Simple Balloon "Rocket"...

It would only cost about $20.00 for a better scale that stays on for a few minutes.
[/quote]
It worked well enough. I don't need another scale.

Yap yap yap, you showed nothing. You showed a scale inside a chamber that was hard to read and decipher and whatever was on it was obscure. You didn't show the setting before you put it in - nothing.

Scales don't have settings. The check mass was of course the object on the scale, not that it matters.

You're a cheating git and if you're not then do the experiments when you have the time to do so by how I want you to set it up. Are you willing to do this?

You have the equipment, so this should be easy for you. If you come back with any response as to why you can't do it, then don't waste my time with your crap.

I can do it again, but the scale will still turn itself off. The outcome will still be the same. No change in weight.

Quote from: rottingroom on November 22, 2014, 06:23:44 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 22, 2014, 06:20:46 AM

Quote from: rottingroom on November 22, 2014, 06:18:36 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 22, 2014, 06:08:17 AM

Quote from: sokarul on November 22, 2014, 06:00:45 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 22, 2014, 05:52:50 AM

Quote from: sokarul on November 22, 2014, 05:41:32 AM

No response to the video?

Does it really merit a response?
What did you do? did you quickly set it up whilst your boss went out for a sandwich. You looked in one hell of a rush and your camera was all over the place.
It was a shit video to be honest.

If you have access to that without problems, then use it and do some experiments, starting off by showing me that scale from start to finish, in and out of the chamber.

True I didn't want people to see me, but the real reason if you noticed was the scale turns itself off. I couldn't even make it to the 20 inches of Hg.

I think the real reason you don't have a response is because it completely destroys denpressure.

Sorry, your words are meaningless. An opportunity to prove me wrong with the equipment at hand and probably all the items needed to go further and the best you can come up with, is this and then having scales shut down. It stinks and you know it.

Denpressure destroys gravity and until you directly prove otherwise by following my directions, then you're simply trying to cheat your way through it for whatever reasons you have.
If you had any truthful thought, you would do this stuff properly instead of jumping up and down saying you've destroyed my theory when you know fine well you haven't.

How do you suppose he cheated his way through it? You yourself said that it looks like he did it as quickly as he could while his boss went out for a sandwich. Wouldn't it take more time to prepare a deception? You can clearly see the scale in the machine, you can clearly see the pressure on the machine change and you can clearly see the weight on the scale not decrease.

If you think that shows any real evidence then carry on. If he wants to play it genuinely then he does it by my rules, then he has the clear right to call my theory wrong. Will he do it? let's see.

You can't possibly keep doing this. You don't seriously believe pressure will change somethings weight. It's so silly.

Of course it will change it's weight. Weight is the sole purpose of pressure. Weight is a man made measurement of pressure upon any object.
The fact is that not many people can allow themselves to think on it, which is why they can't understand what's being said, because gravity keeps creeping into their heads.

Just give me your most simple definition of pressure that you can. Not denpressure, just pressure.  Something as simple as this. Pressure is the result of an applied force.

Quote from: hoppy on November 22, 2014, 06:12:50 AM

It would only cost about $20.00 for a better scale that stays on for a few minutes.

It worked well enough. I don't need another scale.

Yap yap yap, you showed nothing. You showed a scale inside a chamber that was hard to read and decipher and whatever was on it was obscure. You didn't show the setting before you put it in - nothing.

Scales don't have settings. The check mass was of course the object on the scale, not that it matters.

You're a cheating git and if you're not then do the experiments when you have the time to do so by how I want you to set it up. Are you willing to do this?

You have the equipment, so this should be easy for you. If you come back with any response as to why you can't do it, then don't waste my time with your crap.

I can do it again, but the scale will still turn itself off. The outcome will still be the same. No change in weight.
[/quote]Are you willing to do the experiment under my stipulations?
I'll give you a rota in which to do things that lead up to an end result. Are you game for it?

Quote from: rottingroom on November 22, 2014, 06:23:44 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 22, 2014, 06:20:46 AM

Quote from: rottingroom on November 22, 2014, 06:18:36 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 22, 2014, 06:08:17 AM

Quote from: sokarul on November 22, 2014, 06:00:45 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 22, 2014, 05:52:50 AM

Quote from: sokarul on November 22, 2014, 05:41:32 AM

No response to the video?

Does it really merit a response?
What did you do? did you quickly set it up whilst your boss went out for a sandwich. You looked in one hell of a rush and your camera was all over the place.
It was a shit video to be honest.

If you have access to that without problems, then use it and do some experiments, starting off by showing me that scale from start to finish, in and out of the chamber.

True I didn't want people to see me, but the real reason if you noticed was the scale turns itself off. I couldn't even make it to the 20 inches of Hg.

I think the real reason you don't have a response is because it completely destroys denpressure.

Sorry, your words are meaningless. An opportunity to prove me wrong with the equipment at hand and probably all the items needed to go further and the best you can come up with, is this and then having scales shut down. It stinks and you know it.

Denpressure destroys gravity and until you directly prove otherwise by following my directions, then you're simply trying to cheat your way through it for whatever reasons you have.
If you had any truthful thought, you would do this stuff properly instead of jumping up and down saying you've destroyed my theory when you know fine well you haven't.

How do you suppose he cheated his way through it? You yourself said that it looks like he did it as quickly as he could while his boss went out for a sandwich. Wouldn't it take more time to prepare a deception? You can clearly see the scale in the machine, you can clearly see the pressure on the machine change and you can clearly see the weight on the scale not decrease.

If you think that shows any real evidence then carry on. If he wants to play it genuinely then he does it by my rules, then he has the clear right to call my theory wrong. Will he do it? let's see.

You can't possibly keep doing this. You don't seriously believe pressure will change somethings weight. It's so silly.

Of course it will change it's weight. Weight is the sole purpose of pressure. Weight is a man made measurement of pressure upon any object.
The fact is that not many people can allow themselves to think on it, which is why they can't understand what's being said, because gravity keeps creeping into their heads.

This was a succinct counter example to denpressure. Air pressure went down and the weight did the exact opposite of what denpressure predicts. Scepti, you are in a position where all you can do is call him a cheater always or show evidence that supports your position. Anything else at this point is just hand waving.

Just give me your most simple definition of pressure that you can. Not denpressure, just pressure.  Something as simple as this. Pressure is the result of an applied force.

Prerssure is the result of stacked matter/molecules or whatever name you want to give to that.

This was a succinct counter example to denpressure. Air pressure went down and the weight did the exact opposite of what denpressure predicts. Scepti, you are in a position where all you can do is call him a cheater always or show evidence that supports your position. Anything else at this point is just hand waving.

No, not at all. Whilst he is evacuating pressure, the pump is pushing that pressure away and out of that chamber. As long as that pump is on, the readings are useless. It must be evacuated to whatever it can be and shut off. This is when you will see the reality of what's happening.

If anyone else has access to a chamber and who can do this experiment and show it, then please try it.

Are you willing to do the experiment under my stipulations?
I'll give you a rota in which to do things that lead up to an end result. Are you game for it?[/b]

Post a procedure.

Quote from: Rama Set on November 22, 2014, 06:42:02 AM

This was a succinct counter example to denpressure. Air pressure went down and the weight did the exact opposite of what denpressure predicts. Scepti, you are in a position where all you can do is call him a cheater always or show evidence that supports your position. Anything else at this point is just hand waving.

No, not at all. Whilst he is evacuating pressure, the pump is pushing that pressure away and out of that chamber. As long as that pump is on, the readings are useless. It must be evacuated to whatever it can be and shut off. This is when you will see the reality of what's happening.

If anyone else has access to a chamber and who can do this experiment and show it, then please try it.

Oh, you want the pressure to equalize?  But why should the weight increase nominally when the pressure is being evacuated?

Quote from: rottingroom on November 22, 2014, 06:23:44 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 22, 2014, 06:20:46 AM

Quote from: rottingroom on November 22, 2014, 06:18:36 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 22, 2014, 06:08:17 AM

Quote from: sokarul on November 22, 2014, 06:00:45 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 22, 2014, 05:52:50 AM

Quote from: sokarul on November 22, 2014, 05:41:32 AM

No response to the video?

Does it really merit a response?
What did you do? did you quickly set it up whilst your boss went out for a sandwich. You looked in one hell of a rush and your camera was all over the place.
It was a shit video to be honest.

If you have access to that without problems, then use it and do some experiments, starting off by showing me that scale from start to finish, in and out of the chamber.

True I didn't want people to see me, but the real reason if you noticed was the scale turns itself off. I couldn't even make it to the 20 inches of Hg.

I think the real reason you don't have a response is because it completely destroys denpressure.

Sorry, your words are meaningless. An opportunity to prove me wrong with the equipment at hand and probably all the items needed to go further and the best you can come up with, is this and then having scales shut down. It stinks and you know it.

Denpressure destroys gravity and until you directly prove otherwise by following my directions, then you're simply trying to cheat your way through it for whatever reasons you have.
If you had any truthful thought, you would do this stuff properly instead of jumping up and down saying you've destroyed my theory when you know fine well you haven't.

How do you suppose he cheated his way through it? You yourself said that it looks like he did it as quickly as he could while his boss went out for a sandwich. Wouldn't it take more time to prepare a deception? You can clearly see the scale in the machine, you can clearly see the pressure on the machine change and you can clearly see the weight on the scale not decrease.

If you think that shows any real evidence then carry on. If he wants to play it genuinely then he does it by my rules, then he has the clear right to call my theory wrong. Will he do it? let's see.

You can't possibly keep doing this. You don't seriously believe pressure will change somethings weight. It's so silly.

Of course it will change it's weight. Weight is the sole purpose of pressure. Weight is a man made measurement of pressure upon any object.
The fact is that not many people can allow themselves to think on it, which is why they can't understand what's being said, because gravity keeps creeping into their heads.

This means that the weight of an item will change with the weather.

Quote from: Rama Set on November 22, 2014, 06:42:02 AM

This was a succinct counter example to denpressure. Air pressure went down and the weight did the exact opposite of what denpressure predicts. Scepti, you are in a position where all you can do is call him a cheater always or show evidence that supports your position. Anything else at this point is just hand waving.

No, not at all. Whilst he is evacuating pressure, the pump is pushing that pressure away and out of that chamber. As long as that pump is on, the readings are useless. It must be evacuated to whatever it can be and shut off. This is when you will see the reality of what's happening.

If anyone else has access to a chamber and who can do this experiment and show it, then please try it.

Why don't you do it in your lab and post the video?  You want people to believe that weight changes with air pressure (heh) then you prove it.

All you do is willy wave and play games.

Quote from: rottingroom on November 22, 2014, 06:37:45 AM

Just give me your most simple definition of pressure that you can. Not denpressure, just pressure.  Something as simple as this. Pressure is the result of an applied force.

Prerssure is the result of stacked matter/molecules or whatever name you want to give to that.

So we agree then that pressure is the result of something. It's an effect and not the cause. The difference, it appears, is that my definition suggests that pressure can be caused by any applied force while yours specifically says the cause is stacked matter.

Okay, so then naturally the follow up question is, what makes them stack instead of just being stationary/floating?

Also, say I come up to you and push you backward. Did I not apply pressure on you or did stacked matter do it?

Quote from: sokarul on November 22, 2014, 05:41:32 AM

No response to the video?

Does it really merit a response?
What did you do? did you quickly set it up whilst your boss went out for a sandwich. You looked in one hell of a rush and your camera was all over the place.
It was a shit video to be honest.

If you have access to that without problems, then use it and do some experiments, starting off by showing me that scale from start to finish, in and out of the chamber.

LOL... sceptimatic... forever the class clown!  It was actually a perfect visual example of why the vast majority of his make-believe ramblings are so hysterically funny.  All thanks to sokarul for talking the time and effort to post this video.

I'll now await the results of sceptimatic's own experiment, on video, that he's personally carried out to prove his own theory about this.

But I'll bet my left testicle that sceptimatic will not post such a video.  Not today, not tomorrow, not next week.  he's been caught out lying so many times on these forums is the reason I'm quite confident that I won't be speaking an octave higher next week.

So c'mon sceptimatic... put your money where your mouth is.  If you can.

Quote from: neimoka on November 21, 2014, 01:30:58 PM

I can't see why I'd be more likely to lose track if it was just one post, if it's split up there are distractions in between with other people posting on the topic, quotes tend to get lost when they get too long and so on, I must have skipped and forgotten half of the details and points of argument I've had on my mind during this exchange just because of this. So I'd prefer if it wasn't necessary to go step by step. I read books for fun, I think I can take one forum post - as long as it's concise, to the point and not by Sandokhan.

If you think that submerging an object in a measuring cup with fluid in it isn't descriptive of how much fluid an object displaces (!?) perhaps you could suggest another experiment?

I'm very interested in how pvc is special in this regard.

(density of polyvinyl chloride is well over 1 g/cm³, there is variance in products but generally it actually does sink)

Let me explain why it's important as to what you use and as to why a bucket isn't going to show you a true picture of displacement.
Ok, to start with, the iron sinks to the bottom of the bucket and obviously displaces the water.
The pvc won't sink so it won't displace as much. Now this is key, so keep this in mind as I move on.

Let's change the block to an iron block and a solid wood block of exactly the same size. Now you drop them in and they both fall to the bottom of the bucket and displace the same amount of water......but.....is that the whole story?

The answer is no. You see, the bottom of the bucket has stopped the objects from sinking any further because it's created a barrier. Now think about what I'm about to say, seriously.

To understand about mass and displacement in full you require super deep water to actually gauge displacement of water with any object.

For instance, let's get back to the iron and wooden block.
If you dropped them into a deep ocean, they would both sink....but, the iron block would continue to sink and the wooden block would stop sinking Why?
Because the wooden block still has trapped air inside of it and although the iron does, too, it's minute compared.
Because of this, it makes the wooden block more buoyant.

Now then, if we applied pressure to the wooden block to keep pushing it down to the same depth that the iron block was at, you would then see that it doesn't displace the same amount of water. Why?

Because it will be compressed into a smaller  block by the pressure of the water, meaning the water will squeeze out the trapped air inside of it.
To give you an example of what I'm telling you is to look at a submarine.
Now imagine building a submarine out of solid iron, including inside of it. Basically a solid block in the shape of a sub.
Now you also have a normal sub of exact size, filled with the usual atmospheric pressure.

You drop them in the water and the solid one sinks but you have to force the other one down.
As you force it down, it will implode. Basically all of the air will be forced out and your sub will be a lot smaller and displacing a lot less water by this time.

On land it works similar, except you are measuring a mass that is subject to the amount of atmospheric pressure it can repel - or to put it in displacement terms, how much of that mass displaces the air it's in which is why I used the sponge and lead block to show you that absorbtion of atmospheric pressure will render the sponge lightweight when measured, as opposed to the lead block that will absorb very little, which is why it's so dense and why that density is measured on scales due to atmospheric pressure upon its mass.

To put it simply, measuring scales are simply denpressure scales, because that's what everything is and all that can be measured. It is not the actual object in itself, but what that object pushes against, which is atmospheric pressure and the ground. Put a measuring scale in between and that's what it weighs.

No. Really, no.

• If you use high pressure or whatever force or method to compress let's just say a 100cm³ object by 1% to 99cm³, then it displaces 99cm³ of the fluid it's in - it still displaces an amount of fluid equal to it's own volume and not any other amount.
• What may or may not happen in some extreme conditions is irrelevant, displacement, stuff falling down etc happens right here in our normal conditions too. If compression of a solid object by minute change of ambient pressure is significant to give rise to these effects then the compression must be sufficiently significant to be measured in our normal conditions as well, and it is not.
• I said forget about sponges even before I said anything about pvc. Wood is slightly porous and usually contains a little air & water, we all know that. I mentioned pvc just as an example of a solid material significantly lighter than iron, it can be any metal or such that definitely contains no air and definitely does not compress noticeably when submerged in a couple cm of water or any other fluid.

I'm trying to pry your theory out of you in sufficient detail and clarity that it could be put to test. It almost looks like you don't want your theory to be tested, why is that? Give clear details on exactly what it does and what it doesn't do. You wrote:

So a 10cm³ block of plastic is going to displace the same amount of water as a 10 cm³ block of iron. Do you seriously believe this?

I seriously do believe this, and yes I can test it with reasonable accuracy as well. As I said, a 10 cm³ solid object displaces 10 cm³ of fluid when submerged in it absolutely independent of it's weight. As I understand your theory, the displacement should change proportionally to weight, since you've asserted that heavier objects displace more air(pressure). Is it worth my time doing this test? The vacuum chamber test with the scale was nice, it showed that the weight does not decrease, is repeatable and you focus your attention on hurried camera work? Seriously now. This is not a pr video from nasa, this is something ordinary people can actually do and see for themselves, isn't that what you've always wanted?

Another thing I suggested we could test would be this:

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 21, 2014, 12:03:14 PM

Quote from: neimoka on November 21, 2014, 11:06:10 AM

No, silly, I ofc meant measuring it directly. With a pressure transducer for an example, if I calibrate it to zero sitting on my desk by itself and then for an example place the sensor head
at surface of a massive object, should the pressure reading change? Or if I attach it to a massive object, so that the sensor head is more or less flush with the surface, should I then see a change in the reading?

Let's fly past this or we are going to end up right back to square one. Try not to add things in and let's keep it as simple as possible.

How's that? This is something we can measure and verify. But I don't know what the model predicts so the results wouldn't mean anything to me.

But I need to know what your model predicts, otherwise there's no point. Other tests can be deviced as well, but we need more and better information to do that meaningfully.

This means that the weight of an item will change with the weather.

Does a barometer change with the weather? if you think it does, then tell me wh6y it does.

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 22, 2014, 06:47:59 AM

Quote from: Rama Set on November 22, 2014, 06:42:02 AM

This was a succinct counter example to denpressure. Air pressure went down and the weight did the exact opposite of what denpressure predicts. Scepti, you are in a position where all you can do is call him a cheater always or show evidence that supports your position. Anything else at this point is just hand waving.

No, not at all. Whilst he is evacuating pressure, the pump is pushing that pressure away and out of that chamber. As long as that pump is on, the readings are useless. It must be evacuated to whatever it can be and shut off. This is when you will see the reality of what's happening.

If anyone else has access to a chamber and who can do this experiment and show it, then please try it.

Why don't you do it in your lab and post the video?  You want people to believe that weight changes with air pressure (heh) then you prove it.

All you do is willy wave and play games.

You can believe what you want to, I'm not interested what you believe. Sokarul had the means and opportunity to experiment and he goes and posts a complete load of crap like that which is typical or people like him.

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on November 22, 2014, 07:26:29 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 22, 2014, 06:47:59 AM

Quote from: Rama Set on November 22, 2014, 06:42:02 AM

This was a succinct counter example to denpressure. Air pressure went down and the weight did the exact opposite of what denpressure predicts. Scepti, you are in a position where all you can do is call him a cheater always or show evidence that supports your position. Anything else at this point is just hand waving.

No, not at all. Whilst he is evacuating pressure, the pump is pushing that pressure away and out of that chamber. As long as that pump is on, the readings are useless. It must be evacuated to whatever it can be and shut off. This is when you will see the reality of what's happening.

If anyone else has access to a chamber and who can do this experiment and show it, then please try it.

Why don't you do it in your lab and post the video?  You want people to believe that weight changes with air pressure (heh) then you prove it.

All you do is willy wave and play games.

You can believe what you want to, I'm not interested what you believe. Sokarul had the means and opportunity to experiment and he goes and posts a complete load of crap like that which is typical or people like him.

Even if you were to be granted that his experiment was crap (it wasn't) it is more than you have ever done to make your case.  You cannot even level decent criticism at the experiment.

So we agree then that pressure is the result of something. It's an effect and not the cause. The difference, it appears, is that my definition suggests that pressure can be caused by any applied force while yours specifically says the cause is stacked matter.

The effect of pressure is caused by an applied force. It's the force of stacked matter/molecules from bottom to top. Just like stacking people on top of each other - who is going to be under the most pressure. The one at the bottom or the one at the top?
Simple isn't it?

Okay, so then naturally the follow up question is, what makes them stack instead of just being stationary/floating?

Energy/agitation makes them stack, from the ground, pushing up. For instance, steam rises because molecules are agitated and expanded and are pushed above the denser more compressed molecules.
A simple analogy is to put some small rubber ball into a jar and pour sand on top of them.
The rubber balls are covered. If the jar remains still, they will stay covered. Let's call this cold water.
Now if you vibrate that jar, you will see that the smaller sand grains in their amount, will force up the rubber balls to the top and condense under them. Call this boiling water. Take that as as analogy and nothing else, because i'm trying to explain it in very simple terms.

Also, say I come up to you and push you backward. Did I not apply pressure on you or did stacked matter do it?

You are stacked matter. All you are is compressed matter. But, let's deal with the norm.

Your push is energy. You applied energy to me which forced me to move backwards.
Let's say I was laid on top of you (no kissing) and you used your energy to push me off. The pressure you are applying to me, I'm applying right back to you, until you break free of that pressure. You can only do this by exerting more energy against me than I can exert back onto you.

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 23, 2014, 05:34:12 AM

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on November 22, 2014, 07:26:29 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 22, 2014, 06:47:59 AM

Quote from: Rama Set on November 22, 2014, 06:42:02 AM

This was a succinct counter example to denpressure. Air pressure went down and the weight did the exact opposite of what denpressure predicts. Scepti, you are in a position where all you can do is call him a cheater always or show evidence that supports your position. Anything else at this point is just hand waving.

No, not at all. Whilst he is evacuating pressure, the pump is pushing that pressure away and out of that chamber. As long as that pump is on, the readings are useless. It must be evacuated to whatever it can be and shut off. This is when you will see the reality of what's happening.

If anyone else has access to a chamber and who can do this experiment and show it, then please try it.

Why don't you do it in your lab and post the video?  You want people to believe that weight changes with air pressure (heh) then you prove it.

All you do is willy wave and play games.

You can believe what you want to, I'm not interested what you believe. Sokarul had the means and opportunity to experiment and he goes and posts a complete load of crap like that which is typical or people like him.

Even if you were to be granted that his experiment was crap (it wasn't) it is more than you have ever done to make your case.  You cannot even level decent criticism at the experiment.

Well don't worry about it. Just accept what you feel you want to. I'm fine with it.

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on November 22, 2014, 07:26:29 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 22, 2014, 06:47:59 AM

Quote from: Rama Set on November 22, 2014, 06:42:02 AM

This was a succinct counter example to denpressure. Air pressure went down and the weight did the exact opposite of what denpressure predicts. Scepti, you are in a position where all you can do is call him a cheater always or show evidence that supports your position. Anything else at this point is just hand waving.

No, not at all. Whilst he is evacuating pressure, the pump is pushing that pressure away and out of that chamber. As long as that pump is on, the readings are useless. It must be evacuated to whatever it can be and shut off. This is when you will see the reality of what's happening.

If anyone else has access to a chamber and who can do this experiment and show it, then please try it.

Why don't you do it in your lab and post the video?  You want people to believe that weight changes with air pressure (heh) then you prove it.

All you do is willy wave and play games.

You can believe what you want to,

That's very kind of you, but completely ignored my question:

Why don't you do it in your lab and post the video?

Quote from: rottingroom on November 22, 2014, 08:04:12 AM

So we agree then that pressure is the result of something. It's an effect and not the cause. The difference, it appears, is that my definition suggests that pressure can be caused by any applied force while yours specifically says the cause is stacked matter.

The effect of pressure is caused by an applied force. It's the force of stacked matter/molecules from bottom to top. Just like stacking people on top of each other - who is going to be under the most pressure. The one at the bottom or the one at the top?

The one at the bottom, because of gravity.  Without gravity it wouldn't be under any pressure.

Now, as you don't believe in gravity, what makes the molecules at the bottom of the "stack" experience more pressure than the ones at the top?

Quote from: inquisitive on November 22, 2014, 06:54:14 AM

This means that the weight of an item will change with the weather.

Does a barometer change with the weather? if you think it does, then tell me wh6y it does.

As you know it measures atmospheric pressure, therefore, according to you, the measured weight of an object will change with changes in pressure.

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 23, 2014, 05:34:12 AM

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on November 22, 2014, 07:26:29 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 22, 2014, 06:47:59 AM

Quote from: Rama Set on November 22, 2014, 06:42:02 AM

This was a succinct counter example to denpressure. Air pressure went down and the weight did the exact opposite of what denpressure predicts. Scepti, you are in a position where all you can do is call him a cheater always or show evidence that supports your position. Anything else at this point is just hand waving.

No, not at all. Whilst he is evacuating pressure, the pump is pushing that pressure away and out of that chamber. As long as that pump is on, the readings are useless. It must be evacuated to whatever it can be and shut off. This is when you will see the reality of what's happening.

If anyone else has access to a chamber and who can do this experiment and show it, then please try it.

Why don't you do it in your lab and post the video?  You want people to believe that weight changes with air pressure (heh) then you prove it.

All you do is willy wave and play games.

You can believe what you want to,

That's very kind of you, but completely ignored my question:

Quote

Why don't you do it in your lab and post the video?

As I already told you.

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 23, 2014, 05:32:22 AM

Quote from: inquisitive on November 22, 2014, 06:54:14 AM

This means that the weight of an item will change with the weather.

Does a barometer change with the weather? if you think it does, then tell me wh6y it does.

As you know it measures atmospheric pressure, therefore, according to you, the measured weight of an object will change with changes in pressure.

Let's take a balloon that is marginally inflated and put it in a vacuum chamber.
That balloon expands to fill the void created by the evacuation of pressure.
That balloon still weighs the same inside of that chamber because it hasn't expanded against atmospheric external pressure, it expanded to simply fill a void.

Once you start to equalise the chamber, the balloon goes back to how it was, because the pressure is crushing those molecules back into the state they were by exerting pressure around that balloon.

Now think of this.

If you were to put a barometer or even a thermometer inside of a vacuum chamber and took a reading. What do you think will happen to those readings when pressure ie evacuated?
Remember, they both measure pressure, it's just that people don't usually understand what's happening.

Obviously you people do because you're all world/univeral scientists that know wverything about the universe, the world and otehr universes anywhere and everywhere. There's nothing that you people don't know. Infact, you people even know stuff that isn't even known yet. 

Thermometers do not measure pressure. Please note this.

Thermometers do not measure pressure. Please note this.

Yes they do. You just interpret it as temperature because of vibrating matter that expands and contracts. It's all high versus low pressure, so please note this.

Quote from: inquisitive on November 23, 2014, 06:00:42 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 23, 2014, 05:32:22 AM

Quote from: inquisitive on November 22, 2014, 06:54:14 AM

This means that the weight of an item will change with the weather.

Does a barometer change with the weather? if you think it does, then tell me wh6y it does.

As you know it measures atmospheric pressure, therefore, according to you, the measured weight of an object will change with changes in pressure.

Let's take a balloon that is marginally inflated and put it in a vacuum chamber.
That balloon expands to fill the void created by the evacuation of pressure.
That balloon still weighs the same inside of that chamber because it hasn't expanded against atmospheric external pressure, it expanded to simply fill a void.

Once you start to equalise the chamber, the balloon goes back to how it was, because the pressure is crushing those molecules back into the state they were by exerting pressure around that balloon.

Now think of this.

If you were to put a barometer or even a thermometer inside of a vacuum chamber and took a reading. What do you think will happen to those readings when pressure ie evacuated?
Remember, they both measure pressure, it's just that people don't usually understand what's happening.

Obviously you people do because you're all world/univeral scientists that know wverything about the universe, the world and otehr universes anywhere and everywhere. There's nothing that you people don't know. Infact, you people even know stuff that isn't even known yet. 

Stop the insecure diatribe. you were shown an objects whose weight did not change with pressure in the way you predict in fact it was the opposite of what you needed. Other than making a vague reference to the evacuation itself affecting the reading, all of your responses have been unfounded incredulity and personal attacks. I think everyone would appreciate your work speaking for itself for once.

The effect of pressure is caused by an applied force.

So again here you agree that pressure is the effect and not the cause. You realize of course that you are attempting to replace gravity right?

It's the force of stacked matter/molecules from bottom to top. Just like stacking people on top of each other - who is going to be under the most pressure. The one at the bottom or the one at the top?
Simple isn't it?

Just like stacking people on top of each other? So if I take a vacuum chamber and stack people on the side of the chamber, or perhaps the top then should they stick to the side and top respectively? Remember, you think that removing air from a chamber makes objects in the chamber weightless, so presumably if you could start sokural's experiment off by taping the scale to the top of his chamber, released all the air and then had some way of removing the tape while it was still in a vacuum, then the scale would just stay on the top? Is that really what you think?

Energy/agitation makes them stack, from the ground, pushing up. For instance, steam rises because molecules are agitated and expanded and are pushed above the denser more compressed molecules.
A simple analogy is to put some small rubber ball into a jar and pour sand on top of them.
The rubber balls are covered. If the jar remains still, they will stay covered. Let's call this cold water.
Now if you vibrate that jar, you will see that the smaller sand grains in their amount, will force up the rubber balls to the top and condense under them. Call this boiling water. Take that as as analogy and nothing else, because i'm trying to explain it in very simple terms.

Gravity can be considered a mechanism. The very first sentence in it's definition is concise. It says that it is "the force that attracts a body toward another body (center of earth)". This is a homerun really because 1. It says its a force (you've downgraded pressure into an effect because there is no way around that) and 2. It says it attracts, which is the mechanistic part of it. Now it sounds like you are trying to make energy/agitation into the mechanistic cause of your theory right. Okay, well for one, revise your theory so that becomes the star of your theory instead of pressure and two, explain what it is about energy/agitation that causes the downward motion. Down, down, down.... that part is really making no sense. Atmospheric pressure pushes things up, up, up!

Maybe you've heard of this simple experiment you can do it wish a cup, some water and a card:

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It looks to me like atmospheric pressure is pushing up.

You are stacked matter. All you are is compressed matter. But, let's deal with the norm.

Your push is energy. You applied energy to me which forced me to move backwards.
Let's say I was laid on top of you (no kissing) and you used your energy to push me off. The pressure you are applying to me, I'm applying right back to you, until you break free of that pressure. You can only do this by exerting more energy against me than I can exert back onto you.

So it seems very clear to me now that you have graduated from the pressure is the cause of things world and are fully realizing it is an effect. Something causes pressure. Energy. You are even spouting off one of Newton's Laws here. Congratulations.

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 23, 2014, 06:19:26 AM

Quote from: inquisitive on November 23, 2014, 06:00:42 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 23, 2014, 05:32:22 AM

Quote from: inquisitive on November 22, 2014, 06:54:14 AM

This means that the weight of an item will change with the weather.

Does a barometer change with the weather? if you think it does, then tell me wh6y it does.

As you know it measures atmospheric pressure, therefore, according to you, the measured weight of an object will change with changes in pressure.

Let's take a balloon that is marginally inflated and put it in a vacuum chamber.
That balloon expands to fill the void created by the evacuation of pressure.
That balloon still weighs the same inside of that chamber because it hasn't expanded against atmospheric external pressure, it expanded to simply fill a void.

Once you start to equalise the chamber, the balloon goes back to how it was, because the pressure is crushing those molecules back into the state they were by exerting pressure around that balloon.

Now think of this.

If you were to put a barometer or even a thermometer inside of a vacuum chamber and took a reading. What do you think will happen to those readings when pressure ie evacuated?
Remember, they both measure pressure, it's just that people don't usually understand what's happening.

Obviously you people do because you're all world/univeral scientists that know wverything about the universe, the world and otehr universes anywhere and everywhere. There's nothing that you people don't know. Infact, you people even know stuff that isn't even known yet. 

Stop the insecure diatribe. you were shown an objects whose weight did not change with pressure in the way you predict in fact it was the opposite of what you needed. Other than making a vague reference to the evacuation itself affecting the reading, all of your responses have been unfounded incredulity and personal attacks. I think everyone would appreciate your work speaking for itself for once.

Stop worrying youself about it all.

Quote from: sokarul on November 23, 2014, 07:01:41 AM

Thermometers do not measure pressure. Please note this.

Yes they do. You just interpret it as temperature because of vibrating matter that expands and contracts. It's all high versus low pressure, so please note this.

Yes, matter vibrates more when it is hotter. But as thermometers are in a closed system, they cannot measure pressure. The liquid inside expands as it gets hotter. It does not expand because outside pressure changed. So no, they don't measure pressure. Please note this. 

Quote from: sokarul on November 23, 2014, 07:01:41 AM

Thermometers do not measure pressure. Please note this.

Yes they do.