Simple Balloon "Rocket"...

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sceptimatic

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1140 on: December 17, 2014, 10:01:27 AM »
If you do not believe that humans can create a vacuum, which is startling to me. Then why not go to a vacuum chamber, step inside and have them turn it on. Nothing will happen if you are right.
This is showing you up severely. Do you know what a vacuum is?
I cannot in good conscious believe that you do not think humans can create a vacuum.
Well believe it because it cannot be done by humans.

We can create metals that withstand bombs and other tremendous force, and all creating a vacuum is is sucking the gasses out of a space.
There is no sucking involved. Nothing sucks, it's all push on push.

Do you think in 2014 we do not possess a Hoover strong enough to suck the vast majority of gasses out of a space?
Nothing sucks and a hoover may push a low pressure but that's it. No vacuum.
However, lets go along with your hypothesis that all human technology is smoke and mirrors and held together with duct tape. Even if said lab could remove half the air pressure from a room, or even a 1/16th of the pressure, then you would see an equal drop in the items weight under denpressure. Not a perfect vacuum, since you think we don't have the knowledge to do those but still able to prove or disprove your theory. So its hard for me to sit back and discard a vacuum chamber experiment when even a partial vacuum would provide the proof needed.
Try it and see.
I am being truthful, I am trying to understand denpressure by asking for the math behind it. That is how I understand things, if I didn't care then I wouldn't ask for the math.
You won't understand it with math. You have to understand it for what it does before you apply anything to it like that.
To say I don't need equations to understand it is the same as a person telling me that God works in mysterious ways and to just have faith and never question him ever. That kind of thinking led to the dark ages.
This isn't a god, this is something that is in your face and real, unlike gravity which is like believing you can calculate the presence of a ghost.
Speaking of math, how could you say that trig doesn't prove anything with the sun or earth? It most certainly does. It doesn't stop working just because the thing is far away. You could from New Jersey look at the New World Trade Center Tower in New York City, measure the angle and as long as you know the distance to the base of the vertical you are observing know the height of it to within inches.
You need a reference point, as you point out. You have none where pretend space is concerned.
Again, I do not see how knowing that math is the true language of the universe and understanding it means I am indoctrinated.
there's math and there's bullshit math. It's up to you to grasp which one is aiding us and which is duping us.

You presented a theory that under every test we have performed fails, and I have a theory that has an equation that under virtually all circumstances has stood up to the tests thrown at it for a few hundred years.
It's never failed anything. It passes all the tests, you just don;t accept that it does.
Hell man, if you know the Truth(tm) then why havent you written a book about it, even if its only published online. I can tell you I would be the first person to read it.
I have written a book on it, well, not fully, I'm 56 A4 sheets into it all. Still another similar amount to finish off.

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mikeman7918

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1141 on: December 17, 2014, 10:03:16 AM »
You make an observation, in this case denpressure. You layout your claims which you have done. Then you test your claims and see if they support your claims.
I have tested it all and it's true. I've done all the tests and that's why I know it's all true. Any genuine person can do all the tests abnd find it's all true. Unfortunately there are too many liars among you. Not saying you are one but tehre's a good few.
We have used a vacuum chamber to show you weight doesn't change in a vacuum, we have practically begged you to provide an equation for denpressure so we could plug in some numbers and see if the numbers it spits out are what can be observed in reality and you cant, we have shown multiple hypotheticals that even before the testing phase blow holes in your theory.
No, you have used a lie by a person who is untrustworthy, who wouldn't follow the plan.
I get it, the scientific community needs people with your willingness to look outside the box for theories, to question everything is the greatest trait of a scientist. However, you lack the other half of what makes a great scientist; the will to let your theory's go when they are proven wrong time and again.
No, the scientific community don't need anyone like me. They need people who can aid them in in keeping up a ruse which is why free energy is not given to us because it's all about control and power.
You are wrong, if you produced an equation that spit out things observable in the real world I would be the first to take a long hard second look at your theory.
If you were that truthful you would try and understand denpressure instead of taking every opportunity to attempt to ridicule it, aided by a posse of other globalists.
If you understood it then you could test it out and prove it to yourself. Will you? Like shite you will.
But you cant, and your weak attempts to claim that understanding math and physics is "indoctrination" is just a defense mechanism to cover the fact that you have indoctrinated yourself and are terrified to let your delusion go.
You don't need equations to understand it. You only need them when putting it to use. Strangely it's in use every day but masked by bullshit gravity.
High School trig proves the world is round, high school trig proves the sun is millions upon millions of miles away, a hundred dollar telescope would prove the ISS is real, going to a lab with an accurate scale and asking politely to use their vacuum chamber to test a theory would prove air pressure has nothing to do with holding items down or weight.
Trig does not prove anything about the sun or the Earth or anything else like that. It can prove stuff on Earth when used for Earth going things.
The rest of it is bullshit, where so called planets are concerned.
Don't sit here and claim that because we believe that numbers do not lie that we are indoctrinated, out of the people in this debate you are the only person operating on blind faith and indoctrination.
You are indoctrinated, severely. So severely that as an adult it's masked your ability to actually rid yourself of the santa claus syndrome.
If you gave yourself a small amount of time to genuinely look at this stuff in a real light, you would see it for what it is. Clap trap.
Math is basically logic in it's purest form and it is capable of describing and proving things as well as predicting them.  If you made and posted a denpressure equasion then anyone with high school level math skills would be able to prove it for themselves mathematically.

I noticed that you mentioned free energy, I am the kind of person who needs to see proofs of a physics concept before I accept it as fact and when I first learned that energy cannot be created or destroyed I didn't believe it.  For about 3 years I came up with many designs for free energy machines that never worked because if some law of physics that I overlooked, and that's how I know that the law of conservation of energy is true.  In the process of doing this I learned a lot about physics and that's how I became so fascinated with it.  I experimented with many things from rockets to circuitry and I have never encountered anything to make me believe that physics is all a lie.

The more I learned about physics, the more I realized that math plays a huge roll.  Every object behaves according to mathematical rules, and the brilliant thing about math is that it can be proven or disproven via dimensional analysis, algebra, and real world observations.  Any true theory should have mathematics backing it up, so please get to work on that denpressure equasion.  If your equasion conforms with observations even better then gravity then I will become a flat earther.
I am having a video war with Jeranism.
See the thread about it here.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1142 on: December 17, 2014, 10:06:37 AM »

There is a formula,
F+fv+EV/DM*rM

There you go. There's my formula.
F is force.
fv is frequency of vibration
EV is expansion and volume

DM is density and mass
rM is resistance of mass.
I gave people what they asked for. If you don't accept it, tough.

but now there isn't.

I haven't made a formula for it. So how can it be tested?
Denpressure will always be my theory. It would never be accepted even if a formula for it was produced.
I'll stick to mine that can.
I could put up a formula for it but I would have to basically change everything to my way for it, discarding your gravity.
Scepti, did you provide a formula for denpressure?  Yes or no.
Nope. I provided a formula.

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mikeman7918

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1143 on: December 17, 2014, 10:22:48 AM »
If you do not believe that humans can create a vacuum, which is startling to me. Then why not go to a vacuum chamber, step inside and have them turn it on. Nothing will happen if you are right.
This is showing you up severely. Do you know what a vacuum is?
I cannot in good conscious believe that you do not think humans can create a vacuum.
Well believe it because it cannot be done by humans.

We can create metals that withstand bombs and other tremendous force, and all creating a vacuum is is sucking the gasses out of a space.
There is no sucking involved. Nothing sucks, it's all push on push.

Do you think in 2014 we do not possess a Hoover strong enough to suck the vast majority of gasses out of a space?
Nothing sucks and a hoover may push a low pressure but that's it. No vacuum.
However, lets go along with your hypothesis that all human technology is smoke and mirrors and held together with duct tape. Even if said lab could remove half the air pressure from a room, or even a 1/16th of the pressure, then you would see an equal drop in the items weight under denpressure. Not a perfect vacuum, since you think we don't have the knowledge to do those but still able to prove or disprove your theory. So its hard for me to sit back and discard a vacuum chamber experiment when even a partial vacuum would provide the proof needed.
Try it and see.
I am being truthful, I am trying to understand denpressure by asking for the math behind it. That is how I understand things, if I didn't care then I wouldn't ask for the math.
You won't understand it with math. You have to understand it for what it does before you apply anything to it like that.
To say I don't need equations to understand it is the same as a person telling me that God works in mysterious ways and to just have faith and never question him ever. That kind of thinking led to the dark ages.
This isn't a god, this is something that is in your face and real, unlike gravity which is like believing you can calculate the presence of a ghost.
Speaking of math, how could you say that trig doesn't prove anything with the sun or earth? It most certainly does. It doesn't stop working just because the thing is far away. You could from New Jersey look at the New World Trade Center Tower in New York City, measure the angle and as long as you know the distance to the base of the vertical you are observing know the height of it to within inches.
You need a reference point, as you point out. You have none where pretend space is concerned.
Again, I do not see how knowing that math is the true language of the universe and understanding it means I am indoctrinated.
there's math and there's bullshit math. It's up to you to grasp which one is aiding us and which is duping us.

You presented a theory that under every test we have performed fails, and I have a theory that has an equation that under virtually all circumstances has stood up to the tests thrown at it for a few hundred years.
It's never failed anything. It passes all the tests, you just don;t accept that it does.
Hell man, if you know the Truth(tm) then why havent you written a book about it, even if its only published online. I can tell you I would be the first person to read it.
I have written a book on it, well, not fully, I'm 56 A4 sheets into it all. Still another similar amount to finish off.
I am not one to just believe what I am told, my scientific acceptance came with much testing.  I used to think that things like the law of conservation of energy and general relativity were nonsense until I learned more about them and did tests to prove them.  I have played with electricity, launched rockets, programmed computers, experimented with rotation and momentum, and many other such things.  Don't you try to tell me that it's all a lie, because I have experienced a lot of science first hand.
I am having a video war with Jeranism.
See the thread about it here.

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29silhouette

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1144 on: December 17, 2014, 10:32:57 AM »
Scepti, did you provide a formula for denpressure?  Yes or no.
Nope. I provided a formula.
What is the formula you provided for?

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Lemmiwinks

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1145 on: December 17, 2014, 10:38:15 AM »
So now you'll argue semantics with me? It doesn't matter if its sucked or pushed or removed or teleported or wished out by tapping your heels three times together, the process is the same, remove the matter from the area. How hard is that? If we can make a submarine that can go to the bottom of the Marianas Trench, then we can handle making a container that can hold a vacuum. So I assume your issue is that we cant for some reason remove the gasses from the space?

A scale being put into a vacuum (or partial one if you must) was tried, and posted here and you called him a liar. So I can only assume that anyone on earth that tries that and comes up with the obvious answer that no, air doesn't hold things down, will then be a liar to you as well. Why would I, using Legions words when telling me why he wont look at the ISS himself, waste my money and time with that?

For the trig part, yes you do need a reference point, maybe check this thread out (http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=62431.0#.VJHMCSuInkU) It explains the premise of the experiment, if you have issues with its methodology then I would recommend posting there.

And no, there is Math and there is Math. There is no such thing as bullshit math because math is incapable of telling a lie.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 10:41:37 AM by Lemmiwinks »
I have 13 [academic qualifications] actually. I'll leave it up to you to guess which, or simply call me a  liar. Either is fine.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1146 on: December 17, 2014, 10:39:35 AM »
Scepti, did you provide a formula for denpressure?  Yes or no.
Nope. I provided a formula.
What is the formula you provided for?
Trivity.

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JimmyTheCrab

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1147 on: December 17, 2014, 10:51:14 AM »
Is denpressure.. falsifiable?
It's better than that, it's falsified.

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29silhouette

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1148 on: December 17, 2014, 10:55:25 AM »
Scepti, did you provide a formula for denpressure?  Yes or no.
Nope. I provided a formula.
What is the formula you provided for?
Trivity.
I see.  What is "trivity"?

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Lemmiwinks

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1149 on: December 17, 2014, 10:59:51 AM »
I have 13 [academic qualifications] actually. I'll leave it up to you to guess which, or simply call me a  liar. Either is fine.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

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mikeman7918

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1150 on: December 17, 2014, 11:58:23 AM »
Scepti, did you provide a formula for denpressure?  Yes or no.
Nope. I provided a formula.
What is the formula you provided for?
Trivity.
Ummm... Your formula was proven to be crap by me and one or two others independently using dimensional analisis to prove that your equasion outputs units that are nonsense.  Face it, your denpressure equasion is junk.
I am having a video war with Jeranism.
See the thread about it here.

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Orifiel

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1151 on: December 17, 2014, 08:01:53 PM »
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/N/Newtons_laws_of_motion.html

You should sit under an apple tree septic.
Why? what does that prove?
Can you explain why a rocket works as we are led to believe, or not?

If you can, then put up a diagram and explain it better than Geoffrey did, as to how it manages to push itself up without the aid of atmosphere.

Your physics works...but you forgot to use equal and opposite reactions in the last part. The atmospheric pressure does indeed push the air out of the balloon as a result of the high pressure in the balloon diffusing into the lower pressure atmosphere, and when this happens you generate a force outside of the balloon, but this force has a back end which links to the front of the balloon also and this is what pushes it
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sceptimatic

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1152 on: December 18, 2014, 03:03:08 AM »
Scepti, did you provide a formula for denpressure?  Yes or no.
Nope. I provided a formula.
What is the formula you provided for?
Trivity.
I see.  What is "trivity"?
It's an unknown force that just is.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1153 on: December 18, 2014, 03:05:00 AM »
Scepti, did you provide a formula for denpressure?  Yes or no.
Nope. I provided a formula.
What is the formula you provided for?
Trivity.
Ummm... Your formula was proven to be crap by me and one or two others independently using dimensional analisis to prove that your equasion outputs units that are nonsense.  Face it, your denpressure equasion is junk.
I've never gave you an equation for denpressure so how can you prove it wrong.
You don't even understand the simplicity of it so you're hardly in any position to debunk it.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1154 on: December 18, 2014, 03:35:28 AM »
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/N/Newtons_laws_of_motion.html

You should sit under an apple tree septic.
Why? what does that prove?
Can you explain why a rocket works as we are led to believe, or not?

If you can, then put up a diagram and explain it better than Geoffrey did, as to how it manages to push itself up without the aid of atmosphere.

Your physics works...but you forgot to use equal and opposite reactions in the last part. The atmospheric pressure does indeed push the air out of the balloon as a result of the high pressure in the balloon diffusing into the lower pressure atmosphere, and when this happens you generate a force outside of the balloon, but this force has a back end which links to the front of the balloon also and this is what pushes it
No, I didn't forget anything. You people assume a balloon pushes itself from inside. This is absolute nonsense and you should really try to understand it.
The balloon moves because of what happens outside of it by ejected air pressure.


Let me try and explain what's happening. I'm sure you'll deny it but that's your problem and is why you will forever feed into the bull crap given to you by bogus science.

As you know, when you blow up a balloon you are compressing the air into a container. In this case it's a container that expands.
The air pressure inside of this balloon is acted upon by the external pressure that the balloon has compressed out of it's way by being expanded into the atmosphere and that atmosphere pushes back onto the balloon gripping it evenly around it.

Once you open up the balloon, the compressed air inside is forced out by the EXTERNAL squeeze of the atmosphere around it that had it in a grip and you gave that
grip it's momentum to push that air out.

As that air is pushed out it hits the air that is gripping the balloon and pushes it out of the way. It's a fight of push on push.

This squeezes the balloon in the opposite direction to it's expanding compressed air.

Nothing inside the balloon is doing anything to propel it. All that is happening inside the balloon is a EQUAL action and reaction sequence.

I'll explain this simply to you.

Imagine you have a bus full of people in a fantasy near vacuum. They are crammed so tight into the bus that they are all pushing against each other in all directions to find a weak spot to relieve the pressure.
Someone tears the back door off the bus. The people at the front of the bus and those at the back are all fighting to get out and it's a knock on effect of pushing or expanding their bodies when each person ejects from the back of the bus.

Those people that are ejected can fully expand into the open space because there is nothing acting on them to resist that.
As this happens, all the rest in the bus start to expland a little more as each person is ejected in open space.
They can't force the bus in the opposite direction because they are simply falling out of that bus and expanding fully into open space. They are not expanding against resistance.

Now let's assume the same scenario with the bus but this time the people crammed inside are in an atmosphere of sponges all around the bus and everywhere.

The door opens and the same happens where one person starts to expand out of the bus...BUT, there is a problem, because this person now hits and compresses the sponges in front so cannot expand easily because the next person behind is also expanding onto him. This creates a severe push against those sponges and compresses them even more which becomes hard for the people to push those sponges out of the way because the sponges are resisting by compressing back which spring the people back as they come out and also compress against the bus forcing it forwards as they come out the back.

Now if you read what I've said carefully it should make sense to you. I bet it won't because your head has been battered into submission by thinking that a rocket works by kicking itself up its own arse and your common sense should laugh at this, because it's a massive con to keep space exploits alive and kicking.


Seriously, read and understand what I've said.
If you can't. then  I urge anyone with a brain to look at it.

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ausGeoff

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1155 on: December 18, 2014, 03:39:43 AM »
Oh noes..... not this silly bus thing again!

What is this?  Back to the future?

    ;D    ;D    ;D

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guv

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1156 on: December 18, 2014, 03:46:36 AM »
Holy shit septic, about 500 words just to tell us you are a dickhead, we new that.

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Conker

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1157 on: December 18, 2014, 05:11:44 AM »
Not going to quote all of your post, just using this as a marker to whom am I answering to.

You have quite a problem there. Potential energy depends on the existance of a force field, and in fact, its the result of an object changing position towards a higher potential zone in the field (an electron going towards a - charged plate gains potential energy, for example).Now there's two problems with denpressure here.

  • What field is causing the ball to gain potential energy?
  • In the case of the field to be denpressure's pressure field, then decreasing the field should cause the energy to decrease

Im just gonna quote myself until scepti answers this.
Scepti, dont understimate my stubbornness. You claim to be a zeteticist. Why are you ignoring evidence?

Once again, here we go:

Scepti, this is serious problem with the definition of denpressure. I will keep quoting myself until answered.

Regarding you thought experiment, sponges arent fluid. In a gasseous atmosphere, flowing takes less work than compressing the air back in a spring like fashion. This flux in a direction is what causes the balloon to move (via momentum). You are also ignoring that any compresion/deompresion of an area compresses/decompresses nearby areas. If you take a minute thinking on it, you will notice that, mostly all of the energy is disipated, except that one that hits the balloon. Indeed, this effect may actually help with the movement of the balloon.
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sceptimatic

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1158 on: December 18, 2014, 06:24:25 AM »
Not going to quote all of your post, just using this as a marker to whom am I answering to.

You have quite a problem there. Potential energy depends on the existance of a force field, and in fact, its the result of an object changing position towards a higher potential zone in the field (an electron going towards a - charged plate gains potential energy, for example).Now there's two problems with denpressure here.

  • What field is causing the ball to gain potential energy?
  • In the case of the field to be denpressure's pressure field, then decreasing the field should cause the energy to decrease

Im just gonna quote myself until scepti answers this.
Scepti, dont understimate my stubbornness. You claim to be a zeteticist. Why are you ignoring evidence?

Once again, here we go:

Scepti, this is serious problem with the definition of denpressure. I will keep quoting myself until answered.

Regarding you thought experiment, sponges arent fluid. In a gasseous atmosphere, flowing takes less work than compressing the air back in a spring like fashion. This flux in a direction is what causes the balloon to move (via momentum). You are also ignoring that any compresion/deompresion of an area compresses/decompresses nearby areas. If you take a minute thinking on it, you will notice that, mostly all of the energy is disipated, except that one that hits the balloon. Indeed, this effect may actually help with the movement of the balloon.
Sponges may not be fluid but as an anology they work in the same manner as compressing air. If you cannot take an analogy for what it is then there's no point in discussing anything with you.

Stop being a weak arsed follower and use your logic for crying out loud.
It's all there in your face if you choose to look and open your indoctrinated mind to it, seriously.

You science is bogus. It's a lie. It's deliberate deviation from reality. Reality is tehre. It's in your face. Look at reality instead of books displaying fantasy as reality.
Only logical free thinkers will grasp what I'm saying. People like you will deliberately go into defence mode. You have no chance doing it like that.

You are scared to be labelled for thinking outside the box. Terrified even - because your peers, who you regard as intelligent, are merely parrots, nothing more.

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ausGeoff

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1159 on: December 18, 2014, 06:41:18 AM »
Outstanding stuff sceptimatic!

You should consider reworking the old Monty Python shows with new scripts.

I can easily see you as John Cleese.

    ;D    ;D    ;D

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Orifiel

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1160 on: December 18, 2014, 07:29:14 AM »
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/N/Newtons_laws_of_motion.html

You should sit under an apple tree septic.
Why? what does that prove?
Can you explain why a rocket works as we are led to believe, or not?

If you can, then put up a diagram and explain it better than Geoffrey did, as to how it manages to push itself up without the aid of atmosphere.

Your physics works...but you forgot to use equal and opposite reactions in the last part. The atmospheric pressure does indeed push the air out of the balloon as a result of the high pressure in the balloon diffusing into the lower pressure atmosphere, and when this happens you generate a force outside of the balloon, but this force has a back end which links to the front of the balloon also and this is what pushes it
No, I didn't forget anything. You people assume a balloon pushes itself from inside. This is absolute nonsense and you should really try to understand it.
The balloon moves because of what happens outside of it by ejected air pressure.


Let me try and explain what's happening. I'm sure you'll deny it but that's your problem and is why you will forever feed into the bull crap given to you by bogus science.

As you know, when you blow up a balloon you are compressing the air into a container. In this case it's a container that expands.
The air pressure inside of this balloon is acted upon by the external pressure that the balloon has compressed out of it's way by being expanded into the atmosphere and that atmosphere pushes back onto the balloon gripping it evenly around it.

Once you open up the balloon, the compressed air inside is forced out by the EXTERNAL squeeze of the atmosphere around it that had it in a grip and you gave that
grip it's momentum to push that air out.

As that air is pushed out it hits the air that is gripping the balloon and pushes it out of the way. It's a fight of push on push.

This squeezes the balloon in the opposite direction to it's expanding compressed air.

Nothing inside the balloon is doing anything to propel it. All that is happening inside the balloon is a EQUAL action and reaction sequence.

I'll explain this simply to you.

Imagine you have a bus full of people in a fantasy near vacuum. They are crammed so tight into the bus that they are all pushing against each other in all directions to find a weak spot to relieve the pressure.
Someone tears the back door off the bus. The people at the front of the bus and those at the back are all fighting to get out and it's a knock on effect of pushing or expanding their bodies when each person ejects from the back of the bus.

Those people that are ejected can fully expand into the open space because there is nothing acting on them to resist that.
As this happens, all the rest in the bus start to expland a little more as each person is ejected in open space.
They can't force the bus in the opposite direction because they are simply falling out of that bus and expanding fully into open space. They are not expanding against resistance.

Now let's assume the same scenario with the bus but this time the people crammed inside are in an atmosphere of sponges all around the bus and everywhere.

The door opens and the same happens where one person starts to expand out of the bus...BUT, there is a problem, because this person now hits and compresses the sponges in front so cannot expand easily because the next person behind is also expanding onto him. This creates a severe push against those sponges and compresses them even more which becomes hard for the people to push those sponges out of the way because the sponges are resisting by compressing back which spring the people back as they come out and also compress against the bus forcing it forwards as they come out the back.

Now if you read what I've said carefully it should make sense to you. I bet it won't because your head has been battered into submission by thinking that a rocket works by kicking itself up its own arse and your common sense should laugh at this, because it's a massive con to keep space exploits alive and kicking.


Seriously, read and understand what I've said.
If you can't. then  I urge anyone with a brain to look at it.

Firstly, you're quite the offensive individual and this is why no one will want to believe you.

Second, in your scenario, in actual life, this balloon would simply lose all of its air without movement. A force in one direction also exerts a force in an equal and opposite direction. You're not stupid, but your explanation only would have a full-size rocket flying up to the length of its fire, and then the rocket would have nothing to push on and fall. What I think you think I'm saying is that there is a magical force generated from the inside, but what I'm talking about is the force of ejection outside of the balloons or rockets forces the air particles still inside of the balloon to shuffle and rebound as they get knocked out of the balloon at awkward angles. This explains why a balloon doesn't go straight

Your bus doesn't work because people aren't fluids and science uses fluid dynamics to describe the movements
Je parle Français and yes, I am une fille

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sceptimatic

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1161 on: December 18, 2014, 08:14:09 AM »
Firstly, you're quite the offensive individual and this is why no one will want to believe you.
Don't sit and give me that. Take a look at some of the bozo's attacking me with put downs. I'm almost pleasant to you people, so don't use that as a belief of no belief system.
If I said it as meekly as a kitten your stance would still be the same or worse, believing that I'm a soft toucj and easy pickings for ridicule, which you can see, I'm far from it and you like-minded peers get no change playing those games.
Next time you deal with me, cut this crap out because it also doesn't get you anywhere, either.
Second, in your scenario, in actual life, this balloon would simply lose all of its air without movement. A force in one direction also exerts a force in an equal and opposite direction. You're not stupid, but your explanation only would have a full-size rocket flying up to the length of its fire, and then the rocket would have nothing to push on and fall.
No; it's not just the length of its flame and then kaput. It's about continued full thrust to weight ratio in a changing environment of more to less atmospheric pressure.
As long as the rocket is thrusting against the atmosphere at full thrust then it becomes lighter as the fuel gets expended.
It still keeps it's speed constant because of this. It cannot build up acceleration because although it's at full thrust it's also thrusting against more expanded/less dense atmosphere as it keeps its vertical fight.

This means that the thrust still does the same thing against the atmosphere in less dense air as it moves up but it is counteracted by the loss of fuel as it does so, meaning it keeps a constant motion.
The only way that motion can be changed is by arcing towards the ground.

The very second that rocket takes off; it's at full power and if it doesn't spring into the air under that full power, it becomes a heap of scrap metal in short order.
The only reason a rocket can work to gain altitude is to lift off in this manner or it immediately loses stability.

A slow rocket like the NASA ones, etc would all be a mass of burning scrap at the launch pad.
Spring board lift off or dud rocket. There's no compromise.
End result? Space rockets are fantasy.

What I think you think I'm saying is that there is a magical force generated from the inside, but what I'm talking about is the force of ejection outside of the balloons or rockets forces the air particles still inside of the balloon to shuffle and rebound as they get knocked out of the balloon at awkward angles. This explains why a balloon doesn't go straight
No they don't at all. You have this totally wrong.
Once you open that balloon nozzle, the atmospheric pressure tries to force the balloon flat or back to its original form.
The problem is, it can't do it quick enough because of the small air nozzle it's ejecting the air through, against the air that is already closing in on it from outside as it deflates.

This pushed compressed air molecules inside into expanded molecules as they release, which push through the air outside, which naturally tries to fill the higher pressure by squeezing back which pushes the balloon away.

All that's happening inside is a last one out stinks, scenario.
Your bus doesn't work because people aren't fluids and science uses fluid dynamics to describe the movements
I see you're another one that just can't grasp analogies. I'd like to believe this is on purpose but somehow I just think that you people just cannot grasp basic stuff.
That's probably because your heads are getting filled with equations the minute someone says something and it stops you frm thinking rationally.

*

Conker

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1162 on: December 18, 2014, 08:26:18 AM »
Not going to quote all of your post, just using this as a marker to whom am I answering to.

You have quite a problem there. Potential energy depends on the existance of a force field, and in fact, its the result of an object changing position towards a higher potential zone in the field (an electron going towards a - charged plate gains potential energy, for example).Now there's two problems with denpressure here.

  • What field is causing the ball to gain potential energy?
  • In the case of the field to be denpressure's pressure field, then decreasing the field should cause the energy to decrease

Im just gonna quote myself until scepti answers this.
Scepti, dont understimate my stubbornness. You claim to be a zeteticist. Why are you ignoring evidence?

Once again, here we go:

Scepti, this is serious problem with the definition of denpressure. I will keep quoting myself until answered.

Regarding you thought experiment, sponges arent fluid. In a gasseous atmosphere, flowing takes less work than compressing the air back in a spring like fashion. This flux in a direction is what causes the balloon to move (via momentum). You are also ignoring that any compresion/deompresion of an area compresses/decompresses nearby areas. If you take a minute thinking on it, you will notice that, mostly all of the energy is disipated, except that one that hits the balloon. Indeed, this effect may actually help with the movement of the balloon.
Sponges may not be fluid but as an anology they work in the same manner as compressing air. If you cannot take an analogy for what it is then there's no point in discussing anything with you.

The purpose of an analogy is to resist analysis. If you make a shitty analogy, dont expect me to accept it.

Quote
Stop being a weak arsed follower and use your logic for crying out loud.
It's all there in your face if you choose to look and open your indoctrinated mind to it, seriously.

You science is bogus. It's a lie. It's deliberate deviation from reality. Reality is tehre. It's in your face. Look at reality instead of books displaying fantasy as reality.
Only logical free thinkers will grasp what I'm saying. People like you will deliberately go into defence mode. You have no chance doing it like that.
Which is why you have ignored 5 times now the original challenge to denpressure. Remember, burden of proof, and this challenge seems to be unadressed by denpressure.

Quote
You are scared to be labelled for thinking outside the box. Terrified even - because your peers, who you regard as intelligent, are merely parrots, nothing more.
I actually regard many of my peers as parrots. It doesnt terrify me on the slightest. Also, if you claim that my peers are wrong, the burden of proof is still on you. Once again, you havent given a single proof of your hypothesis, or solved clear conflicts with reality. Not only is your hypothesis incomplete and unproven, it has been proven wrong, and you havent disprooved those claims.
This is not a joke society.
Quote from: OpenedEyes
You shouldn't be allowed to talk on a free discussion forum.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1163 on: December 18, 2014, 08:33:55 AM »
Not going to quote all of your post, just using this as a marker to whom am I answering to.

You have quite a problem there. Potential energy depends on the existance of a force field, and in fact, its the result of an object changing position towards a higher potential zone in the field (an electron going towards a - charged plate gains potential energy, for example).Now there's two problems with denpressure here.

  • What field is causing the ball to gain potential energy?
  • In the case of the field to be denpressure's pressure field, then decreasing the field should cause the energy to decrease

Im just gonna quote myself until scepti answers this.
Scepti, dont understimate my stubbornness. You claim to be a zeteticist. Why are you ignoring evidence?

Once again, here we go:

Scepti, this is serious problem with the definition of denpressure. I will keep quoting myself until answered.

Regarding you thought experiment, sponges arent fluid. In a gasseous atmosphere, flowing takes less work than compressing the air back in a spring like fashion. This flux in a direction is what causes the balloon to move (via momentum). You are also ignoring that any compresion/deompresion of an area compresses/decompresses nearby areas. If you take a minute thinking on it, you will notice that, mostly all of the energy is disipated, except that one that hits the balloon. Indeed, this effect may actually help with the movement of the balloon.
Sponges may not be fluid but as an anology they work in the same manner as compressing air. If you cannot take an analogy for what it is then there's no point in discussing anything with you.

The purpose of an analogy is to resist analysis. If you make a shitty analogy, dont expect me to accept it.

Quote
Stop being a weak arsed follower and use your logic for crying out loud.
It's all there in your face if you choose to look and open your indoctrinated mind to it, seriously.

You science is bogus. It's a lie. It's deliberate deviation from reality. Reality is tehre. It's in your face. Look at reality instead of books displaying fantasy as reality.
Only logical free thinkers will grasp what I'm saying. People like you will deliberately go into defence mode. You have no chance doing it like that.
Which is why you have ignored 5 times now the original challenge to denpressure. Remember, burden of proof, and this challenge seems to be unadressed by denpressure.

Quote
You are scared to be labelled for thinking outside the box. Terrified even - because your peers, who you regard as intelligent, are merely parrots, nothing more.
I actually regard many of my peers as parrots. It doesnt terrify me on the slightest. Also, if you claim that my peers are wrong, the burden of proof is still on you. Once again, you havent given a single proof of your hypothesis, or solved clear conflicts with reality. Not only is your hypothesis incomplete and unproven, it has been proven wrong, and you havent disprooved those claims.
No, it hasn't been proven wrong and this is simply tit for tat and I will go on as long as necessary to give you the same crap back in your tit for tat pretence that my theory is proven wrong.

I've proved gravity is bullcrap, 100%. There isn't even an argument except for people's reliance on the fantasy of it.
You can't even explain it for crying out loud. It just simply is and that's that. You people are happy with it because the fantasy explains what you want to believe is true for some strange reason.

To actually believe you live on a spinning ball in space is ridiculous enough for those people who've looked into it.
Those who haven't are the ones that can be excused. You have no excuse.

Change your physics books on this stuff. Bin them because they are not worth a carrot.

*

Conker

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  • Official FES jerk / kneebiter
Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1164 on: December 18, 2014, 08:52:23 AM »
Blah blah blah, too long.
No, it hasn't been proven wrong and this is simply tit for tat and I will go on as long as necessary to give you the same crap back in your tit for tat pretence that my theory is proven wrong.

I've proved gravity is bullcrap, 100%. There isn't even an argument except for people's reliance on the fantasy of it.
You can't even explain it for crying out loud. It just simply is and that's that. You people are happy with it because the fantasy explains what you want to believe is true for some strange reason.

To actually believe you live on a spinning ball in space is ridiculous enough for those people who've looked into it.
Those who haven't are the ones that can be excused. You have no excuse.

Change your physics books on this stuff. Bin them because they are not worth a carrot.

This isnt a boxing match, scepti. Even if I granted you that gravity was proven wrong (it hasnt), it tells us NOTHING about the truth of you claims. You provide NO evidence for your claims, and you havent answered to the challenges that you have been given. I have proven my claims of your hypothesis being wrong, and you havent disproven them. Your hypothesis cant explain pendulums in a vacuum (or, if you only believe in partial vacuum, you cant explain the ascense in the amount of energy conservated by the pendulum, for that matter), since the field that causes (acording to you) the pendulum's movement has decreased. THE FORCE THAT PULLS THE BALLS DOWN IS DECREASING ON A VACUUM CHAMBER, acording to denpressure. When you address this clear challenge, your hypothesis cant be accepted, since evidence suggests it is false. Remember, this has NOTHING to do with RET being or not correct, or gravity. Your hypothesis is being evaluated on its own.
This is not a joke society.
Quote from: OpenedEyes
You shouldn't be allowed to talk on a free discussion forum.

*

mikeman7918

  • 5431
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  • Round Earther
Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1165 on: December 18, 2014, 08:59:56 AM »
Firstly, you're quite the offensive individual and this is why no one will want to believe you.
Don't sit and give me that. Take a look at some of the bozo's attacking me with put downs. I'm almost pleasant to you people, so don't use that as a belief of no belief system.
If I said it as meekly as a kitten your stance would still be the same or worse, believing that I'm a soft toucj and easy pickings for ridicule, which you can see, I'm far from it and you like-minded peers get no change playing those games.
Next time you deal with me, cut this crap out because it also doesn't get you anywhere, either.
Second, in your scenario, in actual life, this balloon would simply lose all of its air without movement. A force in one direction also exerts a force in an equal and opposite direction. You're not stupid, but your explanation only would have a full-size rocket flying up to the length of its fire, and then the rocket would have nothing to push on and fall.
No; it's not just the length of its flame and then kaput. It's about continued full thrust to weight ratio in a changing environment of more to less atmospheric pressure.
As long as the rocket is thrusting against the atmosphere at full thrust then it becomes lighter as the fuel gets expended.
It still keeps it's speed constant because of this. It cannot build up acceleration because although it's at full thrust it's also thrusting against more expanded/less dense atmosphere as it keeps its vertical fight.

This means that the thrust still does the same thing against the atmosphere in less dense air as it moves up but it is counteracted by the loss of fuel as it does so, meaning it keeps a constant motion.
The only way that motion can be changed is by arcing towards the ground.

The very second that rocket takes off; it's at full power and if it doesn't spring into the air under that full power, it becomes a heap of scrap metal in short order.
The only reason a rocket can work to gain altitude is to lift off in this manner or it immediately loses stability.

A slow rocket like the NASA ones, etc would all be a mass of burning scrap at the launch pad.
Spring board lift off or dud rocket. There's no compromise.
End result? Space rockets are fantasy.

What I think you think I'm saying is that there is a magical force generated from the inside, but what I'm talking about is the force of ejection outside of the balloons or rockets forces the air particles still inside of the balloon to shuffle and rebound as they get knocked out of the balloon at awkward angles. This explains why a balloon doesn't go straight
No they don't at all. You have this totally wrong.
Once you open that balloon nozzle, the atmospheric pressure tries to force the balloon flat or back to its original form.
The problem is, it can't do it quick enough because of the small air nozzle it's ejecting the air through, against the air that is already closing in on it from outside as it deflates.

This pushed compressed air molecules inside into expanded molecules as they release, which push through the air outside, which naturally tries to fill the higher pressure by squeezing back which pushes the balloon away.

All that's happening inside is a last one out stinks, scenario.
Your bus doesn't work because people aren't fluids and science uses fluid dynamics to describe the movements
I see you're another one that just can't grasp analogies. I'd like to believe this is on purpose but somehow I just think that you people just cannot grasp basic stuff.
That's probably because your heads are getting filled with equations the minute someone says something and it stops you frm thinking rationally.
It never fails to amaze me how little you know about physics.  If you actually knew anything about what you are rejecting then you would know that it's true.
I am having a video war with Jeranism.
See the thread about it here.

*

Orifiel

  • 226
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  • Stalwart Pumpkin god supporter
Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1166 on: December 18, 2014, 09:06:29 AM »
Not going to quote all of your post, just using this as a marker to whom am I answering to.

You have quite a problem there. Potential energy depends on the existance of a force field, and in fact, its the result of an object changing position towards a higher potential zone in the field (an electron going towards a - charged plate gains potential energy, for example).Now there's two problems with denpressure here.

  • What field is causing the ball to gain potential energy?
  • In the case of the field to be denpressure's pressure field, then decreasing the field should cause the energy to decrease

Im just gonna quote myself until scepti answers this.
Scepti, dont understimate my stubbornness. You claim to be a zeteticist. Why are you ignoring evidence?

Once again, here we go:

Scepti, this is serious problem with the definition of denpressure. I will keep quoting myself until answered.

Regarding you thought experiment, sponges arent fluid. In a gasseous atmosphere, flowing takes less work than compressing the air back in a spring like fashion. This flux in a direction is what causes the balloon to move (via momentum). You are also ignoring that any compresion/deompresion of an area compresses/decompresses nearby areas. If you take a minute thinking on it, you will notice that, mostly all of the energy is disipated, except that one that hits the balloon. Indeed, this effect may actually help with the movement of the balloon.
Sponges may not be fluid but as an anology they work in the same manner as compressing air. If you cannot take an analogy for what it is then there's no point in discussing anything with you.

The purpose of an analogy is to resist analysis. If you make a shitty analogy, dont expect me to accept it.

Quote
Stop being a weak arsed follower and use your logic for crying out loud.
It's all there in your face if you choose to look and open your indoctrinated mind to it, seriously.

You science is bogus. It's a lie. It's deliberate deviation from reality. Reality is tehre. It's in your face. Look at reality instead of books displaying fantasy as reality.
Only logical free thinkers will grasp what I'm saying. People like you will deliberately go into defence mode. You have no chance doing it like that.
Which is why you have ignored 5 times now the original challenge to denpressure. Remember, burden of proof, and this challenge seems to be unadressed by denpressure.

Quote
You are scared to be labelled for thinking outside the box. Terrified even - because your peers, who you regard as intelligent, are merely parrots, nothing more.
I actually regard many of my peers as parrots. It doesnt terrify me on the slightest. Also, if you claim that my peers are wrong, the burden of proof is still on you. Once again, you havent given a single proof of your hypothesis, or solved clear conflicts with reality. Not only is your hypothesis incomplete and unproven, it has been proven wrong, and you havent disprooved those claims.
No, it hasn't been proven wrong and this is simply tit for tat and I will go on as long as necessary to give you the same crap back in your tit for tat pretence that my theory is proven wrong.

I've proved gravity is bullcrap, 100%. There isn't even an argument except for people's reliance on the fantasy of it.
You can't even explain it for crying out loud. It just simply is and that's that. You people are happy with it because the fantasy explains what you want to believe is true for some strange reason.

To actually believe you live on a spinning ball in space is ridiculous enough for those people who've looked into it.
Those who haven't are the ones that can be excused. You have no excuse.

Change your physics books on this stuff. Bin them because they are not worth a carrot.

You suffer from both delusional paranoia and a personality flaw of a superiority complex. You saw my being kind to you as  me mocking you or belittling you or something but what I was attempting to do is have a simple intelligent conversation with you, which you seem to resist. Your superiority complex also is evident by your clinging to the legitimacy of your denpressure equation (which others have dimensionally analysed and saw it false) and the rebuttal that we're indoctrinated sheep who are too stupid to posses the logic that you do with your 13 degrees (which may be either a delusion and you truly believe it, or its your superiority complex attempting to compensate for your lack of understanding). Even your fellow FE 'ers, whom I respect as they're asking mentally taxing questions, don't believe the ludicrous nature of your arguments.

Your physics is abysmally under-developed and if you truly had a grasp of what gravity was in the first place, you'd see how inarguably secure the concept is. Your calculations are flawed as you tend to forget about things like friction and your spatial-visual skills are, at best, akin to that of a lunatic as you say that your explanation of how the world works would be, in act, similar to real-life by explaining how real life works, but this is flawed because it is physically hypocritical.

Become rude and offensive to me and I'll tear your theories apart by psychoanalysis and the harsh truth which you shall fervently deny.
Je parle Français and yes, I am une fille

Pumpkin god 4 lyf

*

mikeman7918

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  • Round Earther
Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1167 on: December 18, 2014, 09:17:45 AM »
I am having a video war with Jeranism.
See the thread about it here.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30076
  • +3/-4
Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1168 on: December 18, 2014, 09:45:23 AM »
This isnt a boxing match, scepti. Even if I granted you that gravity was proven wrong (it hasnt), it tells us NOTHING about the truth of you claims.
The truth of my claims requires you to use s8imple logic and you'll find that truth. refusal to do so is not my problem.

You provide NO evidence for your claims, and you havent answered to the challenges that you have been given.
I've provided plenty of evidence for you to try and you simply reject it like your likeminded peers. Again it's not my problem.

 
I have proven my claims of your hypothesis being wrong, and you havent disproven them.
No you haven't and yes I have.

Your hypothesis cant explain pendulums in a vacuum (or, if you only believe in partial vacuum, you cant explain the ascense in the amount of energy conservated by the pendulum, for that matter), since the field that causes (acording to you) the pendulum's movement has decreased.
Show me a pendulum in a vacuum?

THE FORCE THAT PULLS THE BALLS DOWN IS DECREASING ON A VACUUM CHAMBER, acording to denpressure.
There isn't any force that pulls. It's all push against push or resistance against resistance. Get some manual kitchen scales that can read below zero or set them to a specific weight and then try it out.

When you address this clear challenge, your hypothesis cant be accepted, since evidence suggests it is false. Remember, this has NOTHING to do with RET being or not correct, or gravity. Your hypothesis is being evaluated on its own.
I'm not interested in whether you accept it or not. Anyone who cares to use their logic, it will help them understand how badly they've been duped by bogus science. What you decide is entirely up to you. You're a globalist so I expect nothing from you.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #1169 on: December 18, 2014, 09:48:07 AM »
It never fails to amaze me how little you know about physics.  If you actually knew anything about what you are rejecting then you would know that it's true.
It never ceases to amaze me how little you people know about real physics.
You have copied and memorised bullcrap in abundance and believe it to be real life. It's not. My physics is more reality.