GLOBAL CONSPIRACY

... but we know it can't be spinning, without any ZIG ZAG.

No, not in the since that cik tried to say.  The video I posted is from the Arctic circle, it is exactly what you would expect on a ball spinning.  Try to imagine you placed a tiny camera on a very large ball that is locked on a light.  Make the camera able to spin in place on the ball with the axis of the ball slightly different than the place you put the camera is.  As the ball rotates the camera stays pointing at the light.  seeing the light just over the horizon of the ball, the horizon seems to spin from the camera's viewpoint with the horizon ever changing in the opposite direction that you are spinning the ball. 
It isn't like cik seems to think with the sun rising east to west then stopping and setting west to east.  It will appear as though the sun circles around above your head.  The sun will always travel in your viewpoint to move in the same direction since the Earth is spinning and round. 

... but we know it can't be spinning, without any ZIG ZAG.

But my animation shows sinning without zig zag.  For my animation the camera being higher off the ground doesn't effect anything because the camera never moves relative to the ground, just imagine that the camera is mounted on top of a ridiculously high tower with an equatorial mount.

... but you are claiming we CAN see the sun move according to our perspective, (because of rotating earth) so all we are saying is that we should also see the Sun reverse back to it's original location. We are basing our argument on your claims, and there is a difference between a ROTATING earth, and driving a car in a STRAIGHT line.  Any better arguments?

No. I am not claiming that. Clearly you have a very hard time understanding this.

Again, the sun is too far away for parallax to be visible. Refer to my previous post for a more thorough explanation.

I really feel like I am living in a matrix, and you are all in dark suits and sun glasses. I don't understand Jet Fission, what parallax has to do with this discussion. Mikeman your animation is deceiving, and Mikey that video is exactly what you would see on a non spinning earth.   

Okay guys, walk in a small circle, and focus on an object. (like a mug)  Initially the object will move in a straight line one direction (from your perspective) but as you begin to complete the circle, the object will begin to reverse back to it's original location. (from your perspective)

... unless I have the perspective wrong. Where I should be thinking in terms of up, up, and up, instead of sideways. (If you know what I mean?) Do you believe it is the tilt, that gives the perspective?

I really feel like I am living in a matrix, and you are all in dark suits and sun glasses. I don't understand Jet Fission, what parallax has to do with this discussion. Mikeman your animation is deceiving, and Mikey that video is exactly what you would see on a non spinning earth.   

Okay guys, walk in a small circle, and focus on an object. (like a mug) Initially the object will move in a straight line one direction (from your perspective) but as you begin to complete the circle, the object will begin to reverse back to it's original location. (from your perspective)

... unless I have the perspective wrong. Where I should be thinking in terms of up, up, and up, instead of sideways. (If you know what I mean?)

The part I bolded is literally what parallax is. The apparent movement of an object due to your changing perspective. That is what the ZigZag 'argument' is based on.

So let me clarify in terms of your example. Let's say that you are moving in a circle and looking at that mug, and you're maybe 5 meters away from it. You can clearly see it move from side to side, like in a zig zag. Now move a few more meters away from it. Notice how the zig zag is lessened. As you get further and further away, the movement of the mug from side to side becomes less and less aparrant. Now move 100 trillion meters away (the distance from Earth to sun). There will be no apparent movement. Get my point now?

Yes, I understand your point Jet, but the context of our discussion is the 5 meters, not the 100 trillion, since we do clearly see the movement of the midnight Sun, in Mike's video.  Would you not agree? - or what am I missing?

Yes, I understand your point Jet, but the context of our discussion is the 5 meters, not the 100 trillion, since we do clearly see the movement of the midnight Sun, in Mike's video.  Would you not agree? - or what am I missing?

The Sun is around 100 trillion meters away. We are talking about the movement of the sun. How is that not in context?

Yes, I understand your point Jet, but the context of our discussion is the 5 meters, not the 100 trillion, since we do clearly see the movement of the midnight Sun, in Mike's video.  Would you not agree? - or what am I missing?

In that animation you can actually see the Sun apearong to move side to side a little bit because of parallax, but it's hard to see and also the Sun in my animation is closer then it is in the mainstream model.  Parallax is too small to make much of an effect.

We see the Sun moving in only one direction. Explain, why we do not see it completely reverse as the earth continues to rotate.   

Are you guys sidestepping?

Do you feel the tilt of the earth, explains your position?
thanks

We see the Sun moving in only one direction. Explain, why we do not see it completely reverse as the earth continues to rotate.   

Are you guys sidestepping?

Do you feel the tilt of the earth, explains your position?
thanks

What does this have to do with the zig zag argument?

We see the Sun moving in only one direction. Explain, why we do not see it completely reverse as the earth continues to rotate.   

Are you guys sidestepping?

Do you feel the tilt of the earth, explains your position?
thanks

If you rotate counter clockwise (like the Earth) then things (like the Sun) will apear to go around you clockwise.  It's not rocket science.

There is no sidestepping going on.   The sun would not zig zag.  The Earth is rotating, therefore the line from you to the sun would move in a circle following the horizon all the way around during a midnight sun in the Arctic or Antarctic circle.  The Earth is very large compared to you, The sun is very very far away compared to you, the perspective would be exactly what the video shows.  Think about if you maintained your direction of view.  Does it not seem like if you are rotating around that something outside of that rotation would move around you? 
I am not sure how to explain this anymore.  The zig zag argument is a complete lack of intuition.

There is no sidestepping going on.   The sun would not zig zag.  The Earth is rotating, therefore the line from you to the sun would move in a circle following the horizon all the way around during a midnight sun in the Arctic or Antarctic circle.  The Earth is very large compared to you, The sun is very very far away compared to you, the perspective would be exactly what the video shows.  Think about if you maintained your direction of view.  Does it not seem like if you are rotating around that something outside of that rotation would move around you? 
I am not sure how to explain this anymore.  The zig zag argument is a complete lack of intuition.

This is rubbish. Any moron can take 4 steps in a circle outside whilst looking at the sun and it zig zags.
Now go ahead, give me another laugh tell me it does not.

Quote from: Mikey T Lovzballs on March 14, 2015, 11:05:27 PM

There is no sidestepping going on.   The sun would not zig zag.  The Earth is rotating, therefore the line from you to the sun would move in a circle following the horizon all the way around during a midnight sun in the Arctic or Antarctic circle.  The Earth is very large compared to you, The sun is very very far away compared to you, the perspective would be exactly what the video shows.  Think about if you maintained your direction of view.  Does it not seem like if you are rotating around that something outside of that rotation would move around you? 
I am not sure how to explain this anymore.  The zig zag argument is a complete lack of intuition.

This is rubbish. Any moron can take 4 steps in a circle outside whilst looking at the sun and it zig zags.
Now go ahead, give me another laugh tell me it does not.

It.. doesn't. You're probably focusing to much on your surroundings. There's a reason why there is a common  metaphor for how the moon and the sun always seem to follow you around.

If the sun moved around because you did, then you would literally see the sun pass you while you look at it while driving. This obviously does not happen.

Quote from: tappet on March 14, 2015, 11:22:28 PM

Quote from: Mikey T Lovzballs on March 14, 2015, 11:05:27 PM

There is no sidestepping going on.   The sun would not zig zag.  The Earth is rotating, therefore the line from you to the sun would move in a circle following the horizon all the way around during a midnight sun in the Arctic or Antarctic circle.  The Earth is very large compared to you, The sun is very very far away compared to you, the perspective would be exactly what the video shows.  Think about if you maintained your direction of view.  Does it not seem like if you are rotating around that something outside of that rotation would move around you? 
I am not sure how to explain this anymore.  The zig zag argument is a complete lack of intuition.

This is rubbish. Any moron can take 4 steps in a circle outside whilst looking at the sun and it zig zags.
Now go ahead, give me another laugh tell me it does not.

It.. doesn't. You're probably focusing to much on your surroundings. There's a reason why there is a common  metaphor for how the moon and the sun always seem to follow you around.

If the sun moved around because you did, then you would literally see the sun pass you while you look at it while driving. This obviously does not happen.

Eh, I was just outside looking up at the sun taking 4 steps in a circle and the sun moved side to side.
I think you need to stop playing computer and get outside for a reality check.

Quote from: Jet Fission on March 14, 2015, 11:27:38 PM

Quote from: tappet on March 14, 2015, 11:22:28 PM

Quote from: Mikey T Lovzballs on March 14, 2015, 11:05:27 PM

There is no sidestepping going on.   The sun would not zig zag.  The Earth is rotating, therefore the line from you to the sun would move in a circle following the horizon all the way around during a midnight sun in the Arctic or Antarctic circle.  The Earth is very large compared to you, The sun is very very far away compared to you, the perspective would be exactly what the video shows.  Think about if you maintained your direction of view.  Does it not seem like if you are rotating around that something outside of that rotation would move around you? 
I am not sure how to explain this anymore.  The zig zag argument is a complete lack of intuition.

This is rubbish. Any moron can take 4 steps in a circle outside whilst looking at the sun and it zig zags.
Now go ahead, give me another laugh tell me it does not.

It.. doesn't. You're probably focusing to much on your surroundings. There's a reason why there is a common  metaphor for how the moon and the sun always seem to follow you around.

If the sun moved around because you did, then you would literally see the sun pass you while you look at it while driving. This obviously does not happen.

Eh, I was just outside looking up at the sun taking 4 steps in a circle and the sun moved side to side.
I think you need to stop playing computer and get outside for a reality check.

You do realize that that is literally impossible, even if the Earth was flat right? Either you're trolling, or I'm misunderstanding you.

Maybe, to understand your perspective, I need to think of the mug as dangling from a string from the ceiling,  and then when I walk in a circle, I keep rotating my body towards the cup. This is why I was asking about the tilt. When I would previously walk the circle I would turn by walking backwards, while your perspective is to keep walking the circle forwards, with the sun above you? So from your perspective you are rotating around the sun, while my perspective I was rotating to the side of it.  I am trying to understand the curvature expect.

Quote from: tappet on March 14, 2015, 11:33:31 PM

Quote from: Jet Fission on March 14, 2015, 11:27:38 PM

Quote from: tappet on March 14, 2015, 11:22:28 PM

Quote from: Mikey T Lovzballs on March 14, 2015, 11:05:27 PM

There is no sidestepping going on.   The sun would not zig zag.  The Earth is rotating, therefore the line from you to the sun would move in a circle following the horizon all the way around during a midnight sun in the Arctic or Antarctic circle.  The Earth is very large compared to you, The sun is very very far away compared to you, the perspective would be exactly what the video shows.  Think about if you maintained your direction of view.  Does it not seem like if you are rotating around that something outside of that rotation would move around you? 
I am not sure how to explain this anymore.  The zig zag argument is a complete lack of intuition.

This is rubbish. Any moron can take 4 steps in a circle outside whilst looking at the sun and it zig zags.
Now go ahead, give me another laugh tell me it does not.

It.. doesn't. You're probably focusing to much on your surroundings. There's a reason why there is a common  metaphor for how the moon and the sun always seem to follow you around.

If the sun moved around because you did, then you would literally see the sun pass you while you look at it while driving. This obviously does not happen.

Eh, I was just outside looking up at the sun taking 4 steps in a circle and the sun moved side to side.
I think you need to stop playing computer and get outside for a reality check.

You do realize that that is literally impossible, even if the Earth was flat right? Either you're trolling, or I'm misunderstanding you.

Yeh, just did it again with a welding helmet on and got the same result.
Sun still went side to side.

Quote from: Jet Fission on March 14, 2015, 11:35:48 PM

Quote from: tappet on March 14, 2015, 11:33:31 PM

Quote from: Jet Fission on March 14, 2015, 11:27:38 PM

Quote from: tappet on March 14, 2015, 11:22:28 PM

Quote from: Mikey T Lovzballs on March 14, 2015, 11:05:27 PM

There is no sidestepping going on.   The sun would not zig zag.  The Earth is rotating, therefore the line from you to the sun would move in a circle following the horizon all the way around during a midnight sun in the Arctic or Antarctic circle.  The Earth is very large compared to you, The sun is very very far away compared to you, the perspective would be exactly what the video shows.  Think about if you maintained your direction of view.  Does it not seem like if you are rotating around that something outside of that rotation would move around you? 
I am not sure how to explain this anymore.  The zig zag argument is a complete lack of intuition.

This is rubbish. Any moron can take 4 steps in a circle outside whilst looking at the sun and it zig zags.
Now go ahead, give me another laugh tell me it does not.

It.. doesn't. You're probably focusing to much on your surroundings. There's a reason why there is a common  metaphor for how the moon and the sun always seem to follow you around.

If the sun moved around because you did, then you would literally see the sun pass you while you look at it while driving. This obviously does not happen.

Eh, I was just outside looking up at the sun taking 4 steps in a circle and the sun moved side to side.
I think you need to stop playing computer and get outside for a reality check.

You do realize that that is literally impossible, even if the Earth was flat right? Either you're trolling, or I'm misunderstanding you.

Yeh, just did it again with a welding helmet on and got the same result.
Sun still went side to side.

I'm going to have to say you're lying. Not only has nobody here experienced this, but it's mathematically impossible.

You can experiment it by getting a tripod and mounting a camera on it. Put it on a flat field, and point the camera at the sun. Then, without changing the orientation of the tripod, move it a few meters to the right or left. The sun will stay in the viewfinder. If it doesn't, then you've just proved that that sun is literally 10 meters away from everybody at the same time.

How far do you think the sun is from you right now?

You can experiment it by getting a tripod and mounting a camera on it.

Or you can do the experiment with a welding helmet on your head and walk in a circle looking at the sun.
That way you see with your own eyes.

Quote from: Jet Fission on March 14, 2015, 11:50:10 PM

You can experiment it by getting a tripod and mounting a camera on it.

Or you can do the experiment with a welding helmet on your head and walk in a circle looking at the sun.
That way you see with your own eyes.

I rather eliminate user error. You're probably moving your head around. I just hope you realize that even flat earthers disagree with what you're saying right now. Try the experiment.

Quote from: tappet on March 14, 2015, 11:57:22 PM

Quote from: Jet Fission on March 14, 2015, 11:50:10 PM

You can experiment it by getting a tripod and mounting a camera on it.

Or you can do the experiment with a welding helmet on your head and walk in a circle looking at the sun.
That way you see with your own eyes.

I rather eliminate user error. You're probably moving your head around. I just hope you realize that even flat earthers disagree with what you're saying right now. Try the experiment.

The camera is the user error.
Fell for that in the past.
And even flat earthers disagreeing. Who cares?

Quote from: Jet Fission on March 15, 2015, 12:00:35 AM

Quote from: tappet on March 14, 2015, 11:57:22 PM

Quote from: Jet Fission on March 14, 2015, 11:50:10 PM

You can experiment it by getting a tripod and mounting a camera on it.

Or you can do the experiment with a welding helmet on your head and walk in a circle looking at the sun.
That way you see with your own eyes.

I rather eliminate user error. You're probably moving your head around. I just hope you realize that even flat earthers disagree with what you're saying right now. Try the experiment.

The camera is the user error.
Fell for that in the past.
And even flat earthers disagreeing. Who cares?

Yep, you've fell for logic and basic spatial reasoning. If you're not willing to try the simple experiment, or listening to basic logic, then I'm done with you. Have fun getting picked apart tomorrow.

Quote from: tappet on March 15, 2015, 12:04:34 AM

Quote from: Jet Fission on March 15, 2015, 12:00:35 AM

Quote from: tappet on March 14, 2015, 11:57:22 PM

Quote from: Jet Fission on March 14, 2015, 11:50:10 PM

You can experiment it by getting a tripod and mounting a camera on it.

Or you can do the experiment with a welding helmet on your head and walk in a circle looking at the sun.
That way you see with your own eyes.

I rather eliminate user error. You're probably moving your head around. I just hope you realize that even flat earthers disagree with what you're saying right now. Try the experiment.

The camera is the user error.
Fell for that in the past.
And even flat earthers disagreeing. Who cares?

Yep, you've fell for logic and basic spatial reasoning. If you're not willing to try the simple experiment, or listening to basic logic, then I'm done with you. Have fun getting picked apart tomorrow.

And if you think the camera tells the truth I am done with you.
The only thing that will be picked apart tomorrow will be my bait, I will be fishing. Cant play computer every day otherwise nothing gets done.

Quote from: Jet Fission on March 15, 2015, 12:07:40 AM

Quote from: tappet on March 15, 2015, 12:04:34 AM

Quote from: Jet Fission on March 15, 2015, 12:00:35 AM

Quote from: tappet on March 14, 2015, 11:57:22 PM

Quote from: Jet Fission on March 14, 2015, 11:50:10 PM

You can experiment it by getting a tripod and mounting a camera on it.

Or you can do the experiment with a welding helmet on your head and walk in a circle looking at the sun.
That way you see with your own eyes.

I rather eliminate user error. You're probably moving your head around. I just hope you realize that even flat earthers disagree with what you're saying right now. Try the experiment.

The camera is the user error.
Fell for that in the past.
And even flat earthers disagreeing. Who cares?

Yep, you've fell for logic and basic spatial reasoning. If you're not willing to try the simple experiment, or listening to basic logic, then I'm done with you. Have fun getting picked apart tomorrow.

And if you think the camera tells the truth I am done with you.
The only thing that will be picked apart tomorrow will be my bait, I will be fishing. Cant play computer every day otherwise nothing gets done.

It's almost like that is a metaphor for trolling. Presenting bait for people to catch on to.

Since there is no possible way the the camera can interfere with results, then I'm going to stick with removing user error. You can continue in the dark ages. From my experience, and everyone else here, the sun doesn't move from side to side as you move. You can prove this with trigonometry by measuring the distance to the sun and the distance you move.

In reality though, you most likely sucked at geometry. Because this is so incredibly basic to grasp, even an elementary schooler could.

Since there is no possible way the the camera can interfere with results,

Is that a fact?
Why don't you get ausGeoff to show you his famous photo from "Curve Beach". It has a very nice left to right earth curvature.
Hey! I even put a video on this forum of a flying boat once. Now boats don't fly do they?

If you can observe (let's say within Arctic circle during one Polar Night) how circumpolar stars make PERFECT circles in the sky (daily parallax), then during one Polar Day you should also be able to observe how the Sun makes PERFECT circle in the sky (it's daily parallax).

How in the world you can justify Parallax of the Stars which happens during the Polar Night, if in the same time you are not willing to admit that the same phenomena should be observable (on the same geometrical basis) while watching the Sun during one Polar Day?

This thing is perfectly clear and beyond any dispute, only totally insane people can keep going with questioning such a simple and obvious concept!

We have put this ZIGZAG (parallax) concept through paces, and we proved beyond any reasonable doubt that this concept is 100 % proof against the rotation of the Earth.

As soon as there is no rotation of the Earth, everything falls to pieces!

P.S. Have you ever asked yourself this question:

How come that you can see daily parallax of the stars in the sky, but you are not able to see annual stellar parallax in the sky???

On top of that:

One daily parallax (which we CAN observe) allegedly happens within few thousands miles wide circle.

One annual parallax (which we CAN'T observe) allegedly happens within 188 000 000 miles wide circle.

This is my video animation of my ZIGZAG argument : " class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

This is Rory's video animation of my ZIGZAG argument : " class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

If you can observe (let's say within Arctic circle during one Polar Night) how circumpolar stars make PERFECT circles in the sky (daily parallax), then during one Polar Day you should also be able to observe how the Sun makes PERFECT circle in the sky (it's daily parallax).

That's not parallax, that's rotation. They're different.

How in the world you can justify Parallax of the Stars which happens during the Polar Night, if in the same time you are not willing to admit that the same phenomena should be observable (on the same geometrical basis) while watching the Sun during one Polar Day?

Since what you're describing is not parallax, the question is moot.

This thing is perfectly clear and beyond any dispute,

Yes.

only totally insane people can keep going with questioning such a simple and obvious concept!

Yes, but you're the one that appears not to grasp the obvious and keeps arguing from a position not supported by any evidence. Recognizing that you have a problem is the first step to recovery.

We have put this ZIGZAG (parallax) concept through paces,

And it utterly failed. It's time to move on.

and we proved beyond any reasonable doubt that this concept is 100 % proof against the rotation of the Earth.

Where? The claims presented as "proof" are simply misconceptions.

As soon as there is no rotation of the Earth, everything falls to pieces!

As soon as there is no rotation of the Earth, we'd notice immediately. And, yes, everything would fall to pieces because a change like that would make any climate change we're experiencing now completely insignificant in comparison. But why would this happen?

P.S. Have you ever asked yourself this question:

How come that you can see daily parallax of the stars in the sky, but you are not able to see annual stellar parallax in the sky???

No. It never occurred to me to ask that question, because there's no reason to. You cannot see daily parallax of the stars. With good instruments and careful measurement, you can see annual parallax in nearby stars. You are confusing rotation with parallax. They're not the same.

On top of that:

One daily parallax (which we CAN observe) allegedly happens within few thousands miles wide circle.

Nope. See above. Parallax ≠ Rotation. [Please comment if the "not equal to" symbol between 'Parallax' and 'Rotation' doesn't show up correctly. This is an experiment]

One annual parallax (which we CAN'T observe) allegedly happens within 188 000 000 miles wide circle.

The annual parallax of the Sun is easily observed. That's what makes the sun appear to change positions against the distant stars as the year progresses. Because we're orbiting the Sun, it makes a full circle around the ecliptic in a year. As already noted, nearby stars show small but measurable parallax vs. more distant ones.

This is my video animation of my ZIGZAG argument : <link to amateurish error-filled video>

This is Rory's video animation of my ZIGZAG argument : <link to another error-filled video with better production quality>

Both chock full'o'errors.

  Okay guys, walk in a small circle, and focus on an object. (like a mug)  Initially the object will move in a straight line one direction (from your perspective) but as you begin to complete the circle, the object will begin to reverse back to it's original location. (from your perspective)

... unless I have the perspective wrong. Where I should be thinking in terms of up, up, and up, instead of sideways. (If you know what I mean?) Do you believe it is the tilt, that gives the perspective?

Within the arctic (or antarctic) circle, but not at the pole, the horizon or distant hills, etc, are outside the circumference of whatever latitude you would be standing at.  While you slowly turn and track the sun for that 24 hour period, the horizon is what moves in relation to the sun (which obviously appears to move the other way).



Find a desktop globe, put your finger just within the arctic circle, orientate your finger on something distant (hundreds of meters, a mile, the further the better), now turn the globe.  The horizon on the globe in respect to your fingertip will move a constant direction, not zigzag.