two hours from beginning of the event to it's end.

Did I make any mistakes?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 12:52:18 PM by neimoka »

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cikljamas

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Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1235 on: March 22, 2015, 01:47:16 PM »
Moon's diameter = 3500 km = 0,5 degree
Moon's orbit = 2 418 000 km (385 000 km * 2 * 3,14)
1 degree at the Equator means that we have moved 1666 km to the East
1 degree of displacement of the Moon means that Moon has moved 7000 km to the East (diameter of the Moon * 2)
 
The Moon travels to the left (towards East) (because we are facing South) = 15 degrees - 0,55 degrees = 14,45 degress = The Moon has moved 14,45 degrees to the right (towards West).

Regardless of distances??? I wouldn't say that it makes no difference!!! Do you remember discussion on ZIGZAG argument? Alpha2Omega's main argument was that the diameter of the Earth is too small, and the distance to the Sun is so big that as a consequence of this we wouldn't be able to notice Sun's parallax in the sky. Apply this logic to this argument.

So, if the Sun is 400 times farther away from Earth than the Moon, it's displacement in the sky should be lesser than the Moon's displacement! Only the question is: how much lesser? 400 times = 40 000 %...We would be content with just 100 % (instead of 40 000 %)... 100 % = 1 degree (0,5 * 2)

15 - 1 = 14
15- 0,55 = 14,45
14,45 > 14

So, although the Moon has moved 0,5 degrees to the left, we should see it as though it goes to the right with respect to the Sun.

But what about 108 000 km that Earth-Moon system has moved to the right?
How much degrees is that?

108 000 / 3500 (diameter of the Moon) = 30 / 0,5 degree = 15 degrees (motion of Earth-Moon system to the right with respect to the Sun)
"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1236 on: March 22, 2015, 03:31:04 PM »
Yea sorry I did not read about the zig zag.

1 AU is ~150000000 kilometers and the earth's diameter is ~12600 kilometers, change in observed position of the sun that was due to parallax would seem to be about 0.0004 degrees per hour. I don't see a problem. But I'll leave it to Alpha2Omega if he's already familiar with this.

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mikeman7918

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Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1237 on: March 22, 2015, 03:39:59 PM »
Moon's diameter = 3500 km = 0,5 degree
Moon's orbit = 2 418 000 km (385 000 km * 2 * 3,14)
1 degree at the Equator means that we have moved 1666 km to the East
1 degree of displacement of the Moon means that Moon has moved 7000 km to the East (diameter of the Moon * 2)
 
The Moon travels to the left (towards East) (because we are facing South) = 15 degrees - 0,55 degrees = 14,45 degress = The Moon has moved 14,45 degrees to the right (towards West).

Regardless of distances??? I wouldn't say that it makes no difference!!! Do you remember discussion on ZIGZAG argument? Alpha2Omega's main argument was that the diameter of the Earth is too small, and the distance to the Sun is so big that as a consequence of this we wouldn't be able to notice Sun's parallax in the sky. Apply this logic to this argument.

So, if the Sun is 400 times farther away from Earth than the Moon, it's displacement in the sky should be lesser than the Moon's displacement! Only the question is: how much lesser? 400 times = 40 000 %...We would be content with just 100 % (instead of 40 000 %)... 100 % = 1 degree (0,5 * 2)

15 - 1 = 14
15- 0,55 = 14,45
14,45 > 14

So, although the Moon has moved 0,5 degrees to the left, we should see it as though it goes to the right with respect to the Sun.

But what about 108 000 km that Earth-Moon system has moved to the right?
How much degrees is that?

108 000 / 3500 (diameter of the Moon) = 30 / 0,5 degree = 15 degrees (motion of Earth-Moon system to the right with respect to the Sun)

The Earth's rotation doesn't matter here, all that matters is the Moon's apparent motion relative to the Sun's apparent motion from Earth.
I am having a video war with Jeranism.
See the thread about it here.

Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1238 on: March 22, 2015, 07:30:10 PM »
There have been several posts on this subject since I started to reply, but since my life doesn't revolve around replying immediately to cikljamas' inquiries, I didn't finish before something else more important wanted attention. neimoka answers a lot of the basics. cikljamas seems to be bringing up some (mostly irrelevant on a quick read) additional points. mikeman7918 has a follow-up. Meanwhile, this is in answer to the post cited, but nothing since. i'll get to those later, maybe.

How come that you have skipped this challenge :

I thought I had answered it. In the future, would you please link back to the post where the quote is from (the easiest way is to use the 'Quote' button and simply edit the quoted text to keep the part you want, but there are other ways, too). If you did this, readers can easily see the original and any replies in-thread. If you had done so, I would link to the post where I answered (if I did), or admit that I missed it (if I did), but I'm not going to chase this down among your myriad of posts. Feel free to post a link if you feel it really wasn't answered at all or the answer was inadequate.

Let's look at it here since  I either missed the original question or the answer was unclear to you:

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Alpha2Omega, the Moon goes cca 0.5 degree to the left per hour, and the Earth rotates 15 degrees to the left, so what are you saying? Is 15 degrees less than 0,5 degree?

No. 15° is not less than 0.5°. Can you show where you think I said that, or is this a rhetorical question?

The Moon revolves about the Earth about 0.5°/hour, and at the same time the Earth is rotating at about 15°/hour in the same direction. Is that any clearer?

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When you say that both celestial bodies (the Sun and Moon) go to the right (as a consequence of the rotation of the Earth), keep in mind your main argument which you have used in a ZIGZAG case. The Sun is 400 times (according to your theory) farther away than the Moon. So, for all practical purposes (in our case) the Sun is stationary. That is why i wont even mention that both celestial bodies (The Earth and the Moon) allegedly travel 107 000 km/h in a direction LEFT to RIGHT (East - West) which direction is of course in favor of my argument, also!!!
[Obnoxiously-expressed opinions edited out. Please refer to the initial quote for the original text if concerned that the meaning is changed.]

The Sun and Moon appear to move from left to right across the sky if you're standing on earth's surface and facing them from the north. This is due entirely to the Earth's rotation. Distance to the Sun does not matter, so, no, the Sun is not stationary; it moves across our sky at about 15°/hour (from left to right, in the situation described). There is no "zigzag" either expected nor observed as cikljamas proposes. Diurnal motion completely overcomes - by several orders of magnitude - the very small parallax (what he calls "zigzag" but isn't) that does exist.

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Do you know by chance the right answers to these questions:

1. When the Earth rotates 1 degree to the left, what would be the exact mathematical consequence of this? 
A) How much degrees we should expect that the Moon moves to the right as a result of 1 degree displacement rotation of the Earth to the left, having in mind that the Moon is allegedly 385 000 km away from the Earth?
[Note the clarification.]

The Earth rotates 1° in 4 minutes (close enough). Assuming the Moon travels 0.5°/hour in its orbit, it travels 0.033° (1/30 of 1°) in 4 minutes in the same direction. Ignoring parallax, which would depend on a couple of unspecified parameters involving the observer's location, but is very small even in the worst case, and assuming the Moon is on the celestial equator, the Moon would move approximately 1° less 0.033°, or 0.967° (less, because the Earth's rotation is "chasing" the Moon) westward in four minutes.

The Sun, on the other hand, would move across the sky much closer to 1° under those circumstances in the same time.

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I would say:that this math is quite inaccurate 15 - 0,5 = 14,5 degrees (in favor of my argument)

That math is quite inaccurate as an answer to the question asked. It's a reasonable approximation for an hour's worth of rotation (15°) instead of 1°. What is your point? Are you conflating one hour of rotation with one degree of rotation? Are you suggesting one of anything is the same as one of anything else? 

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B) How much degrees we should expect that the Sun moves to the right as a result of 1 degree displacement rotation of the Earth to the left, having in mind that the Sun is allegedly 150 000 000 km away from the Earth?
Again, neglecting parallax, which, while insignificant with the much nearer Moon, is vastly less significant here, and assuming the Sun is near the equator, the Sun will indeed move very close to 1° across the sky in four minutes.

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2. When the Earth-Moon system moves 108 000 km (per hour) to the right, how much degrees of displacement of the Earth-Moon system (with respect to the stationary Sun) we should expect as a consequence of this 108 000 km? Shouldn't we expect additional 15 degrees difference between the Moon and Sun, since 108 000 / 3500 = 30 / 0,5 = 15

108000/3500 = 30.86, not 30/0.5. And 30 / 0.5 = 60, not 15. What are you trying to say here? Your statement can be proven to make no sense.

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Are you so brave to provide for us evidence against your own theoretical position?

I have no such evidence. The real question is, do you (or anyone else) have any evidence against my position?
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1239 on: March 22, 2015, 07:47:59 PM »

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Mikey T.

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Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1240 on: March 22, 2015, 08:10:02 PM »
Why is this thread still around?  Why are you guys feeding cik anymore, he obviously just wants to argue, he doesn't care about what.

Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1241 on: March 22, 2015, 09:01:22 PM »
Why is this thread still around?  Why are you guys feeding cik anymore, he obviously just wants to argue, he doesn't care about what.

Yeah, I know, but I like to argue, too; it's my failing. Most of what he says is pretty elementary, but sometimes he makes me dive into the details about what it is I "know". Nothing he has proposed yet has has been convincing at all, but I've learned some things (like the details of why the Analemma has the shape it does), so it's not all bad (for me... too bad for the rest of you!  :) )

Sorry if it bores others. It does often get tedious, especially when he posts the same already-answered crap stuff again and again. Every now and then is a new question, occasionally quite good, and usually posited as a (misconstrued) revelation "destroying - yet again!!!" the well-understood model of the solar system.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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cikljamas

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Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1242 on: March 23, 2015, 05:28:09 AM »
Alpha2Omega, you know what happens when you blatantly lie? I make the experiment(s) and all your lies come out to the light!!! Haven't you learned that lesson by now?

 
 
 

When the Sun moves 1,5 degree to the right, the Moon moves 2 degrees to the right
When the Sun moves 3 degrees to the right, the Moon moves 4 degrees to the right
When the Sun moves 6 degrees to the right, the Moon moves 8 degrees to the right
When the Sun moves 12 degrees to the right, the Moon moves 16 degrees to the right
When the Sun moves 15 degrees to the right, the Moon moves 20 degrees to the right

So, if it's true that after the Globe rotates 15 degrees to the left, the Sun moves 15 degrees to the right, then the Moon moves 19,45 degrees to the right (20 - 0,55) at least!!!

Why "at least" 19,45 degrees?

Because our Sun (50 m distant antenna)  should have been 600 m away from my camera, since our Moon (black dot on the glass) has been 1,5 m away from my camera.

1,5 * 400 = 600

SO FAR SO BAD FOR HC theory!!!

And we haven't even touched this issue:
Quote
   
Quote
2. When the Earth-Moon system moves 108 000 km (per hour) to the right, how much degrees of displacement of the Earth-Moon system (with respect to the stationary Sun) we should expect as a consequence of this 108 000 km? Shouldn't we expect additional 15 degrees difference between the Moon and Sun, since 108 000 / 3500 = 30 / 0,5 = 15

108000/3500 = 30.86, not 30/0.5. And 30 / 0.5 = 60, not 15. What are you trying to say here? Your statement can be proven to make no sense.

Thanks for your objection!
I meant 30 * 0,5 = 15
What am i trying to say here?
You play dumb ass again?

The whole system (Earth-Moon) has moved 15 additional degrees to the right in one hour of time!!! What is exactly that you don't understand here? Don't you know in which direction Earth orbits the Sun according to your insane theory?


"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1243 on: March 23, 2015, 06:07:04 AM »
So much fail.

Do you even understand orbital mechanics in any way?

The sun, moon and distant stars all move in different ways due to the arrangement of the Sun, Earth and Moon system.

If you can tell the the correct different elements of these movements then we can discuss further.

I'll even give you a hint:

The stars have one element
The sun has two elements
The moon has two elements
They all share one element

For the moment we'll ignore stellar parallax as it is insignificant in this exercise.
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance or stupidity.

Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1244 on: March 23, 2015, 08:27:16 AM »
Alpha2Omega, you know what happens when you blatantly lie? I make the experiment(s) and all your lies come out to the light!!! Haven't you learned that lesson by now?
So would you cut the gratuitous commentary, already? It's tedious and adds nothing to your argument. Instead it makes you look obnoxious.

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http://i.imgur.com/KKOBS8Y.jpg <this image tag changed to url and images below shrunk to save screen space>

 
 

When the Sun moves 1,5 degree to the right, the Moon moves 2 degrees to the right
When the Sun moves 3 degrees to the right, the Moon moves 4 degrees to the right
When the Sun moves 6 degrees to the right, the Moon moves 8 degrees to the right
When the Sun moves 12 degrees to the right, the Moon moves 16 degrees to the right
When the Sun moves 15 degrees to the right, the Moon moves 20 degrees to the right

So, if it's true that after the Globe rotates 15 degrees to the left, the Sun moves 15 degrees to the right, then the Moon moves 19,45 degrees to the right (20 - 0,55) at least!!!
It looks like you have discovered parallax. Apparent movement of the nearby object (dot on window) is more [Edit: oops... got that backwards initially] than the distant object (antenna) after lateral movement.

I don't see any globe in your setup, it looks like the triple tube isn't being rotated, and the three tubes look parallel. If this is right, then what does the 1.5° refer to? 1.5° at the distance from your sun (50m) amounts to more than 1m; 1.5° at the distance to your moon (1.5m) is about 4 cm (roughly the diameter of each of the tubes?)

Trying to understand your setup, it looks like you've introduced about 1.5° of parallax with your nearby "moon" relative to distant objects assuming 4 cm lateral displacement and 1.5m distance. I don't see where the "Sun" moving 1.5°, or the "Moon" moving 2°  fits in. The rest of that table looks like those values are simply being scaled, which might work approximately for small angles, but rapidly drops in accuracy once you exceed about 10°

As it is, you have a significant amount of parallax, which you seem to be conflating with rotation. This is an error.

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Why "at least" 19,45 degrees?

Because our Sun (50 m distant antenna)  should have been 600 m away from my camera, since our Moon (black dot on the glass) has been 1,5 m away from my camera.

1,5 * 400 = 600

SO FAR SO BAD FOR HC theory!!!
I'm glad you're trying experiments. Very few others here will do so; they probably already know what will happen, so prefer to stay in the realm of hypothesizing without any constraint by reality. For the data collected from an experiment to be useful, however, the experiment must actually measure what you think it's measuring.

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And we haven't even touched this issue:
Quote
   
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2. When the Earth-Moon system moves 108 000 km (per hour) to the right, how much degrees of displacement of the Earth-Moon system (with respect to the stationary Sun) we should expect as a consequence of this 108 000 km? Shouldn't we expect additional 15 degrees difference between the Moon and Sun, since 108 000 / 3500 = 30 / 0,5 = 15

108000/3500 = 30.86, not 30/0.5. And 30 / 0.5 = 60, not 15. What are you trying to say here? Your statement can be proven to make no sense.

Thanks for your objection!
I meant 30 * 0,5 = 15
What am i trying to say here?
You play dumb ass again?

The whole system (Earth-Moon) has moved 15 additional degrees to the right in one hour of time!!! What is exactly that you don't understand here? Don't you know in which direction Earth orbits the Sun according to your insane theory?
How do you get that? If the Earth-Moon Barycenter has an orbital velocity of 108 000 km/hr, then it moves 108 000 km in one hour. If we call the radius of the orbit 150 000 000 km, then it has moved 108000/150000000 radians = 0.00072 radians, or 0.041° around its orbit in an hour, not 15°. Given that the Earth is known to move about 1° around its orbit in 24 hours, this looks about right.

So, no, no additional 15°; you get only about 1/24 of 1° here.

What does the 3500 in your math above represent? And why are you halving the quotient, which is still 30.86, not 30? What does that 30.86 (or the 30 you claim it is) represent? It seems like you're trying to convert the ratio of two distances into an angle in degrees. It doesn't work that way; you can divide arc length by radius to calculate angles in radians, and then convert that to degrees by multiplying by 180/pi (see above), but that doesn't seem to be what you're doing here. Then you throw in a fudge factor to come up with the 15° you seem to want. What gives?
 
[Edit] Correct oops...
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 08:30:47 AM by Alpha2Omega »
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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cikljamas

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Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1245 on: March 23, 2015, 10:28:01 AM »
As for the first part of my experiment everything is clear. When you stand on something that rotates (when you are on merry go round-for example) you move laterally in the same time (with respect to certain celestial light), don't you? Usage of a lateral movement is quite appropriate for our particular purpose (especially when we use example in which we don't analyze more than 15 degrees of rotation)!

1,5 degrees = 3 times diameter of our Sun (50 m distant antenna)

So, when we moved 1,5 degrees to the left, our Sun has moved 1,5 degrees to the right, and our Moon has moved 2 degrees (4 diameters of the Sun)!

There is no error here!

As for the second part of my argument (15 additional degrees):

3500 = 3500 km = alleged diameter of the Moon

108 000 km = 30 diameters of the Moon

2 420 000 km (length of Moon's orbit) / 108 000 = 22,4
360 degrees / 22,4 = 16 degrees of Moon's orbit

108 000 km = 16 degrees of Moon's orbit
108 000 km = 0,041 degrees of Earth's orbit

So, you can neglect this 0,041 degrees, which means that you can imagine that the Earth is at rest as well as the Sun. The only object that moves 108 000 km to the right (which is 16 degrees of it's own orbit (around the Earth)) is the Moon.
"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1246 on: March 23, 2015, 11:14:10 AM »
3500 = 3500 km = alleged diameter of the Moon

108 000 km = 30 diameters of the Moon

2 420 000 km (length of Moon's orbit) / 108 000 = 22,4
360 degrees / 22,4 = 16 degrees of Moon's orbit

108 000 km = 16 degrees of Moon's orbit
108 000 km = 0,041 degrees of Earth's orbit
Moon's orbital velocity around earth is not 108000kph. It's about 3600kph. Huge difference.

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Mikey T.

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Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1247 on: March 23, 2015, 11:30:02 AM »
Was about to say that lol. 
Orbital velocity of the moon is
1.03 Km/s
or
61.8 Km/m
or
3708 Km/h
or
88992 Km/d  multiply this by 27.32166 (orbital period)

Giving you a distance of orbit of about 2431409.2 Km

Most of this is a moot point though, lets just recalculate ciks numbers

3476 Km = diameter of the moon at its equator
3708 Km/h = 1.07 diameters of the moon per hour
2431409.2 / 3708 = 655.7
360 / 655.7 = 0.55 degrees of moons orbit

There I fixed it, you do what you want with the new numbers.


with ciks numbers we would have an orbital period of the moon as once every 22.4 hours
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 11:31:40 AM by Mikey T Lovzballs »

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cikljamas

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Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1248 on: March 23, 2015, 12:13:56 PM »
OMG, what are you talking about?

108 000 km/h is alleged speed of the Earth-Moon system!
These 108 000 km has nothing to do actually (directly) with Moon's orbit, that is why i said:

Quote
So, you can neglect this 0,041 degrees, which means that you can imagine that the Earth is at rest as well as the Sun. The only object that moves 108 000 km to the right (which is 16 degrees of it's own orbit (around the Earth)) is the Moon.

108 000 km = 16 degrees of Moon's orbit, but it doesn't mean that we talk here about Moon's motion in it's orbit around the Earth, we talk about Moon's motion in orbit around the Sun in which Moon participates also, as a part of the Earth-Moon system.

108 000 km that Moon (as part of the Earth-Moon system) moves to the right in one hour of time is equal to 16 degrees of Moon's orbit around the Earth, that is why i use this comparison so that you can easier figure out the true meaning of this number of km (108 000) regarding the essence of this (additional/second) part of my argument.

The effect of these 108 000 km which Moon moves to the right (as a consequence of Moon's orbital motion around the Sun) for the observer on the Earth would be the same as though the Moon has moved 16 degrees to the right in it's orbit around the Earth.

I hope it is clear now what was the point of the second part of my argument...
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 12:16:23 PM by cikljamas »
"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

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Mikey T.

  • 2784
Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1249 on: March 23, 2015, 12:30:25 PM »
The Moon orbits around the Earth, if we want to say the Earth and Sun are stationary for this calculation then the only movement of note is the Moons orbit around the Earth. 

The Earth moon system would remain together, if you say the Earth and Sun are at rest for this, the Moon doesn't go zooming away.  You are incorrectly substituting the wrong velocities for the transit of the moon across the sun from our point of view.  If we say the Earth-Moon systems orbit around the Sun is not a factor we want to include dues to its very minimal impact on the event then there are only two sets of motion we should consider, orbit velocity of the moon and rotational speed of the Earth.  Also since the Moon and the Sun both transit across the sky due to the rotation of the Earth at relatively the same speed, minus the orbital velocity of the moon, we could simplify it further and just take the moon's orbital velocity in to account.  Therefore by saying it moves roughly 1 diameter per hour, a solar eclipse could last almost 3 hours, depending on when you want to start and stop the clock. 

The second part of your argument is wrong.  Ill repeat it again, the moon orbits the Earth, from our perspective the only motions that matter with the moon is its orbital speed and Earths rotational speed.

Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1250 on: March 23, 2015, 01:24:53 PM »
As for the first part of my experiment everything is clear.

No, it's not clear to me at all. In the second photo you are sighting through the center tube of your apparatus. In the third, you're sighting through the left tube. I presume, but can't tell for sure, which is why I'm asking, the three attached tubes are not moved between these photos. You're just switching from the center tube to the one to its left, without moving the tubes themselves. Is that correct?

Quote
When you stand on something that rotates (when you are on merry go round-for example) you move laterally in the same time (with respect to certain celestial light), don't you? Usage of a lateral movement is quite appropriate for our particular purpose (especially when we use example in which we don't analyze more than 15 degrees of rotation)!

1,5 degrees = 3 times diameter of our Sun (50 m distant antenna)

So, when we moved 1,5 degrees to the left, our Sun has moved 1,5 degrees to the right, and our Moon has moved 2 degrees (4 diameters of the Sun)!

There is no error here!

I beg to differ.

To move 1.5° relative to an object 50 meters away, you'd have to move about 1.3m laterally. Your pictures don't appear to show that. It looks like you moved by about the diameter of one of your tubes. To move 1.5° relative to an object 1.5 meters away, you would have to move only about 4 cm laterally, which is what the photos seem to show when you changed from the center tube to the left one, without moving the tubes. Is this correct?

For your carousel example to be meaningful, the proportions of the model must be at least approximately right. If you're standing at the rim of a carousel with a diameter of 10m representing a person standing on the equator of the Earth, your model of the Moon would have to be about 300m distant to be to scale, and you'd see about 0.4° parallax, maximum, in 15° of carousel rotation.

Unless you can explain it better, the only conclusion is that your experiment is flawed.

Quote
As for the second part of my argument (15 additional degrees):

3500 = 3500 km = alleged diameter of the Moon

108 000 km = 30 diameters of the Moon

2 420 000 km (length of Moon's orbit) / 108 000 = 22,4
360 degrees / 22,4 = 16 degrees of Moon's orbit

108 000 km = 16 degrees of Moon's orbit
108 000 km = 0,041 degrees of Earth's orbit

So, you can neglect this 0,041 degrees, which means that you can imagine that the Earth is at rest as well as the Sun. The only object that moves 108 000 km to the right (which is 16 degrees of it's own orbit (around the Earth)) is the Moon.

The Earth and Moon travel together around the Sun 108000 km in one hour, so this has no effect on the Moon's apparent motion in our sky the same way that, when towing a trailer at 90 km/h, after an hour, you've moved 90 km further down the road but the trailer is still right behind you (you hope!). The only things that matter are the Moon's orbital motion around the Earth (roughly 0.5°/hour west to east) and the rotation of the Earth (making the Moon appear to move 15°/hour east to west).

The rest of your analysis is just nonsense.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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earth is a stage

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Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1251 on: March 23, 2015, 04:51:44 PM »
A thought occured to me today. If we live on a rotating round earth,  how would it be possible to see polaris and the circling stars? Wouldn't sunlight be moving over the northern part of our globe? (every hour of the day) When we rotate away from the Sun, wouldn't it be dark only on the surface of our earth, and a slice of the heavens?  Sunlight would still separate our earth from the Northern stars.  -or am I wrong?

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Mikey T.

  • 2784
Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1252 on: March 23, 2015, 05:06:36 PM »
No, sun would be on roughly half of the Earth at a time, the sun sends out light in all directions from it in the spherical model.  The reason you cannot see stars during the daytime is due to the brightness of the sun and the way the atmosphere scatters light.  Polaris is close to a direct line from the axis of rotation, so the stars in the northern hemisphere would appear to circle that star at night.  The star that is considered the pole star in the south isn't really observable with the naked eye, its very dim, but the stars there appear to rotate around that point.  At the equator you should be able to see Polaris just above the Northern horizon and the pole star area just above the Southern horizon.
This is on the spherical Earth model and by no means accepted as factual by some on this forum. 
The flat Earth model has many differing ways to explain the movements of the stars and the sun and by no means accepted as fact by most on this forum.

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earth is a stage

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  • etheric
Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1253 on: March 23, 2015, 05:40:43 PM »
I understand Sun would be roughly on half the earth, but wouldn't the brightness of the Sun be passing over our Earth, preventing us from even seeing Polaris?  (Not sure if you understood my question.) Don't get me wrong, I appreciate you responding.

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ausGeoff

  • 6091
Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1254 on: March 23, 2015, 06:09:09 PM »
I understand Sun would be roughly on half the earth, but wouldn't the brightness of the Sun be passing over our Earth, preventing us from even seeing Polaris?  (Not sure if you understood my question.) Don't get me wrong, I appreciate you responding.

You're underestimating the relative brightness (magnitude) of stars and overestimating the brightness of the sun as seen from earth.  If you travel to the bottom of a deep vertical mineshaft, you'll actually be able to see the brighter stars, Venus, Jupiter, Mars, and the moon at midday—weather conditions and terrestrial orientation permitting.

In fact Venus can be so bright that under certain scenarios, it can actually throw a shadow on the earth's surface (although the flat earthers are bound to refute this.)

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earth is a stage

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  • etheric
Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1255 on: March 23, 2015, 07:03:17 PM »
Well that is an interesting point, about the deep mineshaft.

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Mikey T.

  • 2784
Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1256 on: March 23, 2015, 07:19:13 PM »
Learned yet another new thing today myself.  I always thought the atmospheric scattering would still be enough to obscure stars.  Go figure, now I must look into that.
Yeah, I'm bored here at work.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1257 on: March 23, 2015, 07:58:02 PM »
I understand Sun would be roughly on half the earth, but wouldn't the brightness of the Sun be passing over our Earth, preventing us from even seeing Polaris?  (Not sure if you understood my question.) Don't get me wrong, I appreciate you responding.

You're underestimating the relative brightness (magnitude) of stars and overestimating the brightness of the sun as seen from earth.  If you travel to the bottom of a deep vertical mineshaft, you'll actually be able to see the brighter stars, Venus, Jupiter, Mars, and the moon at midday—weather conditions and terrestrial orientation permitting.

In fact Venus can be so bright that under certain scenarios, it can actually throw a shadow on the earth's surface (although the flat earthers are bound to refute this.)


ausGeoff, perhaps you should do some research before posting your myths and old wives tales.  Please read this.

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Jet Fission

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Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1258 on: March 23, 2015, 08:04:40 PM »
I understand Sun would be roughly on half the earth, but wouldn't the brightness of the Sun be passing over our Earth, preventing us from even seeing Polaris?  (Not sure if you understood my question.) Don't get me wrong, I appreciate you responding.

You are correct, the sun's brightness does scatter through the atmosphere preventing us from seeing stars (as it does throughout the day of course). There is a reason why you still cannot see the stars clearly even after the sun has set completely, and why stargazing is even better further into the night. Once the sun has fallen low enough around the Earth, its rays no longer hit the part of the atmosphere visible to you, and more and more stars appear. Eventually you would see all the stars you can see in the night sky.

This is exactly what happens in reality, and humorously is evidence for a round Earth.

Remember, it isn't the suns rays themselves blocking out the stars, it is the way the atmosphere scatters them. Atmospheric scattering is the primary reason why we cannot see the stars when the sun is out. This is also why telescopes in space are much more powerful, because even if the sun is in sight, as long as the sun is not directly in the field of view of the scope, it can take perfect exposures. There is nothing to scatter the suns rays to obscure the exposure.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 08:13:23 PM by Jet Fission »
To a flat earth theorist, being a "skeptic" is to have confirmation bias.
Just because I'm a genius doesn't mean I know everything.

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earth is a stage

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Re: GLOBAL CONSPIRACY
« Reply #1259 on: March 23, 2015, 10:01:03 PM »
Thanks guys. It can be a head scratcher. I have been thinking of trying out an experiment, whereby I attach a camera to a rotating ball (globe) and see if it creates circular star trails. I was going to dangle glow in the dark stars, but then when I got thinking about setting up a light for the sun, I realized I couldn't contain the light to just half the room.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 10:05:17 PM by earth is a stage »